Author Topic: The Big Vitamin D Mistake (not enough)  (Read 1462 times)

rkbabang

  • Lifetime Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3375
Re: The Big Vitamin D Mistake (not enough)
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2017, 08:56:35 AM »


DooDiligence

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1127
  • ♪ 🎶 ♫ ♪ 🎶 ♫
Re: The Big Vitamin D Mistake (not enough)
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2017, 08:57:44 AM »
Kind of a fork in the discussion but what are your thoughts on fingernail supplements?

I asked a surgeon recently & he said Biotin.

After a little reading, it appears that it's the only nutrient with evidence based results (true or false?)

My thumb & pinky nails are super strong but my index, ring & FU nails are kind of bendy (no cracking or splitting, just weaker.)

I bought a bottle of Spring Valley Hair, Skin & Nails gummies with 2500 mcg of Biotin (most of what I read said that this is a sufficient dose.)

The product also contains 15 mg of vitamin C & 15 IU of E.

Nail health is super important to me right now & I haven't started taking it yet because I just had inguinal hernia surgery (left & right, 3 weeks apart) but I quit the pain meds yesterday & am thinking about starting this supplement today.
abc | abev | aapl | bbh | brk.b | cri | cvs | dva | dis | ew | ffxdf | gpc | mo | nvo | sftby | vde

8 months left in the BRK.B 1st of the month DCA program (hoping 4 a selloff 2 go all in!)

-----

https://twitter.com/tunawish

Dynamic

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 165
Re: The Big Vitamin D Mistake (not enough)
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2017, 09:16:53 AM »
It's always good to take medical choices with a good dose of skepticism, but epidemiology is very hard.

I recommend searching on ScienceBasedMedicine.org - such as these results:
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/?s=Vitamin+D&category_name=&submit=Search

and also Ben Goldacre's BadScience.net, which in this instance appears to have fewer relevant search results but is often good on health matters:
http://www.badscience.net/index.php?s=Vitamin+D

Both of these resources take great care to balance the evidence and Science Based Medicine is particularly strong on using Bayesian reasoning to account for prior plausibility. These are far better places to learn about health matters than the popular press or TV shows.

In this case, a pretty decent overview seems to be https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/vitamin-d-review-another-overrated-supplement/#more-8480

In general, vitamins attract a lot of cranks and hopeful hypotheses that while superficially plausible frequently turn out not to work as expected in the complicated environment of the human body when subject to scientifically robust testing.

Megadosing vitamin C actually shows some signs of correlating with and quite possibly causing slightly worse health outcomes than simply obtaining about what the body needs. A plausible hypothesis is that free radicals are vital to function of the immune system, e.g. killer T cells rely on free radicals to destroy 'invading cells', and that megadosing disrupts this.

But dark-skinned people in northern climes are frequently advised to take vitamin D supplements in winter because their pigmentation reduces the absorption of sunlight and their innate production of vitamin D is insufficient at that time of year. I would be surprised if there's much danger to modest supplementation with most vitamins and the preference is usually to obtain as much of your daily allowance as possible through a varied diet.

But I'm not a medical professional, so please take medical advice before making a major step into or away from supplementation, especially if you are pregnant or have brittle bones (in the case of Vitamin D), have any medical conditions or regular medication. Likewise be wary of herbal medicine, traditional chinese medicine etc, as some of it has real side effects, such as St John's Wort which can cause liver damage, and some of it (especially bought online) is not the declared species or is adulterated with undeclared pharmaceutical drugs as powerful as Viagra (based on some analyses covered by the Skeptical media in the last year or two).

Jurgis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3546
    • Porfolio
Re: The Big Vitamin D Mistake (not enough)
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2017, 09:54:58 AM »
I am taking Vitamin D ~7000 a week (5K some brand from Amazon + 2K Trader Joe's brand).

I have a friend (*wink wink*) who had depression symptoms and taking Vitamin D got rid of them totally. So, don't self-diagnose since depression is serious thing, but also possibly take Vitamin D, especially if blood tests show deficiency.

One possible negative side effect: if you are prone to kidney stones, excessive Vitamin D may have negative effect ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidney_stone_disease ). I used to take 10K a week, reduced to 7K.

havingheart

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: The Big Vitamin D Mistake (not enough)
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2017, 10:11:26 AM »
I've been telling all my friends and family all about this topic!!  Just make sure to take magnesium with D3.

I'm pretty passionate about this because I no longer have to use my nebulizer/inhalers/montelukast for my asthma.  They also didn't even work that well for me, so every cold I got became an asthmatic nightmare.  But I am also an N=1 so take it with a grain of salt.

Magnesium as asthma treatment:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2743582/

Low levels of Vit D + mag in asthma
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27818797

Vit D3 supplementation requires magnesium
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28471760

Mineral supplements depend on their forms, i.e. magnesium oxide is poorly absorbed.

