Author Topic: Alabama just passed a near-total abortion ban; No exceptions for rape/incest  (Read 8159 times)

cwericb

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   “This is not the difference at all.  Your logic has broken down.  We all believe we have the right to impose certain views on others.  That is why rape, murder, theft and drunk driving are illegal.” 

Not my logic that is broken.

The difference is, in part, because rape, murder, theft and drunk driving are all pretty well universally understood to be unacceptable. I don’t see millions of rapists and murderers protesting that rape and murder be legalized and millions more agreeing with them.

Furthermore those are crimes against individual citizens - not unborn fetuses. Laws against abortion are a violation of an individual’s rights. Now you may believe that a fetus is a live human being entitled to all the rights of an individual. Many others disagree.

The majority of those in the anti abortionist camp have been brought up Roman Catholic and the movement is widely supported by the Church. One might suggest that given the history of the Church it does not in any way give it a moral high ground to dictate morality to others.


Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason. - Mark Twain


LC

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that is because you are not the one being killed
So you're OK telling rape victims they must give birth to that fetus?
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Tim Eriksen

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that is because you are not the one being killed
So you're OK telling rape victims they must give birth to that fetus?

I am completely comfortable having laws that forbid the killing of an innocent human being.  Rape is sick but so is the intentional taking of an innocent human being.  You may think my response is cold, but I would contend the opposite is the case - supporting the killing of an innocent baby is cold.)  I would gladly pay higher taxes or voluntary give to help them emotionally, financially, etc.

Let's be clear, this is not the real issue for those who are pro-abortion rights or they would agree to accept an abortion ban except in the cases of rape and incest (And health of the mother).  The truth for nearly all is they want abortion for any reason the mother chooses, and for many, whenever the mother chooses.       

So you're okay with killing innocent unborn children because their mother doesn't want them, thinks they would be inconvenient, or may have a disability?  Why not a newborn?   

Tim Eriksen

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   “This is not the difference at all.  Your logic has broken down.  We all believe we have the right to impose certain views on others.  That is why rape, murder, theft and drunk driving are illegal.” 

Not my logic that is broken.

The difference is, in part, because rape, murder, theft and drunk driving are all pretty well universally understood to be unacceptable. I don’t see millions of rapists and murderers protesting that rape and murder be legalized and millions more agreeing with them.

Furthermore those are crimes against individual citizens - not unborn fetuses. Laws against abortion are a violation of an individual’s rights. Now you may believe that a fetus is a live human being entitled to all the rights of an individual. Many others disagree.

The majority of those in the anti abortionist camp have been brought up Roman Catholic and the movement is widely supported by the Church. One might suggest that given the history of the Church it does not in any way give it a moral high ground to dictate morality to others.

You cut off the rest of the quote and you failed to grasp what was written.  Your logic broke down.  You were right on the definition of life being central.  But then you had a break down and your conclusion was pro-life people want to impose their values on others, with the implication that pro-choice do not.  I simply pointed out that pro-abortion rights people are also imposing their values on others too (the unborn are living and are human).  Thus your third point failed to capture the essential difference between the two positions.

Obviously you have some other misunderstandings as well.   I would suggest you do some research on the make up of the pro life community.  It is not majority Catholic.       

stahleyp

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   “This is not the difference at all.  Your logic has broken down.  We all believe we have the right to impose certain views on others.  That is why rape, murder, theft and drunk driving are illegal.” 

Not my logic that is broken.

The difference is, in part, because rape, murder, theft and drunk driving are all pretty well universally understood to be unacceptable. I don’t see millions of rapists and murderers protesting that rape and murder be legalized and millions more agreeing with them.

Furthermore those are crimes against individual citizens - not unborn fetuses. Laws against abortion are a violation of an individual’s rights. Now you may believe that a fetus is a live human being entitled to all the rights of an individual. Many others disagree.

The majority of those in the anti abortionist camp have been brought up Roman Catholic and the movement is widely supported by the Church. One might suggest that given the history of the Church it does not in any way give it a moral high ground to dictate morality to others.

First, when do you feel abortion should be illegal? lc, safety, I'd like for you guys to answer, too, please.

What's your definition of life? Like I said, if the fetus isn't living...I don't know what it's doing then. I see no reason to abort if it's not living.

Also, why do you feel laws against abortion are against a woman's right? Does the mother have the "right" to kill her 1 day old baby? It's the same DNA, same human as she had before - just older. So if you give the mother the right to terminate her child, what gives you the ability to take away that same "right" later on? We're talking about a change in location here, after all.

