Author Topic: Munger Says We Will Have Single Payer  (Read 8482 times)

bizaro86

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Re: Munger Says We Will Have Single Payer
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2018, 10:57:28 AM »
If you ever go to the US, you absolutely need travel medical insurance.  A cousin of mine got hit by a car in Vegas breaking his leg, and the bill was over $500k.


Schwab711

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Re: Munger Says We Will Have Single Payer
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2018, 12:12:55 PM »
ACA + Medicaid expansion incentives + Medicare was our Singapore solution. Healthcare, like every other major policy, is too politically sensitive right now.

HSA + HDHP is the future imo. I also think the US will (mostly because they have to) move towards single payer in a multi-decade stepped approach. ACA was essentially a large step in this direction that was started in the 1980s. Healthcare will continue to cost a fortune until Medicaid expansion is ubiquitous and the market stops changing every couple of years. Insurance for young, healthy folks will need to be compulsory. Then eventually we can tweak ACA and add additional programs to shore up incentives. That's the route I see.

LongHaul

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Re: Munger Says We Will Have Single Payer
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2018, 03:57:27 PM »
I think that was a fascinating comment by Munger and he will probably be right over time.   The US may be the only large 1st world country without universal healthcare.   

If Single payer becomes a reality, the US govt will put the screws to a huge swath of the US healthcare system.  Profits will be massively squeezed at tons of companies.

Then what .. .  Probably cheaper healthcare for everyone per capita but utilization up. 

I am very against socialized medicine of the European pricing type.  For sure in the US there is a ton of waste
but once you get low prices for all types of healthcare, innovation will plummet.  With little incentive
companies, investors and innovators, etc. wont make super important R&D investments and then a big part of the
beneficial innovation of the US and world healthcare R&D system will be gutted.   All types of innovations wont happen and end up killing and reducing healthspans vs what they would of been.  A sad 2nd order effect.     










ScottHall

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Re: Munger Says We Will Have Single Payer
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2018, 06:20:58 PM »
I think that was a fascinating comment by Munger and he will probably be right over time.   The US may be the only large 1st world country without universal healthcare.   

If Single payer becomes a reality, the US govt will put the screws to a huge swath of the US healthcare system.  Profits will be massively squeezed at tons of companies.

Then what .. .  Probably cheaper healthcare for everyone per capita but utilization up. 

I am very against socialized medicine of the European pricing type.  For sure in the US there is a ton of waste
but once you get low prices for all types of healthcare, innovation will plummet.  With little incentive
companies, investors and innovators, etc. wont make super important R&D investments and then a big part of the
beneficial innovation of the US and world healthcare R&D system will be gutted.   All types of innovations wont happen and end up killing and reducing healthspans vs what they would of been.  A sad 2nd order effect.   

3rd order effect: China, understanding the strategic importance of long term investment, picks up the slack, allowing it the distinction of being able to helicopter into developing countries with new medical discoveries it can give away to extend and cement its soft power in countries that are going to be relevant in geopolitics 20 - 30 years from now.

We're in checkmate here folks, we just haven't figured that out yet. We got fat and lazy while the Chinese have been working to throw us off the high horse.

It reminds me of the intro to Rocky 3, where we see that Rocky has lost himself to the glitz and glamour of his fame. TV commercials, magazine photoshoots, the "perfect" family Christmas and his face on merchandise everywhere.

Meanwhile we are introduced to Clubber Lang, a young fighter making his way up the rankings. We see him brutally knock out his opponents while Rocky is beating up a bunch of palookas we later discover were set up as tomato cans for Rocky to squash by his manager Mickey.

https://youtu.be/ZldDvunHQd0?t=2m30s

And while we see Clubber Lang dedicate all of his time to improving himself to better his chances at his chosen profession, we see Rocky making appearances on The Muppet Show and shilling for American Express. Rocky had grown soft and the Rocky brand was more valuable with him beating up tomato cans than risking his title against legitimate competition.

But sooner or later, if you don't take the fight to your competition, your competition will take the fight to you. Rocky couldn't duck Clubber Lang forever, and when he eventually did fight Clubber Lang he discovered that his match ups with the palookas hadn't prepared him to face real competition again.

