Author Topic: KMI - Kinder Morgan  (Read 123808 times)

Zorrofan

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Re: KMI - Kinder Morgan
« Reply #400 on: April 13, 2018, 11:08:12 AM »
While they are worried about dilbit spills in double-hull vessels, see what our Vancouverites are up to:

https://georgiastrait.org/2013/12/the-greenest-city-or-the-biggest-coal-exporter-in-north-america/

Coal country baby!!! They must love Trump over there.

Hmm, so your argument is essentially, "environmentalists lost the fight against coal, therefore they shouldn't fight Kinder Morgan."  No wait, that doesn't make sense.  "Environmentalists lost the fight against coal, so they're hypocrites." No, that doesn't makes sense either. "Environmentalists lost the fight against coal, and dilbit isn't as bad as...."  No, that's not right....

I'm pretty confused about what your argument is here. Are you just suggesting that we should lower coal exports? Because if that's your point, I'm good with that.

Why are environmentalists opposed to oil sands production in Alberta, with some of the highest environmental standards in the world, but silent on the issue of oil being imported into Canada from developing countries with environmental standards that are much lower or even non-existent?  Why don't they protest about China and India continuing their coal plant build-out?


Cardboard

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Re: KMI - Kinder Morgan
« Reply #401 on: April 13, 2018, 06:27:11 PM »

RichardGibbons

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Re: KMI - Kinder Morgan
« Reply #402 on: April 13, 2018, 06:32:04 PM »
Why are environmentalists opposed to oil sands production in Alberta, with some of the highest environmental standards in the world, but silent on the issue of oil being imported into Canada from developing countries with environmental standards that are much lower or even non-existent?  Why don't they protest about China and India continuing their coal plant build-out?

One issues with the tar sands is that they're intrinsically bad for CO2--the highest CO2 emissions in North America. The number I've seen tossed about is that oil sands are 20% higher in emissions than traditional oil. I'm not sure how the math on emissions works on dilbit shipped east from Alberta compared to lighter oil shipped from the Middle East or Africa, but if you find the calculations, I'd be interested.

That said, the likely reason the environmentalists don't protest these other things you're talking about is because they want their protests to have an effect. Canadians protesting Chinese coal plants and oil imports is unlikely to have any effect. (And really, at this point, China seems to understand the problem with pollution better than the USA.)

RichardGibbons

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Re: KMI - Kinder Morgan
« Reply #403 on: April 13, 2018, 06:56:31 PM »
My favorite bit of hypocrisy in this pipeline dispute is Notley banning BC wines because she considered it illegal for provinces to ban shipment of other province's products.

My second favorite bit of hypocrisy in this is Horgan saying, "We want to see if what we want to do is legal", while Notley and Trudeau loudly proclaim that it's illegal but then try really hard not to actually argue their case in front of the Supreme Court. If it's so obvious, they should be delighted that Horgan wants to put the question before the courts and do what they can to clear the way.

(I imagine that Notley and Trudeau are kind of creeped out by this decision that says that not only can BC have special environmental requirements, but also that it must take them into account when reviewing pipelines and not defer environmental issues to the federal government. It's not the exact same issue, but it is similar.)

Cardboard

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Re: KMI - Kinder Morgan
« Reply #404 on: April 16, 2018, 07:59:23 AM »
Following the law?

When a project has been approved by a government, both provincial and federal, and that the company has already spent $1 billion on it then it seems that we have breach of contract.

What it means IMO is that Kinder Morgan Canada should sue B.C. for all its costs and lost future revenues/profits. Moreover, the Canadian government and Alberta should also sue B.C. for all its costs and future lost taxes/royalty revenues.

The Canadian government should also pass a new law declaring illegal any existing and future coalition government. After all, we are a democratic society. It should not be permitted for independent parties to unite and form an illegitimate government after voters have cast their vote.

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RichardGibbons

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Re: KMI - Kinder Morgan
« Reply #405 on: April 16, 2018, 08:43:31 AM »
Following the law?

When a project has been approved by a government, both provincial and federal, and that the company has already spent $1 billion on it then it seems that we have breach of contract.

You do know that the only thing stopping Kinder Morgan from building the pipeline now is Kinder Morgan, right?  (Well, there are protesters, but the ones who are protesting illegally are being arrested, which seems reasonable.)

The Canadian government should also pass a new law declaring illegal any existing and future coalition government. After all, we are a democratic society. It should not be permitted for independent parties to unite and form an illegitimate government after voters have cast their vote.

