Corner of Berkshire & Fairfax Message Board

General Category => Politics => Topic started by: LC on December 29, 2018, 10:24:50 AM

Title: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on December 29, 2018, 10:24:50 AM
I saw a comment recently that made me think - one of the traits people claimed Trump had was the ability to make a deal.

I am curious how those who voted for/support him view this in light of the government shut down, and Trump's inability to convince (1) Mexico (2) A Republican Congress, to pay for one of his most memorable promises - the "wall".
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Parsad on December 31, 2018, 06:11:53 PM
I saw a comment recently that made me think - one of the traits people claimed Trump had was the ability to make a deal.

I am curious how those who voted for/support him view this in light of the government shut down, and Trump's inability to convince (1) Mexico (2) A Republican Congress, to pay for one of his most memorable promises - the "wall".

He is not a good deal maker.  He uses threats and litigation in his business, and he does the same as President...if I don't get what I want, I will shut the government down.  Cheers!
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Orchard on January 01, 2019, 07:43:06 AM
I'm not a Trump fan. I quite dislike him.

Nonetheless I took some time to study the guy since he's now everywhere and in the late 80s he had quite a presence in the stock market as well.

His first deal seems to have been the Commodore Hotel. He got a large tax abatement from the city and partnered with Pritzker to put the Grand Hyatt banner on it. At the time he was in his twenties and I'm sure a lot of people would have loved to re-develop that hotel. On the other hand it's not clear to me that his return was that remarkable on it. I think Pritzker made a lot more on it than he did.

The next deal was the Trump Tower. He still got a large tax abatement from the city by suing them (Roy Cohn was the lawyer). However, the real deal here was purchasing the site. You would think that a lot of people were interested in it but he was ultimately the one that got it.

Personally, I think these were quite remarkable deals. Other than that the Mar A Lago purchase was shrewd in a more sinister way.

After this I didn't find any deals that impressed me.

I can see how these deals would build up quite a reputation in the real estate industry. It's obviously a stretch to believe that this would translate to other fields.

I have some friends who played high level sports when they were young and still talk about it today, 20 years later. If you listen to them it sounds like it all happened just this morning but you know they haven't done anything in years (think LaVar Ball). He reminds me of those people.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 01, 2019, 10:26:21 AM
I saw a comment recently that made me think - one of the traits people claimed Trump had was the ability to make a deal.

I am curious how those who voted for/support him view this in light of the government shut down, and Trump's inability to convince (1) Mexico (2) A Republican Congress, to pay for one of his most memorable promises - the "wall".

He is not a good deal maker.  He uses threats and litigation in his business, and he does the same as President...if I don't get what I want, I will shut the government down.  Cheers!

He is financially harming the Federal workers (shooting the hostages) until he gets his way.

Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Parsad on January 01, 2019, 06:48:00 PM
I saw a comment recently that made me think - one of the traits people claimed Trump had was the ability to make a deal.

I am curious how those who voted for/support him view this in light of the government shut down, and Trump's inability to convince (1) Mexico (2) A Republican Congress, to pay for one of his most memorable promises - the "wall".

He is not a good deal maker.  He uses threats and litigation in his business, and he does the same as President...if I don't get what I want, I will shut the government down.  Cheers!

He is financially harming the Federal workers (shooting the hostages) until he gets his way.

Although he would describe it as "flesh wounds"!  Cheers!
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 01, 2019, 07:00:21 PM
I saw a comment recently that made me think - one of the traits people claimed Trump had was the ability to make a deal.

I am curious how those who voted for/support him view this in light of the government shut down, and Trump's inability to convince (1) Mexico (2) A Republican Congress, to pay for one of his most memorable promises - the "wall".

He is not a good deal maker.  He uses threats and litigation in his business, and he does the same as President...if I don't get what I want, I will shut the government down.  Cheers!

He is financially harming the Federal workers (shooting the hostages) until he gets his way.

Although he would describe it as "flesh wounds"!  Cheers!

While I'm sure there are some great folks(I know plenty who are), these are also in many cases folks who get paid well with great pensions and benefits, for doing easy stuff from 9-4 with a 2 hour lunch break....

If our real blood and sweat workers like farmers(who by the way don't make great money, don't have pensions, and usually pay their own health insurance) can take one on the chin to fix some problems and improve the country, so can they....
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: wescobrk on January 01, 2019, 08:19:21 PM
I saw a comment recently that made me think - one of the traits people claimed Trump had was the ability to make a deal.

I am curious how those who voted for/support him view this in light of the government shut down, and Trump's inability to convince (1) Mexico (2) A Republican Congress, to pay for one of his most memorable promises - the "wall".

He is not a good deal maker.  He uses threats and litigation in his business, and he does the same as President...if I don't get what I want, I will shut the government down.  Cheers!

I'm not a Trump supporter, but Obama did the same thing as a senator. He voted to shut down the government and not fund it when W was in office.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Parsad on January 01, 2019, 11:14:40 PM
I saw a comment recently that made me think - one of the traits people claimed Trump had was the ability to make a deal.

I am curious how those who voted for/support him view this in light of the government shut down, and Trump's inability to convince (1) Mexico (2) A Republican Congress, to pay for one of his most memorable promises - the "wall".

He is not a good deal maker.  He uses threats and litigation in his business, and he does the same as President...if I don't get what I want, I will shut the government down.  Cheers!

I'm not a Trump supporter, but Obama did the same thing as a senator. He voted to shut down the government and not fund it when W was in office.

And two wrongs don't make a right.  If Trump is trying to distinguish himself from Obama, he should learn from Obama's mistakes...not repeat them.  Cheers!
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 02, 2019, 09:59:04 AM
And let’s not forget the last shutdown was over 3.4 billion for healthcare - something which actually benefits people’s lives. Apparently at the time Republicans thought we couldn’t afford that- but 5B for a wall that won’t work, apparently that is totally affordable.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 02, 2019, 10:04:54 AM
Here’s the problem with this wall, these are two comments I saw but IMHO explain (1) the situation and (2) the reason why.


Planet Money did a podcast on the feasibility of building the wall and from most accounts its doable but it would be extremely expensive.

First you need to acquire all the land needed to build the wall and some areas sit on private property.
Second you need to build an infrastructure of roads and other infrastructure structures just to be able to reach some of the remote areas to build the wall.
Third you need to actually build the wall.
And finally you need to maintain the wall which is estimated to cost up to three times the cost of the actual wall.
This doesnt take into account the inevitable lawsuits, funding issues, government waste, etc.

If you really want to secure the entire border. The better idea is a series of drones and ground sensors. While improving the walls of the areas that are most commonly crossed.



The problem for Trump is that "The Wall" was never about how effective (or cost-effective) it would be. It was about what he has been about his entire life: building large gaudy shit and putting his name on it. That's why it was his go-so solution and the centerpiece of his campaign. You can't put "TRUMP" on a ground sensor and stand in front of it so everyone can see how big and not-Toad-shaped your dick is. He wants something big and physical that everyone has to say is the Trump Thing of Trump Made By Trump.

Nothing about how important this is to him has to do with efficacy. It's 100% about ego and symbolism.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: rkbabang on January 02, 2019, 11:34:52 AM
In my opinion anyone who can be described as a non-essential government worker in any context, should be laid off permanently.   There are far too many federal government employees doing far too many things and being paid far too much money.  I hope the shutdown lasts a long long time.  Long enough for a good percentage of these people to go find productive work in the private sector.   Trump, Obama, whoever. I don't care who shuts down the government or why, it is always a good thing.

Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: watsa_is_a_randian_hero on January 02, 2019, 12:40:26 PM
What is the present value of the change in trade deficit with Mexico under USMCA vs NAFTA?  This was a $63 billion deficit in 2017...if this was reduced by 1%, a 20x multiple on this would be $12.6 billion. 

