Author Topic: The "Hopeless" Millenials  (Read 12097 times)

bizaro86

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Re: The "Hopeless" Millenials
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2018, 05:46:59 PM »
It's interesting to me that many of the issues mentioned here are largely US problems.

I'm a millenial. I paid ~6k per year plus books (and I made money on my books...). That was for an engineering degree from a top tier Canadian school. Now it's more like 8k. I made enough money in the summers to graduate debt free, which would have been impossible at the 40k tuition level a similar US school would have been.


rb

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Re: The "Hopeless" Millenials
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2018, 06:27:44 PM »
It's interesting to me that many of the issues mentioned here are largely US problems.

I'm a millenial. I paid ~6k per year plus books (and I made money on my books...). That was for an engineering degree from a top tier Canadian school. Now it's more like 8k. I made enough money in the summers to graduate debt free, which would have been impossible at the 40k tuition level a similar US school would have been.
Yep, the education thing is mostly a US problem. Higher education is quite affordable around the world (though I am concerned by trends in Canada). I can empathize with the situation in the US but that's about it. They've decided to screw their younger generation out of money. They did it to themselves and don't want to change it. Then so be it. Enjoy.

SharperDingaan

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Re: The "Hopeless" Millenials
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2018, 09:21:33 AM »
A good part of this is also kids caving to what their PARENTS want, versus what THEY want.
Mom/dad want to boast about their son/daughter the 'lawyer/doctor/accountant'; when the kid really doesn't have a chance, or the network support - and just wants to be a tradesperson. Over-dependency, & fear of kids moving out & the resultant 'empty nest', producing gilded cages.

Part of education is 'growing up' - and 'cutting the apron-strings'.
Sadly, not something that is typically done well accross large segments of American society.

SD

DTEJD1997

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Re: The "Hopeless" Millenials
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2018, 04:13:16 PM »
A good part of this is also kids caving to what their PARENTS want, versus what THEY want.
Mom/dad want to boast about their son/daughter the 'lawyer/doctor/accountant'; when the kid really doesn't have a chance, or the network support - and just wants to be a tradesperson. Over-dependency, & fear of kids moving out & the resultant 'empty nest', producing gilded cages.

Part of education is 'growing up' - and 'cutting the apron-strings'.
Sadly, not something that is typically done well accross large segments of American society.

SD

SD:

You are right on many points, but let me add a few:

A).  The education industrial complex is TOTALLY out of control in America.  It is gobbling up a SHOCKING amount of resources and large parts of it are producing NOTHING worth anything.

B). In order to continue to gobble up society's resources, the education industrial complex has engaged in wide scale deception.  A good example of this is all the lawsuits brought against law skools for lying about the results of their graduates.  If the truth was widely known, over 1/2 of USA law skools would shut down.

C). Another example of the gobbling up of scarce resources is the public skool system in Detroit.  They take in a shocking amount of $$$ per student, and it is simply a failure factory.  It is a disgrace what has been going on, and what is going on.  "A National Disgrace" is the title to Dan Rather's report on the DPS. 

Please see:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xypiZ-hqdY

So yeah, millenials and their parents can take some of the blame...but don't forget about the teachers, administrators and the education industrial complex...they have a lot to answer for.

rb

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Re: The "Hopeless" Millenials
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2018, 05:28:30 PM »
SD:

You are right on many points, but let me add a few:

A).  The education industrial complex is TOTALLY out of control in America.  It is gobbling up a SHOCKING amount of resources and large parts of it are producing NOTHING worth anything.

B). In order to continue to gobble up society's resources, the education industrial complex has engaged in wide scale deception.  A good example of this is all the lawsuits brought against law skools for lying about the results of their graduates.  If the truth was widely known, over 1/2 of USA law skools would shut down.

C). Another example of the gobbling up of scarce resources is the public skool system in Detroit.  They take in a shocking amount of $$$ per student, and it is simply a failure factory.  It is a disgrace what has been going on, and what is going on.  "A National Disgrace" is the title to Dan Rather's report on the DPS. 

