Author Topic: Analyze Donald Trump's actions Through the Teachings of Munger and Buffett  (Read 1794 times)

Read the Footnotes

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Re: Analyze Donald Trump's actions Through the Teachings of Munger and Buffett
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2019, 05:41:23 PM »
No, this isn't the Buffett/Munger way.
Great. Please say more . . .


Read the Footnotes

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Re: Analyze Donald Trump's actions Through the Teachings of Munger and Buffett
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2019, 05:47:37 PM »

He would be the anti-Dale Carnegie...doesn't want to win people over, but wants them to win him over.  Buffett gives credit to others...Trump wants others to give him credit.  One became very self-confident after being insecure, the other uses his insecurity to support his self-confidence.  Cheers!

Parsad, I like that you have introduced a new rule from Dale Carnegie for us to discuss.

I agree with what you have said, but I need to add another practice, which I think complicates his record on this principle a bit. He does have a habit of heaping what seems like rather hollow and extremely vague praise on people. Of course, there is further evidence that it is disingenuous, because his praise can be reversed in a moments notice.

Also, though he will go on with vague generic praise for other people, his claims of what he has achieved are just total BS, non-sensical and complete disconnected from reality. It would surprise me if Trump has actually spent the vast majority of his life manufacturing the myth of Trump.

You've inspired me to list all his ideas from "How to Win Friends and Influence People" for further discussion.

Fundamental Techniques in Handling People

2. Give honest and sincere appreciation. Appreciation is one of the most powerful tools in the world. People will rarely work at their maximum potential under criticism, but honest appreciation brings out their best. Appreciation, though, is not simple flattery, it must be sincere, meaningful and with love.

After seeing the emphasis on sincerity, I will take back my comments and just agree with you that he does not give sincere appreciation. To me it always feels like he's bored and his complements are hollow and insincere. He actually always seems incredibly bored whenever he's speaking about someone he's building up or complementing.

Read the Footnotes

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Re: Analyze Donald Trump's actions Through the Teachings of Munger and Buffett
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2019, 05:53:39 PM »
Not going to comment on the politics as there's already tons of threads on each topic.

On his "behavioral style" I would simply compare it to high school bullying. That's all it really is.

I think it's a little closer to mob-boss behavior with a little bit of childish middle school bullying mixed in. What do you think of that attempt to refine the description?

And similarly it's only effective with those who enable it.

Could you clarify effective? Or clarify what you mean by the last sentence? Do you mean the only people who are persuaded by his behavior are people who end up enabling that behavior?

Read the Footnotes

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Re: Analyze Donald Trump's actions Through the Teachings of Munger and Buffett
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2019, 05:57:47 PM »
Quote
Be a Leader: How to Change People Without Giving Offense or Arousing Resentment

3. Talk about your own mistakes before criticizing the other person. When something goes wrong, taking responsibility can help win others to your side. People do not like to shoulder all the blame and taking credit for mistakes helps to remove the sting from our critiques of others.

This is a funny one. I can't think of a single example of Trump admitting he made a mistake. Can anyone find one?

Gregmal

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Re: Analyze Donald Trump's actions Through the Teachings of Munger and Buffett
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2019, 06:16:27 PM »
I think he's a whole lot simpler than everything you are putting into it. He's an elite salesman. He's a great leader to those that share certain beliefs or values. The flip to that is that most salesmen are highly conflicted and put their interests above yours. And regarding his style of leadership, its the type that the opposition absolutely despise. He uses the divisiveness to bring out the best(however that may be defined) the same way Russell Wilson had a chip on his shoulder after being passed over in the draft or some NCAA 15 seed at the big dance.  Us against them.

His praise; I disagree to an extent. Its not that he s bored or whatever, but he uses it to be manipulative. Again, if you simplify his style down to its simplest form, almost everything comes down to encouraging/reinforcing good and bad. His praise, IE with someone like Kim, or Xi is mean to encourage them to continue giving him what he wants. His nastiness is meant to both discredit somebody/something just the same while also makes them uncomfortable and hope to get them to change course. Remember even a few instances where Nancy Pelosi praised him? He spoke glowingly about her. Again not insincere totally(maybe partially in an abstract way) but more so an I'll scratch your back you scratch mine type of way.

