Author Topic: Investing in domain names  (Read 8525 times)

constructive

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Re: Investing in domain names
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2014, 01:58:01 PM »
I think we are looking at this the wrong way. The market for domain names that are relevant to the US or other english speaking countries is pretty much saturated. I think the real opportunity is in buying domain names of brands and other things that are relevant in foreign countries. I'd guess India is a prime location for this as massive amounts of people are gaining internet access through smart phones. Though the market in India isn't quite untouched I'd say, perhaps look into Nigeria or some other similar country that speaks english?
Or preemptively buy domains with the hope that a company expands into that country.

Buying existing brand names in foreign countries is illegal and will result in you losing the domain and maybe worse. Like I said, simple generics in smaller foreign markets (stuff like vacaciones.co or seguro.co) might be a good place to look. However, flipping foreign language domains for a fair price is probably difficult, especially if you don't speak the language. Those might make more sense to be developed for ad revenue.


constructive

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Re: Investing in domain names
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2014, 02:05:12 PM »
I do agree that if you're looking for a decent .com, the hit rate is extremely low. But the upside if you find one is much higher than other TLDs, where it's easier to find decent domains.

Mark Jr.

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Re: Investing in domain names
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2014, 04:12:40 PM »
Oh boy, I can't believe I missed this thread until today. Now you guys will never get me to shut up about this.

I've been immersed in the domain name business for about 20 years, I've been running a managed DNS provider and ICANN registrar for 16 of those 20 years, there a few "silos" within this space, but most of this thread speaks to three of these silos:

Domain Registration (registrars - Tucows, Godaddy)

Domain Registries (.com - Verisign)

The domain aftermarket - buying and selling domain names, also in this silo is trying to monetize domains via pay-per-click (PPC), etc.

So the first thing to understand is what drove the heyday of the domain aftermarket, including PPC values and that was the anomaly of "type-in" traffic on generic terms, which peaked around 2000-2003. In those days two things drove value:

1) people treated the browser location bar like it was a search field, and just typed keywords into it

and

2) the browsers auto-completed non-FQDN's (non fully qualified domain names) by appending ".com" on the end of it.

There was a 3rd factor that enabled a few fortunes to be amassed:

3) the aftermath of the .COM meltdown (2000 - 2002/2003) kicked off the "drop game": a lot of generic (and because of 1 & 2) valuable domains "dropped" - they were not renewed by the original registrants and people who figured this out started re-registering the good ones as they expired. Guys like Frank Schilling, Gary Chernoff and Yun Ye created HUGE portfolios of domains like this, grabbing names for the price of registration and immediately monetizing them via PPC and earning $100 CPM or more, occasionally selling a name or two for hundreds of thousands or even millions.

In 2007 I wrote an article that basically said the golden age was over and I was widely reviled by "the domainer" industry (that segment which formed around this) for saying it, but pretty well over the next few years pretty much what I predicted came to pass:

  • The browser location bar morphed into a search field
  • "type-in" traffic entered secular decline
  • competition from other segments would arrive: dns resolvers, ISPs etc would all start getting in between the browser and the destinations

But not before the space heated up so much that Big Money started entering the space. Yun Ye sold his portfolio for a few hundred million to Marchex, which was publicaly traded. A few other "domain incubators" came into existence, trying to make a model around "investing in undervalued domain assets and developing them" which basically translated in practice into "overpaying stupid money for over-valued assets and then wrecking them".

Because the golden years of 2002-2005 were still fresh in everybody's minds, the concept of "the category killer domain name" got a lot of traction and with it the erroneous belief that "if you owned the generic descriptor .com of given market, it would enable you to own that market".

Epic value destruction ensued. I wrote another article about it (the lead off post in my WebvalueInvestor blog) and, once again, was burned in effigy.

My point in that article was that there was still money to be made in domaining, but it wasn't where everybody was looking.

Tucows was mentioned in this thread, but I think misunderstood. Tucows was for a long time, the 2nd largest domain registrar in existence (I think now 3rd or 4th), but was a penny stock. I bought them for between $2 and $4 (split adjusted) starting in 2005 and finally sold them recently a little north of $17.

