Author Topic: KMI - Kinder Morgan  (Read 139266 times)

Spekulatius

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Re: KMI - Kinder Morgan
« Reply #390 on: April 12, 2018, 01:48:15 PM »
I had thought that the Vancouver people were better than all of us: greener, smarter, etc.

High gas prices? Traffic jams? What is this all about? You don't all drive EV's over there, share ride and use public transportation?

So is this hypocrisy or self-inflicted?

http://www.parkland.ca/en/investors/news/article?news-id=20171001005041

The Parkland refinery, which interestingly enough is in none other place than Burnaby B.C., produces 55,000 barrels/day from light sweet crude.

So here is a thought. Why doesn't B.C. start right now a project to upgrade (process heavy) and really increase capacity of that refinery?

This would really solve many problems:
1- Lower gasoline prices in Vancouver.
2- Export to the world refined products or higher value add and use best in class refining methods vs what we see in China with their tea pot refineries.
3- Heavy crude would be processed inland and avoid this dilbit spill debate over water.
4- Canada would supply the world with some of the strictest producing methods which help reduce CO2 emissions instead of letting other countries produce oil anyway while they flare natural gas.

Cardboard

A refinery is way dirtier than a pipeline and even nowadays, they stink to heaven. People who have been to Bakersfield , CA or New Jersey know.

I think Richard makes a good point about the piplinene not being in the self interest of the local population. BC and Vancouver are wonderful places and a spill would be tragedy.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 05:31:49 PM by Spekulatius »
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Cardboard

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Re: KMI - Kinder Morgan
« Reply #391 on: April 12, 2018, 03:31:48 PM »
You are wrong. Local populations don't dictate whatever they want based on their self interest or desire.

When they put up windmills, there are often people who are upset since it ruins their view, landscape and brings even noise. However, these mostly go forward and these people concerns are ignored.

There are nuclear plants close to communities. Is there anything more risky to human health than radiation? Yet they are there too and some pretty close to New York city unless you are unaware.

Florida, the Gulf of Mexico and California have beautiful beaches yet there are oil vessels carrying crude moving all around. Examples of that are worldwide.

Regarding a refinery or oil vessels, they are already there in Vancouver! So the stink and risk is already in place.

Cardboard

scorpioncapital

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Re: KMI - Kinder Morgan
« Reply #392 on: April 12, 2018, 03:34:26 PM »
It's very simple, BC was not offered enough of a bribe as is commonly done pretty much everywhere in the world. Don't fall for this enviromementalist stuff, they are the most money hungry of all ;)


Spekulatius

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Re: KMI - Kinder Morgan
« Reply #393 on: April 12, 2018, 05:43:10 PM »
You are wrong. Local populations don't dictate whatever they want based on their self interest or desire.

When they put up windmills, there are often people who are upset since it ruins their view, landscape and brings even noise. However, these mostly go forward and these people concerns are ignored.

There are nuclear plants close to communities. Is there anything more risky to human health than radiation? Yet they are there too and some pretty close to New York city unless you are unaware.

Florida, the Gulf of Mexico and California have beautiful beaches yet there are oil vessels carrying crude moving all around. Examples of that are worldwide.

Regarding a refinery or oil vessels, they are already there in Vancouver! So the stink and risk is already in place.

Cardboard

Itís a big difference if something is already there or if you build something new. Also keep in mind that while there are tankers in the Bay Area (Richmond) and LA to supply refineries, Offshore drilling pretty much stopped after an oil spill near Santa Barbara.

Local residents cannot always stop new projects,  it they can fight them with tooth and nails - sometimes they win, sometimes they lose. I am not saying it is right or wrong, but there is solely self interest at work, and I have to say, I canít blame them.

I am fairly sure that most board members would do the same if they were in the same situation, I donít have the impression that most here would put community interest before themselves, not if they work in the financial sector for sure. 8)
To be a realist, one has to believe in miracles.

RichardGibbons

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Re: KMI - Kinder Morgan
« Reply #394 on: April 12, 2018, 08:58:02 PM »
I think it's kind of interesting that Cardboard and Andrew Weaver (BC Green Party Leader) think refining the dilbit might solve this problem. Cardboard wants the refinery in BC, while Weaver wants it in Alberta.

