Author Topic: Suck It Up Boys!  (Read 4695 times)

Parsad

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Suck It Up Boys!
« on: February 17, 2012, 11:19:41 AM »
I'm reading lots of stuff on the quartely report, and I think people are over-reacting immensely.  Bigger the catastrophe loss, the bigger the combined ratio, the better it is longer-term for companies like Berkshire and Fairfax. 

You have incredibly low interest rates right now, volatile equity markets and insurance premiums that were incredibly underpriced for several years.  We are now entering a real hard market and as both Berkshire and Fairfax start to write more and more well-priced business, the combined ratios will go down as the new policies kick in and the old policies start to run-off. 

Fairfax's combined ratios aren't high simply because of losses, but because they don't fire employees left, right and center when pricing is not good...so the the actual operating and administrative expenses is what piles onto the loss years.  When business improves, you will see very good combined ratios.  We've been here about three times in the last 12 years, and now the cycle is going the other way.  Patience, patience!

And if any of you were waxing poetic in the past about how Fairfax should stick to only insurance and forget about whole non-insurance businesses, that third leg of the revenue stool like Berkshire's is looking pretty good right now, isn't it! 

I've received a few emails and read some posts on the bonds and hedges.  Again, while Prem may want to disagree, as well as others on this board, in my opinion, the hedges are a necessity because of the leverage Fairfax uses.  Why doesn't Berkshire hedge?  Because Berkshire's got whole operating businesses that steady their cash flows, use less leverage and keep more cash.  If Fairfax operated at two and half times leverage, kept $4B in cash (or even more cash in just the subs) and had more non-insurance businesses, they would not have to hedge.  You get a 20% drop in Fairfax's investment portfolio (bonds and equities), you get a $5B loss in equity.  If you get a 50% loss just on the equity portfolio, you get a $1.5B hit to equity.  That percentage hit to equity will not happen at Berkshire!  So the quarterly gains/losses you see from the bonds and hedges is the cost of that leverage...which works pretty damn well long-term if you do it right like Prem!

Finally, outside of Berkshire, you've got the most ethical, honest, shareholder friendly CEO I know of.  Whose been pretty damn open with this particular group of shareholders on here, and will be sending a host of his executives and investee CEO's to our dinner.  He's been almost as good as Buffett in teaching us about insurance and investments, and his humble, cautious attitude toward business has made many people very wealthy, including himself. 

My opinion...short-term shareholders, sell your damn stock if you're worried...long-term shareholders, suck it up if you are concerned.  And as always, only invest as much as you feel comfortable with, so you can get a good nights sleep.  If you are greater than 10% in Fairfax, you better be sure you are comfortable with that risk, because Prem is making a bet on the bond side.  Controlling your own emotions is the biggest part of investing.  If it wasn't difficult, everyone would be rich and beating the market all the time.  Cheers!

 
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 11:21:32 AM by Parsad »
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Santayana

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Re: Suck It Up Boys!
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2012, 11:52:34 AM »
About 20% in Fairfax and feeling very comfortable with it.

cwericb

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Re: Suck It Up Boys!
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2012, 12:01:37 PM »
Bought a little more today @$390. Hope it will slide over the next few weeks so I can pick up some more. Remember the bumpy forecast and FFH sure looks awfully good when the markets tank.

Cardboard

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Re: Suck It Up Boys!
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2012, 01:03:27 PM »
I may get some flak for this, but this is simply not accurate:

"Fairfax's combined ratios aren't high simply because of losses, but because they don't fire employees left, right and center when pricing is not good...so the the actual operating and administrative expenses is what piles onto the loss years.  When business improves, you will see very good combined ratios."

They never had good combined ratios, other than in Asia. One only has to compare with Chubb's U.S. division that does commercial insurance and Crum & Forster. I did not see them terminating much people at all during this soft market and I bet you that their combined ratio will only get better with the hard market, by the way they are already well below 100%.

So on the underwriting side of the business, one has to admit that Fairfax is agressive. The primary goal is not to make an underwriting profit, but to have lots available for investment purposes. Anyway, after many years watching them and seeing results from many other in the industries, that is my conclusion.

Regarding the hedges, it supports my thesis above. Since they generally do not write profitable insurance business on its own, then something has to protect the downside from investments.

I guess that at the end of the day it is a balancing act. If you are too strict on the underwriting side, then you let go a lot of funds to invest. They have been pretty good at balancing that so far. However, there is a major problem IMO. If you look at how much money is invested in common stocks, associates, hedge funds, shorts and derivatives (or the stuff that should make big money), this amount is inferior to shareholders equity. And the income coming from cash and bonds is basically used to cover the shortfall from interest expense, corporate costs and underwriting losses.

