Author Topic: Canadian tariffs  (Read 7102 times)

rb

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Re: Canadian tariffs
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2018, 08:14:42 PM »
Well you can call it propaganda. But the EU overproduces and the US over produces. I can't say definitely about the rest but what I've called there is at least 1/2 of global supply.

Nevertheless, you've started this thread about Canadian tariffs. They are totally justified against a trading partner that wants to seriously dump in your market. Whether we keep or don't keep supply management is an internal matter that has nothing to do with dairy tariffs or trade.

Maybe you want to start a thread called "I want to bitch about Canadian Supply Management" .


scorpioncapital

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Re: Canadian tariffs
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2018, 11:25:32 PM »
Tariffs are being used by Trump to dismantle welfare, socialist states - to attack them globally. It is just a pretense. Those who are discussing and debating tariffs  and protectionism (including economists) are perhaps missing the entire point. I laugh when I read articles about how Canada is indignant at the national security reason..it has nothing to do with national security...or tariffs for that matter.


doc75

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Re: Canadian tariffs
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2018, 04:50:13 AM »
I laugh when I read articles about how Canada is indignant at the national security reason..it has nothing to do with national security...or tariffs for that matter.

They're insulted by the national security reason precisely because they realize it's a pretence!

Cardboard

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Re: Canadian tariffs
« Reply #53 on: June 19, 2018, 05:00:52 AM »
"Well you can call it propaganda. But the EU overproduces and the US over produces. I can't say definitely about the rest but what I've called there is at least 1/2 of global supply.

Nevertheless, you've started this thread about Canadian tariffs. They are totally justified against a trading partner that wants to seriously dump in your market. Whether we keep or don't keep supply management is an internal matter that has nothing to do with dairy tariffs or trade.

Maybe you want to start a thread called "I want to bitch about Canadian Supply Management" ."

Supply management is wrong no matter how you cut it. I am actually very happy that Trump indirectly brought this issue forward as many Canadians are now getting aware of how they are being ripped-off.

And if there is so much over-production, from so many places, then why the fear of "running" out of milk?

You actually do really sound like Trump regarding this issue. Soon enough are you going to tell us that if our country does not produce milk that we don't have a country?

Cardboard

Sharad

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Re: Canadian tariffs
« Reply #54 on: June 19, 2018, 09:16:25 AM »
"On dairy specifically. Dairy is one of those industries prone to overproduce and destroy themselves. Countries deal with this in different ways. Canada uses supply management. The US uses huge subsidies. In fact the whole US dairy industry produces at a loss. The only thing that keeps it going are huge subsidies. Canada does not subsidies producers."

This is totally false and propaganda from dairy farmers. Same from chicken farmers or the meat that anyone in poor countries produce in their own backyards! Cheapest meat on Earth and a chicken breast sells for the same price as steak in many grocery stores in Canada!

Canadians do provide an enormous subsidy to farmers by paying double the price of the normal price for the product at the grocery store. That is the cost of supply management which gives guaranteed pricing to producers no matter what. No cyclicality. Wonderful cartel.

If you guys want to block American dairy from coming in, fine. However, supply management must go.

Cardboard

Saputo agrees with you (as do I):

https://globalnews.ca/news/4281520/canadian-dairy-saputo-inc-pricing-system-us/
"If we are not able to ask skeptical questions, to interrogate those who tell us that something is true, to be skeptical of those in authority, then we are up for grabs for the next charlatan - political or religious - who comes ambling along."
- Carl Sagan

doc75

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Re: Canadian tariffs
« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2018, 09:28:53 AM »
"On dairy specifically. Dairy is one of those industries prone to overproduce and destroy themselves. Countries deal with this in different ways. Canada uses supply management. The US uses huge subsidies. In fact the whole US dairy industry produces at a loss. The only thing that keeps it going are huge subsidies. Canada does not subsidies producers."

This is totally false and propaganda from dairy farmers. Same from chicken farmers or the meat that anyone in poor countries produce in their own backyards! Cheapest meat on Earth and a chicken breast sells for the same price as steak in many grocery stores in Canada!

Canadians do provide an enormous subsidy to farmers by paying double the price of the normal price for the product at the grocery store. That is the cost of supply management which gives guaranteed pricing to producers no matter what. No cyclicality. Wonderful cartel.

If you guys want to block American dairy from coming in, fine. However, supply management must go.

Cardboard

Saputo agrees with you (as do I):

https://globalnews.ca/news/4281520/canadian-dairy-saputo-inc-pricing-system-us/


Did you read the article carefully?  I don't think he agrees with Cardboard.  My understanding is that he's talking about ending the 2016 Class 7 agreement, not the supply-management system.


