Author Topic: Average Canadian richer than average american  (Read 3977 times)

shalab

  • Lifetime Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 950
Re: Average Canadian richer than average american
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2018, 09:51:32 PM »
My points are:

Canada is wealthier than the US - on median income and median wealth.
   - the usa government (and companies) are full of hubris, Canada is in a position to provide "aid" to usa
Canada doesn't welcome illegal migrants.
Given its wealth, Canada and its citizens can do more for illegal migrants.

Here is some more data,

usaid - the government agency that distributes aid, hires in Canada. A poorer country by average income and average net worth providing "aid" to a richer country. One of the goals of this agency is to expand "American values"

https://www.linkedin.com/company/usaid-canada
https://www.usaid.gov/careers

To make things more interesting, usaid was also distributing aid in Canada. In 2017, it gave 28 million dollars in "aid" to Canada.

https://explorer.usaid.gov/aid-dashboard.html#2017

Companies like MSFT hire from Canada as they would in the US.

https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/cdndevs/2015/09/22/student-jobs-at-microsoft-faq/

And then there is the quora post:

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Canadians-leave-Canada-and-move-to-the-US

You are right that it is easier to immigrate from Canada to USA than the other way round. (for both legal and illegal). Canada has laxer rules for legal immigration from some countries. For illegal immigrants, it seems really hard to get in.

I also looked at the option of getting Canadian Greencard but it wasn't straight forward. I could go as a skilled person or an investor. In addition, one doesn't get social security automatically.

Why Canada is richer than US? I think there are several reasons:

      - real estate is more expensive, even in small towns, I found real estate more expensive than the US.
              e.g:, this city near Banff national park, https://www.royallepage.ca/en/bc/golden/properties/
                      nova scotia - https://www.point2homes.com/CA/Real-Estate-Listings/NS.html
      - very little spending on military
      - cheap education
      - almost treated like citizens in USA with similar benefits
      - special nafta visa for employment in USA that is very easy to get
      - many(most?) college grads end up in the USA for work
From what you write it seems like you have no idea what you're talking about.
Is there point you're trying to arrive at?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 09:56:36 PM by shalab »


rb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2383
Re: Average Canadian richer than average american
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2018, 10:04:07 PM »
Our pension plans are all in way way way way better shape than pensions plans in the US. Your pension plans are basically large unfunded liabilities. I'm not one for beating up on the US but honestly this is one place where I think Canadians are far better off and where our leaders have mostly done the right thing in huge contrast to the US.
+1. CPP is an exceptional success story! Surprisingly it is a clone of some union's work. CPPIB is part of what I like to call professional government. Where you leave politics out of things and you run things professionally for the people. In Canada we have implemented this approach in several areas to great success and I would like to see more of it.

One thing in particular I like aside from the performance of the CPPIB team is the segregation fact where it's obvious how much money there is. Thus as CPPIB continues to perform and the coffers fill the government can't obfuscate behind a veil of bullshit. They'll have to lower payroll taxes or increase CPP payout. I favour increased payout btw.

One other particular area I'd like this to be applied is health insurance. I'd like health taxes to be segregated from general revenue and handled like CPP. When you think about it health insurance is not that different that life insurance (pensions).

Lastly, it's worth mentioning that our retirement system was a complete basket case similar to the US 2 decades ago when the government decided to reform it. Basically retirements are not a lost cause - mission impossible style. Your governments just have to get off their ass and do the right thing.

rb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2383
Re: Average Canadian richer than average american
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2018, 10:57:11 PM »
My points are:

Canada is wealthier than the US - on median income and median wealth.
   - the usa government (and companies) are full of hubris, Canada is in a position to provide "aid" to usa
Canada doesn't welcome illegal migrants.
Given its wealth, Canada and its citizens can do more for illegal migrants.
Ok, well I don't see what Microsoft's recruiting practices have to do with any of that. But let's put that aside for now.

Firstly, your use of statistics is wrong. Canada is not a wealthier country than the US. The US is in aggregate wealthier than Canada. Median wealth and income are merely just one measure of the distribution of that wealth and income. What you're effectively saying is we have more money that you guys, but because you guys have less income inequality you should contribute more because we don't wanna bother our rich folks. In addition as others have pointed here wealth statistics are distorted by a bunch of things and should not be taken at face value.