What is the savings of not providing benefits to non-us citizen Mexican nationals who cross our border illegally?
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 02, 2019, 01:26:55 PM
What is the present value of the change in trade deficit with Mexico under USMCA vs NAFTA?  This was a $63 billion deficit in 2017...if this was reduced by 1%, a 20x multiple on this would be $12.6 billion. 

What is the savings of not providing benefits to non-us citizen Mexican nationals who cross our border illegally?


I've seen reports that illegal immigrants cost the taxpayer somewhere between 50 to 130 billion per year depending on numerous assumption, one of which is simply the number of illegal immigrants in the country.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Parsad on January 02, 2019, 02:23:57 PM
What is the present value of the change in trade deficit with Mexico under USMCA vs NAFTA?  This was a $63 billion deficit in 2017...if this was reduced by 1%, a 20x multiple on this would be $12.6 billion. 

What is the savings of not providing benefits to non-us citizen Mexican nationals who cross our border illegally?


I've seen reports that illegal immigrants cost the taxpayer somewhere between 50 to 130 billion per year depending on numerous assumption, one of which is simply the number of illegal immigrants in the country.

I would think that number is probably accurate...say 10M illegals...no taxes, fraud, etc...say $10K a head and you are looking at $100B.  I agree that illegal immigrants is a problem and has to be fixed. 

I'm just against tearing families apart and saying that a $5B wall is going to fix the problem.  It took a couple of decades to create the problem, you should expect it to take nearly a decade to fix it properly...and that means more than $5B, and a wall isn't going to cure it or reduce it substantially, since you've already got more than half of the border walled or cut-off with natural terrain.  You need more people, more cameras, more security from the Mexico side...Cheers! 
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 02, 2019, 02:52:12 PM
Parsad,

I think that a wall will help.  We have a huge backlog of asylum case that we can't manage effectively.  But only about 7 to 10% of those claiming asylum will actually.   I understand why you don't want to separate families.  But how do you deal with the 90% who ultimately won't qualify for asylum.  Because of the backlog and legal protections afforded asylum claiments,  it might take years to process them at this point.  Drones and more agents do not solve this problem because once they cross the border and utter the magic word "asylum" legal ramifications stemming from the claim must be dealt with.   

For color on the backlog -  https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-take-action-address-asylum-backlog
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Parsad on January 02, 2019, 03:01:43 PM
Parsad,

I think that a wall will help.  We have a huge backlog of asylum case that we can't manage effectively.  But only about 7 to 10% of those claiming asylum will actually.   I understand why you don't want to separate families.  But how do you deal with the 90% who ultimately won't qualify for asylum.  Because of the backlog and legal protections afforded asylum claiments,  it might take years to process them at this point.  Drones and more agents do not solve this problem because once they cross the border and utter the magic word "asylum" legal ramifications stemming from the claim must be dealt with.   

For color on the backlog -  https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-take-action-address-asylum-backlog

I understand the complication and ramifications, but if it took something years and years to fester, it isn't going to heal in a year or two.  Trump is right on illegals, but he's handling it all the wrong way...and he's not making any progress with the stance and attitude he's taking.  This wasn't a liberal/democrat problem...it's an American problem that occurred over various administrations and parties.  The problem is that the man only knows how to wield a hammer and everything is a God-damn nail to him.  Cheers!
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 02, 2019, 03:13:03 PM
All fair points, Parsad.

However, I will say one thing in Trumps favor.  As you correctly point out this is a problem built on the failures of democrats and republicans over the decades.  At least Trump is raising hell trying to do something.  Left to the establishment (both sides) i can assure you that this problem would be kicked down the road just like every over difficult issue the country faces.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Parsad on January 02, 2019, 03:32:57 PM
All fair points, Parsad.

However, I will say one thing in Trumps favor.  As you correctly point out this is a problem built on the failures of democrats and republicans over the decades.  At least Trump is raising hell trying to do something.  Left to the establishment (both sides) i can assure you that this problem would be kicked down the road just like every over difficult issue the country faces.

That's probably correct.  Again, I'm not disagreeing with Trump...only the way he's going about it and the amount of time and money this is going to take to fix properly...and not with a hammer. 

These are people we are dealing with...we lose our humanity, and we lose everything that makes America great!  Yeah take a hard line with Mexico and South American countries, as well as the criminals and murderers...but there are also many families and innocent people in that 10M population of illegal immigrants...all they want is a better life, and maybe they just took the wrong advice and did it the wrong way.  Cheers!
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 02, 2019, 03:53:14 PM
But when Obama and other Dems including Schumer wanted a wall, no one whined....


Let me guess, two wrongs don't make a right? Obama isn't president right now? Or did I miss one...
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: orthopa on January 02, 2019, 04:36:13 PM
I haven't even noticed that the fed govt was shut down? Stop reading the news on this and you will realize quickly it means nothing. Govt shuts down every couple of years. Who cares. Every time the reason is stupid depending on which party you support.

I think the one thing with Trump that is true he was exactly what he ran for or as. This should'nt be a surprise I guess knowing this was what he promised. I think it true political fashion many are surprised as he is actually pushing the issue.





Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 02, 2019, 04:56:28 PM
But when Obama and other Dems including Schumer wanted a wall, no one whined....


Let me guess, two wrongs don't make a right? Obama isn't president right now? Or did I miss one...
Are you talking about the Fence Act?

That was a somewhat intelligent take on the Mexico border, but even that was seen to have failed.

Quote
A report in May 2008 by the Congressional Research Service found "strong indication" that illegal border-crossers had simply found new routes.[13] A 2017 Government Accountability Office (GAO) report, citing U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) data, found that from fiscal year 2010 through fiscal year 2015, the U.S.-Mexico border fence had been breached 9,287 times, at an average cost of $784 per breach to repair.[14] The same GAO report concluded that "CBP cannot measure the contribution of fencing to border security operations along the southwest border because it has not developed metrics for this assessment."[12] GAO noted that because the government lacked such data, it was unable to assess the effectiveness of border fencing, and therefore could not "identify the cost effectiveness of border fencing compared to other assets the agency deploys, including Border Patrol agents and various surveillance technologies."[15]

The fence is routinely climbed or otherwise circumvented.[9] The GAO reported in 2017 that both pedestrian and vehicle barriers have been defeated by various methods, including using ramps to drive vehicles "up and over" vehicle fencing in the sector; scaling, jumping over, or breaching pedestrian fencing; burrowing or tunneling underground; and even using small aircraft.[16] New York Times op-ed writer Lawrence Downes wrote in 2013: "A climber with a rope can hop it in less than half a minute. ... Smugglers with jackhammers tunnel under it. They throw drugs and rocks over it. The fence is breached not just by sunlight and shadows, but also the hooded gaze of drug-cartel lookouts, and by bullets. Border agents describe their job as an unending battle of wits, a cat-mouse game with the constant threat of violence."[9][17]

Fighting and against a rising tide is unwise. Turn the ship around and make the current work for you.

In other words: allow full economic "citizenship" - i.e. you apply for some work permit. You pay taxes, you pay into social security and medicare. But you don't receive those benefits, you cannot vote, yo do not get a US passport. But you have a legal status. The increased taxes are the cost of doing business for the marginal immigrant. Those fleeing drug-torn Central America would not turn it down. It brings down the tax burden of US citizens, it separates the illicit immigration (drugs, weapons, human trafficking) from work migrants (which allows even higher penalties on illegal border crossing and therefore a stronger deterrent to the "bad hombres"), it solves the shadowy living situation of millions of US illegal immigrants, and it doesn't really change much of anything in terms of overall population flow (considering our current heavy-handed efforts do not seem to be working). It saves billions on futile immigration courts and border security, it allows border patrol to focus on criminal activity.

