Author Topic: CoBF equivalent for startups?  (Read 1947 times)

oddballstocks

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Re: CoBF equivalent for startups?
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2019, 08:31:48 AM »
Startup School is a good idea.

Reality is this, get involved in your local community.  Most cities have a startup scene.  Retired execs flock to these meetups because they're looking for new and exciting things to do, plus companies to invest in.  There is a LOT of free advice floating around from people who have built multi-billion dollar companies.  But it's not on message boards.

The upside is most of these connections also love to get together for lunch or coffee and help you.  Again, not online, but 1000x more valuable than online. 

You guys have funding, but do you have revenue?  Have you proven you can commercialize the product?  Sales and a strong pipeline solves a lot of problems.

If there's one thing I've learned from running a company it's this: product doesn't matter much, being able to connect with people and meet their needs is what matters.  You could have a very inferior solution, but if you can network and sell you'll do a lot better than smart people with a better solution.
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Jurgis

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Re: CoBF equivalent for startups?
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2019, 08:45:09 AM »
Startup School is a good idea.

Reality is this, get involved in your local community.  Most cities have a startup scene.  Retired execs flock to these meetups because they're looking for new and exciting things to do, plus companies to invest in.  There is a LOT of free advice floating around from people who have built multi-billion dollar companies.  But it's not on message boards.

The upside is most of these connections also love to get together for lunch or coffee and help you.  Again, not online, but 1000x more valuable than online. 

You guys have funding, but do you have revenue?  Have you proven you can commercialize the product?  Sales and a strong pipeline solves a lot of problems.

If there's one thing I've learned from running a company it's this: product doesn't matter much, being able to connect with people and meet their needs is what matters.  You could have a very inferior solution, but if you can network and sell you'll do a lot better than smart people with a better solution.

QFT everything oddball said.

Re revenue: startups are in a bubble (oh no B-word!  8) ) too. Pretty much anybody who is anybody is looking at ~$6M pre-money with no revenue. And that's just at the angel level.
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LightWhale

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Re: CoBF equivalent for startups?
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2019, 12:44:21 AM »
startups are in a bubble only if you think public markets, and FAANG stocks in particular, are in a bubble.
The need for greater funding comes from inflated labour costs. We compete with rising salaries in those public companies. Hiring a proper engineer for less than $200k (and % equity) is a real struggle. 

Re
I would not try to compete with these guys in day trading or even month trading. Unless you work on illiquid securities that they don't touch.

And with illiquid stocks the risk of overfitting is alarming.


You guys have funding, but do you have revenue?  Have you proven you can commercialize the product?  Sales and a strong pipeline solves a lot of problems.

re revenues, we haven't even started building the product. But we've gone through the PoC process with some potential S&P 500 customers. That's no reason to celebrate though, and chances are still skewed towards failure. Thanks for the community tip. Real-life connections are indispensable. I'm in touch with various entrepreneurs, but it's uncomfortable to always be on the asking side. 


IMHO and in my experience ML techniques are better utilized in the consumer space

It's probably obvious to say, but shallow learning might work better for trading than deep learning, because of the low signal-to-noise and the moving goalpost inherent in asset pricing problems. Plus, if the main factor is momentum, maybe it's because these models try to forecast changes in the risk premium? But I know far less than you as it sounds, so i'll try to stick to what I know :)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 12:46:34 AM by LightWhale »

Jurgis

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Re: CoBF equivalent for startups?
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2019, 11:22:06 AM »
startups are in a bubble only if you think public markets, and FAANG stocks in particular, are in a bubble.

I disagree on FAANG. FAG stocks are mostly cheap based on a number of metrics. AN are not cheap, but not as much in a bubble as people claim.
You might be right if you mean that other tech IPOs with no earnings are in bubble. This might be the case.

Quote
The need for greater funding comes from inflated labour costs. We compete with rising salaries in those public companies. Hiring a proper engineer for less than $200k (and % equity) is a real struggle. 

Wait, they want 200K salary and % of equity from a startup?  ::)  ::)

And here I was ranting about entitled CEOs. (Well the CEOs are still more entitled.  8) )

I'll have to tell this to my friends and family who are working on a second startup for free...

When I worked at a startup, I got 1/X of that. And the founders took no salary at all. It was self-funded overall.

