Author Topic: A couple easy fixes to CEO Pay and college costs  (Read 2752 times)

meiroy

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Re: A couple easy fixes to CEO Pay and college costs
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2018, 09:24:31 PM »

Eric, I think your recent encounters with attorneys is affecting your feelings towards them. I don't blame you for that though!


My Sacramento divorce attorney charges a crippling $450 per hour.  It is the going rate.

Eric:

That very well may be.  I am also sorry to hear that you even the need the services of a divorce attorney...

HOWEVER, I am going to guess that you are going to a top 10% divorce attorney...perhaps even a top 1% divorce attorney.  Sure, those guys MIGHT make plenty of money, but they are far removed from the average.


So to get favorable justice, or any justice at all, one has to have the resources. This is indeed a significant social problem.

I just read the other day about someone innocent who spent 15 years in jail, mainly due to his lousy public defense lawyer. if he could have afforded a top lawyer he would not have spent one day inside.

Many of these top lawyers got to where they are thanks to nepotism, family networks, connection to judges etc. If you are the son of a well-known judge, you're going to be making 40k a year? Unlikely. Another social problem.










DTEJD1997

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Re: A couple easy fixes to CEO Pay and college costs
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2018, 10:36:34 PM »
Hey all:

Here is a very interesting fact about law skools.  Tuition for the worst is almost the same as it is for the best.

For example, Harvard is arguably the best OR is in the top 3 schools.  Their tuition is about $63k per year.

Compare that with Cooley Law Skool's tuition rate is about $53k per year.  In the year 2018, in many people's opinion, Cooley is perhaps not the worst law skool, but it is very close to it. 

Please see: https://abovethelaw.com/2017/12/the-10-worst-law-schools-in-the-country-2017/

So Cooley is charging close (85%) to what Harvard is charging.  Is an education from Cooley worth what one from Harvard is? 

Cooley is not alone in charging this rate of tuition.  University of Detroit/Mercy is charging about $43k per year in tuition.

Why is there so little difference in the cost of tuition?  Compare the opportunities/wages  of Harvard graduates compared to those of Cooley, UofD, or any other bottom half skool.

There is a MASSIVE difference of outcomes for graduates, but amazingly, tuition rates are shockingly similar.

boilermaker75

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Re: A couple easy fixes to CEO Pay and college costs
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2018, 05:07:52 AM »
And where do the dollars come from that pay the salaries of faculty to do research? Undergraduate tuition.  (Today it is not uncommon for star faculty to be making well over $300,000 per year with many not ever teaching undergraduates.) Much of the increased cost of undergrads going to college is the cost of the ever-greater research programs, and star faculty salaries, needed to maintain, or increase, rankings.

I suspect as part of this arms race is faculty teach fewer classes per year. This means a larger faculty and each faculty member has more time to devote to research.

If someone is a big enough star to be earning $300k+, then I sure as hell hope they're not teaching many undergraduate courses.  That would be pretty nuts. 


If the $300k was coming from other sources besides undergraduate tuition.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 05:14:21 AM by boilermaker75 »

doc75

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doc75

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Re: A couple easy fixes to CEO Pay and college costs
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2018, 06:57:24 AM »
And where do the dollars come from that pay the salaries of faculty to do research? Undergraduate tuition.  (Today it is not uncommon for star faculty to be making well over $300,000 per year with many not ever teaching undergraduates.) Much of the increased cost of undergrads going to college is the cost of the ever-greater research programs, and star faculty salaries, needed to maintain, or increase, rankings.

Could you please provide a source for this claim?  Thanks in advance. 


