Author Topic: BABA - Alibaba  (Read 59455 times)

Spekulatius

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Re: BABA - Alibaba
« Reply #180 on: September 14, 2018, 04:09:12 AM »
What do people here make of BABA’s accounting. the article below, while biased, raised some valid point regarding BABA’s accounting. having a $1.2B company like Wazmu disappear from BABA’s annual report and balance sheet without a trace is done discomforting:
https://deep-throat-ipo.blogspot.com/2018/08/the-baba-20-ffinancial-comedy-gold.html
I think they've closet full of skeletons and that's the real the reason behind Ma's retirement.

The "deep-throat" guy is hyperbolic, but I've never seen any evidence that anyone really understands BABA's financials. So in that sense he's right.

Clearly BABA contains lots of extremely valuable businesses, but it's the ultimate too hard situation IMO.

My notes from reading the 20-f:

P. 4 what are the $3.262B in impairments on investments? ( mostly Alibaba pictures ?)
P.36 $13.7B senior notes and $4B 5 year loan fully drawn down, why?
p.43 VIE structure, 3 layer of holding companies above the operating subs
P. 45 WASU related party transaction
P.137 $4.862B in investment and interest income, (counted as earnings )
F-40 why change 37.5% of Alipay profit for a 33% stake? (This diluted shareholders)
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 04:23:12 AM by Spekulatius »
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Cameron

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Re: BABA - Alibaba
« Reply #181 on: September 14, 2018, 07:57:41 AM »
What do people here make of BABA’s accounting. the article below, while biased, raised some valid point regarding BABA’s accounting. having a $1.2B company like Wazmu disappear from BABA’s annual report and balance sheet without a trace is done discomforting:
https://deep-throat-ipo.blogspot.com/2018/08/the-baba-20-ffinancial-comedy-gold.html
I think they've closet full of skeletons and that's the real the reason behind Ma's retirement.

The "deep-throat" guy is hyperbolic, but I've never seen any evidence that anyone really understands BABA's financials. So in that sense he's right.

Clearly BABA contains lots of extremely valuable businesses, but it's the ultimate too hard situation IMO.

My notes from reading the 20-f:

P. 4 what are the $3.262B in impairments on investments? ( mostly Alibaba pictures ?)
P.36 $13.7B senior notes and $4B 5 year loan fully drawn down, why?
p.43 VIE structure, 3 layer of holding companies above the operating subs
P. 45 WASU related party transaction
P.137 $4.862B in investment and interest income, (counted as earnings )
F-40 why change 37.5% of Alipay profit for a 33% stake? (This diluted shareholders)
The VIE structure goes very deep,  I wish it was only 3 layers. Ma has some 41 connections to different companies based in the PRC. About 25 of which he owns a certain shareholder percentage, the rest he is on the board of. The response I got back from the BABA investor relations was that he was only a director at these 25 companies as well and not an investor. They told a flat out lie, I went to  http://www.gsxt.gov.cn/index.html
just to verify every company to make sure nothing changed. I've attached the excel file that was sent, if anyone was interested.

Spekulatius

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Re: BABA - Alibaba
« Reply #182 on: September 14, 2018, 07:30:57 PM »
What do people here make of BABA’s accounting. the article below, while biased, raised some valid point regarding BABA’s accounting. having a $1.2B company like Wazmu disappear from BABA’s annual report and balance sheet without a trace is done discomforting:
https://deep-throat-ipo.blogspot.com/2018/08/the-baba-20-ffinancial-comedy-gold.html
I think they've closet full of skeletons and that's the real the reason behind Ma's retirement.

The "deep-throat" guy is hyperbolic, but I've never seen any evidence that anyone really understands BABA's financials. So in that sense he's right.

Clearly BABA contains lots of extremely valuable businesses, but it's the ultimate too hard situation IMO.