Sharad

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Re: Canadian tariffs
« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2018, 09:41:49 AM »
"On dairy specifically. Dairy is one of those industries prone to overproduce and destroy themselves. Countries deal with this in different ways. Canada uses supply management. The US uses huge subsidies. In fact the whole US dairy industry produces at a loss. The only thing that keeps it going are huge subsidies. Canada does not subsidies producers."

This is totally false and propaganda from dairy farmers. Same from chicken farmers or the meat that anyone in poor countries produce in their own backyards! Cheapest meat on Earth and a chicken breast sells for the same price as steak in many grocery stores in Canada!

Canadians do provide an enormous subsidy to farmers by paying double the price of the normal price for the product at the grocery store. That is the cost of supply management which gives guaranteed pricing to producers no matter what. No cyclicality. Wonderful cartel.

If you guys want to block American dairy from coming in, fine. However, supply management must go.

Cardboard

Saputo agrees with you (as do I):

https://globalnews.ca/news/4281520/canadian-dairy-saputo-inc-pricing-system-us/


Did you read the article carefully?  I don't think he agrees with Cardboard.  My understanding is that he's talking about ending the 2016 Class 7 agreement, not the supply-management system.

I read the article carefully, yes, but I didn't read this entire thread as carefully.

I guess I'll just post the article without any discussion or opinion next time.
"If we are not able to ask skeptical questions, to interrogate those who tell us that something is true, to be skeptical of those in authority, then we are up for grabs for the next charlatan - political or religious - who comes ambling along."
- Carl Sagan

rukawa

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Re: Canadian tariffs
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2018, 09:05:46 PM »
I would not support eliminating the de-minimus threshold. This is why: Let's say that a Canadian retailer imports an US product for sale in Canada. When a customer purchases that product the customer has to pay sales tax. If the customer instead goes and purchases that product across the border (or from a US e-tailer) then the customer would pay no sales tax.

The customer would pay US sales tax. And the US has a far higher threshold at $800. But even if you were interested in the tax argument all it implies is that you should raise the deminimus until the cost of administering equals the tax collected which is a far higher level that we have now.

Quote
This logically makes no sense to me, aside from wiping out the Canadian retail sector. I guess I'm not so selfish to wipe out entire sectors of the economy in order to save a buck. One also has to wonder, if one goes about intentionally and systematically wiping out sectors of one's economy, how many bucks will be left for one to save?

Then you should be a Luddite since technology has done more to destroy whole sectors of the economy to "selfishly save a buck" as you put it than trade ever will. The whole history of progress of capitalism is the selfish evil process you described above of wiping out whole sectors of the economy systematically. And nearly every single thing we value including all scientific, technological, and social progress would basically not exist if it weren't for that. Even Karl Marx understood that.




rb

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Re: Canadian tariffs
« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2018, 09:49:13 PM »
I would not support eliminating the de-minimus threshold. This is why: Let's say that a Canadian retailer imports an US product for sale in Canada. When a customer purchases that product the customer has to pay sales tax. If the customer instead goes and purchases that product across the border (or from a US e-tailer) then the customer would pay no sales tax.

The customer would pay US sales tax. And the US has a far higher threshold at $800. But even if you were interested in the tax argument all it implies is that you should raise the deminimus until the cost of administering equals the tax collected which is a far higher level that we have now.
I don't care that the consumer pays US sales tax. You're a Canadian consumer, you pay Canadian sales tax. The idea that a country would send its tax receipts to another country is absurd - but if the US would like to remit its tax receipts to Canada I would support staffing the acceptance window 24/7  8).

And yes, I am concerned about the revenue aspect if it. That's why I said that I would fully support simplifying the collection process to a great degree. That should lower the collection cost a lot.

Quote
This logically makes no sense to me, aside from wiping out the Canadian retail sector. I guess I'm not so selfish to wipe out entire sectors of the economy in order to save a buck. One also has to wonder, if one goes about intentionally and systematically wiping out sectors of one's economy, how many bucks will be left for one to save?

Then you should be a Luddite since technology has done more to destroy whole sectors of the economy to "selfishly save a buck" as you put it than trade ever will. The whole history of progress of capitalism is the selfish evil process you described above of wiping out whole sectors of the economy systematically. And nearly every single thing we value including all scientific, technological, and social progress would basically not exist if it weren't for that. Even Karl Marx understood that.

I think you misunderstood what I meant. I have no problem with businesses duking it out in the great colosseum of the marketplace. As you say technology has always played a big part in that bloody sport. I'm fine with that too. What I'm not fine with is putting my hand on the scale to tip it. Such as saying that foreign businesses don't have to collect/remit sales tax whereas domestic ones do. These are the rules. Play within them. May the best one win. Best of luck.