Author Topic: Red Notice - Bill Browder  (Read 11777 times)

John Hjorth

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Re: Red Notice - Bill Browder
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2018, 09:46:02 AM »
It's difficult in fellowship to analyze and discuss facts [as presented to us] based on your approach, Liberty. I'll just let it go.
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Liberty

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Re: Red Notice - Bill Browder
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2018, 10:48:08 AM »
It's difficult in fellowship to analyze and discuss facts [as presented to us] based on your approach, Liberty. I'll just let it go.

Browder's lawyer was tortured and killed because he helped uncover corruption (it was actually a $200m+ tax-refund scam that the Russian taxpayers paid for), Browder had to flee the country and abandon all he had built there. He successfully pushed for sanctions against the criminals responsible for the situation and many countries, after looking deeply at the facts, followed suit. Ever since, Russia has been going after Browder and trying to discredit him and get the sanctions removed. In that context, and the context of Russia being a severely corrupt mafia-like state that kills journalists, jails political opponents and controls tightly the media and judicial system, I'm sorry, but official Kremlin statements about Browder or the Magnitsky act don't have any credibility, and the fact that Russia is trying to use Interpol and other judicial means to reach a foreigner that stood up to it is scary af (including trying to make a deal with Trump to get Browder to Russia, a deal that Trump called 'incredible"). He'd never get a fair trial there. He's lucky he's a UK citizen now. I don't care that the BBC compressed their long statement into a short one, the BBC is not a propaganda mouthpiece.

Read Browder's book and see how the charges against him in russia and his trials came about, you'll see what kind of Godfather/Kafka crossover they're dealing with over there... I don't remember the exact details, but basically the police raided his offices, and later he learned that with some corporate documents they were able to do some stuff in the name of some of his companies in some remote part of russia, then they hired a lawyer in his name who went to court and pleaded guilty for him. Every time he's tried to show Russian authorities proof of what he discovered or his paper trail, they basically ignored him and in a country without a free judiciary, nobody's going to go after Putin and the oligarch. Crazy banana republic stuff.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 10:51:33 AM by Liberty »
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John Hjorth

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Re: Red Notice - Bill Browder
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2018, 11:52:48 AM »
Liberty, I already know all that posted by you in your last post here. What I actually want to discuss with you is what's going on right now, understood as facts now [now = today].

I could start it out?

[I still think the discussion is relevant for the book and has merit here in Books forum.]
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 11:58:40 AM by John Hjorth »
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Liberty

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Re: Red Notice - Bill Browder
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2018, 01:21:17 PM »
Go ahead, what would you like to add?
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Ballinvarosig Investors

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Re: Red Notice - Bill Browder
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2018, 01:47:43 PM »
Go ahead, what would you like to add?
Like Putin is a good guy, and everything you hear about him and his despotic regime is all propaganda? Magnitsky, Crimea, Donetsk, South Ossetia, Syria, Skripal, Litvinenko, Kara-Murza, the dozens of journalists killed in Russia, and numerous other minor Russian political opponents who have found themselves shot, disappeared, hanged mysteriously, thrown off buildings, etc. No doubt, all these things are Western fabrication, lies, propaganda.

Liberty, I think you were right the first time. The fact that Putin is fighting back so vociferously, it makes me think that maybe the politicians are actually doing something right for once.

John Hjorth

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Re: Red Notice - Bill Browder
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2018, 02:34:54 PM »
Go ahead, what would you like to add?

Liberty,

If you read the tweet by Mr. Browder, that you linked to earlier in this topic, it contains:

Quote
BREAKING: Russian government announces opening of a new criminal case against me and various US officials involved in the creation of the Magnitsky Act...

[My emphasis here.]

Mr. Browder uses the Russian website press release as source, and by logic, you don't see any basis in that press release as basis for Mr. Browder's tweet, for the part that I've emphasized.

So, my question here is:

What is this?