If you give her the right and ability to do it once, why are you forcing your views and values on her at a later date to not terminate the child? She brought it into the world. Why should she not be able to take it out of the world? Look at all these men trying to tell women what they can and can't do!

Since the baby is just part of her body (as LC and watcht seem to think), why are you telling her what to do with her body even if this body part is 5 years old?

I'm not Catholic, for what it's worth. But, I do try to be fair and rational. ;)
Paul

Castanza

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I am only using these extreme examples to illustrate that the logic "a fetus is a human life at t=0" is incorrect.

Therefore we need to come up with a different framework to address this issue.

Currently, the implemented framework is to (generally) provide legal and safe abortions during the first trimester, and institute stipulations on the second and third trimesters.

That seems pretty fair to me.

As I've stated before the viability argument is dumb and unfounded. A better rule would be 6 weeks or when the heart beat first develops. I recognize their is no perfect solution. But the goal is as a few as possible and as close to perfect as possible. Ending abortions that are simply done out of convenience sake is the goal I would like to see reached. That seems pretty fair to me.

Castanza

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that is because you are not the one being killed
So you're OK telling rape victims they must give birth to that fetus?

Does killing the child make the rape "go away"? No...two wrongs don't make a right. Bad things happen, you cant just sweep the consequences of those bad actions under the rug.

Castanza

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   “This is not the difference at all.  Your logic has broken down.  We all believe we have the right to impose certain views on others.  That is why rape, murder, theft and drunk driving are illegal.” 

Not my logic that is broken.

The difference is, in part, because rape, murder, theft and drunk driving are all pretty well universally understood to be unacceptable. I don’t see millions of rapists and murderers protesting that rape and murder be legalized and millions more agreeing with them.

Furthermore those are crimes against individual citizens - not unborn fetuses. Laws against abortion are a violation of an individual’s rights. Now you may believe that a fetus is a live human being entitled to all the rights of an individual. Many others disagree.

The majority of those in the anti abortionist camp have been brought up Roman Catholic and the movement is widely supported by the Church. One might suggest that given the history of the Church it does not in any way give it a moral high ground to dictate morality to others.

Your logic is wrong. You're being inconsistent when it comes to morality. You agree that rape, murder, and theft are wrong. Yet you want to pick and choose within the category which should be reprimanded. You can't claim objective morality and pick and choose. So my guess is you believe in subjective morality which gives you no stance to even have a say in the argument because by your own terms you cannot tell me what is wrong and what is right.

Do you believe in free will?
Are you a materialist?

LC

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You obviously have not read or misread my last few posts in this topic, because I address every point you raise.

It takes quite the person to force a rape victim to birth their rapist's child.

It's the old quote, "Left alone, good people will generally do good things. Bad people will generally do bad things. But to get a good man to do bad things, you need religion/"



that is because you are not the one being killed
So you're OK telling rape victims they must give birth to that fetus?

I am completely comfortable having laws that forbid the killing of an innocent human being.  Rape is sick but so is the intentional taking of an innocent human being.  You may think my response is cold, but I would contend the opposite is the case - supporting the killing of an innocent baby is cold.)  I would gladly pay higher taxes or voluntary give to help them emotionally, financially, etc.

Let's be clear, this is not the real issue for those who are pro-abortion rights or they would agree to accept an abortion ban except in the cases of rape and incest (And health of the mother).  The truth for nearly all is they want abortion for any reason the mother chooses, and for many, whenever the mother chooses.       

So you're okay with killing innocent unborn children because their mother doesn't want them, thinks they would be inconvenient, or may have a disability?  Why not a newborn?
"Lethargy bordering on sloth remains the cornerstone of our investment style."
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LC

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Does killing the child make the rape "go away"? No...two wrongs don't make a right. Bad things happen, you cant just sweep the consequences of those bad actions under the rug.
I've said repeatedly the whole point of the rape argument is to show that either one of two things must be true:
(1) the pro-life case is pure fanaticism, which will force rape victims to birth their rapist's children. Tim has just illustrated this a few posts prior.
or
(2) if it is OK to abort a fetus in the case of rape, then the idea that human life, with individual rights, etc., begins at conception is simply untrue.

Nobody here is trying to make rape "go away". Your argument is not only irrelevant, but totally callous. Imagine telling a rape victim that having an abortion will not make her rape "go away". It's ludicrous!
"Lethargy bordering on sloth remains the cornerstone of our investment style."
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