Secondly, Canada doing something for illegal immigrants is an oxymoron. A government exists for the purpose of the enforcement of laws. No legitimate government will stand for or encourage the violation of its laws. So Canada cannot actually encourage illegal migration.

Thirdly, migrations do actually happen for reasons outside of a country's control. This is why we have asylum and refugee programs. In those areas Canada punches above its weight and above the US. This is despite the Unites States' larger income and wealth. If the US was to proportionally take in as many refugees and asylum seekers as Canada, the US should take in 300,000-450,000 per year. That number is greater than the US's refugee quota plus the illegal immigration into the US. So I'd say that Canada does enough.

Cigarbutt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 890
Re: Average Canadian richer than average american
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2018, 07:07:25 AM »
My points are:

Canada is wealthier than the US - on median income and median wealth.
   - the usa government (and companies) are full of hubris, Canada is in a position to provide "aid" to usa
Canada doesn't welcome illegal migrants.
Given its wealth, Canada and its citizens can do more for illegal migrants.

Firstly, ...
Secondly, ...
Thirdly, migrations do actually happen for reasons outside of a country's control. This is why we have asylum and refugee programs. In those areas Canada punches above its weight and above the US. This is despite the Unites States' larger income and wealth. If the US was to proportionally take in as many refugees and asylum seekers as Canada, the US should take in 300,000-450,000 per year. That number is greater than the US's refugee quota plus the illegal immigration into the US. So I'd say that Canada does enough.

First, asking shalab to clarify the premises was useful.

I agree with most of what you say but would like to add the following.

The number of refugees coming in varies from year to year and the numbers you chose do not reflect the reality over the years. Also, even if felt to be more "compassionate", the process is long, complex and can end up with deportation.

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/03/01/canada-vastly-unprepared-to-process-migrants-and-refugees.html

Numbers are imprecise but estimates show that the number of illegal immigrants in Canada is about 1% that of the US. With hard-line policies being promoted south of the border, I can tell you how disruptive the process can become at the border and after. Illegal immigration is a tough problem but, in relative terms, Canada has been a spectator and I hope that the US can come up with some kind of constructive compromise as there must be room between a wall and open borders. Some problems have a tendency to persist when not dealt with.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 07:22:29 AM by Cigarbutt »

Cigarbutt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 890
Re: Average Canadian richer than average american
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2018, 07:34:52 AM »
Our pension plans are all in way way way way better shape than pensions plans in the US. Your pension plans are basically large unfunded liabilities. I'm not one for beating up on the US but honestly this is one place where I think Canadians are far better off and where our leaders have mostly done the right thing in huge contrast to the US.
+1. CPP is an exceptional success story! Surprisingly it is a clone of some union's work. CPPIB is part of what I like to call professional government. Where you leave politics out of things and you run things professionally for the people. In Canada we have implemented this approach in several areas to great success and I would like to see more of it.

One thing in particular I like aside from the performance of the CPPIB team is the segregation fact where it's obvious how much money there is. Thus as CPPIB continues to perform and the coffers fill the government can't obfuscate behind a veil of bullshit. They'll have to lower payroll taxes or increase CPP payout. I favour increased payout btw.

One other particular area I'd like this to be applied is health insurance. I'd like health taxes to be segregated from general revenue and handled like CPP. When you think about it health insurance is not that different that life insurance (pensions).

Lastly, it's worth mentioning that our retirement system was a complete basket case similar to the US 2 decades ago when the government decided to reform it. Basically retirements are not a lost cause - mission impossible style. Your governments just have to get off their ass and do the right thing.

Short version:

For the CPP part, Canada is slightly ahead but in the grand scheme of the underfunded retirement liabilities, this will be a marathon and we've barely scratched the surface.

Long version:

It is true that the CPP program was improved, starting in the 1980's, through a collaborative effort. Interesting to remember that the concerted effort involved many steps including setting aside funds and incorporating an arm's length aim at improved returns but also included policies to increase immigration with a priority to young independent immigrants.

