Author Topic: Canadian tariffs  (Read 5191 times)

Spekulatius

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Re: Canadian tariffs
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2018, 04:16:28 AM »
A lot of countries see agriculture like a strategic asset to ensure a safe domestic supply. I know that Germany sees it that way. Where some countries and the EU goe wrong is that they subside exports of agricultural goods.There, the argument of a strategic assets does not hold any more.

FWIW, the US has a lot of subsidies for farmers, both direct and indirect as well.
To be a realist, one has to believe in miracles.


Cigarbutt

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Re: Canadian tariffs
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2018, 05:53:10 AM »
https://farm.ewg.org/progdetail.php?fips=00000&progcode=totalfarm&page=states&regionname=theUnitedStates

A picture that shows:
-significance of subsidies
-unequal distribution of subsidies (states)
-how the issue of agricultural free trade will be contentious as it has a significant political component (election results map)

Most of the subsidies go to large farm corporations who are heavily involved in exports and who are also involved in lobbying.

One of the reasons why this is the case is that the general population do not "see" the unnecessary price tag associated with the support that parts of the agricultural sector gets. The conveyed message is in fact quite different.

What would you do if you were an elected official?

Potentially biased opinion: NAFTA has been a win-win overall.
The 1988 Canadian federal election was mostly based on NAFTA. The conservatives who supported NAFTA obtained 43% of the votes and formed the government. The two opposition parties who opposed the agreement gathered 52% of the votes.
Democracies can function but sometimes it's complicated.


EliG

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Re: Canadian tariffs
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2018, 06:37:04 AM »
Trade-weighted tariffs, G7 countries, World Bank data

Canada has the lowest tariffs among G7 counties. The U.S. is no better than the EU.




scorpioncapital

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Re: Canadian tariffs
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2018, 03:49:50 PM »
All I know is there's a scam going on...the price of food seems to be connected with the income power of the people to buy it. This means the same item of food can be sold cheaper, it's just for some reason in some countries they just don't want to.


cobafdek

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Re: Canadian tariffs
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2018, 04:40:48 PM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2018/06/11/why-trudeau-doesnt-have-the-high-ground-on-trade/?utm_term=.501b63fbca70

I've never heard of JJ McCullough before, and I'm strictly an amateur on trade policy, but I'm sure some of the Canadians know him.  Is this piece a predictable output based on his past opinions and ideology, or is he presenting the facts fairly?

doc75

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Re: Canadian tariffs
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2018, 05:10:35 PM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2018/06/11/why-trudeau-doesnt-have-the-high-ground-on-trade/?utm_term=.501b63fbca70

I've never heard of JJ McCullough before, and I'm strictly an amateur on trade policy, but I'm sure some of the Canadians know him.  Is this piece a predictable output based on his past opinions and ideology, or is he presenting the facts fairly?

I see nothing unfair in his presentation.

I think a major problem here is that even when Trump gets his facts right, he cherry picks to such a degree that any sense of scale is lost. 
I'm sure the Canadian negotiators don't try to pretend the dairy tariffs aren't there.  The US has their own subsidies.  Surely for a successful relationship, there must be an understanding that both sides will have their quirks, and the end focus has to be on aggregate numbers.

Strange times.  I hope the cooler heads behind the scenes prevail (on all sides).

EliG

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Re: Canadian tariffs
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2018, 05:22:01 PM »
is he presenting the facts fairly?

Yes and No.

Yes, Canadian dairy tariffs are bullshit. Yes, Canada should dismantle them.

No, dairy tariffs are not the major stumbling block in NAFTA negotiations. It's a fairly small item in the grand scheme of things. Trump keeps talking about this issue to put Trudeau on defense.

rb

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Re: Canadian tariffs
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2018, 11:05:50 PM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2018/06/11/why-trudeau-doesnt-have-the-high-ground-on-trade/?utm_term=.501b63fbca70

I've never heard of JJ McCullough before, and I'm strictly an amateur on trade policy, but I'm sure some of the Canadians know him.  Is this piece a predictable output based on his past opinions and ideology, or is he presenting the facts fairly?
To answer your question, no he's not anyone of importance. He's a cartoonist who likes to chime in on politics. I don't think he's presenting facts fairly but instead he's presenting his opinion and ideology. Take this little tidbit:

Quote
The wisdom of the dairy tariffs is a source of debate and second-guessing in Canada, and we can’t take for granted that voters will stand foursquare behind Prime Minister Justin Trudeau as he insists that dairy protectionism is something he’s “100 percent” ready to defend.