But nah we're gonna build a wall. That'll fix it.  :o :o

Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Parsad on January 02, 2019, 05:36:44 PM
But when Obama and other Dems including Schumer wanted a wall, no one whined....


Let me guess, two wrongs don't make a right? Obama isn't president right now? Or did I miss one...
Are you talking about the Fence Act?

That was a somewhat intelligent take on the Mexico border, but even that was seen to have failed.

Quote
A report in May 2008 by the Congressional Research Service found "strong indication" that illegal border-crossers had simply found new routes.[13] A 2017 Government Accountability Office (GAO) report, citing U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) data, found that from fiscal year 2010 through fiscal year 2015, the U.S.-Mexico border fence had been breached 9,287 times, at an average cost of $784 per breach to repair.[14] The same GAO report concluded that "CBP cannot measure the contribution of fencing to border security operations along the southwest border because it has not developed metrics for this assessment."[12] GAO noted that because the government lacked such data, it was unable to assess the effectiveness of border fencing, and therefore could not "identify the cost effectiveness of border fencing compared to other assets the agency deploys, including Border Patrol agents and various surveillance technologies."[15]

The fence is routinely climbed or otherwise circumvented.[9] The GAO reported in 2017 that both pedestrian and vehicle barriers have been defeated by various methods, including using ramps to drive vehicles "up and over" vehicle fencing in the sector; scaling, jumping over, or breaching pedestrian fencing; burrowing or tunneling underground; and even using small aircraft.[16] New York Times op-ed writer Lawrence Downes wrote in 2013: "A climber with a rope can hop it in less than half a minute. ... Smugglers with jackhammers tunnel under it. They throw drugs and rocks over it. The fence is breached not just by sunlight and shadows, but also the hooded gaze of drug-cartel lookouts, and by bullets. Border agents describe their job as an unending battle of wits, a cat-mouse game with the constant threat of violence."[9][17]

Fighting and against a rising tide is unwise. Turn the ship around and make the current work for you.

In other words: allow full economic "citizenship" - i.e. you apply for some work permit. You pay taxes, you pay into social security and medicare. But you don't receive those benefits, you cannot vote, yo do not get a US passport. But you have a legal status. The increased taxes are the cost of doing business for the marginal immigrant. Those fleeing drug-torn Central America would not turn it down. It brings down the tax burden of US citizens, it separates the illicit immigration (drugs, weapons, human trafficking) from work migrants (which allows even higher penalties on illegal border crossing and therefore a stronger deterrent to the "bad hombres"), it solves the shadowy living situation of millions of US illegal immigrants, and it doesn't really change much of anything in terms of overall population flow (considering our current heavy-handed efforts do not seem to be working). It saves billions on futile immigration courts and border security, it allows border patrol to focus on criminal activity.

But nah we're gonna build a wall. That'll fix it.  :o :o

+1!  That's a workable alternative to what is being attempted.  Would cost less, do more, and you negate the economic harm.  Republicans would still keep screaming about the criminals being let into the country.  So I think you have to do both...secure the border, remove the criminals and nationalize the illegals that should stay and pay their fair share...and maybe the price should be no passport, benefits, etc...just residency.  Cheers!
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Parsad on January 02, 2019, 05:37:29 PM
But when Obama and other Dems including Schumer wanted a wall, no one whined....


I'm sure you did!  Cheers!

Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: watsa_is_a_randian_hero on January 02, 2019, 09:27:54 PM
See attached
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: rb on January 02, 2019, 09:39:23 PM
So what? So does Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, Pakistan, Laos, Myanmar, Japan and Russia.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: watsa_is_a_randian_hero on January 03, 2019, 06:25:01 AM
Well, the US has not (ever) before.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 03, 2019, 11:57:02 AM
Officials at a government-affiliated think tank in Beijing said the price of U.S. rice was not competitive, compared with imports from South Asia, and said the move to formally permit imports from the United States should be interpreted as a goodwill gesture.


To be fair it's progress of a kind - and lest I be accused of glossing over Trump's victories.

That said,

(https://i.redd.it/9ubol4i4x7821.jpg)

Maybe we need a political humor thread, to lighten the tensions in here  ;D
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 03, 2019, 12:05:29 PM
The wall will be at least 6 ft deep to discourage people from tunneling under it.

Yep... nobody can dig that deep.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 03, 2019, 12:11:04 PM
LOL you guys are such clowns. Go see how long it takes to dig 6 feet down, wide enough for one, let alone multiple people, and then tunnel out the other side...
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 03, 2019, 12:18:03 PM
The wall will be at least 6 ft deep to discourage people from tunneling under it.

Yep... nobody can dig that deep.

Okay. But please explain to me how drones and censors will stop caravans of people from entering the country illegally.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 03, 2019, 12:22:56 PM
We should throw good money after bad is what you are saying.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 03, 2019, 12:28:44 PM
No, if it doesn't solve every problem(bbbbut someone will still find a way in!), don't try at all, is what you are saying....
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 03, 2019, 12:38:52 PM
The wall will be at least 6 ft deep to discourage people from tunneling under it.

Yep... nobody can dig that deep.

Okay. But please explain to me how drones and censors will stop caravans of people from entering the country illegally.

It’s a targeted response. Drones/sensors alert border patrol and track immigrant movement. BP drives out and makes arrests.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 03, 2019, 12:39:06 PM
You will still need the drones and sensors to detect the people that have made it under or over the wall.

I figure the wall will look like this on the Mexican side:

https://everlastclimbing.com/collections/climbing-walls
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 03, 2019, 12:41:02 PM
The wall will be at least 6 ft deep to discourage people from tunneling under it.

Yep... nobody can dig that deep.

Okay. But please explain to me how drones and censors will stop caravans of people from entering the country illegally.

It’s a targeted response. Drones/sensors alert border patrol and track immigrant movement. BP drives out and makes arrests.

Ok so then build a wall and use drones so that when the hole diggers take 8 hours to try to burrow through, border patrol can simply stroll on over and handle the situation...

Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 03, 2019, 12:41:17 PM
No, if it doesn't solve every problem(bbbbut someone will still find a way in!), don't try at all, is what you are saying....
As usual you are putting words in everyone’s mouth. Nobody is saying do nothing. Instead, Trump should pursue intelligent alternatives.

But he won’t because as I posted earlier, the wall is a symbol for his ego, not a real solution.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 03, 2019, 12:43:25 PM
Eight hours for six feet? 

Have you not ever seen a crew of Mexican workers tearing up the pavement of a street with picks and shovels?
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 03, 2019, 12:46:19 PM
Eight hours for six feet? 

Have you not ever seen a crew of Mexican workers tearing up the pavement of a street with picks and shovels?

So how long? 2 hours? 1 hour? To dig 6 foot deep tunnels down and then up and out????

Having to stop at the wall to dig regardless gives border patrol time to apprehend the clowns. VS I suppose the alternative, just let em walk right on over and scream the only word of English they know "asylum"...
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Parsad on January 03, 2019, 12:47:02 PM
LOL you guys are such clowns. Go see how long it takes to dig 6 feet down, wide enough for one, let alone multiple people, and then tunnel out the other side...

Yeah, those crazy, lazy Mexicans will never be able to dig that deep!  They'll be taking siestas all day!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/tunnel-mexico-us-border-drug-smuggling-california-san-diego-solar-rail-train-a8578026.html

Cheers!
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 03, 2019, 12:51:35 PM
The wall will be at least 6 ft deep to discourage people from tunneling under it.

Yep... nobody can dig that deep.