Ever since the Cold War ended, we've been like Rocky. We've been resting on our laurels and beating up palooka countries like Iraq and Afghanistan, while China has been investing in its domestic infrastructure, building up its soft power around the world and rising up the rankings.

The day is coming soon that the US will get knocked out cold and be unable to answer the 10 count, and it's our own fault for letting our country fall apart. All that wasted money for wars could have been used to reinvest in America and make us more competitive, but I guess reinvesting in your economic moat is a tough sell when many people believe American Exceptionalism alone has imbued us with our gifts, and that philosophy has made us arrogant and lazy.

We're in checkmate; when you're in checkmate, how can you win? You've already lost, and you can't win a game that you've lost. At least, not conventionally. But there is another alternative, famous in Go clubs around Asia... The Nuclear Tesuji.

You flip over the board and the pieces go flying everywhere. It's total chaos, and the usual rules and expectations no longer apply because we're no longer playing the same game. China has been besting us by building up their strategically important infrastructure.

It's time we do the same, by issuing trillions of dollars worth of bonds to build up our own domestic infrastructure to catch up with China. And we need to do this while we still have Donald Trump in office, because he is uniquely qualified to deal with the next step of the operation.

Being the first of the major powers of the world to default on its obligations to the others. Donald Trump has had six business bankruptcies so far, that is not an easy skill to hire for. And dare I say it's one we've NEVER had in the oval office before.

We are going to build up our own domestic infrastructure with the money of foreign governments, and leave them holding the bag. It's Economic Judo, and it's something Trump is very familiar of pulling on his creditors. He can do the same thing for ours, but first we need to build as big of a foreign debt as possible.

The more money we borrow, the more we make up for our cumulative trade deficit to these countries since free trade became the flavor of the day. We'll have had the benefit of decades of lower prices and we'll get the last laugh by pulling back all the money that has been sucked out of the pockets of American families by free trade with our Nuclear Tesuji.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 10:13:54 PM by ScottHall »
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Spekulatius

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Re: Munger Says We Will Have Single Payer
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2018, 07:05:11 PM »
I think Scott has been smoking something again. The idea to use other people’s money to build something of value and then default on the mountain of debt that it took to do so, has some merit, although I suspect the devil is in the details. And, I agree that Donald T would be the right person to do so, because he is intimately familiar with defaulting on debts and generally doesn’t overthink complex matters. ;D

Back on that matter, I had an inlaw collapsing in the heat on my visit in Germany. he as taken into and ambulance and a few hours in thr emergency room. I prepaid 100€ on his behalf and the whole bill was 400€. It would ave been up to 1000€ if he had to spent the night in the emergency room. This was for an US citizen without health/ travel insurance in Germany. I am guessing the cost would have been 20x if the had occurred to a foreigner in the US.

Also for those that state single payer =nationalized medicine - well that’s not necessarily true. The German system is single payer, but resembles a mutual Insurance System rather than a nationalized system.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 07:12:26 PM by Spekulatius »
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Jurgis

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Re: Munger Says We Will Have Single Payer
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2018, 10:10:42 PM »
I think that was a fascinating comment by Munger and he will probably be right over time.   The US may be the only large 1st world country without universal healthcare.   

If Single payer becomes a reality, the US govt will put the screws to a huge swath of the US healthcare system.  Profits will be massively squeezed at tons of companies.

Then what .. .  Probably cheaper healthcare for everyone per capita but utilization up. 

I am very against socialized medicine of the European pricing type.  For sure in the US there is a ton of waste
but once you get low prices for all types of healthcare, innovation will plummet.  With little incentive
companies, investors and innovators, etc. wont make super important R&D investments and then a big part of the
beneficial innovation of the US and world healthcare R&D system will be gutted.   All types of innovations wont happen and end up killing and reducing healthspans vs what they would of been.  A sad 2nd order effect.   

3rd order effect: China, understanding the strategic importance of long term investment, picks up the slack, allowing it the distinction of being able to helicopter into developing countries with new medical discoveries it can give away to extend and cement its soft power in countries that are going to be relevant in geopolitics 20 - 30 years from now.

We're in checkmate here folks, we just haven't figured that out yet. We got fat and lazy while the Chinese have been working to throw us off the high horse.