In many countries, retirement liabilities are significantly underfunded and the challenge is set to increase.

Reference:
http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_White_Paper_We_Will_Live_to_100.pdf
Figure 4 on page 7 summarizes well.

"Steady-state" funding for CPP or not, developing and developed countries will need a lot of "bipartisan" compromises to meet presently unrealistic objectives and to prevent funds set aside to be used for "general government purposes". And, proportionally, Canada is in the same kicking the can down the road scheme.

I think it is reasonable to expect: increasing retirement age, increasing contributions and decreasing benefits. And for the people participating on this Board, it is reasonable to expect zero retirement contribution fom public sources.

In this era of polarization, also interesting to see how global financial literacy may be lacking. From the reference (p.5):
"Levels of financial literacy are very low worldwide. This represents a threat to pension systems which are more selfdirected and which rely more on private savings in addition to employer- or government-provided savings. Research indicates that most people are not able to answer questions on basic financial concepts. This is increasingly important in pension systems that require individuals to make key decisions. The lack of awareness of the basics on how interest and returns will compound over time, how inflation will impact savings, and the benefits of holding a broad selection of assets to diversify risks means that many individuals are ill-equipped to manage their own pension savings."

More specifically on this literacy question, there was a report recently published dealing with many interesting aspects of household finances including literacy (relevant section pages 55-58):
https://www.scribd.com/document/381804906/2017-Report-Economic-Well-Being-Us-Households-201805#from_embed

If you remove the good answers provided by those who answered the five basic questions right, one has a better understanding as to how this growing problem has been ignored and how painful it will be when recognized (probably forcibly).

Not mission impossible but some headwinds expected. We may eventually find out that we were collectively poorer than we thought we were.
Definition of shortfall: a deficit of something required or expected.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 07:41:13 AM by Cigarbutt »

shalab

  • Lifetime Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 950
Re: Average Canadian richer than average american
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2018, 10:18:26 AM »
Median wealth is the right indicator - how is the person in the 50th percentile doing. Aggregate wealth is misleading as the USA will still come out ahead at 1/5th the median Canadian income and wealth.

Regarding Canada doing its "fair share", I don't think it is for illegals. I think it is cruel for a government to deport people who lost toes to frost bite to get into your country. Why  In the USA, the estimate is that there are ~10 million people that are illegal. Canada's share of this would be about a million.

Looking at this graph of where people to Canada are coming from, it under represents people from South America and Africa, especially Mexico. Why is that?

https://capitalnews.ca/coming-to-canada/project/coming-going/

My points are:

Canada is wealthier than the US - on median income and median wealth.
   - the usa government (and companies) are full of hubris, Canada is in a position to provide "aid" to usa
Canada doesn't welcome illegal migrants.
Given its wealth, Canada and its citizens can do more for illegal migrants.
Ok, well I don't see what Microsoft's recruiting practices have to do with any of that. But let's put that aside for now.

Firstly, your use of statistics is wrong. Canada is not a wealthier country than the US. The US is in aggregate wealthier than Canada. Median wealth and income are merely just one measure of the distribution of that wealth and income. What you're effectively saying is we have more money that you guys, but because you guys have less income inequality you should contribute more because we don't wanna bother our rich folks. In addition as others have pointed here wealth statistics are distorted by a bunch of things and should not be taken at face value.

Secondly, Canada doing something for illegal immigrants is an oxymoron. A government exists for the purpose of the enforcement of laws. No legitimate government will stand for or encourage the violation of its laws. So Canada cannot actually encourage illegal migration.

Thirdly, migrations do actually happen for reasons outside of a country's control. This is why we have asylum and refugee programs. In those areas Canada punches above its weight and above the US. This is despite the Unites States' larger income and wealth. If the US was to proportionally take in as many refugees and asylum seekers as Canada, the US should take in 300,000-450,000 per year. That number is greater than the US's refugee quota plus the illegal immigration into the US. So I'd say that Canada does enough.

DTEJD1997

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1330
Re: Average Canadian richer than average american
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2018, 11:38:18 AM »
Hey all:

I would not be surprised at all if the AVERAGE Canadian is better off than their American counterpart.