Okay. But please explain to me how drones and censors will stop caravans of people from entering the country illegally


It’s a targeted response. Drones/sensors alert border patrol and track immigrant movement. BP drives out and makes arrests.

So they can claim asylum knowing that their cases won't be heard for years and that they will be let loose in America while awaiting a trial that most won't show up for.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 03, 2019, 12:53:06 PM
LOL you guys are such clowns. Go see how long it takes to dig 6 feet down, wide enough for one, let alone multiple people, and then tunnel out the other side...

Yeah, those crazy, lazy Mexicans will never be able to dig that deep!  They'll be taking siestas all day!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/tunnel-mexico-us-border-drug-smuggling-california-san-diego-solar-rail-train-a8578026.html

Cheers!

Oh but I thought they're not all murderers and rapists and drug dealers? Yet you point to evidence the cartels dig extensive tunnels, no one is debating that. I bet that tunnel took an hour to build, no? Good lord.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 03, 2019, 12:55:20 PM
Personally, I would take an indefinitely long siesta before returning to complete the largely pre-dug hole.

Nobody else will think of this, thank goodness.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 03, 2019, 01:03:19 PM
I've seen lots of photos where the army has laid several rows of concertina wire at the base iof he wall on our side.  So that short dig you keep harping on about will actually be a much longer tunnel.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 03, 2019, 01:10:30 PM
I've seen lots of photos where the army has laid several rows of concertina wire at the base iof he wall on our side.  So that short dig you keep harping on about will actually be a much longer tunnel.

Why do you need a wall then?
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 03, 2019, 01:19:58 PM
I've seen lots of photos where the army has laid several rows of concertina wire at the base iof he wall on our side.  So that short dig you keep harping on about will actually be a much longer tunnel.

Why do you need a wall then?

Why keep criminals in a jail cell?

I'll answer this rhetorical question before I get some fantastic scripted identity politics inspired liberal response... because with people who don't follow the rules or exploit the system, you need to have deterrents. Even if you want to argue that they'll all build tunnels, the fact is that they're primarily building tunnels because the wall is in the way....
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: rkbabang on January 03, 2019, 01:30:01 PM
Looks to me like Musk's The Boring Company has a large addressable market.

Only half kidding.  $10M/mile for a tunnel you can drive a vehicle through?  A smugglers dream.  You can get a lot of drugs and/or people through something like that.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 03, 2019, 01:34:44 PM
The wall will be at least 6 ft deep to discourage people from tunneling under it.

Yep... nobody can dig that deep.

Okay. But please explain to me how drones and censors will stop caravans of people from entering the country illegally


It’s a targeted response. Drones/sensors alert border patrol and track immigrant movement. BP drives out and makes arrests.

So they can claim asylum knowing that their cases won't be heard for years and that they will be let loose in America while awaiting a trial that most won't show up for.

They can claim asylum whether or not there is a ridiculous wall.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 03, 2019, 01:39:09 PM
The wall will be at least 6 ft deep to discourage people from tunneling under it.

Yep... nobody can dig that deep.

Okay. But please explain to me how drones and censors will stop caravans of people from entering the country illegally


It’s a targeted response. Drones/sensors alert border patrol and track immigrant movement. BP drives out and makes arrests.

So they can claim asylum knowing that their cases won't be heard for years and that they will be let loose in America while awaiting a trial that most won't show up for.

They can claim asylum whether or not there is a ridiculous wall.

They can't claim asylum on the wrong side of the wall.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 03, 2019, 01:42:24 PM
I've seen lots of photos where the army has laid several rows of concertina wire at the base iof he wall on our side.  So that short dig you keep harping on about will actually be a much longer tunnel.
Hop over on a ladder. Bring wire cutters. Use padding/blankets over or under the wire. Go to a less populated area.

The “coyotes” do this for a living.

Their fear is not a silly wall. It is the radar and drones which are used to detect illegal border crossing.

What you are proposing is not an intelligent solution.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 03, 2019, 01:46:48 PM
I've seen lots of photos where the army has laid several rows of concertina wire at the base iof he wall on our side.  So that short dig you keep harping on about will actually be a much longer tunnel.

Why do you need a wall then?

Why keep criminals in a jail cell?

I'll answer this rhetorical question before I get some fantastic scripted identity politics inspired liberal response... because with people who don't follow the rules or exploit the system, you need to have deterrents. Even if you want to argue that they'll all build tunnels, the fact is that they're primarily building tunnels because the wall is in the way....

Here is a brochure for you on securing prisons with fencing:

https://www.betafence.com/en/securing-prisons

Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 03, 2019, 02:22:23 PM
The wall will be at least 6 ft deep to discourage people from tunneling under it.

Yep... nobody can dig that deep.

Okay. But please explain to me how drones and censors will stop caravans of people from entering the country illegally


It’s a targeted response. Drones/sensors alert border patrol and track immigrant movement. BP drives out and makes arrests.

So they can claim asylum knowing that their cases won't be heard for years and that they will be let loose in America while awaiting a trial that most won't show up for.

They can claim asylum whether or not there is a ridiculous wall.

What exactly do you mean by they can claim asylum whether or not there is a wall?
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 03, 2019, 02:33:00 PM
It wouldn't take long for a coyote to learn how to rapidly scale and install a rock climbing anchor 30 feet up a concrete border wall.  Then the rest of the migrants are rapidly hoisted to the top of the wall with a rope and pulley system.

The high barrier fence/wall concept works for prisons where there is a guard in a tower with a rifle watching the prisoner struggle.

A wall is just the wrong analogy for the border.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 03, 2019, 02:43:51 PM
In fact, one could install a staircase up the Mexican side of the wall and down the US side of the wall.

A wall is better suited for this staircase because it is rigid.  You simply need to anchor 30" steel pegs into the wall to be used as the steps, and install a rope anchored along the ascent to clip your harness into for safety.




Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 03, 2019, 02:48:45 PM
In fact, one could install a staircase up the Mexican side of the wall and down the US side of the wall.

A wall is better suited for this staircase because it is rigid.  You simply need to anchor 30" steel pegs into the wall to be used as the steps, and install a rope anchored along the ascent to clip your harness into for safety.

A lot more work than just putting your right foot over your left and crossing the imaginary line....
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 03, 2019, 02:51:41 PM
Ericopoly

That's why censors and drones should be used in connection with a wall.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Cardboard on January 03, 2019, 02:53:11 PM
Drones and surveillance don't work. Even if you arrest the individuals, you need to send them back and Democrats/Liberals don't want that. They want to keep them in once they cross the border line.

Cardboard
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 03, 2019, 03:01:29 PM
In fact, one could install a staircase up the Mexican side of the wall and down the US side of the wall.

A wall is better suited for this staircase because it is rigid.  You simply need to anchor 30" steel pegs into the wall to be used as the steps, and install a rope anchored along the ascent to clip your harness into for safety.

A lot more work than just putting your right foot over your left and crossing the imaginary line....

So is a fence.  Next.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 03, 2019, 04:51:47 PM

What exactly do you mean by they can claim asylum whether or not there is a wall?
What's not to understand? You said, "So they can claim asylum knowing that their cases won't be heard for years and that they will be let loose in America while awaiting a trial that most won't show up for."

I'm saying, "What do asylum claims have anything to do with a wall?"

In fact, the gov't shutdown is causing hundreds (or more) of asylum cases to be delayed in the immigration courts.

Drones and surveillance don't work. Even if you arrest the individuals, you need to send them back and Democrats/Liberals don't want that. They want to keep them in once they cross the border line.

Cardboard

What does that have to do with a wall?

