Author Topic: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.  (Read 2718032 times)

DRValue

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #9840 on: May 16, 2018, 09:10:53 AM »
Courtesy of Peter A. Chapman...
The Saxton case was argued before the Eighth Circuit this morning, and an audio recording of the 40-minute hearing is available at http://media-oa.ca8.uscourts.gov/OAaudio/2018/5/171727.MP3 at no charge.

Sounds like Treasury argued there are paths to shareholder recovery.  Questioning about limits to FHFA's power is also encouraging.  I'm not the only one that heard that, as Peter A. Chapman suggested the same (he listened to it before I did, and I thought it was noteworthy as well).

I was planning on adding to my GSE positions this week anyway, and I didn't hear anything in the oral arguments that would change my mind.

I noticed this too. I was very pleased to hear it and personally thought it was a massive mistake on her part, almost to the point that she was arguing against herself. Although previous defence lawyers had a somewhat plausible (sounding) argument, this would worry me enormously if she was defending me!
Not Investment Advice. Do Your Own Research.


Midas79

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 313
Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #9841 on: May 16, 2018, 09:13:17 AM »
Courtesy of Peter A. Chapman...
The Saxton case was argued before the Eighth Circuit this morning, and an audio recording of the 40-minute hearing is available at http://media-oa.ca8.uscourts.gov/OAaudio/2018/5/171727.MP3 at no charge.

Thanks for posting this. For some reason it kept crashing my browser and I got tired of having to find my place, so I went here
http://media.ca8.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/oaByPa.pl?last_name=saxton&first_name=thomas&getOA=Search
and downloaded the file.

At the beginning Cooper said that he was making the same arguments in front of a different court, hoping for a different result. Where do appeals panels fall in the spectrum of hearing the case anew, even to the point of disagreeing with established decisions, to following precedent from the other courts?

cherzeca

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1463
Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #9842 on: May 16, 2018, 09:18:10 AM »
Courtesy of Peter A. Chapman...
The Saxton case was argued before the Eighth Circuit this morning, and an audio recording of the 40-minute hearing is available at http://media-oa.ca8.uscourts.gov/OAaudio/2018/5/171727.MP3 at no charge.

Sounds like Treasury argued there are paths to shareholder recovery.  Questioning about limits to FHFA's power is also encouraging.  I'm not the only one that heard that, as Peter A. Chapman suggested the same (he listened to it before I did, and I thought it was noteworthy as well).

I was planning on adding to my GSE positions this week anyway, and I didn't hear anything in the oral arguments that would change my mind.

treasury counsel said that very much out of school, and then she refused to identify any limits to fhfa's authority as conservator when asked by judge whether a criminal act would be, saying she did not want to go out on a limb, in effect, realizing no doubt her prior faux pas.

my question re treasury counsel's argument is to what degree will judges discount her advocacy based upon her floundering.

DocSnowball

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 203
Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #9843 on: May 16, 2018, 09:19:00 AM »
My computer screen and headphones shed tears listening to the argument and reading the draft of the arguments.

Judge comments that the Third amendment effectively nationalized the companies. He also questions "So what value is left for shareholders after the Third amendment?". Defense argues that the companies were already worthless at the time of the third amendment...Judge comments "its worth nothing then, and its worth nothing now - zero then, zero now...zero in the future"..."they are investors and they are crazy enough to keep doing that..."

Judge "Could you give me a scenario where there could be value (for the shareholders) under the third amendment?"...@31 minutes...listen to the response for what it's worth

cherzeca

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1463
Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #9844 on: May 16, 2018, 09:19:52 AM »
Courtesy of Peter A. Chapman...
The Saxton case was argued before the Eighth Circuit this morning, and an audio recording of the 40-minute hearing is available at http://media-oa.ca8.uscourts.gov/OAaudio/2018/5/171727.MP3 at no charge.

