Author Topic: The Fermi Paradox  (Read 8359 times)

rkbabang

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Re: The Fermi Paradox
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2015, 11:19:59 AM »
What I find most fascinating about all of this is what if we do see signs of intelligent life. Now what?

Do governments now shift significant resources to putting more telescopes into space? I'm sure there would be lots of debates questioning the merits of communicating with them. If there's one how many more civilizations are out there? Or are we only seeing one because they're the Super Predator or exceeded all odds and have managed like us to still survive...

My guess would be a massive collaboration amongst major nations in teaming up to pool resources together to monitor the situation. And science initiatives redirected towards more space based R&D.

I'm not sure what we would/should do, but at least we would know


yadayada

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Re: The Fermi Paradox
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2015, 05:10:21 PM »
https://hacked.com/scientists-confirm-impossible-em-drive-propulsion/

Very very exciting! the almost ancient law of physics about to be broken. Who knows what will come out of this. we might be able to travel into space with significant % of light speed if this is true. It would also take a lot of the cost for satellites out of it if true.

The way i heard this explained was that it would be like rowing through the electromagnetic field. or like a submarine through water.  Light is basically a disturbance in the EM field (waves in a invisible field that stretches through the universe). And by shoot lightbeams in a closed tube in a certain way, supposedly you would then get thrust, if this is not a measuring error. Without an actual action reaction between mass.  would be interesting if this was true, and how far they could stretch this.

And ofcourse it was discovered by accident lol.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 05:22:04 PM by yadayada »

DTEJD1997

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Re: The Fermi Paradox
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2015, 07:24:39 PM »
Hey all:

It could be that most advanced civilizations are NOT transmitting via radio waves.

Think about our society over the last 80 years.  At first almost everything was broadcast via radio (shortwave, AM),  As time progresses we went to cable, direct satellite, and of course the internet.

I imagine that in 20 years, most communication will be through the internet and will have very little leakage that could be picked up.  A society 500+ years more advanced than we are might have virtually no radio waves or EM leakage.

It could also be that we've listened to well less than 1% of the available spectrum.

With the new initiative by Yuri Milner, we might know a lot more in a few years.

It certainly will be exciting...

DTEJD1997

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Re: The Fermi Paradox
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2015, 07:40:43 PM »
Hey all:

I forgot to mention that the amount being spent on the search for radio contact is about the amount being spent on ONE new generation fighter plane.

Additionally, construction of the world's largest radio telescope is well under way in China.

Kind of makes one think.

yadayada

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Re: The Fermi Paradox
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2015, 07:49:34 PM »
Or that radio waves only have a tiny tiny reach in our galaxy. As they tend to spread out as they travel longer. And there are 100 billion galaxies. So the signal becomes lost in the back ground noise rather quickly.
http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2012/3390.html?

It could be that faster then light travel is not possible, so alien civilizations have given up on space travel. For us it is still exciting, but maybe if a civilization progresses another thousand years, they stop caring about it. Possibly they terraform a nearby planet, but that is about it. Since the universe is really really empty. There was a planet discovered 1200 light years from here recently, almost exactly like earth, with very similar sun, that had been orbiting for a billion years longer then us. Could be that they are super advanced, but don't see the point in travelling several thousand years to us? Even at 30% light speed, which would be ridicilous, it woudl take 3600 years. And then there is risk our planet might be destroyed by that time. Maybe they are watching us, except ofcourse they are watching us in the middle ages now with super powerful telescopes.

Also worth noting that most stars in the universe are red dwarfs (70% of them). And red dwarfs dont support life very well. Planets tend to be tidally locked if they are in a spot to reach enough sun light  (meaning only one side to the sun all the time). And solar winds tend to blow off the atmosphere because they have to be closer to the sun, plus huge variations in temperature.

We are also relatively early in the age of our universe at 14 billion years.  It took at least 6-7 billiion years for planets to form. And then it takes several billion years longer to actually form life. It could be that chances of intelligent life over the next few billion years increases rapidly?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 07:51:30 PM by yadayada »

Mephistopheles

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Re: The Fermi Paradox
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2015, 08:34:51 PM »
Or that radio waves only have a tiny tiny reach in our galaxy. As they tend to spread out as they travel longer. And there are 100 billion galaxies. So the signal becomes lost in the back ground noise rather quickly.
http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2012/3390.html?

It could be that faster then light travel is not possible, so alien civilizations have given up on space travel. For us it is still exciting, but maybe if a civilization progresses another thousand years, they stop caring about it. Possibly they terraform a nearby planet, but that is about it. Since the universe is really really empty. There was a planet discovered 1200 light years from here recently, almost exactly like earth, with very similar sun, that had been orbiting for a billion years longer then us. Could be that they are super advanced, but don't see the point in travelling several thousand years to us? Even at 30% light speed, which would be ridicilous, it woudl take 3600 years. And then there is risk our planet might be destroyed by that time. Maybe they are watching us, except ofcourse they are watching us in the middle ages now with super powerful telescopes.

Also worth noting that most stars in the universe are red dwarfs (70% of them). And red dwarfs dont support life very well. Planets tend to be tidally locked if they are in a spot to reach enough sun light  (meaning only one side to the sun all the time). And solar winds tend to blow off the atmosphere because they have to be closer to the sun, plus huge variations in temperature.