There is a tremendous sequence in the movie Thank You For Smoking where Aaron Eckhard is talking with his kid and they are debating chocolate vs vanilla. He says "it doesn't matter if my side of the argument is right, as long as I can discredit you, I win" or something like that. It's 100% true.

Everything is transactional with him. If you think he's great, you're great. If you dislike him, he dislikes you. His brand glows because he's never wrong. Its always someone else's fault when something goes wrong. His track record is perfect when things go right because its always the greatest, bestest thing ever.

Its simple as shit but its effective marketing and one of the greatest political strategies we've ever seen.

Read the Footnotes

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Re: Analyze Donald Trump's actions Through the Teachings of Munger and Buffett
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2019, 06:35:23 PM »
I think he's a whole lot simpler than everything you are putting into it. He's an elite salesman. He's a great leader to those that share certain beliefs or values.

You say he is a great leader. Yet in business and in his administration, employee turnover is extremely high. How do you explain the high turnover rates? I believe in a separate thread you were complaining about the disloyalty Trump has faced. Why do you believe that he has failed as a leader to inspire loyalty?

The flip to that is that most salesmen are highly conflicted and put their interests above yours. And regarding his style of leadership, its the type that the opposition absolutely despise. He uses the divisiveness to bring out the best(however that may be defined) the same way Russell Wilson had a chip on his shoulder after being passed over in the draft or some NCAA 15 seed at the big dance.  Us against them.

His praise; I disagree to an extent. Its not that he s bored or whatever, but he uses it to be manipulative. Again, if you simplify his style down to its simplest form, almost everything comes down to encouraging/reinforcing good and bad. His praise, IE with someone like Kim, or Xi is mean to encourage them to continue giving him what he wants. His nastiness is meant to both discredit somebody/something just the same while also makes them uncomfortable and hope to get them to change course. Remember even a few instances where Nancy Pelosi praised him? He spoke glowingly about her. Again not insincere totally(maybe partially in an abstract way) but more so an I'll scratch your back you scratch mine type of way.

We are pretty far away from comparing him to the teachings of Buffett/Munger, but it sounds like you are describing a narcissist or psychopath. Is that correct or fair? If so, does that factor in to your assessment of the value of the example he sets? Do you think there are risks associated, and if so what are they?

There is a tremendous sequence in the movie Thank You For Smoking where Aaron Eckhard is talking with his kid and they are debating chocolate vs vanilla. He says "it doesn't matter if my side of the argument is right, as long as I can discredit you, I win" or something like that. It's 100% true.

Everything is transactional with him. If you think he's great, you're great. If you dislike him, he dislikes you. His brand glows because he's never wrong. Its always someone else's fault when something goes wrong. His track record is perfect when things go right because its always the greatest, bestest thing ever.

He can't always be right, so it sounds like you believe he's constantly dishonest. How long can he fool people? What happens when people or supporters start to see through it?

Its simple as shit but its effective marketing and one of the greatest political strategies we've ever seen.

It's not clear if you think that his system is superior to the Buffett/Munger way. Would you, do you try to emulate Trump in any way, what about the Buffett/Munger way?

Gregmal

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Re: Analyze Donald Trump's actions Through the Teachings of Munger and Buffett
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2019, 06:51:35 PM »
I think he's a whole lot simpler than everything you are putting into it. He's an elite salesman. He's a great leader to those that share certain beliefs or values.

You say he is a great leader. Yet in business and in his administration, employee turnover is extremely high. How do you explain the high turnover rates? I believe in a separate thread you were complaining about the disloyalty Trump has faced. Why do you believe that he has failed as a leader to inspire loyalty?

The flip to that is that most salesmen are highly conflicted and put their interests above yours. And regarding his style of leadership, its the type that the opposition absolutely despise. He uses the divisiveness to bring out the best(however that may be defined) the same way Russell Wilson had a chip on his shoulder after being passed over in the draft or some NCAA 15 seed at the big dance.  Us against them.