Thanks for posting this. For some reason it kept crashing my browser and I got tired of having to find my place, so I went here
http://media.ca8.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/oaByPa.pl?last_name=saxton&first_name=thomas&getOA=Search
and downloaded the file.

At the beginning Cooper said that he was making the same arguments in front of a different court, hoping for a different result. Where do appeals panels fall in the spectrum of hearing the case anew, even to the point of disagreeing with established decisions, to following precedent from the other courts?

the answer to your question is to listen to first part of fhfa's cayne argument, citing the three circuit court cases he has won, and then male judge cutting him off and saying yes but now mr cayne you must confront our 8th cic case in CedarMinn

DRValue

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #9845 on: May 16, 2018, 09:31:08 AM »
My computer screen and headphones shed tears listening to the argument and reading the draft of the arguments.

Judge comments that the Third amendment effectively nationalized the companies. He also questions "So what value is left for shareholders after the Third amendment?". Defense argues that the companies were already worthless at the time of the third amendment...Judge comments "its worth nothing then, and its worth nothing now - zero then, zero now...zero in the future"..."they are investors and they are crazy enough to keep doing that..."

Judge "Could you give me a scenario where there could be value (for the shareholders) under the third amendment?"...@31 minutes...listen to the response for what it's worth

The defence really infuriates me at times and the judges even more so. Normally goes something like this:

"Whats left for shareholders?"
"your honor, you have to remember the tax payers put up x billion dollars"

And?? How does that impact whats left for shareholders?
Not Investment Advice. Do Your Own Research.

Sunrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 514
Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #9846 on: May 16, 2018, 09:41:30 AM »
My computer screen and headphones shed tears listening to the argument and reading the draft of the arguments.

Judge comments that the Third amendment effectively nationalized the companies. He also questions "So what value is left for shareholders after the Third amendment?". Defense argues that the companies were already worthless at the time of the third amendment...Judge comments "its worth nothing then, and its worth nothing now - zero then, zero now...zero in the future"..."they are investors and they are crazy enough to keep doing that..."

Judge "Could you give me a scenario where there could be value (for the shareholders) under the third amendment?"...@31 minutes...listen to the response for what it's worth

The defence really infuriates me at times and the judges even more so. Normally goes something like this:

"Whats left for shareholders?"
"your honor, you have to remember the tax payers put up x billion dollars"

And?? How does that impact whats left for shareholders?

What do you mean? That’s standard practice in Donald times - his classic response to something he doesn’t like ... “yeah but what about Hilary/bad person x doing x?”(even if completely unrelated :)

rros

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 735
Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #9847 on: May 16, 2018, 09:56:29 AM »
Treasury's argument that a recovery for shareholders is possible (unknown and un-timed) is a straight arrow to the heart of the nationalization argument by plaintiff, so it is worrisome. Not to mention an acceptable delay strategy, as a recovery might be possible... within the next 1000 years.

cherzeca

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1463
Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #9848 on: May 16, 2018, 10:20:00 AM »
Treasury's argument that a recovery for shareholders is possible (unknown and un-timed) is a straight arrow to the heart of the nationalization argument by plaintiff, so it is worrisome. Not to mention an acceptable delay strategy, as a recovery might be possible... within the next 1000 years.

except i didnt see the judge concerned with nationalization buying it

HalfMeasure

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 122
Re: FNMA and FMCC preferreds. In search of the elusive 10 bagger.
« Reply #9849 on: May 16, 2018, 11:03:08 AM »
Treasury's argument that a recovery for shareholders is possible (unknown and un-timed) is a straight arrow to the heart of the nationalization argument by plaintiff, so it is worrisome. Not to mention an acceptable delay strategy, as a recovery might be possible... within the next 1000 years.

except i didnt see the judge concerned with nationalization buying it

And wouldn't that argument be analogous to something like: "I didn't steal your property, I just took it but I could return it under some nebulous circumstances thus absolving me of theft".