Author Topic: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.  (Read 2383202 times)

rros

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Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #9850 on: May 12, 2018, 12:28:06 PM »
my best guess is that FnF are sought to be added for the derivative claims asserted by mr. barrett.  if not done, then the case is simply by certain named Ps (most prominent fairholme) and other nonP shareholders are not able to benefit
Chris, do you think the conservator swipes everybody's rights, inlcuding Board and management? Then, at the conservator discretion, some tasks can be chosen to be delegated. Like day to day operations and some functioning of the board. This means FF really do not really exist, only FHFA in their place, as long as there is a conservatorship. Am I reading the law the wrong way? Also, doesn't a derivative suit happen only when the principal actor is unable to suit? Meaning, FF can't sue so shareholders seek a derivative suit but if FF are included, this denies "derivative". I haven't read the filing so I am speaking out my behind :)
Oh, and like Locus.. I can't keep quiet.


cherzeca

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Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #9851 on: May 12, 2018, 02:43:31 PM »
my best guess is that FnF are sought to be added for the derivative claims asserted by mr. barrett.  if not done, then the case is simply by certain named Ps (most prominent fairholme) and other nonP shareholders are not able to benefit
Chris, do you think the conservator swipes everybody's rights, inlcuding Board and management? Then, at the conservator discretion, some tasks can be chosen to be delegated. Like day to day operations and some functioning of the board. This means FF really do not really exist, only FHFA in their place, as long as there is a conservatorship. Am I reading the law the wrong way? Also, doesn't a derivative suit happen only when the principal actor is unable to suit? Meaning, FF can't sue so shareholders seek a derivative suit but if FF are included, this denies "derivative". I haven't read the filing so I am speaking out my behind :)
Oh, and like Locus.. I can't keep quiet.

as to derivative actions, all shareholder suits against fhfa should have a derivative component, because even though HERA says fhfa steps into shareholder shoes, fhfa cant be expected to sue fhfa...though 2 frigging judges on dc circuit court held otherwise.  since fairholme in ct claims is not class action, amending complaint to add a derivative component makes sense

muscleman

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Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #9852 on: May 12, 2018, 04:39:18 PM »
@muscleman

The Sweeney case has dragged out because discovery took 4 years to complete. This was bc the  defendants fought tooth and nail to keep ~11,000 documents private by claiming boogus privelage claims. Now that discovery wrapped up a few months back with plaintiffs in possession of all the evidence needed, the case is back on schedule where the final filing is due in Dec. and a ruling expected sometime in 2019.


thank you! In theory if there is some dark force dragging this case beyond 2020 when Sweeney’s term ends, what will happen? Do judges all try and get their cases wrapped before their term ends?

allnatural

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Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #9853 on: May 12, 2018, 06:25:38 PM »
The derivatives actions in these suits always baffles me. Yes shareholders are suing on behalf of the GSEs, if they won't, who else will? That's because the FHFA is in bed with the UST, and the GSEs are controlled by the FHFA, which is an inherent conflict of interest.  In what world would the FHFA ever be expected to sue itself (on behalf of the GSEs) for an agreement it entered into on its own free will (or forced into) with the UST? There is legal precedent that plaintiffs cite that when a conflict of interest such as this presents itself, shareholders should be able to sue on behalf of the harmed entity (GSEs).

@muscleman

I'm not sure what happens in that scenario. Let's hope we don't have to find out. If this isn't resolved by 2019 then Mnuchin really dropped the ball on an issue he has repeatedly claimed he will address time and time again.