OK they climb a wall. Then you arrest them. Maybe you confiscate their ladder?
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 03, 2019, 05:01:04 PM
LC

Answering a valid question by asking an additional vague question is just wasting time and energy.  In fact it probably involves more effort than simply answering the question.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 03, 2019, 05:07:29 PM
Dude, what is your valid question that you are asking me? I must be misunderstanding because I just don't get your question. Can you be more clear?

I said a wall wont work, and that drones are more effective.

You said "well they will just claim asylum when they get caught by the drones"

I said, "Ok so how will a wall prevent that? They will just cross the wall, get caught, and claim asylum"

If you have an issue with asylum claims that is a different discussion.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Cardboard on January 03, 2019, 05:23:22 PM
A wall (warning/obstacle), then a no-go zone with drones guided via AI and armed with a Gatling gun would work.

Do we want to go there LC?

There are many means (less drastic than above) to force people to go through the proper process or door but, based on all previous discussions here, I do not expect any agreement from Democrats unless they are in office and want it.

Cardboard
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 03, 2019, 05:28:21 PM
You're original statement left me unclear.   I thought you might have been saying that asylum claims could be made while still on the Mexican side of the wall.  So I did what I thought was sensible:  I asked you to clarify.

I certainly don't believe that a wall will completely eliminate the problem.   But I firmly believe that it will cut illegal immigration dramatically.  A lot of the border is rough country and makes for very dangerous travel across desert.   I'm in favor of discouraging as many people as possible from making the trip.  I believe that a wall would in fact discourage all but the most determined.   (You guys fairly glibly talk about how easy it would be to tunnel under the wall out in the desert.   Well you better bring a lot of water with you.  I'm also not sure that I would want to pack in large, heavy ladders.)

Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 03, 2019, 05:28:23 PM
There are many means (less drastic than above) to force people to go through the proper process or door but, based on all previous discussions here, I do not expect any agreement from Democrats unless they are in office and want it.

Cardboard

You won't get agreement because your best idea is a multi-billion dollar waste of money that is defeated by a migrant worker with a ladder.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 03, 2019, 05:54:30 PM
The truth is that most of the liberals are lazy and want nothing more than to open the borders completely and let these bums ransack our country. That is why they oppose any sort of obstacle or deterrent. The degree to which even those here pull excuse after excuse out of their rears speaks volumes.

"oh but they'll use ladders", "oh they'll bring shovels and dig mile long tunnels", "oh this, oh that"... its hard to think we're having a common sense argument about walls being a deterrent because the logic with the liberal bunch is that if one person can still get over its a giant waste of time. Eric literally talked about things ranging from assembling makeshift staircases 30 feet up or teams of grapplers and then said its the exact same process as just walking unabated over an imaginary line! Then there is the "if the idea has flaws do nothing crowd". And last but not least the "its a $5B waste" crowd. Who by the way, regularly condones wasting multiples of that amount on handouts and freebies for both non contributing citizens and illegals who decide following the law isn't for them.... What a county...
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 03, 2019, 06:02:18 PM
You're original statement left me unclear.   I thought you might have been saying that asylum claims could be made while still on the Mexican side of the wall.  So I did what I thought was sensible:  I asked you to clarify.

I certainly don't believe that a wall will completely eliminate the problem.   But I firmly believe that it will cut illegal immigration dramatically.  A lot of the border is rough country and makes for very dangerous travel across desert.   I'm in favor of discouraging as many people as possible from making the trip.  I believe that a wall would in fact discourage all but the most determined.   (You guys fairly glibly talk about how easy it would be to tunnel under the wall out in the desert.   Well you better bring a lot of water with you.  I'm also not sure that I would want to pack in large, heavy ladders.)

Ah ok. No worries on the misunderstanding then.

To the second point - see this is really only the valid argument in favor of a wall.

The argument is this:
"A wall will deter so many migrants that it will be worth the construction costs + the ongoing costs"

This is IMHO a weak argument.

First, as you say, the area is already a massive deterrent. It is not as if migrants are walking through the lobby at the Ritz, and then run into an 8 ft wall. They have already committed to a dangerous journey, often they do months of exercise just to prepare for it. Hell, in many cases migrants already climb up landscape nearly as vertical as a wall.

Second, you are building a wall over completely deserted areas. Not hard for some coyotes to dig a tunnel or stash some ladders with nobody seeing them. Or hell, bring some dynamite and just blow a hole in the damn thing.

Third, the cartels already have been smuggling people into the US using dedicated tunnels and smuggling routes for decades.

Fourth, nobody even really knows how long the wall will take to build. Some of these areas are so inaccessible you can't even get people there, much less heavy machinery and building materials. This itself is a non-starter.

Fifth, as mentioned earlier, you are fighting a rising tide. Good luck if you think a wall is going to even make a dent.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 03, 2019, 06:14:53 PM
LC

The bulk of Border Agents would disagree with you on the need and effectiveness of a wall. 

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/apr/2/border-patrol-agents-back-trump-wall-survey-finds/
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Parsad on January 03, 2019, 07:13:40 PM

I certainly don't believe that a wall will completely eliminate the problem.   But I firmly believe that it will cut illegal immigration dramatically.  A lot of the border is rough country and makes for very dangerous travel across desert.   I'm in favor of discouraging as many people as possible from making the trip.  I believe that a wall would in fact discourage all but the most determined.   (You guys fairly glibly talk about how easy it would be to tunnel under the wall out in the desert.   Well you better bring a lot of water with you.  I'm also not sure that I would want to pack in large, heavy ladders.)

Do you know how many tunnels have been dug along the border?  Desperate people will always find a way to get through.  They aren't afraid of natural mountain barriers or raging rivers, let alone man-made walls that have zero risk.  If you want to reduce illegal immigration, hire 10 times more ICE officers; use more drones, more night vision, etc; increased pressure and funding from Mexico along their border; increased incarceration of the criminals, murderers, etc by hiring more ICE officers; as LC was saying in an earlier post...maybe offering residency, but no citizenship to the ones who have already been here decades is the right incentive/disincentive. 

You don't need a friggin' wall...how many Canadians are running across to the U.S.?  We don't want to come there.  Cheers!
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 03, 2019, 07:23:50 PM
You do realize that many of the same loonies, especially the ones from California, that are 100% against the wall also want to abolish ICE?
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Parsad on January 03, 2019, 07:32:21 PM
You do realize that many of the same loonies, especially the ones from California, that are 100% against the wall also want to abolish ICE?

Again, you're generalizing.  There are far more people down the middle than on the left.  You guys are arguing with Ericopoly, who I'm pretty sure is a centrist or Republican.  I'm pretty sure Eric is a NRA member as well.  He's telling you that billions on a wall is not a good solution.  Eric is also one of the best guys at analyzing a situation I know.  But nope...he must be a liberal commie who hates America and all he wants is to spread his liberal rhetoric to good, American patriots who love their country.  Give me a frickin' break!  You guys are probably calling the Bush family liberal commies who hate their country...Michelle Obama loving pansies!  Cheers!
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: rb on January 03, 2019, 07:35:14 PM

You don't need a friggin' wall...how many Canadians are running across to the U.S.?  We don't want to come there.  Cheers!
Bingo! This is actually the key to dealing with illegal immigration.

Leave alone the fact that the majority of illegal immigrants arrive in the US by aircraft. No matter how tall or deep you build your wall a plane will be able to go over.

People don't leave their countries because the US is so great. People prefer living in their countries. They leave because it's so shitty (like really shitty) over there. Canadians don't cross into the US because it's nice to leave in Canada. But forget Canada, because Canada is really good. Take Mexico. Over the past decade the US had negative migration with Mexico. So Mexicans decided to leave the US and cross back into Mexico. Why? Because Mexico just got slightly less shitty. That's all it takes.