Ok, so who will the voters stand behind then? The leaders of all three majour parties unequivocally support supply management.

Or this little bit:

Quote
To call this a minor triviality of Canadian life is to ignore one of the country’s highest-profile policy debates of the past half-decade. In 2012, centrist Liberal politician Martha Hall Findlay provoked the conversation by running for her party’s leadership on what was a mostly one-issue campaign to abolish dairy tariffs.

Nope, that wasn't even close to one of the country's higher profile debates. I guess maybe it would break the top 50 on a slow news day. Oh, also there are not hoards of Canadians crossing the boarder every day in a desperate hope to save $1.49 on dairy.

Now ignoring this fool let's take a closer look at the facts.

Canada has supply management. We restrict production of certain ag goods (dairly, eggs, poultry) which results in higher prices for Canadians. This is mostly a private matter. The US has massive farm subsidies. In fact the US subsidies for dairy are larger than the profits of the dairy sector. So the US is basically straight up dumping dairy.

So when Canada and the US got to talking NAFTA, Canada didn't much care for scrapping supply management and we sure weren't gonna let the US dump dairy. The US didn't really want to cut farm subsidies to dairies either. So we agreed to side pocket this bit.  We get to keep supply management and the US gets to keep its subsidies. In order to prevent dumping, Canada will get to impose tariffs to prevent US dumping. It was all good because the trade relationship is so deep and broad that dairy is just a speck of dust on the windshield. This is how responsible adults do things. Also these provisions were codified into law.

Now for the boring bits. Every free trade agreement of the face of the planet contains a "national security" loop hole. You must keep in mind that free trade agreements are usually ratified by parliament (also in the case of the US). So they are actually laws in their countries. But the national security loophole generally allows the executive to go around them for the obvious reasons for national security. Now it was laughable when it was presented that Canadian steel and aluminium present a threat to the national security of the United States. But imposing steel and aluminium tariffs against Canada for Canadian dairy tariffs under national security is illegal. Unless of course we are egging the US's national security.

But of course none of this matters. Furthermore, The Donald of course doesn't give a hoot about dairies. He's just found a little loose piece of string he can pull at to create the discord that he relishes. He probably thinks that he can tweet Canada into submission. But Canada isn't Rosie O'Donell. Also Canada doesn't conduct foreign and economic policy via twitter.

Cardboard

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Re: Canadian tariffs
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2018, 05:55:57 AM »
"But Canada isn't Rosie O'Donell. Also Canada doesn't conduct foreign and economic policy via twitter."

Can't tell you exactly what Canada is but, I am certain of this, we are as close as it gets to beggars relative to the U.S.

Regarding foreign and economic policy it is mostly about PeopleKind and apologizing.

Trudeau has been unbelievably weak in his handling of TransMountain (which is one element to help fix this dependency on the U.S.). Now he has to do a trade deal with a country (politicians) completely out of his control from a position of weakness. Good luck! He seems to act like the global community will fix it for him because we are polite... LOL!

Regarding this supply management stupidity that some farmers and groups impose on our citizens to enrich themselves, it must go! This is not a choice from Canadian people.

Moreover, if you believe that this protects the small farmers you are naive or unaware of what is going on. Quotas have become so expensive, that the only rational decision for a small farmer is to sell the farm to a large operator: annual return vs at risk capital (at market) is in the low single digits.

Then if the family wants to retain the farm (still stable income and if they like this work), it creates very large internal issues. It is near impossible for a kid to acquire the farm without significant parental help which typically leads to family fights over money: one gets it all.

Cardboard

Spekulatius

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Re: Canadian tariffs
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2018, 07:17:09 PM »
^ You always have a choice, Peter.
To be a realist, one has to believe in miracles.