We are also relatively early in the age of our universe at 14 billion years.  It took at least 6-7 billiion years for planets to form. And then it takes several billion years longer to actually form life. It could be that chances of intelligent life over the next few billion years increases rapidly?


If they're that advanced, maybe they can travel at 95% or 99% the speed of light, at which point the time experienced for those on board would be a fraction of the 1200 years due to time dilation.

We shouldn't be so quick to rule out life on planets that may be inhabitable to us. Life comes in so many different forms on Earth, who's to say it can't be vastly different on other planets, with vastly different types of needs and tolerances?

Just being devil's advocate. This stuff is fascinating to talk about but I hate how it's all just speculation and nothing more.

yadayada

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Re: The Fermi Paradox
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2015, 05:41:04 AM »
yeah that is true, time would contract a lot, and it would take a lot less time. The problem is it would shred everything inside the space ship because you would have to speed up so fast. At least as far as I understand it. And even a tiny little object in the way would completely destroy it at those speeds.

Also not ruling out that life could exist on a red dwarf, just think they could not be intelligent. It would be very simple life, since they would either have to have a super dense atmosphere or they will have no atmosphere at all. And temperature variations would be huge. They would not have the luxury to have their offspring develop their brain for that long like we have. Gravity would be a lot stronger, so space exploration would only be possible if they would get super advanced tech. And would looking at the stars be possible?

It does seem that if the enviroment is extremely harsh, you also get tougher but more hostile people. So it would be interesting if intelligent life actually did develop on a planet like that. They must be so different then us!

Pelagic

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Re: The Fermi Paradox
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2015, 08:10:25 AM »
I think confusing intelligent life with life that has the desire/ability to reach space is a mistake. Even here on Earth there are relatively intelligent life forms that have no chance of ever reaching space. Take Orcas for example, they're the most widely distributed animal on the planet and by all accounts one of the most intelligent after primates. Still, their chances of building a rocket capable of reaching space with flippers for appendages are almost nil. As humans we're incredibly lucky in that we have both intelligence and the means to express through the creation of tools. It also helps we live on a planet small enough to make it relatively easy to reach space using chemical rockets. If Earth was more massive like some of the recently discovered Earth-like planets reaching space would be quite a bit harder using chemical rockets, if not impossible. At the end of the day, humans are the right mix of smart/crazy to be able to reach space and actually want to go there. I suspect this combination  is a lot more rare than we can appreciate, space is a very hostile environment and most intelligent extraterrestrials would probably have no desire to go there. Couple that with how expansive space is and you get our isolation.

rkbabang

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Re: The Fermi Paradox
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2015, 08:37:38 AM »
I think confusing intelligent life with life that has the desire/ability to reach space is a mistake. Even here on Earth there are relatively intelligent life forms that have no chance of ever reaching space. Take Orcas for example, they're the most widely distributed animal on the planet and by all accounts one of the most intelligent after primates. Still, their chances of building a rocket capable of reaching space with flippers for appendages are almost nil. As humans we're incredibly lucky in that we have both intelligence and the means to express through the creation of tools. It also helps we live on a planet small enough to make it relatively easy to reach space using chemical rockets. If Earth was more massive like some of the recently discovered Earth-like planets reaching space would be quite a bit harder using chemical rockets, if not impossible. At the end of the day, humans are the right mix of smart/crazy to be able to reach space and actually want to go there. I suspect this combination  is a lot more rare than we can appreciate, space is a very hostile environment and most intelligent extraterrestrials would probably have no desire to go there. Couple that with how expansive space is and you get our isolation.

I agree and disagree with you.  I disagree that most intelligent (at the level of human or higher) species would have no desire to go to space.  There are obvious everyday communication advantages in having the ability to put objects in orbit around your planet.   These advantages would be even more important on a larger planet where the potential distances are even greater than on Earth.  Also, any species intelligent enough to put satellites in orbit would be intelligent enough to think that it might not be a good idea to have all of your eggs in one basket.  The idea of colonizing nearby moons, planets, large asteroids naturally follows.

Now where I agree with you.  I don't think a species without the right mix of smart/crazy to do those things would ever build cities or have anything like what we call a civilization.  This quote comes to mind:

“Every fact of science was once damned. Every invention was considered impossible. Every discovery was a nervous shock to some orthodoxy. Every artistic innovation was denounced as fraud and folly. The entire web of culture and ‘progress,’ everything on earth that is man-made and not given to us by nature, is the concrete manifestation of some man’s refusal to bow to Authority. We would own no more, know no more, and be no more than the first apelike hominids if it were not for the rebellious, the recalcitrant, and the intransigent. As Oscar Wilde truly said, ‘Disobedience was man’s Original Virtue.”  Robert Anton Wilson

Progress comes from the smart/crazy/rebelliousness in human nature, and all three of these qualities together are even rare in us, but without individuals who posses all three we would never have been anymore than chimpanzees are today.   I wonder if there are a ton of worlds out there with the intelligence equivalents of chimps and orcas on them where no species with appendages able to grasp tools ever evolves the smart/crazy/rebelliousness attributes required for real progress?

Maybe that is the great filter.

Jurgis

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Re: The Fermi Paradox
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2015, 08:49:01 AM »
Maybe that is the great filter.

Anybody who posits a "Great Filter" has to remember that it has to be very very good filter. There are billions of stars/planets. There's also billions of years in development. So "Great Filter" has to be something on the order of 1B:1 if not stronger.

Most of the filters proposed here and elsewhere are much more leaky IMO.
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