Please see:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xypiZ-hqdY

So yeah, millenials and their parents can take some of the blame...but don't forget about the teachers, administrators and the education industrial complex...they have a lot to answer for.
Yea, but you guys put Betsy DeVos in charge of Education right? And whatever measures Obama put in place to restrict downright fraudulent practices by for profit "universities" were quickly reversed by the Trump administration right? If you don't want to help yourselves then so be it. But then don't cry about it.

doc75

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Re: The "Hopeless" Millenials
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2018, 06:12:53 PM »
A good part of this is also kids caving to what their PARENTS want, versus what THEY want.
Mom/dad want to boast about their son/daughter the 'lawyer/doctor/accountant'; when the kid really doesn't have a chance, or the network support - and just wants to be a tradesperson. Over-dependency, & fear of kids moving out & the resultant 'empty nest', producing gilded cages.

I teach a lot of would-be engineers/accountants/doctors. Many don't have a chance (very weak background skills + lack of effort) ,and in many cases parental pressure has certainly led to them being in such "professional" programs of study. But in my experience very few of these marginal students "just want to be a tradesperson".  They almost uniformly don't know what they want.  All that's clear is that it's a huge waste for them to be paying tuition at this particular point in their lives, for university and likely also for tradeschool.  With engineering, the bubble bursts early for the weakest students, since they flunk out of the early prerequisite courses. But they typically then switch into other programs where they have even less interest, and eventually leave school without a degree -- a true "good money after bad" situation.

Just my anecdotal observations.  I've tried to get some hard data on various student success metrics and found that the universities are very reluctant to share these numbers -- even with their employees.

At every level of the education system, along with all the waste that is so commonly bemoaned,  there are a lot of smart people who are honestly trying to make things better,  often working tirelessly to do so.  But there are so many vicious cycles operating throughout the system that it's really a Sisyphean battle.   

DTEJD1997

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Re: The "Hopeless" Millenials
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2018, 08:45:07 PM »
SD:

You are right on many points, but let me add a few:

A).  The education industrial complex is TOTALLY out of control in America.  It is gobbling up a SHOCKING amount of resources and large parts of it are producing NOTHING worth anything.

B). In order to continue to gobble up society's resources, the education industrial complex has engaged in wide scale deception.  A good example of this is all the lawsuits brought against law skools for lying about the results of their graduates.  If the truth was widely known, over 1/2 of USA law skools would shut down.

C). Another example of the gobbling up of scarce resources is the public skool system in Detroit.  They take in a shocking amount of $$$ per student, and it is simply a failure factory.  It is a disgrace what has been going on, and what is going on.  "A National Disgrace" is the title to Dan Rather's report on the DPS. 

Please see:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xypiZ-hqdY

So yeah, millenials and their parents can take some of the blame...but don't forget about the teachers, administrators and the education industrial complex...they have a lot to answer for.
Yea, but you guys put Betsy DeVos in charge of Education right? And whatever measures Obama put in place to restrict downright fraudulent practices by for profit "universities" were quickly reversed by the Trump administration right? If you don't want to help yourselves then so be it. But then don't cry about it.

How is fraud a "right wing" or "left wing" idea/policy?  Trump has done some very questionable things regarding "education" for sure...but so have the Clintons.  The amount of money the Clintons got from "for profit" education make Trump look like an amateur...

Of course, most of the "educators" are liberal/left wing.  They will rail against "the man", but the funny thing is that they are "the man"!  They have set up most colleges like a feudal or plantation system.  I am talking about the tenured/adjunct professor situation.  A lot of adjuncts make LESS than minimum wage.  Compare the amount of work they do and what they get paid compared to tenured profs...

OR look at the primary education system.  Most of those teachers belong to unions.  The unions DO NOT have the needs of the students in consideration.

Most people, when they learn of what is going on with education find it shocking, does not matter if they are right wing or left wing in their political views.


rb

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Re: The "Hopeless" Millenials
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2018, 09:11:29 PM »
Yea, but you guys put Betsy DeVos in charge of Education right? And whatever measures Obama put in place to restrict downright fraudulent practices by for profit "universities" were quickly reversed by the Trump administration right? If you don't want to help yourselves then so be it. But then don't cry about it.