Cigarbutt

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Re: A couple easy fixes to CEO Pay and college costs
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2018, 08:54:53 AM »
A couple links I quickly found that may be of interest:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanlewis/2017/02/17/u-s-colleges-where-does-the-money-go/#28d8082073ca

https://www.businessinsider.com/why-is-college-so-expensive-2018-4

-Complementary link as the "skill premium" is not what it used to be:
http://www.ncsl.org/Portals/1/Documents/educ/StudentLoanDebtBrief.pdf

-For the beginning of an answer concerning expense categories evolution over time, the Delta-Cost Project has produced reports over the long term. Here's what seems to be the latest version:
https://www.air.org/system/files/downloads/report/Delta-Cost-Trends-in-College%20Spending-January-2016.pdf
The student services category continues to be the largest driver in rising costs.

boilermaker75

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Re: A couple easy fixes to CEO Pay and college costs
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2018, 09:17:53 AM »
And where do the dollars come from that pay the salaries of faculty to do research? Undergraduate tuition.  (Today it is not uncommon for star faculty to be making well over $300,000 per year with many not ever teaching undergraduates.) Much of the increased cost of undergrads going to college is the cost of the ever-greater research programs, and star faculty salaries, needed to maintain, or increase, rankings.

Could you please provide a source for this claim?  Thanks in advance.

I don't have a source. My comments are personal observations of being a faculty member, and administrator, for 35 years at a research university.

In my department we have 100 faculty. The average teaching load is 0.9 courses per semester counting undergraduate and graduate courses. This Fall semester we are teaching about 45 undergraduate classes using 42 of these faculty, we have three non-faculty Ph.Ds. who do some teaching. (We do not teach any lecture courses with graduate students.) Some faculty aren’t teaching and some are teaching graduate courses. Many of those graduate courses have enrollments of around 10-15 and center on the facultys’ research. This is a guess, but our undergraduate class sizes are probably approaching 100 on average.

These days, ever present is thinking about rankings and how what we do impact rankings. Undergraduate education is never part of that discussion.

I was speaking with a colleague last week. He told me how he received a teaching award 12 years ago when he was an assistant professor. His mentor took him out to lunch and he thought he was going to be congratulated. He was told to “knock it off.”

The faculty in my department provide about 10% of their AY salary from external research contracts, but most spend at least 75% of their time on their research programs. There are incentives for providing AY support, less teaching. 90% of the salaries of the faculty in my department come from undergraduate tuition.

I would like to see data on average teaching load pre-1980 compared to today. I would guess the teaching load is less today resulting in more faculty to provide the same teaching. In this way more research, which impacts rankings, can be performed.



SharperDingaan

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Re: A couple easy fixes to CEO Pay and college costs
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2018, 01:00:32 PM »
A few points.

It used to be that higher education was only for the wealthy. Student volumes were low, tuition/living costs were paid out of family resources, classes were small, and professors primarily taught. It was essentially a 'who you know' closed shop, perhaps best exemplified by the Oxfords & Harvards of the time, that produced a very small supply to meet a growing demand. It essentially institutionalized privilege and arrogance.

Over time the solution has been more resources to increase supply. What used to be the 'best & brightest' 5% of outsiders sponsored by elites (Rhodes, Beits, etc.) to run empires in the commonwealth, became the average jane/joe sponsored by governments. Raise the average education level of the nations workforce, make higher value goods as a result, and rake in a small % of the much larger pie as the tax to pay for it.  What we have today, is essentially education as an industrial commodity.

Ultimately every student/family has to decide what is right for them, and student debt is the mechanism of accountabilty; as in all of lifes other daily decisions, there is no free pass for 'young and dumb'. All that has changed, is that higher education is now more accessable than it used to be. Highly desirable.

We can bemoan the number of schools, the pay of professors/admin, the level of debt after graduation, erosion of standards, etc; but no one forces a student to go to school, or continue with school right after graduating high school. Gap years are common around the world, & are taken with the intent of the student using it to both mature - and experience life away from home; before deciding on what they would like to do. 

Similarly, resolving our mistakes is a life skill we all have to learn.
There is no 'undo' button, and millions of people do this - every day. Of course if you're the person with the debt problem it sucks, but you HAVE made your own bed. Hence debt as the mechanism for accountability; YES it sucks, but it works - and extremely well.

SD

   
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 01:02:37 PM by SharperDingaan »

DTEJD1997

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Re: A couple easy fixes to CEO Pay and college costs
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2018, 01:23:00 PM »
A few points.