His praise; I disagree to an extent. Its not that he s bored or whatever, but he uses it to be manipulative. Again, if you simplify his style down to its simplest form, almost everything comes down to encouraging/reinforcing good and bad. His praise, IE with someone like Kim, or Xi is mean to encourage them to continue giving him what he wants. His nastiness is meant to both discredit somebody/something just the same while also makes them uncomfortable and hope to get them to change course. Remember even a few instances where Nancy Pelosi praised him? He spoke glowingly about her. Again not insincere totally(maybe partially in an abstract way) but more so an I'll scratch your back you scratch mine type of way.

We are pretty far away from comparing him to the teachings of Buffett/Munger, but it sounds like you are describing a narcissist or psychopath. Is that correct or fair? If so, does that factor in to your assessment of the value of the example he sets? Do you think there are risks associated, and if so what are they?

There is a tremendous sequence in the movie Thank You For Smoking where Aaron Eckhard is talking with his kid and they are debating chocolate vs vanilla. He says "it doesn't matter if my side of the argument is right, as long as I can discredit you, I win" or something like that. It's 100% true.

Everything is transactional with him. If you think he's great, you're great. If you dislike him, he dislikes you. His brand glows because he's never wrong. Its always someone else's fault when something goes wrong. His track record is perfect when things go right because its always the greatest, bestest thing ever.

He can't always be right, so it sounds like you believe he's constantly dishonest. How long can he fool people? What happens when people or supporters start to see through it?

Its simple as shit but its effective marketing and one of the greatest political strategies we've ever seen.

It's not clear if you think that his system is superior to the Buffett/Munger way. Would you, do you try to emulate Trump in any way, what about the Buffett/Munger way?

Perhaps great "inspirer" rather than leader. He got people out to vote in ways no Republican has been able to do in a while. His business roundtable and original cabinet were all stars and collections of the brightest people in business. I think they all eventually leave after seeing how the sausage is made because at the end of the day he's "manufactured" his greatest, rather than genuine greatness if that makes sense. He's actually not too far off from the Clintons, Epsteins, even Belfort's of the world than he is the Dimon's, Buffett's, etc.

The disloyalty he's faced is in a different context. He has constantly had people, even within his own circle trying to undermine him or set him up to fail. Remember politics is much different than business. There jobs are good, but you can't inspire someone to go land a big deal or hit some home run because its not eat what you kill its basically just don't fuck up and keep getting your check.

His brand relies of maintaining his image. Of course he lies. The risks are akin to a story stock like WPRT... its works over and over until one day people just stop believing the story. This happens eventually when the bread crumbs delivered here and there arent enough to put off feeding everyone anymore. I wouldn't say he's constantly dishonest. I'd say he s right quite a bit. And when he's wrong he is dishonest about it. Look at Jerome Powell. He picked Powell. Powell isn't what he wants, he blames Powell... And starts the good=praise/bad=disparage/discredit stuff.

Its not really a one size fits all comparison. Who style is better depends on a lot of things. It is probably most dependent upon the person. For a rough and tumble kid from a lower income area... Trumps strategy probably works better than Buffett's. For someone already familiar with the white collar game...it's probably Buffett. Personally, I am of the believe that you can look at and analyze, then learn from every strategy; put that knowledge in your life tool box, and then pick what best suits an individual situation when it arises. Same approach with investing.






LC

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Re: Analyze Donald Trump's actions Through the Teachings of Munger and Buffett
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2019, 08:50:13 PM »
Not going to comment on the politics as there's already tons of threads on each topic.

On his "behavioral style" I would simply compare it to high school bullying. That's all it really is.

I think it's a little closer to mob-boss behavior with a little bit of childish middle school bullying mixed in. What do you think of that attempt to refine the description?

And similarly it's only effective with those who enable it.

Could you clarify effective? Or clarify what you mean by the last sentence? Do you mean the only people who are persuaded by his behavior are people who end up enabling that behavior?