It reminds me of the intro to Rocky 3, where we see that Rocky has lost himself to the glitz and glamour of his fame. TV commercials, magazine photoshoots, the "perfect" family Christmas and his face on merchandise everywhile

Meanwhile we are introduced to Clubber Lang, a young fighter making his way up the rankings. We see him brutally knock out his opponents while Rocky is beating up a bunch of palookas we later discover were set up as tomato cans for Rocky to squash by his manager Mickey.

https://youtu.be/ZldDvunHQd0?t=2m30s

And while we see Clubber Lang dedicate all of his time to improving himself to better his chances at his chosen profession, we see Rocky making appearances on The Muppet Show and shilling for American Express. Rocky had grown soft and the Rocky brand was more valuable with him beating up tomato cans than risking his title against legitimate competition.

But sooner or later, if you don't take the fight to your competition, your competition will take the fight to you. Rocky couldn't duck Clubber Lang forever, and when he eventually did fight Clubber Lang he discovered that his match ups with the palookas hadn't prepared him to face real competition again.

Ever since the Cold War ended, we've been like Rocky. We've been resting on our laurels and beating up palooka countries like Iraq and Afghanistan, while China has been investing in its domestic infrastructure, building up its soft power around the world and rising up the rankings.

The day is coming soon that the US will get knocked out cold and be unable to answer the 10 count, and it's our own fault for letting our country fall apart. All that wasted money for wars could have been used to reinvest in America and make us more competitive, but I guess reinvesting in your economic moat is a tough sell when many people believe American Exceptionalism alone has imbued us with our gifts, and that philosophy has made us arrogant and lazy.

We're in checkmate; when you're in checkmate, how can you win? You've already lost, and you can't win a game that you've lost. At least, not conventionally. But there is another alternative, famous in Go clubs around Asia... The Nuclear Tesuji.

You flip over the board and the pieces go flying everywhere. It's total chaos, and the usual rules and expectations no longer apply because we're no longer playing the same game. China has been besting by building up their strategically important infrastructure.

It's time we do the same, by issuing trillions of dollars worth of bonds to build up our own domestic infrastructure to catch up with China. And we need to do this while we still have Donald Trump in office, because he is uniquely qualified to deal with the next step of the operation.

Being the first of the major powers of the world to default on its obligations to the others. Donald Trump has had six business bankruptcies so far, that is not an easy skill to hire for. And dare I say it's one we've NEVER had in the oval office before.

We are going to build up our own domestic infrastructure with the money of foreign governments, and leave them holding the bag. It's Economic Judo, and it's something Trump is very familiar of pulling on his creditors. He can do the same thing for ours, but first we need to build as big of a foreign debt as possible.

The more money we borrow, the more we make up for our cumulative trade deficit to these countries since free trade became the flavor of the day. We'll have had the benefit of decades of lower prices and we'll get the last laugh by pulling back all the money that has been sucked out of the pockets of American families by free trade with our Nuclear Tesuji.

ScottHall for Secretary of State!


...

at the very least:

ScottHall for Anthony Scaramucci!  8)
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ScottHall

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Re: Munger Says We Will Have Single Payer
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2018, 10:32:40 PM »
I think that was a fascinating comment by Munger and he will probably be right over time.   The US may be the only large 1st world country without universal healthcare.   

If Single payer becomes a reality, the US govt will put the screws to a huge swath of the US healthcare system.  Profits will be massively squeezed at tons of companies.

Then what .. .  Probably cheaper healthcare for everyone per capita but utilization up. 

I am very against socialized medicine of the European pricing type.  For sure in the US there is a ton of waste
but once you get low prices for all types of healthcare, innovation will plummet.  With little incentive
companies, investors and innovators, etc. wont make super important R&D investments and then a big part of the
beneficial innovation of the US and world healthcare R&D system will be gutted.   All types of innovations wont happen and end up killing and reducing healthspans vs what they would of been.  A sad 2nd order effect.   

3rd order effect: China, understanding the strategic importance of long term investment, picks up the slack, allowing it the distinction of being able to helicopter into developing countries with new medical discoveries it can give away to extend and cement its soft power in countries that are going to be relevant in geopolitics 20 - 30 years from now.

We're in checkmate here folks, we just haven't figured that out yet. We got fat and lazy while the Chinese have been working to throw us off the high horse.