1. Mr. Browder takes the public Russian statement for more than what it is, by quoting it incorrectly in his tweet, thereby elaborating on it, with no real basis?,
or
2. Mr. Browder takes the public Russian statement as par, but is in possesion of further information, which he includes in his tweet, without adressing source?

In short: Who are those public US officials, that are involved in this new [<-?] case, mentioned in the aforementioned tweet by Mr. Browder, not mentioned in the Russian Press Release?
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Liberty

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Re: Red Notice - Bill Browder
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2018, 04:21:54 PM »
Go ahead, what would you like to add?

Liberty,

If you read the tweet by Mr. Browder, that you linked to earlier in this topic, it contains:

Quote
BREAKING: Russian government announces opening of a new criminal case against me and various US officials involved in the creation of the Magnitsky Act...

[My emphasis here.]

Mr. Browder uses the Russian website press release as source, and by logic, you don't see any basis in that press release as basis for Mr. Browder's tweet, for the part that I've emphasized.

So, my question here is:

What is this?

1. Mr. Browder takes the public Russian statement for more than what it is, by quoting it incorrectly in his tweet, thereby elaborating on it, with no real basis?,
or
2. Mr. Browder takes the public Russian statement as par, but is in possesion of further information, which he includes in his tweet, without adressing source?

In short: Who are those public US officials, that are involved in this new [<-?] case, mentioned in the aforementioned tweet by Mr. Browder, not mentioned in the Russian Press Release?

John, it seems like I had misread your earlier post. The way I read it, it sounded a bit like: "But also look at what the Russians are saying about Browder, please go read their side of the story" and "how can he make his tweet with the linked article" as in "he has no reason to complain, he's a criminal", which elicited my reaction of "they have zero credibility" (they could accuse him of killing Archduke Ferdinand, it wouldn't change anything to me...).

Now I understand what you meant, thanks for adding further explanation.

The twitter link that I sent is a thread. If you look down it, you'll see that Browder links to other articles including this one:

https://rg.ru/2018/07/17/rf-napravit-v-ssha-zapros-o-neobhodimosti-doprosa-eks-posla-makfola.html

Translated:

Quote
Kurennoj announced the list of Americans who want to interrogate Russian investigators. Among them three members of the US National Security Agency, to testify in court. "This signed under oath the same suit in a US court with the words Browder Todd Hyman is pick up the stolen materials of the criminal case of Russian Svetlana Engert and this tutelary Browder during his stay in the United States, Alexander Shvartsman," - listed the representative of the Prosecutor General.

Also on the list interests of the Russian investigation Americans David Kramer - in the recent past, an employee of the State Department, and Assistant Secretary of State, as well as Jonathan Winer - assistant to Senator Kerry, a member of the State Department, and Assistant Secretary of State. "Incidentally, he was the first lobbyist, who began to lobby for the interests of Browder from the staff of the Department of State," - said Kurennoj.

In addition, it is Kyle Parker, in 2009, a former employee of the US Helsinki Commission, and was an assistant to the then head of the Democratic Senator Cardin. "And, of course, these are the Ziff brothers - illegal income recipients, American financiers and, in effect, long-term partners in the criminal business of William Browder," - said the representative of the Prosecutor General's Office, adding that listed the names of the list is not exhaustive.

Putin is basically trying to go after those who put sanctions on his cronies, and he knows that even if he doesn't get them, he's creating a huge chilling effect by trying to scare other officials who might think about going after the Russian Mafia by making it known that he's going to try to reach them even outside of Russia (as he has done repeatedly to Browder).

Russia is not a normal state, yet the international community kinds of pretends that it is. So it's a bit like if the local crime boss was also a police officer, and when you displease him, he can put a warrant in your name and try to make your life hell through official-looking channels and charges, picking you up in a police car while wearing a uniform, etc...

But I'm also assuming that Browder as the main target, mentioned by name by Putin in Helsinki, has more information than just what is public. He might not always have a convenient article to link to with everything in it.