Liberty

  • Lifetime Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9043
  • twitter.com/libertyRPF
    • twitter.com/libertyRPF
Re: The Big Vitamin D Mistake (not enough)
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2017, 10:34:35 AM »
I've been telling all my friends and family all about this topic!!  Just make sure to take magnesium with D3.

I'm pretty passionate about this because I no longer have to use my nebulizer/inhalers/montelukast for my asthma.  They also didn't even work that well for me, so every cold I got became an asthmatic nightmare.  But I am also an N=1 so take it with a grain of salt.

Magnesium as asthma treatment:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2743582/

Low levels of Vit D + mag in asthma
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27818797

Vit D3 supplementation requires magnesium
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28471760

Mineral supplements depend on their forms, i.e. magnesium oxide is poorly absorbed.

Interesting. I've been having seasonal asthma, mostly in the fall or winter. I get a cold, and then cough for a month+, with inhalers not helping all that much. Can you elaborate a bit on your experience and how you got to levels that work for you with D and Mg? Thanks.
"Most haystacks don't even have a needle." |  I'm on Twitter  | Watch this, please

Jurgis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3546
    • Porfolio
Re: The Big Vitamin D Mistake (not enough)
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2017, 10:36:43 AM »
Yes, I take Magnesium Citrate too. More for blood pressure normalization though.

I have allergies mostly not up to asthma level though. I don't think I saw any change/improvement with Vit D/Magnesium.

Edit/note: I possibly take lower doses than other people take, so ./shrug.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 10:39:15 AM by Jurgis »

havingheart

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: The Big Vitamin D Mistake (not enough)
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2017, 12:01:11 PM »
Typically, when I get a cold, I end up coughing all night.  My lungs just feel incredibly itchy even if I take nyquil, benadryl, inhaler, nebulizer, montelukast, etc.  I just end up coughing in a drugged stupor, and my wife won't get any sleep for about 2 weeks either.  So part of my excitement is part of hers too as she's a lot less cranky than previously when I got sick.

Clarifying that when D3 != D2.  D2 is what doctors prescribe.  Also D2 is what's in soylent type meals.  D2 decreases D/D3 increases D
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24001747
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22552031

Long Term Upper Limit Daily ~= 10000 IU
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17209171

Take it with a meal
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20200983

My basic routine is to take 5000 IU D3/K2 + 100 mg magnesium citrate/100 mg magnesium glycinate + fish oil at the same time with a meal that includes fat once daily.  It's not as much as it seems since my D3/k2 are combined with each other and the magnesium supplement contains the two forms.

When I am sick, I double it (take it again at another meal).  And when I wake up in the middle of the night I toast a bread with butter on it and take the above without the fish oil and it's enough to help me sleep again.  This is without using any meds.

I'm not a doctor though!  There are many factors that will boost/reduce your need for vit D or amplify the vit D, weight/obesity, soda, genes (some people are missing receptors), k2, boron, drugs, etc. the list is endless, and they're all varying amounts (10%-?200%)  You can google these on the nih database.  Many of these factors can also be thin/broad and steep/shallow U/J shaped curves to add to the complexity.  So I suspect that my needs will probably be different from yours.

But the most exciting thing is this reduction in mortality!
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4196486/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4196486/figure/fig2/

Liberty

  • Lifetime Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9043
  • twitter.com/libertyRPF
    • twitter.com/libertyRPF
Re: The Big Vitamin D Mistake (not enough)
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2017, 12:21:58 PM »
Thanks for sharing. It's indeed incredibly hard to figure these things out, and even with self-experimentation, it's easy to get fooled by the placebo effect or too many variables changing at once..

Still, it's better to make your best effort than to give up and do nothing, IMO.

I think one concept that helped me think about this is understanding the difference between the "minimum recommended dose" and what would be the "optimal dose". You might need a minimum of X of nutrient Y to avoid getting certain known diseases (ie. a certain amount of vitamin C to avoid getting scurvy), but this tells you nothing about what would be the optimal quantity of nutrient Y that you should get.

For things where there's a known toxicity at relatively low levels, I tend not to even play around.

But certain nutrients have very low toxicity up to ridiculous doses, so if there's good evidence and logic for their benefits (like vitamin D3), I have no problem taking bigger doses than the minimum recommended because it's a very asymmetric risk profile.

P.S. Yes, it's bonkers that D2 is still being prescribed rather than D3.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 12:23:53 PM by Liberty »
"Most haystacks don't even have a needle." |  I'm on Twitter  | Watch this, please

NewbieD

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 146
Re: The Big Vitamin D Mistake (not enough)
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2017, 12:53:06 PM »
Thx for the reminder, and tip about non-dry tablets. I get a small dose in a probiotic I take, but gonna start adding up dose, feels like it could help at this time of year.

Fat-soluble (liposomal) seems like a bit of a game changer in supplements in terms of the concentrations that can be achieved in blood. I take liposomal curcumin sometimes when sports injuries flare up.