My notes from reading the 20-f:

P. 4 what are the $3.262B in impairments on investments? ( mostly Alibaba pictures ?)
P.36 $13.7B senior notes and $4B 5 year loan fully drawn down, why?
p.43 VIE structure, 3 layer of holding companies above the operating subs
P. 45 WASU related party transaction
P.137 $4.862B in investment and interest income, (counted as earnings )
F-40 why change 37.5% of Alipay profit for a 33% stake? (This diluted shareholders)
The VIE structure goes very deep,  I wish it was only 3 layers. Ma has some 41 connections to different companies based in the PRC. About 25 of which he owns a certain shareholder percentage, the rest he is on the board of. The response I got back from the BABA investor relations was that he was only a director at these 25 companies as well and not an investor. They told a flat out lie, I went to  http://www.gsxt.gov.cn/index.html
just to verify every company to make sure nothing changed. I've attached the excel file that was sent, if anyone was interested.

Thanks for your detective work, I really didn’t go that far. I was interested in BABA for a long, but will pass. There simply is no way to rationally explain such a complex structure and the related party transactions which have been disclosed, that are positive for an investor.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 05:53:04 PM by Spekulatius »
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pcm983

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Re: BABA - Alibaba
« Reply #183 on: September 18, 2018, 12:30:37 PM »
anyone watch the investor day? strange they didnt give guidance

peterHK

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Re: BABA - Alibaba
« Reply #184 on: September 18, 2018, 01:57:16 PM »
I'm amazed so many HF's/institutions own this given it's effectively un-dilligenceable given the layers of subs and unclear personal/management holdings.

Regardless of how it turns out, it's one of the worst examples of corporate governance and disclosure I've ever seen.

At least with Tencent, 90% of the assets are owned by the listco. With BABA, you get nothing AND a management team with a history of screwing western shareholders.

Cameron

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Re: BABA - Alibaba
« Reply #185 on: September 18, 2018, 02:11:51 PM »
I'm amazed so many HF's/institutions own this given it's effectively un-dilligenceable given the layers of subs and unclear personal/management holdings.

Regardless of how it turns out, it's one of the worst examples of corporate governance and disclosure I've ever seen.

At least with Tencent, 90% of the assets are owned by the listco. With BABA, you get nothing AND a management team with a history of screwing western shareholders.

Its possible to do due-diligence it just takes a ridiculous amount of time to get to the bottom of anything they own. I just have to assume that none of the hedge funds that own this have done any kind of work or have read a single line from an Alibaba annual report. Take for example their Best Inc. holdings, its held in Hangzhou Ali Venture Capital Co., Ltd which is owned 80% by Ma and 20% by Simon, not by the listco. They pledged their equity in the firm to one of the WFOE's so Hangzhou Ali Venture Capital Co is thus consolidated in the BABA annual report. That's not even disclosed in the BABA annual report, I ended up finding it in the Best Inc. reports.

cmlber

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Re: BABA - Alibaba
« Reply #186 on: September 18, 2018, 03:16:06 PM »
Its possible to do due-diligence it just takes a ridiculous amount of time to get to the bottom of anything they own. I just have to assume that none of the hedge funds that own this have done any kind of work or have read a single line from an Alibaba annual report. Take for example their Best Inc. holdings, its held in Hangzhou Ali Venture Capital Co., Ltd which is owned 80% by Ma and 20% by Simon, not by the listco. They pledged their equity in the firm to one of the WFOE's so Hangzhou Ali Venture Capital Co is thus consolidated in the BABA annual report. That's not even disclosed in the BABA annual report, I ended up finding it in the Best Inc. reports.

Where are you seeing this in the Best annual report?  Under the Share Ownership footnotes the Best 20-F says Alibaba's stake is owned by Alibaba Investment Limited, which is wholly owned Alibaba Group Holding Limited, the ListCo...