Today most of these brownies that come over are from Central America. A place much smaller than Mexico. You want to stop illegal immigration? Do something to fix the region. Make it just a bit less shitty and they'll stop coming. Being fairly small it'll cost a lot less than walls, drones, patrol officers, prison guards, desert camps, and judges.

But of course none of this is about sensible solutions. Americans get excited about big walls, big tanks, and big guns. They play so much better on TV. So that's why this is a BS sandwich. It's not about fixing the problem, it's about doing something to feel better about yourself.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: rb on January 03, 2019, 07:37:21 PM
You do realize that many of the same loonies, especially the ones from California, that are 100% against the wall also want to abolish ICE?
Do you ever stop to think why people from places where the Latinos go, such as California are against "The Wall" but people in many of the places where they've maybe never even seen a Mexican a for it?
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 03, 2019, 07:38:29 PM
You do realize that many of the same loonies, especially the ones from California, that are 100% against the wall also want to abolish ICE?

Again, you're generalizing.  There are far more people down the middle than on the left.  You guys are arguing with Ericopoly, who I'm pretty sure is a centrist or Republican.  I'm pretty sure Eric is a NRA member as well.  He's telling you that billions on a wall is not a good solution.  Eric is also one of the best guys at analyzing a situation I know.  But nope...he must be a liberal commie who hates America and all he wants is to spread his liberal rhetoric to good, American patriots who love their country.  Give me a frickin' break!  You guys are probably calling the Bush family liberal commies who hate their country...Michelle Obama loving pansies!  Cheers!

I know nothing of Eric's political preferences other than the fact that he has on multiple occasions, stated that having a wall will not deter anyone and that if the wall is built, it will be as easy as strolling up with a shovel or lego like set of 30 ft stairs. This is so farfetched I frankly don't know what to conclude other than it fits with the rest of the liberal talking points, all of which coincidentally happen to be opposed to doing anything to address the situation at the border.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 03, 2019, 07:46:32 PM
You do realize that many of the same loonies, especially the ones from California, that are 100% against the wall also want to abolish ICE?
Do you ever stop to think why people from places where the Latinos go, such as California are against "The Wall" but people in many of the places where they've maybe never even seen a Mexican a for it?

I live in NJ. Theres tons. I've got no problems with the ones who respect our country and follow the law. I know illegals; I don't have a problem with any on a personal, individual basis. I have an issue in principle with looting our country and disrespecting the process that so many other current people have had the dignity to respect and do the proper way. One of my good friends came over from the UK and it took a decade and six figures....

I'll add I also have residences in Florida, which is just as bad. Unless I am missing your point, that being around Latinos/Mexicans makes you against the wall.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 03, 2019, 08:05:14 PM
LC

The bulk of Border Agents would disagree with you on the need and effectiveness of a wall. 

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/apr/2/border-patrol-agents-back-trump-wall-survey-finds/

So a few things:

1) They want "strategic barriers" - in other words fence in certain areas.
2) If we're lobbing partisan surveys, let me lob one back:

Quote
CBP’s “Capability Gap Analysis Process,” which surveys the needs of each Border Patrol station to see what additional tools they want in order to meet their mission of stopping people, drugs and other contraband from crossing illegally.

Of 902 capability gaps identified last year, just 37 referenced a need for fencing or a wall, the Democratic report said.

“Border Patrol agents have rarely recommended building a wall to address the most commonly identified vulnerabilities — or ‘capability gaps’ — along the southwest border,” the Democratic report concluded.

3) Of the 1,950-mile border with Mexico, 654 miles are currently protected by a barrier. Mr. Trump’s wall-building plans would bring that total to about 1,000 miles.

This third one should have been in my earlier post, but Trump's plan ignores the other 1000 miles. I am positive though that these migrants would never simply walk around the wall.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 03, 2019, 08:08:31 PM
But of course none of this is about sensible solutions. Americans get excited about big walls, big tanks, and big guns. They play so much better on TV. So that's why this is a BS sandwich. It's not about fixing the problem, it's about doing something to feel better about yourself.

Ding Ding Ding we have a winner.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 03, 2019, 09:53:20 PM
Eric literally talked about things ranging from assembling makeshift staircases 30 feet up or teams of grapplers and then said its the exact same process as just walking unabated over an imaginary line!

No, he didn't. 




Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 03, 2019, 10:13:41 PM
I know nothing of Eric's political preferences other than the fact that he has on multiple occasions, stated that having a wall will not deter anyone

No, he didn't.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Parsad on January 03, 2019, 11:04:15 PM
You do realize that many of the same loonies, especially the ones from California, that are 100% against the wall also want to abolish ICE?

Again, you're generalizing.  There are far more people down the middle than on the left.  You guys are arguing with Ericopoly, who I'm pretty sure is a centrist or Republican.  I'm pretty sure Eric is a NRA member as well.  He's telling you that billions on a wall is not a good solution.  Eric is also one of the best guys at analyzing a situation I know.  But nope...he must be a liberal commie who hates America and all he wants is to spread his liberal rhetoric to good, American patriots who love their country.  Give me a frickin' break!  You guys are probably calling the Bush family liberal commies who hate their country...Michelle Obama loving pansies!  Cheers!

I know nothing of Eric's political preferences other than the fact that he has on multiple occasions, stated that having a wall will not deter anyone and that if the wall is built, it will be as easy as strolling up with a shovel or lego like set of 30 ft stairs. This is so farfetched I frankly don't know what to conclude other than it fits with the rest of the liberal talking points, all of which coincidentally happen to be opposed to doing anything to address the situation at the border.

I'm pretty sure everyone, including this liberal commie (I'm a centrist), said that something has to be done about illegal immigration.  We just disagree on Trump's strategy to achieve it.  Kind of like all of the level-headed Trump staff that have quit or resigned as they came to their senses.   What is left...Conway, Donald Jr., Kushner, Stephen Miller, Ivanka and Ben Carson?  Cheers!
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 04, 2019, 12:09:36 AM
"This is a border surrounded by sand. Big sand. Desert sand".

This will be Trump's explanation when he fails to secure the border with $5b.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: meiroy on January 04, 2019, 01:21:23 AM


Maybe I misunderstood what he said on the press conference, but it seemed to me he said something like "or whatever you might call it", i.e. whatever you might call the "wall", so it doesn't have to be "a wall", but a thingie that can be like a wall, but is not a wall. So, I predict that the Democrats will offer to plant bushes along the border which would then form "a wall", hence ending the shutdown.  Timestamp it, I said it here first.





Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 04, 2019, 04:54:16 AM
LC

The bulk of Border Agents would disagree with you on the need and effectiveness of a wall. 

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/apr/2/border-patrol-agents-back-trump-wall-survey-finds/

So a few things:

1) They want "strategic barriers" - in other words fence in certain areas.
2) If we're lobbing partisan surveys, let me lob one back:

Quote
CBP’s “Capability Gap Analysis Process,” which surveys the needs of each Border Patrol station to see what additional tools they want in order to meet their mission of stopping people, drugs and other contraband from crossing illegally.

Of 902 capability gaps identified last year, just 37 referenced a need for fencing or a wall, the Democratic report said.

“Border Patrol agents have rarely recommended building a wall to address the most commonly identified vulnerabilities — or ‘capability gaps’ — along the southwest border,” the Democratic report concluded.

3) Of the 1,950-mile border with Mexico, 654 miles are currently protected by a barrier. Mr. Trump’s wall-building plans would bring that total to about 1,000 miles.

This third one should have been in my earlier post, but Trump's plan ignores the other 1000 miles. I am positive though that these migrants would never simply walk around the wall.