It reminds me of the intro to Rocky 3, where we see that Rocky has lost himself to the glitz and glamour of his fame. TV commercials, magazine photoshoots, the "perfect" family Christmas and his face on merchandise everywhile

Meanwhile we are introduced to Clubber Lang, a young fighter making his way up the rankings. We see him brutally knock out his opponents while Rocky is beating up a bunch of palookas we later discover were set up as tomato cans for Rocky to squash by his manager Mickey.

https://youtu.be/ZldDvunHQd0?t=2m30s

And while we see Clubber Lang dedicate all of his time to improving himself to better his chances at his chosen profession, we see Rocky making appearances on The Muppet Show and shilling for American Express. Rocky had grown soft and the Rocky brand was more valuable with him beating up tomato cans than risking his title against legitimate competition.

But sooner or later, if you don't take the fight to your competition, your competition will take the fight to you. Rocky couldn't duck Clubber Lang forever, and when he eventually did fight Clubber Lang he discovered that his match ups with the palookas hadn't prepared him to face real competition again.

Ever since the Cold War ended, we've been like Rocky. We've been resting on our laurels and beating up palooka countries like Iraq and Afghanistan, while China has been investing in its domestic infrastructure, building up its soft power around the world and rising up the rankings.

The day is coming soon that the US will get knocked out cold and be unable to answer the 10 count, and it's our own fault for letting our country fall apart. All that wasted money for wars could have been used to reinvest in America and make us more competitive, but I guess reinvesting in your economic moat is a tough sell when many people believe American Exceptionalism alone has imbued us with our gifts, and that philosophy has made us arrogant and lazy.

We're in checkmate; when you're in checkmate, how can you win? You've already lost, and you can't win a game that you've lost. At least, not conventionally. But there is another alternative, famous in Go clubs around Asia... The Nuclear Tesuji.

You flip over the board and the pieces go flying everywhere. It's total chaos, and the usual rules and expectations no longer apply because we're no longer playing the same game. China has been besting by building up their strategically important infrastructure.

It's time we do the same, by issuing trillions of dollars worth of bonds to build up our own domestic infrastructure to catch up with China. And we need to do this while we still have Donald Trump in office, because he is uniquely qualified to deal with the next step of the operation.

Being the first of the major powers of the world to default on its obligations to the others. Donald Trump has had six business bankruptcies so far, that is not an easy skill to hire for. And dare I say it's one we've NEVER had in the oval office before.

We are going to build up our own domestic infrastructure with the money of foreign governments, and leave them holding the bag. It's Economic Judo, and it's something Trump is very familiar of pulling on his creditors. He can do the same thing for ours, but first we need to build as big of a foreign debt as possible.

The more money we borrow, the more we make up for our cumulative trade deficit to these countries since free trade became the flavor of the day. We'll have had the benefit of decades of lower prices and we'll get the last laugh by pulling back all the money that has been sucked out of the pockets of American families by free trade with our Nuclear Tesuji.

ScottHall for Secretary of State!


...

at the very least:

ScottHall for Anthony Scaramucci!  8)

Thanks Jurgis. Stay tuned, because I have a lot to say on the matter of financial responsibility and how we should really be treating our multi-trillion unfunded liabilities. According to Stanford, here in CA we could be facing $1 trillion ALONE through our pension system. But the state is saying $150 billion unfunded, but guess what, they are also saying 7% returns from their pension system going forward. They haven't come even close, on average, over the past decade. And if those mediocre returns keep up, well, the numbers get really big, really quick.

It is going to take some major financial ingenuity to solve these massive obligations we have made to ourselves. I voted John Chiang for Governor because he has been Treasurer or Controller since 2007, finding one rabbit after the other to pull out of the hat to keep us going.

That is the sort of guy we are going to need to navigate the pension crisis. Oroville says the city is going to run out of money in 4 years, and then bankruptcy. Most cities in the state are in the hole big time, many thousands of dollars per resident.

Too bad he is going to lose, nobody loves a technocrat anymore. Then we are going to be stuck with Gavin Newsom, who is a showboat, and most likely this guy John Cox who has campaigned for office 13 times and hasn't won a single one of them.

John Cox has views that just cannot win in modern CA, and he has been turning the election into a base race so that he can coalesce support among conservatives to make it out of California's jungle primary alive.