How is fraud a "right wing" or "left wing" idea/policy?  Trump has done some very questionable things regarding "education" for sure...but so have the Clintons.  The amount of money the Clintons got from "for profit" education make Trump look like an amateur...

Of course, most of the "educators" are liberal/left wing.  They will rail against "the man", but the funny thing is that they are "the man"!  They have set up most colleges like a feudal or plantation system.  I am talking about the tenured/adjunct professor situation.  A lot of adjuncts make LESS than minimum wage.  Compare the amount of work they do and what they get paid compared to tenured profs...

OR look at the primary education system.  Most of those teachers belong to unions.  The unions DO NOT have the needs of the students in consideration.

Most people, when they learn of what is going on with education find it shocking, does not matter if they are right wing or left wing in their political views.
I'm not saying it's a left wing/right wing. It is the current administration and when you're in power you own the problem. But they've been atrocious on education. Why would they roll back the protections on fraud? Maybe because they're bad people. But that still misses the point. The bigger point is why did they think they could do it and get away with it (they were right btw)? It's because the people don't care. If the people don't care why should they expect anyone else to care for them?

On a separate point since you brought it up. Of course the professors unions don't care about the students. They are paid by the professors to care about the professors. That is their job. If they want a union to look after their interests the students should start their own.

doc75

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Re: The "Hopeless" Millenials
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2018, 09:51:52 PM »
Of course, most of the "educators" are liberal/left wing.  They will rail against "the man", but the funny thing is that they are "the man"!  They have set up most colleges like a feudal or plantation system.  I am talking about the tenured/adjunct professor situation.  A lot of adjuncts make LESS than minimum wage.  Compare the amount of work they do and what they get paid compared to tenured profs...

Who?  Who set up the colleges like a feudal system??   And why is it like a feudal system?

With respect, I think you're misrepresenting the adjunct situation.  It's a shitty career, no doubt -- but it's also not really intended to be a career.  Adjunct faculty are usually either (1) young people who are trying to find their place in academia (i.e. in a holding pattern, waiting for a full time position to open), or (2) working professionals or retirees who enjoy the teaching and a little extra cash.  The biggest problem is that too many people get stuck in case (1).   A secondary problem is that many well-meaning adjuncts put far more time into the job than is reasonably expected (although the opposite is also true sometimes!).  Teaching can take up an arbitrary amount of time if you let it.


rkbabang

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Re: The "Hopeless" Millenials
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2018, 05:43:25 AM »
Yea, but you guys put Betsy DeVos in charge of Education right? And whatever measures Obama put in place to restrict downright fraudulent practices by for profit "universities" were quickly reversed by the Trump administration right? If you don't want to help yourselves then so be it. But then don't cry about it.

How is fraud a "right wing" or "left wing" idea/policy?  Trump has done some very questionable things regarding "education" for sure...but so have the Clintons.  The amount of money the Clintons got from "for profit" education make Trump look like an amateur...

Of course, most of the "educators" are liberal/left wing.  They will rail against "the man", but the funny thing is that they are "the man"!  They have set up most colleges like a feudal or plantation system.  I am talking about the tenured/adjunct professor situation.  A lot of adjuncts make LESS than minimum wage.  Compare the amount of work they do and what they get paid compared to tenured profs...

OR look at the primary education system.  Most of those teachers belong to unions.  The unions DO NOT have the needs of the students in consideration.

Most people, when they learn of what is going on with education find it shocking, does not matter if they are right wing or left wing in their political views.
I'm not saying it's a left wing/right wing. It is the current administration and when you're in power you own the problem. But they've been atrocious on education. Why would they roll back the protections on fraud? Maybe because they're bad people. But that still misses the point. The bigger point is why did they think they could do it and get away with it (they were right btw)? It's because the people don't care. If the people don't care why should they expect anyone else to care for them?

On a separate point since you brought it up. Of course the professors unions don't care about the students. They are paid by the professors to care about the professors. That is their job. If they want a union to look after their interests the students should start their own.

Sorry rb, but everything that is wrong with the education system has been that way for a very long time.  Trump has yet to make a difference for the good or the bad.  Your Trump Derangement Syndrome is showing again.