Tucows was my very first textbook value investment gone right for me. Totally within my circle of competence, I realized in early 2006 that Tucows (as could all registrars) was still able to amass expired domain names long after "the drop game" became too crowded for the non-pro to be viable, because they could front-run the drop and mine the expiring domains of their own customers. Because of this, my rough but hyper-conservative calculations, the value of Tucows stash of aftermarket domains was worth more than twice the market cap of the company, that portfolio didn't show up on the balance sheet, and it wasn't priced into the shares at all.

It was a punch card investment, and I kept buying until it was the largest position I have ever held. I won't say this was a "life changing" transaction for me, but I did it all within my RRSP and suffice it to say that it has been a significant factor in my retirement fund.

Where are we now?

I too thought that the new TLDs would have a reciprocal effect on legacy TLD aftermarket prices, that .com, .net and ccTLDs like .CA would enjoy a lift from the confusion all the new TLDs would produce.

I was wrong.

In the year running up to the new TLDs I personally saw deal flow drop measurably in the domain aftermarket that I have personal visibility into. Both frequency and dollar amount of deals. Brokers I know concur on this - the only ones experiencing increased dealflow are representing sellers who have massively adjusted their expectations downward: domains they were holding out for a xx,xxx sale, they are now accepting offers in the x,xxx range, and so on.

After the new TLDs, the aftermarket has dropped off the cliff. The odd breathless, manic story you hear about some domain selling for millions are atypical and usually represent situations where the buyer had deep pockets and was completely over a barrel.

My plan is to write a third installment of my domain aftermarket commentary "Welcome to the Dark Age of Domaining", it's more or less what I indicated here but will have a lot of specific examples in it. I'll post the URL when it's done.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 04:16:00 PM by Mark Jr. »

ItsAValueTrap

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Re: Investing in domain names
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2014, 05:34:50 PM »
Oh boy, I can't believe I missed this thread until today. Now you guys will never get me to shut up about this.

Let me help you...   ;D

http://www.cornerofberkshireandfairfax.ca/forum/investment-ideas/vrsn-verisign/  - the Verisign thread
http://www.cornerofberkshireandfairfax.ca/forum/investment-ideas/dmd-demand-media-11074/  - the Demand Media thread
"It's far better to buy a wonderful company at a fair price than a fair company at a wonderful price. " -Buffett

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JAllen

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Re: Investing in domain names
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2014, 06:34:22 PM »
Mark Jr.:   Thanks for that awesome insider detail.


Do you have a recommended registrar for newer TLDs?  I note that for the new TLDs, initial and ongoing renewal prices vary greatly, so the prices matter way more than just paying $10-15 for the old ones. 


Is there a place to read about how the new TLDs are priced?

Mark Jr.

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Re: Investing in domain names
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2014, 07:11:37 PM »
Do you have a recommended registrar for newer TLDs?  I note that for the new TLDs, initial and ongoing renewal prices vary greatly, so the prices matter way more than just paying $10-15 for the old ones. 

Is there a place to read about how the new TLDs are priced?

I'm not aware of any thing about the new TLD pricing per se. They are a lot more expensive than .com / .net etc (registrar wholesale cost on a .com or .net is about $8.50 or thereabouts) on the new tlds they run from $40 or higher.

This is because most new TLDs will fail over the long run, I think the operators know it, and the basic play is to make as much money as possible in the initial sunrise (which is even more expensive) and landrush phases.

For specifics if you google the TLD you want you'll probably see adds for the rars who are running specials with the best deal (just make sure you actually get the advertised price, registrars are famous for bait-and-switch google ads that advertise a low price in the search result and than the signup process upsells you six-ways-to-sunday and your final checkout is about 100X more expensive.

I wrote a couple of articles on the new TLDs:

Who will be the big winners and losers of the new TLDs?
http://www.domainnamenews.com/editorial/big-winners-losers-tlds/9646

Do you really need yourname.BLARGH?
http://blog.easydns.org/2014/03/28/the-new-tlds-are-here-email-guru-holdings-blah-blah-blah

Mark Jr.