No I don't agree with the 'mob boss' mentality. Anyone who has ever been in such a situation knows that loyalty is incredibly important: when you are doing shady shit, you need to trust the people you work with. As someone mentioned, Trump does not foster this environment, as evidenced by the revolving door of people who have either quit, been forced out by Trump, or turned on Trump at the drop of a hat.

On the "effective" part - think of the prototypical bully. The bully is only successful when everyone else accepts such behavior. You need the right people in the right situation to foster such acceptance. Think of how D.T. was generally regarded as an example of the worst parts of nepotism, a poor businessman, good for a laugh and nothing more...for decades. But over time, now you have the right people and the right situation for D.T.'s behavior to be accepted.

Another item: One of Buffett's sayings is to praise specifically, but criticize generally. Most can naturally understand why this would be successful. DT does the opposite - he praises generally and criticizes specifically.
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cubsfan

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Re: Analyze Donald Trump's actions Through the Teachings of Munger and Buffett
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2019, 12:27:10 AM »
Gregmal has this right - this is a whole lot simpler than you are making this out to be: it's more about the process and the system to get results
that matter to Trump. You hate his style, we get that - he's not Dale Carnegie, Buffett, etc...  Why should he be?

He's trying to get a dictator in N. Korea under control, a group of insane mullahs in Iran contained, a Left that is bound and determine to wreck this
country. If he changes these things - he will be a great US President.

These people do not respect the teachings of Dale Carnegie - good luck with that - Kim or the Mullahs would have them shot. They use your
magnanimous behavior against you and view it as a sign of weakness. They respect and are only controlled by strength. They used Obama's
outreach to the muslim world, turned it around on him - and made him look like a weak and naive fool. So much for Dale Carnegie and an
undeserved Nobel prize that went to his head.

Trump is not and never will be a weak leader: Churchill defeated Hitler, Chamberlin did not - A Chamberlin only made the problem much worse by not containing a Hitler -  much like Obama with Iran & Russia. There will always be bad actors in the world who will spit in Dale Carnegie's face.
You can count on that.

You feel safe under Carnegie's Obama - I've never felt safer under Trump style.

Cigarbutt

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Re: Analyze Donald Trump's actions Through the Teachings of Munger and Buffett
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2019, 05:25:52 AM »
Humble contribution from a neighbor.

Politics is the art of compromise in various forms. The basic premise behind Dale Carnegie's 'principles' is empathy. Watching the rise of Mr. Trump, I come to the conclusion that he (sub?)consciously was able to capture the developing theme related to the idea that compromise (ideological political program) was less relevant in a growing polarization picture. Being involved in politics means compromise over other aspects (party line versus personal convictions, electoral strategy, personal integrity) and a line has to be drawn by individual candidates as to where the limit is. In my opinion, this line has been drawn too far, enough to challenge democratic institutions. With trust eroding, it seems to me that Mr. Carnegie's (who started out as a salesman) techniques should be used to rebuild the house divided.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/08/06/young-americans-are-less-trusting-of-other-people-and-key-institutions-than-their-elders/

Political leaders can apply the 'friendly' approach and combine it with the principles laid out in The Prince (Niccolo Machiavelli) which is widely quoted but perhaps fundamentally misunderstood. Gregmal above referred to team coaches. Coaches, as leaders, can be jerks, dishonest, manipulative etc and can win championships but I would say that, in the large majority of cases, this is neither essential nor necessary. Concerning tough situations that leaders need to address and 'the balls' required to do so, one can look back to such leaders as Lincoln and Washington, who were sometimes considered 'weak' by others at critical junctures, to realize that sticking to higher principles and looking out for the better angels of our nature can be a winning strategy against adversity.

Thanks to Read the Footnotes for this topic and it was interesting to see Carnegie's principles in action. This thread is really about qualities that leaders should have and political leaders may form a specific subset. A significant concern I have is that Mr. Trump is channeling resentment on a large scale and appeals to those who feel that they were not listened to and treated in an unfair way and tends to bring the worse aspects in people. It shows on a national basis and also (apologies) on this Board. :(