Cardboard, how would you feel about the dilbit being refined in Alberta and only refined products being sent over the new pipeline? I'm curious if there is actually a compromise here.

That solution wouldn't make me completely happy (because I care about CO2 emissions), but it would be far more palatable than the current situation.

(I think the reason that this isn't a no-brainer solution for the pro-oil folks is because it's more costly to ship refined products.)

Spekulatius

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Re: KMI - Kinder Morgan
« Reply #395 on: April 13, 2018, 04:29:22 AM »
I think it's kind of interesting that Cardboard and Andrew Weaver (BC Green Party Leader) think refining the dilbit might solve this problem. Cardboard wants the refinery in BC, while Weaver wants it in Alberta.

Cardboard, how would you feel about the dilbit being refined in Alberta and only refined products being sent over the new pipeline? I'm curious if there is actually a compromise here.

That solution wouldn't make me completely happy (because I care about CO2 emissions), but it would be far more palatable than the current situation.

(I think the reason that this isn't a no-brainer solution for the pro-oil folks is because it's more costly to ship refined products.)

Building a refinery is very expensive and I think it is actually more dangerous to transport refined products, even in a pipeline, because they are more volatile and flammable. I agree that every solution should be discussed.
To be a realist, one has to believe in miracles.

Cardboard

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Re: KMI - Kinder Morgan
« Reply #396 on: April 13, 2018, 06:06:48 AM »
I am open to all kinds of solutions. And unless you missed it, the Sturgeon refinery is starting up this summer in Alberta.

Let's face it folks. The world wants oil and WILL get it no matter what Vancouver people think, say or do. That is the reality. So isn't better for Canada to be in the game and do it in a responsible manner than let other countries do it with much less care: flaring natural gas, little to no SOx regulation?

Right now Canada is U.S.'s ....... for oil. We give it away to them, they refine it and export it to the world. Even some to Canada! Then they fund protest groups so that it remains landlocked so that the good times can continue.

And it goes further than that. As a country, we are not even smart enough to be self sufficient. Canada imports over 700,000 barrels/day of oil to feed East Coast refineries, even some comes from the U.S.!

https://www.neb-one.gc.ca/nrg/ntgrtd/mrkt/snpsht/2017/02-04cndncrlmprtsdcln-eng.html

Is this done for economical reasons? No. Western Canadian Select sells right now for $52 U.S. (after quite a rally to reduce the discount!!!), Edmonton light sells for $61 U.S. and we pay $72 U.S. to import through the St Lawrence River. It took years to reverse the direction of flow of Line 9 from Sarnia to Montreal and expand capacity by a tiny 60,000 barrels/day (don't even think the expansion is done yet). Then people complain at the pump  ::)

Cardboard


Cardboard

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Re: KMI - Kinder Morgan
« Reply #397 on: April 13, 2018, 08:17:54 AM »
While they are worried about dilbit spills in double-hull vessels, see what our Vancouverites are up to:

https://georgiastrait.org/2013/12/the-greenest-city-or-the-biggest-coal-exporter-in-north-america/

Coal country baby!!! They must love Trump over there.

Cardboard

Cardboard

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Re: KMI - Kinder Morgan
« Reply #398 on: April 13, 2018, 09:18:56 AM »

RichardGibbons

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Re: KMI - Kinder Morgan
« Reply #399 on: April 13, 2018, 09:56:14 AM »
While they are worried about dilbit spills in double-hull vessels, see what our Vancouverites are up to:

https://georgiastrait.org/2013/12/the-greenest-city-or-the-biggest-coal-exporter-in-north-america/

Coal country baby!!! They must love Trump over there.

Hmm, so your argument is essentially, "environmentalists lost the fight against coal, therefore they shouldn't fight Kinder Morgan."  No wait, that doesn't make sense.  "Environmentalists lost the fight against coal, so they're hypocrites." No, that doesn't makes sense either. "Environmentalists lost the fight against coal, and dilbit isn't as bad as...."  No, that's not right....

I'm pretty confused about what your argument is here. Are you just suggesting that we should lower coal exports? Because if that's your point, I'm good with that.