It used to be that higher education was only for the wealthy. Student volumes were low, tuition/living costs were paid out of family resources, classes were small, and professors primarily taught. It was essentially a 'who you know' closed shop, perhaps best exemplified by the Oxfords & Harvards of the time, that produced a very small supply to meet a growing demand. It essentially institutionalized privilege and arrogance.

Over time the solution has been more resources to increase supply. What used to be the 'best & brightest' 5% of outsiders sponsored by elites (Rhodes, Beits, etc.) to run empires in the commonwealth, became the average jane/joe sponsored by governments. Raise the average education level of the nations workforce, make higher value goods as a result, and rake in a small % of the much larger pie as the tax to pay for it.  What we have today, is essentially education as an industrial commodity.

Ultimately every student/family has to decide what is right for them, and student debt is the mechanism of accountabilty; as in all of lifes other daily decisions, there is no free pass for 'young and dumb'. All that has changed, is that higher education is now more accessible than it used to be. Highly desirable.

We can bemoan the number of schools, the pay of professors/admin, the level of debt after graduation, erosion of standards, etc; but no one forces a student to go to school, or continue with school right after graduating high school. Gap years are common around the world, & are taken with the intent of the student using it to both mature - and experience life away from home; before deciding on what they would like to do. 

Similarly, resolving our mistakes is a life skill we all have to learn.
There is no 'undo' button, and millions of people do this - every day. Of course if you're the person with the debt problem it sucks, but you HAVE made your own bed. Hence debt as the mechanism for accountability; YES it sucks, but it works - and extremely well.

SD

 

SD:

If I recall correctly, you are based out of Europe?

There are a few things going on with college education in America that you might not be aware of, and would negate the points you made in the prior post.

A). Student loan debt is NOT discharged in bankruptcy.  For all intents and purposes, you either pay it, OR you go on IBR for 20+ years.  Why is student debt one of the very few debts that can't be discharged?  What if you receive a DEFECTIVE education?  Once you've paid the tuition, there is no recourse...the educators have NO skin in the game.

The government should not be in the business of underwriting these massive loans.  If the education that a school provides is so valuable, let them underwrite it.  Unrestricted government lending has been a large contributing factor in the rise of the cost of an education.


B). A large number of universities are lying and being highly deceptive about the outcomes for their graduates.  This is done to get people to enroll and pay the tuition.

In order for a market to work properly, you have to have transparency. 

"Educators" should be held to the same standards in advertising that carpet salesman, used car lots, financial advisors and others are.  They should NOT have a free pass.

When the universities are not being forthright about the outcomes, you don't have a functioning market.  This has got to stop.  The word is getting out, but it is getting out slowly.

Fix these two problems and then you will go a long way towards getting education functioning as a proper market. 


SharperDingaan

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Re: A couple easy fixes to CEO Pay and college costs
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2018, 04:00:01 PM »
I'm Canadian based, but the family is UK orientated.
This will sound harsh, but I don't really have a problem with either A) or B)

A) Education is a life-long investment in yourself, collateralized against your life-long working income. Hence going backrupt today does not mean that one could not repay the debt over ones remaining working life, and it should not be a 'convenience' by which one can absolve ones debt obligation. Education loans are unique; the education cannot be seperated from you, and sold to offset the debt. 

B) Agreed there is predatory educational lending, but ultimately it's the borrower who signs the loan agreement. It's also a reach to blame the lender when the borrower is borrowing repeatedly, over multiple years, while becoming progressively more educated over the period. The lender may be 80% responsible in Year 1 (estimate), but by Year 4 it's maybe 20% at best (as the borrower is both actively participating and benefiting for it).

In most places, outstanding education loans are forgiven upon retirement (65) as the working life is over. There are usually industry solutions as well, in return for servicing under-represented or under-served geographic areas. When there aren't, it's to the profession to deliver; as too much supply (lawyers, accountants, docs, etc) just devalues the market for everyone.

Not great for the indebted, but ultimately the dicipline of the accountability mechanism stays in place.
Sorry!

SD


« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 02:49:52 AM by SharperDingaan »