The report you quoted may not have.much support even within its own department.
https://fcw.com/articles/2018/04/02/border-tech-cbp-vitiello.aspx?m=1
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: rkbabang on January 04, 2019, 06:19:48 AM

You don't need a friggin' wall...how many Canadians are running across to the U.S.?  We don't want to come there.  Cheers!
Bingo! This is actually the key to dealing with illegal immigration.

Leave alone the fact that the majority of illegal immigrants arrive in the US by aircraft. No matter how tall or deep you build your wall a plane will be able to go over.

People don't leave their countries because the US is so great. People prefer living in their countries. They leave because it's so shitty (like really shitty) over there. Canadians don't cross into the US because it's nice to leave in Canada. But forget Canada, because Canada is really good. Take Mexico. Over the past decade the US had negative migration with Mexico. So Mexicans decided to leave the US and cross back into Mexico. Why? Because Mexico just got slightly less shitty. That's all it takes.

Today most of these brownies that come over are from Central America. A place much smaller than Mexico. You want to stop illegal immigration? Do something to fix the region. Make it just a bit less shitty and they'll stop coming. Being fairly small it'll cost a lot less than walls, drones, patrol officers, prison guards, desert camps, and judges.

But of course none of this is about sensible solutions. Americans get excited about big walls, big tanks, and big guns. They play so much better on TV. So that's why this is a BS sandwich. It's not about fixing the problem, it's about doing something to feel better about yourself.

+1.
End the drug war, which will make Mexico a hell of a lot less shitty.  And save the US taxpayers a hell of a lot of money. +
Free trade with Mexico, which will make the US and Mexico less shitty  + 
End welfare/foodstamp/housing/healthcare benefits, at least to non-citizens (although I'd like to end it completely to everyone) =
Less people will come in and the ones that do come will be to work not mooch.

No need for billions of dollars on an ineffective wall.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 04, 2019, 06:35:40 AM


Maybe I misunderstood what he said on the press conference, but it seemed to me he said something like "or whatever you might call it", i.e. whatever you might call the "wall", so it doesn't have to be "a wall", but a thingie that can be like a wall, but is not a wall. So, I predict that the Democrats will offer to plant bushes along the border which would then form "a wall", hence ending the shutdown.  Timestamp it, I said it here first.

A botanical garden!  I spent last weekend and New Years Eve in Avalon on Catalina Island where the botanical garden full of cactus is beautiful!  Very sharp prickles. 

Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Cardboard on January 04, 2019, 07:17:25 AM
"Quote from: rb on January 03, 2019, 07:35:14 PM

    Quote from: Parsad on January 03, 2019, 07:13:40 PM


        You don't need a friggin' wall...how many Canadians are running across to the U.S.?  We don't want to come there.  Cheers!

    Bingo! This is actually the key to dealing with illegal immigration.

    Leave alone the fact that the majority of illegal immigrants arrive in the US by aircraft. No matter how tall or deep you build your wall a plane will be able to go over.

    People don't leave their countries because the US is so great. People prefer living in their countries. They leave because it's so shitty (like really shitty) over there. Canadians don't cross into the US because it's nice to leave in Canada. But forget Canada, because Canada is really good. Take Mexico. Over the past decade the US had negative migration with Mexico. So Mexicans decided to leave the US and cross back into Mexico. Why? Because Mexico just got slightly less shitty. That's all it takes.

    Today most of these brownies that come over are from Central America. A place much smaller than Mexico. You want to stop illegal immigration? Do something to fix the region. Make it just a bit less shitty and they'll stop coming. Being fairly small it'll cost a lot less than walls, drones, patrol officers, prison guards, desert camps, and judges.

    But of course none of this is about sensible solutions. Americans get excited about big walls, big tanks, and big guns. They play so much better on TV. So that's why this is a BS sandwich. It's not about fixing the problem, it's about doing something to feel better about yourself.


+1.
End the drug war, which will make Mexico a hell of a lot less shitty.  And save the US taxpayers a hell of a lot of money. +
Free trade with Mexico, which will make the US and Mexico less shitty  +
End welfare/foodstamp/housing/healthcare benefits, at least to non-citizens (although I'd like to end it completely to everyone) =
Less people will come in and the ones that do come will be to work not mooch.

No need for billions of dollars on an ineffective wall."



This is too funny!

A 2nd or 3rd degree derivative to fix it!

I guess that America should make every country better so that immigration becomes more controlled? Should we also install our own dictators, army and regimes in these countries to straight things up?

Reality is that very few on this thread are proposing any real solution. Liberals hypocritically want fully open border while the Libertarians will shoot any who trespasses their properties.

Cardboard

Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 04, 2019, 07:46:50 AM
I guess that America should make every country better so that immigration becomes more controlled? Should we also install our own dictators, army and regimes in these countries to straight things up?

No, that's how we got here today according to Noam Chomsky who blames the Obama Administration:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/11/23/noam_chomsky_members_of_migrant_caravan_are_fleeing_from_misery__horrors_created_by_the_us.html

The most extreme source of migrants right now is Honduras. Why Honduras? Well, it was always bitterly oppressed. But in 2009, Honduras had a mildly reformist president, Mel Zelaya. The Honduran powerful, rich elite couldn’t tolerate that. A military coup took place, expelled him from the country. It was harshly condemned all through the hemisphere, with one notable exception: the United States. The Obama administration refused to call it a military coup, because if they had, they would have been compelled by law to withdraw military funding from the military regime, which was imposing a regime of brutal terror. Honduras became the murder capital of the world. A fraudulent election took place under the military junta—again, harshly condemned all over the hemisphere, most of the world, but not by the United States. The Obama administration praised Honduras for carrying out an election, moving towards democracy and so on. Now people are fleeing from the misery and horrors for which we are responsible.

Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 04, 2019, 08:11:25 AM
Make other countries great is the solution? LOL that s not our job. Remove drug related issues? again, LOL, seriously? You don't think we've been fighting the cartels for decades now? The political system makes our enforcement agencies incompetent. Afghanistan should have been a parking lot 6 months after 9/11. Instead we took two decades... The war on drugs will never be won unless serious changes are made to our approach.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: rkbabang on January 04, 2019, 08:11:44 AM
"Quote from: rb on January 03, 2019, 07:35:14 PM

    Quote from: Parsad on January 03, 2019, 07:13:40 PM


        You don't need a friggin' wall...how many Canadians are running across to the U.S.?  We don't want to come there.  Cheers!

    Bingo! This is actually the key to dealing with illegal immigration.

    Leave alone the fact that the majority of illegal immigrants arrive in the US by aircraft. No matter how tall or deep you build your wall a plane will be able to go over.

    People don't leave their countries because the US is so great. People prefer living in their countries. They leave because it's so shitty (like really shitty) over there. Canadians don't cross into the US because it's nice to leave in Canada. But forget Canada, because Canada is really good. Take Mexico. Over the past decade the US had negative migration with Mexico. So Mexicans decided to leave the US and cross back into Mexico. Why? Because Mexico just got slightly less shitty. That's all it takes.

    Today most of these brownies that come over are from Central America. A place much smaller than Mexico. You want to stop illegal immigration? Do something to fix the region. Make it just a bit less shitty and they'll stop coming. Being fairly small it'll cost a lot less than walls, drones, patrol officers, prison guards, desert camps, and judges.

    But of course none of this is about sensible solutions. Americans get excited about big walls, big tanks, and big guns. They play so much better on TV. So that's why this is a BS sandwich. It's not about fixing the problem, it's about doing something to feel better about yourself.


+1.
End the drug war, which will make Mexico a hell of a lot less shitty.  And save the US taxpayers a hell of a lot of money. +
Free trade with Mexico, which will make the US and Mexico less shitty  +
End welfare/foodstamp/housing/healthcare benefits, at least to non-citizens (although I'd like to end it completely to everyone) =
Less people will come in and the ones that do come will be to work not mooch.