If you've read Browder's book, you know that Kyle Parker was instrumental in getting the sanctions against Russia turned into law, and now Putin is also going after him:

https://twitter.com/Billbrowder/status/1022829859859382272

More background here;

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/meet-the-capitol-hill-staffer-whos-in-putins-craw/

Quote
Boris Nemtsov, the Russian democracy leader who was murdered in 2015 (within sight of the Kremlin), called the Magnitsky Act “the most pro-Russian law ever enacted by a foreign government.” Putin and his network of cronies aggress against innocent Russians every day. The Magnitsky acts cramp those men’s style.

There's a podcast with Parker here:

https://ricochet.com/podcast/q-and-a/one-of-putins-wanted-the-excellent-kyle-parker/

And with Browder here:

https://ricochet.com/podcast/q-and-a/wanted-by-putin-whats-it-like-to-be-bill-browder/

In which he says that Russia has tried to pin multiple murders on him! Yes, they pretend he's a serial killer...
« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 04:14:31 AM by Liberty »
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Cigarbutt

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Re: Red Notice - Bill Browder
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2018, 05:29:29 PM »
An interesting message is that a sustained involvement with a solid and convincing story may be sufficient to get constructive pieces of legislation through democratic institutions.

From what I've read on this topic, it appears that Russia has put an incredible amount of resources to resist the passage of the Act and associated sanctions.

Another interesting aspect is that Natalia Veselnitskaya, the lawyer with ties to the apparatchiks, who, among many interesting roles, actively lobbied against the passage of the Magnitsky Act, was part of the (in)famous June 9th, 2016 meeting where 8 people were present and where (I would guess) there was more to discuss than international child adoption practices.

Then some say that War and Peace was too melodramatic. Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.

Jurgis

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Re: Red Notice - Bill Browder
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2018, 09:48:51 PM »
The twitter link that I sent is a thread. If you look down it, you'll see that Browder links to other articles including this one:

https://rg.ru/2018/07/17/rf-napravit-v-ssha-zapros-o-neobhodimosti-doprosa-eks-posla-makfola.html

Translated:

Quote
Kurennoj announced the list of Americans who want to interrogate Russian investigators. Among them three members of the US National Security Agency, to testify in court. "This signed under oath the same suit in a US court with the words Browder Todd Hyman is pick up the stolen materials of the criminal case of Russian Svetlana Engert and this tutelary Browder during his stay in the United States, Alexander Shvartsman," - listed the representative of the Prosecutor General.

Also on the list interests of the Russian investigation Americans David Kramer - in the recent past, an employee of the State Department, and Assistant Secretary of State, as well as Jonathan Winer - assistant to Senator Kerry, a member of the State Department, and Assistant Secretary of State. "Incidentally, he was the first lobbyist, who began to lobby for the interests of Browder from the staff of the Department of State," - said Kurennoj.

In addition, it is Kyle Parker, in 2009, a former employee of the US Helsinki Commission, and was an assistant to the then head of the Democratic Senator Cardin. "And, of course, these are the Ziff brothers - illegal income recipients, American financiers and, in effect, long-term partners in the criminal business of William Browder," - said the representative of the Prosecutor General's Office, adding that listed the names of the list is not exhaustive.

Putin is basically trying to go after those who put sanctions on his cronies, and he knows that even if he doesn't get them, he's creating a huge chilling effect by trying to scare other officials who might think about going after the Russian Mafia by making it known that he's going to try to reach them even outside of Russia (as he has done repeatedly to Browder).

Translation is rather crappy - I guess Google Translate? - but hopefully the meaning is somewhat understandable. Like Liberty says, Russians want to interrogate a number of Americans who they claim are connected to "Bill Browder case".
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dwy000

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Re: Red Notice - Bill Browder
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2018, 08:20:19 PM »
Loved the book too.

What I can't understand is how, as a country or a leader, you can object to the Act.  Unless you are corrupt or supporting those who are corrupt, what could you possibly object to?  Why would you rail against something punishing the corrupt?  The very fact that they find it so restrictive and oppressive suggests guilt.