Luke 5:32

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Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #9854 on: May 15, 2018, 12:59:29 PM »
Courtesy of Peter A. Chapman...
The Saxton case was argued before the Eighth Circuit this morning, and an audio recording of the 40-minute hearing is available at http://media-oa.ca8.uscourts.gov/OAaudio/2018/5/171727.MP3 at no charge. 
"Lead me with strong hands, stand up when I can't. Don't leave me hungry for love chasing dreams, what about us? Show me you're willing to fight, that I'm still the love of your life." Listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLr6G8Xy5uc

rros

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Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #9855 on: May 15, 2018, 01:27:20 PM »
Courtesy of Peter A. Chapman...
The Saxton case was argued before the Eighth Circuit this morning, and an audio recording of the 40-minute hearing is available at http://media-oa.ca8.uscourts.gov/OAaudio/2018/5/171727.MP3 at no charge.
Thank you!

HalfMeasure

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Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #9856 on: May 15, 2018, 02:13:28 PM »
Courtesy of Peter A. Chapman...
The Saxton case was argued before the Eighth Circuit this morning, and an audio recording of the 40-minute hearing is available at http://media-oa.ca8.uscourts.gov/OAaudio/2018/5/171727.MP3 at no charge.
Thank you!

Thanks. Anyone have any thoughts on how the arguments went? Listening now.

emily

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Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #9857 on: May 15, 2018, 08:27:00 PM »
I think plaintiff's lawyer need to understand that judges are not good with numbers. I am not a finance person and can get swayed when someone repeatedly says with a long pause 'oh, your honor, taxpayers are potentially on hook for 250 billion in credit guarantee".  That 250 billion looks like a huge number to the judges. The defendant's lawyer keeps repeating it, he is a master at it.

The plaintiff's lawyer needs to repeat over and over again that "Fannie and Freddie have paid 279 billion dollars to treasury and treasury says that you still owe us all of 187 billion dollars and 100% of all of your income  would continue to flow to us indefinitely and that you haven't repaid us a dime to date" .

This case will likely be a loss too unless plaintiff lawyers start using the rhetoric in court " Fannie and Freddie have paid 279 billion dollars to date to treasury and treasury says that you still owe us all of 187 billion dollars and 100% of all of your income would continue to flow to us indefinitely and that you haven't repaid us a dime yet. In fact, your honor, treasury has taken another 150 billion in fines from large banks, banks that caused the crisis and this money belongs to Fannie and Freddie who are the victims. Thus effectively treasury has illegaly taken over $429 billion from Fannie and Freddie and still says they haven't been paid anything to date and will continue to take away 100% of their money in perpetuity" Keep repeating this $429 billion number everywhere in court, on social media and watch the power of words.


[/quote]

Thanks. Anyone have any thoughts on how the arguments went? Listening now.
[/quote]
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 08:52:21 PM by emily »

emily

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Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #9858 on: May 15, 2018, 08:36:16 PM »
We have been wrong on court cases, wrong on analysis on price movements.  Pershing not only maintains their position on Fannie and Freddie common shares but has been buying more. Ackman even repeats himself on this call and not just slip of tongue, that they have been buying more. I see that Capital group has been buying more as well.

https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=140810557

Watch out for that black swan event. Someone will have to wear black. Soon. May be even before Nov 6, 2018.

Pershing square holdings acquires another 44.7 million common shares (Pershing capital already had 115 million common shares) ? and American capital acquires another 3.3 million common shares?. What is going on? The price is dropping on commons, there is gloom and doom on GSE  stock but Pershing  and American capital buy even more? Something that we don’t know or they are fools?

http://markets.money.cnn.com/research/quote/shareholders.asp?symb=FNM&subView=institutional

capital bought a little more in the quarter but the pershing info is old and stale.  rather, i'm kinda anticipating some WSJ news story that ackman or some other large common holder has fully exited their common position.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 08:42:51 PM by emily »

emily

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Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #9859 on: May 15, 2018, 09:15:08 PM »
Wondering how many shares Third point owns? a lot?

Third point : The top five losers for the period were Nestlé SA, DowDuPont Inc., Facebook Inc., Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac, and Vulcan Materials Co.

http://www.thirdpoint.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Third-Point-Q1-2018-Investor-Letter-Final.pdf