So the structure is not really ideal vs say a hedge fund or even Berkshire Hathaway. For example, if you look at Berkshire Q3, they had $160 billion in common equity and about $220 billion invested in common stocks and non-insurance assets. So unless bonds keep going up in value which IMO is a macro bet or not unlike what a Ray Dalio would do, then someday results could be disappointing because they won't have enough into productive assets vs shareholders equity.

What they seem to be doing is keeping a lot in cash, bonds and derivatives to try to make another coup and then will switch over to more stocks which will solve the issue that I mentioned above. However, isn't some sort of market timing?

Cardboard
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 01:06:47 PM by Cardboard »

PlanMaestro

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Re: Suck It Up Boys!
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2012, 01:17:16 PM »
One only has to compare with Chubb's U.S. division that does commercial insurance and Crum & Forster. I did not see them terminating much people at all during this soft market and I bet you that their combined ratio will only get better with the hard market, by the way they are already well below 100%.

Does anyone have a spreadsheet with the historic CORs of individual P&C insurance companies?

Junto

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Re: Suck It Up Boys!
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2012, 01:32:49 PM »
I may get some flak for this, but this is simply not accurate:

"Fairfax's combined ratios aren't high simply because of losses, but because they don't fire employees left, right and center when pricing is not good...so the the actual operating and administrative expenses is what piles onto the loss years.  When business improves, you will see very good combined ratios."

They never had good combined ratios, other than in Asia. One only has to compare with Chubb's U.S. division that does commercial insurance and Crum & Forster. I did not see them terminating much people at all during this soft market and I bet you that their combined ratio will only get better with the hard market, by the way they are already well below 100%.

So on the underwriting side of the business, one has to admit that Fairfax is agressive. The primary goal is not to make an underwriting profit, but to have lots available for investment purposes. Anyway, after many years watching them and seeing results from many other in the industries, that is my conclusion.

Regarding the hedges, it supports my thesis above. Since they generally do not write profitable insurance business on its own, then something has to protect the downside from investments.

I guess that at the end of the day it is a balancing act. If you are too strict on the underwriting side, then you let go a lot of funds to invest. They have been pretty good at balancing that so far. However, there is a major problem IMO. If you look at how much money is invested in common stocks, associates, hedge funds, shorts and derivatives (or the stuff that should make big money), this amount is inferior to shareholders equity. And the income coming from cash and bonds is basically used to cover the shortfall from interest expense, corporate costs and underwriting losses.

So the structure is not really ideal vs say a hedge fund or even Berkshire Hathaway. For example, if you look at Berkshire Q3, they had $160 billion in common equity and about $220 billion invested in common stocks and non-insurance assets. So unless bonds keep going up in value which IMO is a macro bet or not unlike what a Ray Dalio would do, then someday results could be disappointing because they won't have enough into productive assets vs shareholders equity.

What they seem to be doing is keeping a lot in cash, bonds and derivatives to try to make another coup and then will switch over to more stocks which will solve the issue that I mentioned above. However, isn't some sort of market timing?

Cardboard

Cardboard I am with you. I have not invested because the combined ratios historically are not good and his whole operating basis is to earn a larger investment return on the float than his losses on the insurance business.
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DCG

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Re: Suck It Up Boys!
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2012, 02:18:23 PM »
Why not just hold cash/bonds instead of holding equities and hedging them if he is bearish? Long term record aside, their investment results have been very disappointing over the last several years.

Santayana

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Re: Suck It Up Boys!
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2012, 02:26:02 PM »
Flexibility around taxable gains and losses?

You might not like the investment results, but book value growth over the past 5 years has been great.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 02:49:03 PM by Santayana »

ubuy2wron

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Re: Suck It Up Boys!
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2012, 02:51:34 PM »
Flexibility around taxable gains and losses?
Plus have ya noticed some  corporate equities are yielding more than their debt. Also buying stocks and then hedging with the index is basically saying I can pick stocks I can ad alpha. If anyone can make this claim its Watsa Hamblin. As I have said before FFH is a hedge fund masquerading as an insurance company without the 2 and 20 vig and all partners locked in for ever. FFH is the perfect investment for scardy cat bulls right now. If the mkt is turning and about to get a lot harder then Prem will do just fine.  Now I am a shareholder again maybe I can make it to the annual meeting

valueInv

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Re: Suck It Up Boys!
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2012, 03:23:15 PM »
I am hoping it will fall further, I am looking to double my holdings. That said, I have my doubts about some of his tech picks.

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Re: Suck It Up Boys!
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2012, 03:23:15 PM »