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Re: Investing in domain names
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2014, 07:20:23 PM »
Oh boy, I can't believe I missed this thread until today. Now you guys will never get me to shut up about this.

Let me help you...   ;D

http://www.cornerofberkshireandfairfax.ca/forum/investment-ideas/vrsn-verisign/  - the Verisign thread
http://www.cornerofberkshireandfairfax.ca/forum/investment-ideas/dmd-demand-media-11074/  - the Demand Media thread

Thanks, I will check out those threads.

Briefly: Verisign has a moat. It isn't as wide as it used to be, but it's there. In practical terms they will probably run .com for a long time, although IIRC their annual 7% price hike which was baked into the contract was striken down last year (I could be wrong on that, 'cause my wholesale price on .com and .net still went up), they still have the ability to raise prices and .com will be the dominant domain for at least a decade.

I'm not following them too closely tho. After the GFC, like around 2010 or so, they were trading at a single digit P/E, but I never picked any up (actually I had a bit for awhile, nothing huge and I sold fairly early on in the run)

If they ever get cheap again they may be worth looking at (basically I think nothing is cheap right now, hence selling Tucows)

Demand Media - never understood why anybody would want it. If you were compelled to invest into the space, with Tucows sitting right there actually making money, buying back shares, why buy Demand? Just buy Tucows instead and now you get Ting as part of the package. Doesn't make any sense.

Godaddy, like Demand Media, will not cheap, is losing money, doesn't pay a dividend or buy back shares and will use the proceeds of their forthcoming IPO to pay out the PE firms.

Again, doesn't make sense to me.

If you *must* be invested into the public domain companies, buy Tucows and Verisign - ideally next time they get cheap.

My 0.02
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 07:25:18 PM by Mark Jr. »

ItsAValueTrap

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Re: Investing in domain names
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2014, 07:43:37 PM »
What do you think about NAMEV and eNom?  (I've written about them at http://wp.me/p1mOGr-UV )

Though I do agree with you that nothing is particularly cheap.

Quote
Demand Media - never understood why anybody would want it.
It's probably because most of the people who own it don't understand it?
"It's far better to buy a wonderful company at a fair price than a fair company at a wonderful price. " -Buffett

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Mark Jr.

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Re: Investing in domain names
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2014, 08:02:43 AM »
What do you think about NAMEV and eNom?  (I've written about them at http://wp.me/p1mOGr-UV )

NAMEV ended up being the Rightside spin-out right? So Demand put eNom into Rightside.

Most of your comments in that article are accurate, some minor qualifiers - I have a long mixed history with whois privacy - we used to not sell it, now we do but we sell with that caveat that you can really screw yourself with it. Godaddy has made it part of their business model that they use whois privacy to make it an insurmountable headache to transfer out (the price usually resets from 1.99 to 9.99 in concert with this) - also - whois privacy costs the registrars nothing. There is no COGs on it, it's all margin.

Anyhoo, your comments on Demands business model are spot on, I wrote about it on WVI here:

Not Needing Google. The Web version of a "wide moat"
http://webvalueinvestor.com/value-investing/not-needing-google-the-web-version-of-a-wide-moat/

Also, Network Solutions (along with Register.com) got rolled up into Web.com (WWWW).

Rightside and WWWW both  have enormous investments into the new TLD space, Tucows on the other hand, while enabling their resellers to registers all thenew TLDs, did NOT pile in and throw a tonne of money into becoming any new TLD registries. This was very smart IMHO as I think most of the investments into new TLD registries will be written off over the years. The Tucows approach was to let their competitors get distracted by the new TLDs and they would concentrate on their own stuff.

usdtor05

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Re: Investing in domain names
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2014, 01:49:22 PM »
Mark Jr.

When looking at Rightside, they have a projected $28M of "aftermarket and other" revenues that are primarily made up of advertising on domains they own and buying/selling domains. The cost structure from this business is not broken out from the costs of its domain name services biz. We have an "estimate" of what we think the margins should be on the DNS business, but don't know how we should think about contribution margin on the "aftermarket and other." Do you have a sense for what the margins would be on this type of aftermarket business?

Thanks.