LOL, yeah OK.  We should get rid of democracy--stop the MLAs who received the majority of the both votes and the seats from forming government--because Cardboard doesn't like the results.

jeffmori7

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Re: KMI - Kinder Morgan
« Reply #406 on: April 16, 2018, 07:32:07 PM »
Hey Cardboard, I don't know how is your French, but here is a paper I pretty much agree with: http://mi.lapresse.ca/screens/a12d1969-dd02-4953-b002-6540401f1697__7C___0.html?utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=Microsite+Share&utm_content=Screen

We have had those discussions in the past about environmentalists blocking pipelines. While I am not pro-pipelines, I do agree that it is much better to work toward reducing our petrol consumption, making them obsolete, than fighting ad nauseam to block them. What I am afraid though is that we are not doing enough and that IMO should be part of the governement job to accelerate the transition toward a zero carbon world. Seeing the PLC wanting to invest in pipelines is quite weird. I can understand them not wanting to be at war with Alberta, but there are some limits. And when Trudeau says that we don't have to compromise between environment and economy, he forget to say that's what we've been doing for a many decades already.

And I do agree that it is quite hypocritical from BC (or Quebec) on that matter to be heavily against pipelines while not putting all efforts to reduce our needs for oil. Still, it is legitimate to ask questions about assets that are riky, particularly when you are just a way of passage and that it doesn't provide a lot of benefit to you, as would have been the case for Energy East in Quebec for example.

scorpioncapital

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Re: KMI - Kinder Morgan
« Reply #407 on: April 17, 2018, 03:33:37 AM »
It's funny even Russian assets are outperforming Canadian, both very resource dependent economies. I find it ironic that people think Canada has less political and economic risk than so called emerging markets where holding up a project like this has virtually zero chance of ever happening. So much for the conventional wisdom :)






Cardboard

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Re: KMI - Kinder Morgan
« Reply #408 on: April 17, 2018, 06:10:49 AM »
Jeffmori7,

That is a good article and quite balanced. I am surprised that you pretty much agree with it.

As the article states, oil demand worldwide and even in NA keeps on growing. It will be close to 2 million barrels/day this year.

So Canada as a nation has to ask itself: Should we keep our resources in the ground while everybody else including Norway keep on expanding their production and make large profits for their population?

And for Canada another very specific question needs to be asked: Should we continue to accept a very significant discount (20-30%) for all our actual exported production while everyone else is obtaining Brent pricing?

Considering that Canada is only producing around 4% of global production, it will not impact pricing nor reduce supply much (as someone else will pick it up) if we keep on restricting our supply to hold some higher moral ground on CO2 emissions than other countries.

So yes, the long term solution is about transitioning power generation and transportation to non-fossil fuels. However, this will not happen overnight as it will require new technologies to be developed.

Also, something wonderful that has happened with ICE vehicles over the last 10 years is a significant reduction in consumption. A car that used to consume 12 litres/100 km is now at 8. However, the trend that we are seeing is that consumers are now buying the larger vehicles since consumption is less! How do you fight this? More taxes on larger vehicles?

Regarding Energy East you are quite wrong in your conclusion. This would have essentially stopped imports of oil into Quebec, Ontario and the Maritimes. Pretty large savings for consumers considering that even if less "trapped", pricing to Eastern refineries of WCSB oil would have been quite a bit lower than Brent. This would have had major benefits for Canada and Quebec.

Finally, Quebec receives around $13 billion/year from Alberta and Saskatchewan in equalization payments since they collect royalties from oil production. If Quebec did not receive these amounts, $7/day/child daycare could become a thing of the past and a myriad of other services could also disappear. So I believe that Quebec is addicted to this money and it comes from oil... In a way, the more oil is produced, the more Quebec benefits.

Then ask yourself this question: In a few decades from now when fossil fuels is no longer burned. Do you believe that Quebec will send equalization payments to Alberta each year since it is blessed with a geography proper to hydro-electric power?

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Cardboard

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Re: KMI - Kinder Morgan
« Reply #409 on: April 17, 2018, 09:54:51 AM »
Since B.C. wants to act like its own country, it is time for the Prairies to unite and form their own union.

https://www.bnn.ca/saskatchewan-threatens-to-cut-off-oil-to-b-c-amid-pipeline-fight-1.1059468

Put a pipeline from Edmonton to Churchill, Manitoba, get nuclear powered ice breakers like the Russians and ship oil to Europe year around.

Then they can keep their equalization payments and provide more to their own folks.

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