Cameron

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Re: BABA - Alibaba
« Reply #187 on: September 18, 2018, 03:43:00 PM »
Its possible to do due-diligence it just takes a ridiculous amount of time to get to the bottom of anything they own. I just have to assume that none of the hedge funds that own this have done any kind of work or have read a single line from an Alibaba annual report. Take for example their Best Inc. holdings, its held in Hangzhou Ali Venture Capital Co., Ltd which is owned 80% by Ma and 20% by Simon, not by the listco. They pledged their equity in the firm to one of the WFOE's so Hangzhou Ali Venture Capital Co is thus consolidated in the BABA annual report. That's not even disclosed in the BABA annual report, I ended up finding it in the Best Inc. reports.

Where are you seeing this in the Best annual report?  Under the Share Ownership footnotes the Best 20-F says Alibaba's stake is owned by Alibaba Investment Limited, which is wholly owned Alibaba Group Holding Limited, the ListCo...

The stock is a shell co., most of the business is run through its VIE.
https://www.qichacha.com/firm_ca73e5d4965cdf0c9c66938e38a3866c.html

cmlber

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Re: BABA - Alibaba
« Reply #188 on: September 18, 2018, 04:11:59 PM »
Its possible to do due-diligence it just takes a ridiculous amount of time to get to the bottom of anything they own. I just have to assume that none of the hedge funds that own this have done any kind of work or have read a single line from an Alibaba annual report. Take for example their Best Inc. holdings, its held in Hangzhou Ali Venture Capital Co., Ltd which is owned 80% by Ma and 20% by Simon, not by the listco. They pledged their equity in the firm to one of the WFOE's so Hangzhou Ali Venture Capital Co is thus consolidated in the BABA annual report. That's not even disclosed in the BABA annual report, I ended up finding it in the Best Inc. reports.

Where are you seeing this in the Best annual report?  Under the Share Ownership footnotes the Best 20-F says Alibaba's stake is owned by Alibaba Investment Limited, which is wholly owned Alibaba Group Holding Limited, the ListCo...

The stock is a shell co., most of the business is run through its VIE.
https://www.qichacha.com/firm_ca73e5d4965cdf0c9c66938e38a3866c.html

Isn't this the case for all Chinese listed technology companies?  They all have the VIE structure, what's the difference?  Alibaba the ListCo owns Alibaba Investment Limited which owns shares in BSTI on the Nasdaq which are worth $500MM, so are you saying the public shareholders in BSTI own absolutely nothing but are paying $2.3Bn for it? 

Cameron

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Re: BABA - Alibaba
« Reply #189 on: September 18, 2018, 04:30:28 PM »
Its possible to do due-diligence it just takes a ridiculous amount of time to get to the bottom of anything they own. I just have to assume that none of the hedge funds that own this have done any kind of work or have read a single line from an Alibaba annual report. Take for example their Best Inc. holdings, its held in Hangzhou Ali Venture Capital Co., Ltd which is owned 80% by Ma and 20% by Simon, not by the listco. They pledged their equity in the firm to one of the WFOE's so Hangzhou Ali Venture Capital Co is thus consolidated in the BABA annual report. That's not even disclosed in the BABA annual report, I ended up finding it in the Best Inc. reports.

Where are you seeing this in the Best annual report?  Under the Share Ownership footnotes the Best 20-F says Alibaba's stake is owned by Alibaba Investment Limited, which is wholly owned Alibaba Group Holding Limited, the ListCo...

The stock is a shell co., most of the business is run through its VIE.
https://www.qichacha.com/firm_ca73e5d4965cdf0c9c66938e38a3866c.html

Isn't this the case for all Chinese listed technology companies?  They all have the VIE structure, what's the difference?  Alibaba the ListCo owns Alibaba Investment Limited which owns shares in BSTI on the Nasdaq which are worth $500MM, so are you saying the public shareholders in BSTI own absolutely nothing but are paying $2.3Bn for it?
Welcome to Chinese ADR's you own an offshore shell company with contractual obligations not the actual Chinese operating assets.
You can thank Enron for changing how VIE's are consolidated as well.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 04:50:44 PM by Cameron »