In CA, everyone running gets places in one giant pool of candidates. No separation by party. The top two vote getters in that pool then go on to the general election. It doesn't matter if it's a Republican and a Democrat, two Democrats, two Republicans, or even third parties/independents.

So naturally this has led to the Republicans running to try to out Trump each other to be the one the conservative wing rallies behind and make it out of the jungle alive. Unfortunately, running a base race in a state where Republicans have 25% and Democrats have 44% is a sure way to lose a general election.

So Goofy Gavin is going to be Governor, and this whole charade continues another four or so years... and then maybe the state turns into Newsom's Nightmare and he takes the blame for being the one holding the potato when the music stops.

Maybe then the local Republicans will have their shit enough together to capitalize on the fallout and win the Governor's mansion for the first time since Schwarzenegger. Or maybe Gavin will just get replaced by another Democrat in the jungle primary and the Republican party stays as irrelevant as ever because of their refusal to budge on social issues.

But one thing is for sure, we need someone with some financial sense running the state. They're bragging now about the $10 billion budget surplus but that surplus is going to be a drop in the bucket compared to what they need if the worst comes to pass. Or, god forbid, a recession comes and whacks the market and the pension's % funded status along with it.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 10:36:58 PM by ScottHall »
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rb

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Re: Munger Says We Will Have Single Payer
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2018, 11:07:47 PM »
Spekulatius,

I think Scotty is somewhat sober tonight. Initial post:

Quote
Maybe then the local Republicans will have their shit enough together to capitalize on the fallout and win the Governor's mansion for the first time since 1992. Or maybe Gavin will just get replaced by another Democrat in the jungle primary and the Republican party stays as irrelevant as ever because of their refusal to budge on social issues.

Revised post without edit marker:

Quote
Maybe then the local Republicans will have their shit enough together to capitalize on the fallout and win the Governor's mansion for the first time since Schwarzenegger. Or maybe Gavin will just get replaced by another Democrat in the jungle primary and the Republican party stays as irrelevant as ever because of their refusal to budge on social issues.

Sober enough to realize that there was no gubernatorial election in California in 1992 and that California has had a Republican governor from 1983 to 1999 and then from 2003-2011. So maybe just 2 spliffs in?  :-\

ScottHall

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Re: Munger Says We Will Have Single Payer
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2018, 01:23:30 AM »
Spekulatius,

I think Scotty is somewhat sober tonight. Initial post:

Quote
Maybe then the local Republicans will have their shit enough together to capitalize on the fallout and win the Governor's mansion for the first time since 1992. Or maybe Gavin will just get replaced by another Democrat in the jungle primary and the Republican party stays as irrelevant as ever because of their refusal to budge on social issues.

Revised post without edit marker:

Quote
Maybe then the local Republicans will have their shit enough together to capitalize on the fallout and win the Governor's mansion for the first time since Schwarzenegger. Or maybe Gavin will just get replaced by another Democrat in the jungle primary and the Republican party stays as irrelevant as ever because of their refusal to budge on social issues.

Sober enough to realize that there was no gubernatorial election in California in 1992 and that California has had a Republican governor from 1983 to 1999 and then from 2003-2011. So maybe just 2 spliffs in?  :-\

Sometimes I include "mistakes" and don't correct them, but tonight I did on TWO separate posts. Is marijuana the difference, or is it something else entirely?

I know you hate Trump and don't like his tax policy but at the end of the day we may be lucky we have him relative to the alternative we were presented in the last presidential election, a proven failure family who are the embodiment of the east coast elite culture.

The Clintons want too much government overreach and a lot of control in the hands of a few people. But that's not what America is based off of, and the call of the west is about individual liberty and freedom, we're good enough not to need the government to tell us what to do.

That doesn't sit well with the Hillarys of the world and is a big reason we've seen entitlement spending go up consistently. They know that if you can get the population reliant on the government for their nourishment, the government then flips the tables and has control of the people instead of the people having control of the government.

In California, it's the same problem we're facing right now. The state government has promised entitlements it can't afford to get state workers under the thumbs of the Democrats.

What you may not know if you're not a resident of California is that our state is actually under the control of a shadow government that is not actually elected by the people. These people work within the CalPERS pension system, and decide what sort of returns the members of the pension system have to plan by.