Anyway, glad you have the money, good luck.  8)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 11:26:07 AM by Jurgis »
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LC

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Re: CoBF equivalent for startups?
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2019, 12:14:31 PM »
Quote
Wait, they want 200K salary and % of equity from a startup?  ::)  ::)
They are absolutely worth it. Silicon valley investors are a dime a dozen and add little differentiated value. Quality engineers on the other hand are a rare commodity. If your friends/family are truly the latter they should be out on the west coast getting paid.
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Jurgis

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Re: CoBF equivalent for startups?
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2019, 05:27:17 PM »
Quote
Wait, they want 200K salary and % of equity from a startup?  ::)  ::)
They are absolutely worth it. Silicon valley investors are a dime a dozen and add little differentiated value. Quality engineers on the other hand are a rare commodity.

Maybe they are worth it maybe not. I have a feeling I know people who you'd value more than 200K (well, at least I'd value them more than 200K) and who worked at startups for way less (plus equity of course). Though maybe you're superselective and I'm wrong.  ;)

But hey, if that's the situation that's the situation. I'm sure it's nice to work at a startup with full salary. It's like a lottery where you cannot lose: you get paid and you might hit the jackpot.

Of course, there's the cash burn but that's what the leeching SV VCs are for, yeh? They'll fund another round if you need more cash. 8)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 05:29:03 PM by Jurgis »
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LightWhale

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Re: CoBF equivalent for startups?
« Reply #16 on: Today at 04:04:57 AM »
It's a matter of opportunity cost.
How much do you think such engineers make at Google/Facebook/Amazon?

Jurgis

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Re: CoBF equivalent for startups?
« Reply #17 on: Today at 06:21:56 AM »
It's a matter of opportunity cost.
How much do you think such engineers make at Google/Facebook/Amazon?

You did not say what "such" is. So either let's talk exact qualifications or you tell me how much they earn at G/F/A? 8)

Although I'll say this: if a run of the mill, not superstar engineer earns more than 200K at G/F/A, they are overpaying.  8) If you are talking about someone of the caliber of Jeff Dean or Demis Hassabis before their full ascension but with demonstrated work/qualities/brilliance, then sure they likely would get more than 200K.  8)

Edit: 3 year old data: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-salary-of-fresh-PhD-machine-learning-at-Google-Facebook-Apple-in-2016
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-salary-of-senior-researcher-at-Google-Facebook-Apple-in-2016
Glassdoor/Paysa have more up to date numbers, but these are IMO more iffy. They seem to be in similar ballpark as Quora's though.
« Last Edit: Today at 06:55:47 AM by Jurgis »
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oddballstocks

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Re: CoBF equivalent for startups?
« Reply #18 on: Today at 09:03:15 AM »
I know engineers at Google/Amazon.  I know a few at Google, they're smart, but not earth shattering smart, I'm sure they're making over $200k.  I know plenty of people who are technically much better who earn less.

I worked with a guy who went to Amazon.  He was terrible, absolutely terrible, couldn't code his way out of a wet box.  Studied like crazy, went to a top MBA school, was hired at Amazon.  He played the political game well and is now in charge of a massive division that most probably interact with.  A friend kept in loose touch, said nothing had changed about him, he didn't get smarter, just found an environment where politics was valued over output and he keeps moving up.  This was the type of guy who's show up at 5am if the boss arrive at 5:30am and stay to 11pm mindlessly doing nothing, but sitting there to show he was "committed".

Also know engineers at Uber doing the self driving stuff.  Same thing, smart, better than average, but not mind numbing smart.

Mind numbing smart.... I have met a few working at startups for almost nothing.  People who are inventing new types of materials, or doing wild things with AI.  I have a feeling if you told them they'd be provided food and have a place to sleep they'd work on this stuff for free.
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Jurgis

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Re: CoBF equivalent for startups?
« Reply #19 on: Today at 09:30:11 AM »
I know engineers at Google/Amazon.  I know a few at Google, they're smart, but not earth shattering smart, I'm sure they're making over $200k.  I know plenty of people who are technically much better who earn less.

I worked with a guy who went to Amazon.  He was terrible, absolutely terrible, couldn't code his way out of a wet box.  Studied like crazy, went to a top MBA school, was hired at Amazon.  He played the political game well and is now in charge of a massive division that most probably interact with.  A friend kept in loose touch, said nothing had changed about him, he didn't get smarter, just found an environment where politics was valued over output and he keeps moving up.  This was the type of guy who's show up at 5am if the boss arrive at 5:30am and stay to 11pm mindlessly doing nothing, but sitting there to show he was "committed".

Also know engineers at Uber doing the self driving stuff.  Same thing, smart, better than average, but not mind numbing smart.

Mind numbing smart.... I have met a few working at startups for almost nothing.  People who are inventing new types of materials, or doing wild things with AI.  I have a feeling if you told them they'd be provided food and have a place to sleep they'd work on this stuff for free.

I'm not sure why I post anything. Whatever I try to say, oddball says it better.  8)

Another QFT.
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