I simply marvel at how modern, clean and prosperous Windsor Ontario looks.  I have not been there for quite a while, but I frequently see it when I go downtown, especially to the main post office.

There is also another interesting observation that I have...

3-4 years ago I knew some young Canadians (mainly from Windsor area).  They were ALL bitterly complaining about how bad the economic situation was for them.  They would come over to Detroit and would try and work "under the table", would look for legitimate jobs, and would run all sorts of hustles.  For example, they would buy cigarettes, LCD TV's, computers, and expensive consumer items to resell on Kijiji (sp?)  They would also stuff their cars full of food items. 

One dude even went so far as to wear 2 pairs of pants and several shirts (that he bought in MI) when crossing the border.

I always joked with these guys that if they are coming to Detroit for work...things must be catastrophically bad in Canada.

So could it be that if you are ESTABLISHED and have a job/experience/wealth, things are generally pretty good for you in Canada?

If you are young, fresh out of university, and have no job/experience/wealth, things are pretty tough for you in Canada?

augustabound

  • Lifetime Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 938
Re: Average Canadian richer than average american
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2018, 01:19:28 PM »
I simply marvel at how modern, clean and prosperous Windsor Ontario looks.

Are you sure you're talking about Windsor, Ontario??? I grew up in the Greater Toronto Area and we avoid Windsor.  I used to subcontract for a friend and had some service calls there a few times, general retail renovations in malls and power centres. (maybe 5-8 years ago)

We found Windsor the opposite of what you describe.
"Serenity now, insanity later." - Lloyd Braun

augustabound

  • Lifetime Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 938
Re: Average Canadian richer than average american
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2018, 01:20:27 PM »
I think it is cruel for a government to deport people who lost toes to frost bite to get into your country.

Who's losing toes getting in to Canada? 
"Serenity now, insanity later." - Lloyd Braun

rb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2383
Re: Average Canadian richer than average american
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2018, 01:52:46 PM »
Short version:

For the CPP part, Canada is slightly ahead but in the grand scheme of the underfunded retirement liabilities, this will be a marathon and we've barely scratched the surface.

Long version:

It is true that the CPP program was improved, starting in the 1980's, through a collaborative effort. Interesting to remember that the concerted effort involved many steps including setting aside funds and incorporating an arm's length aim at improved returns but also included policies to increase immigration with a priority to young independent immigrants.

....

In many countries, retirement liabilities are significantly underfunded and the challenge is set to increase.

Reference:
http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_White_Paper_We_Will_Live_to_100.pdf
Figure 4 on page 7 summarizes well.

"Steady-state" funding for CPP or not, developing and developed countries will need a lot of "bipartisan" compromises to meet presently unrealistic objectives and to prevent funds set aside to be used for "general government purposes". And, proportionally, Canada is in the same kicking the can down the road scheme.

I think it is reasonable to expect: increasing retirement age, increasing contributions and decreasing benefits. And for the people participating on this Board, it is reasonable to expect zero retirement contribution fom public sources.
This is nonsense from the point of CPP and Canada. You can see that with some simple excel modelling.

Let's look at a simplified example that can be sketched easily. Maximum CPP. CPP deposits and payout get indexed with inflation. Let's assume that inflation will be 2% over the period.

In order to get max CPP you need to contribute the max for 40 years. Currently max contribution is $5,128. Current max payout is $1,134 per month, or $13,608 per year. In 40 Years max payout will be $30,047 per year. Current blended life expectancy at 65 is 20 years. In 40 years you'll maybe get 4 years more. So lets assume life expectancy at 65 in 40 years is 24 years.

The breakeven rate of return to make all of this possible is 3.9% per year*. CPPIB's 10 year rate of return was 8%. Is there anything unattainable in all this that requires great sacrifices to be made in order to keep the system going? What will happen in actuality is CPPIB keeps up the good work is that CPP will need to increase payout or cut contributions.

* The breakeven rake actually will have to be somewhat higher than that because CPP is tasked with paying some other benefits than just CPP pension. But not substantially higher. Again this was a stylized model. I didn't really feel like building a full actuarial model for a post.