Right now it is 7%, and at that rate Oroville and many other cities will be bankrupt in 4 years. The cities are begging for CalPERS to find a way to increase the returns, so that they have to contirbute less to finance the pensions of their employees.

CalPERS decides the rate and then the municipalities have to pay based on that rate. Who elects the board members of CalPERS? Of the 13 board members, 6 are elected by the members of CalPERS, 3 are appointed, 2 unelected state department heads and only 2 are indirectly elected in the elections for Treasurer and Controller.

This has created a situation where state employees, most of them Democrats, have the state and its municipalities over a barrel and there's nothing we can do about it because the vast majority of the positions on the board are not elected.

http://www.sacbee.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/foon-rhee/article173426476.html

My original unedited version was actually right, by the way, but I decided to edit it because I just knew many non-Californians would not understand what I meant. It looks like I was right about that. But since you want to know, I will tell you the full story.

There has been a storm brewing in California for decades. It's a storm that is soon to come to a head, and yes, the election in 1992 that won control of the Governor's mansion away from the Republicans forever played a VERY big role in its creation...

But I never said ANYTHING about that win being a Governor's race.

The race I'm referring to was for a ballot initiative, which is a thing that we do a lot in California. Basically what it means for us to vote on a ballot initiative, is that either because of the legislature or enough voters of California signed a petition, a ballot initiative is put on the ballot during election season. And the purpose of the ballot initiative is to vote on a change of the law, for the most part, each one of us with one vote per person.

Everyone in CA gets to be their own representative in a giant legislature, and the cards will fall where they may.

Well, in 1992 there was a ballot initiative placed on the California ballot called Proposition 162. The idea behind Proposition 162 was to amend the constitution and give pension boards essentially full control over the management of the pension's assets AND actuarial function - dictating required contributions by the cities and state - and made it very difficult for the legislature to amend the process for electing board members.

In other words, it was the creation of a shadow government that could make our state and municipal governments bend the knee with the slightest changes of assumptions, and with no oversight. The only Governors that have won control of the Governors mansion in reality since that time have been Democrats, and because the state Democratic party has the backing of most of the state unions.

You can read more about it here:

http://articles.latimes.com/1992-10-25/news/mn-1327_1_pension-fund

https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_162,_the_%22Pension_Protection_Act%22_(1992)

Every future governor was shackled by its passing, but it took all the power away from the Republicans, because the Democrats have the benefit of the pension beneficiaries being a big chunk of their base. It's the policy they already wanted, to bleed the state dry for their patrons and shackle the freedom our ELECTED governors have to implement their own policies.

Just look at what happened when "Mr. Enron" Gray Davis signed SB 400 and sealed our state's fate of inevitable bankruptcy. Between the unelected pension board reigning as the shadow government over state and municipal budgets and the big increase in pension benefits Davis signed, it's going to take a lot of effort to dig our way out of this mess.

Goofy Gavin is likely to win this time, but once the pension crisis starts hitting in full force - in about four years, for Oroville - Republicans may indeed have the chance of winning the Governor's mansion for the first time since 1992.

Because maybe, just maybe, we'll finally be willing to deal with the elephant in the room once we start watching more and more great California cities financially burn to the ground as each week goes by. Maybe we'll be ready for a fiscally conservative, Republican governor who is willing to stand up to the pension board, slay the unelected shadow government once and for all and return power to the PEOPLE of California.

But it certainly WON'T happen if people like John Cox are the ones the Republican party decides to throw its support behind. He has views that are non-starters in CA, and if we're going to take back California for the Gipper, we need to accept the fact that red meat conservatism won't work here. Or the party can continue to stick its head in the sand, and continue its long slide into irrelevance, with control of the Governor's mansion staying with the unelected board of CalPERS.

If that is the case, watch out below because California is due to fall apart and the risk is SYSTEMIC to the entire U.S. financial system. The consequences will be dire.
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ScottHall

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Re: Munger Says We Will Have Single Payer
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2018, 01:44:04 AM »
Poor Oroville; they are now saying that bankruptcy could be as soon as two years away! I hope there isn't a market crash because it could get really, really ugly in a lot of places.

http://www.actionnewsnow.com/content/news/Oroville-Takes-New-Preventative-Measures-to-Avoid-Bankruptcy-in-Near-Future-480190303.html
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