No need for billions of dollars on an ineffective wall."



This is too funny!

A 2nd or 3rd degree derivative to fix it!

I guess that America should make every country better so that immigration becomes more controlled? Should we also install our own dictators, army and regimes in these countries to straight things up?

Reality is that very few on this thread are proposing any real solution. Liberals hypocritically want fully open border while the Libertarians will shoot any who trespasses their properties.

Cardboard



Our war on drugs is actively making these countries hell holes.

Also many are coming here to mooch off of our available benefits, I suggest fixing that problem at the root not trying to put up a wall which will not reverse the incentive the moochers have for wanting to come here.  They will still find a way in.  Fix the cause of the problem not try to band-aid a fix which won't work in the long run.

Once you fix the mooching problem any opponents to immigration at that point are just racists who don't like foreigners.  There is nothing that can be done about that problem.   Wall or no wall people will come in, there is no way to limit immigration to only white Europeans who don't offend the alt-right's sensibilities.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 04, 2019, 08:16:38 AM
Remove drug related issues? again, LOL, seriously? You don't think we've been fighting the cartels for decades now?

The war on drugs is the reason the cartels exist in the first place.  We can eradicate them from Washington D.C. with a stroke of the pen.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 04, 2019, 10:17:01 AM
People come here to work and live under relative rule of law.

I agree with the libertarians that the war on drugs creates cartels, who grow so powerful they essentially govern these countries. A large part of the violence and corruption that many of these people are fleeing is due to these cartels.

Implement a pseudo-status as I proposed earlier will also help as well. It allows the US to essentially charge a premium for migrants to live and work in the US, despite the non-citizenship status.

Cardboard, you say there are no real solutions being proposed, but these are two right here. Your solution is a nonsense wall.

Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 04, 2019, 12:42:38 PM
Milton Freedman once wrote that you can either have open borders or a welfare state but you can't have both.  You guys toss out solutions, but no one has explained to me how you're getting rid of benefits for illegal immigrants.  Personally I think we have a much better chance of closing the southern border than cutting benefits.   

BTW - You guys are screaming about spending what amounts to pocket lint for a border wall when compared to the government's budget.  Even if the project is a total failure, we've spent on it  almost nothing from a statistical basis.  Hell, we're sending 12 billion this year to central America to help solve their problems.   Money sent to some of the most corrupt governments in the world that will never be properly spent.  You guys are like professional mourners when someone dies in a border detention center, notwithstanding that the  number of deaths in detention centers is absurdly low - less than 20 per year.  You guys also go ballistic when a unarmed black man is killed by a cop - again an absurdly low number of about 20 per year.  Yet , ironically you don't seem to care when Americans are killed by illegal immigrants - a not insignificant number - somewhere around 1000 per year.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Cardboard on January 04, 2019, 12:43:04 PM
"Cardboard, you say there are no real solutions being proposed, but these are two right here. Your solution is a nonsense wall."

A wall makes a ton of sense but, it does not work alone. You still need patrol and strong deportation laws for those who breach.

I don't claim to be an expert but, jail people are, Russians were in Berlin and more importantly ICE knows better than any of us.

Cardboard
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 04, 2019, 01:26:25 PM
Well, I disagree about a wall making sense, but I do agree we need a layered approach. I also think we need policy reform as one of those layers.

I think we should enact the most efficient "layers" first, i.e. get the best bang-for-the-buck.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 04, 2019, 02:26:06 PM
You guys also go ballistic when a unarmed black man is killed by a cop - again an absurdly low number of about 20 per year.  Yet , ironically you don't seem to care when Americans are killed by illegal immigrants - a not insignificant number - somewhere around 1000 per year.

Illegal Immigrant Crime Facts

 Texas is the only state that keeps data on the number of convictions of illegal immigrants for specific crimes (I sent versions of Public Interest Requests to every state). In Texas in 2015, the rate of convictions per 100,000 illegal immigrants was 16 percent lower below that of native-born Americans. That is little consolation to the victims and their families, but the population of illegal immigrants is less likely to be convicted of murder than native-born Americans in Texas. If nationwide incarceration rates by immigration status are any clue, that trend likely holds nationwide.

https://www.cato.org/blog/murder-mollie-tibbetts-illegal-immigrant-crime-facts
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 04, 2019, 02:40:16 PM
BTW - You guys are screaming about spending what amounts to pocket lint for a border wall when compared to the government's budget.

Trump reminds me of Chris Rock, coming to Congress asking to fund "just one sip" of his wall at a time.  Apparently, it is fooling some people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNQRqAoT-2c



Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 04, 2019, 03:43:27 PM
BTW - You guys are screaming about spending what amounts to pocket lint for a border wall when compared to the government's budget.

Trump reminds me of Chris Rock, coming to Congress asking to fund "just one sip" of his wall at a time.  Apparently, it is fooling some people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNQRqAoT-2c

You guys are pretty good at tossing out Democratic talking points in a snarky manner.  But I can't help but notice that the hard issues are conveniently ignore.  For example you commented on everything that we in my post except for the main part - You can't have open borders and a welfare state.  https://www.heritage.org/immigration/commentary/look-milton-open-borders-and-the-welfare-state
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 04, 2019, 03:54:06 PM
I can see that Trump doesn’t have the thinnest of skins.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 04, 2019, 04:01:01 PM
And Schumer isn't the most arrogant.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 04, 2019, 04:01:40 PM
 Mark, what do you think of the idea I proposed on p1 of this thread?
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 04, 2019, 04:14:42 PM
Milton Freedman once wrote that you can either have open borders or a welfare state but you can't have both.  You guys toss out solutions, but no one has explained to me how you're getting rid of benefits for illegal immigrants.  Personally I think we have a much better chance of closing the southern border than cutting benefits.   

BTW - You guys are screaming about spending what amounts to pocket lint for a border wall when compared to the government's budget.  Even if the project is a total failure, we've spent on it  almost nothing from a statistical basis.  Hell, we're sending 12 billion this year to central America to help solve their problems.   Money sent to some of the most corrupt governments in the world that will never be properly spent.  You guys are like professional mourners when someone dies in a border detention center, notwithstanding that the  number of deaths in detention centers is absurdly low - less than 20 per year.  You guys also go ballistic when a unarmed black man is killed by a cop - again an absurdly low number of about 20 per year.  Yet , ironically you don't seem to care when Americans are killed by illegal immigrants - a not insignificant number - somewhere around 1000 per year.

I'll just highlight this great post to emphasize that of course they didn't address any of it. Especially the bold. Excellent post.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 04, 2019, 04:26:48 PM
Mark, the way you typecast others and then decry them as arrogant is hilarious.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 05, 2019, 09:04:10 AM
Donald "Nobody knows more about drone technology than me" Trump

https://youtu.be/07xU4JYPNKI
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 05, 2019, 11:05:42 AM
Apparently you guys also like to ignore studies that counter your narratives.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3099992
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Schwab711 on January 05, 2019, 11:31:48 AM
Apparently you guys also like to ignore studies that counter your narratives

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3099992

https://www.cato.org/blog/fatal-flaw-john-r-lott-jrs-study-illegal-immigrant-crime-arizona

I don't know enough to know if fatal flaw is hyperbole but he's not measuring what he states.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 05, 2019, 11:46:20 AM
The fatal flaw as I understand it is found in the opinion of the opposition researchers.  Okay.  What's the fatal flaw of this report?  https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3099992
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Schwab711 on January 05, 2019, 11:59:51 AM
It says in the article that non-citizen includes legal and non-legal immigrants. I don't really know much about this subject but I had seen this paper/article combo before and figured I'd share. Its a tough question to answer because by nature, illegal immigrants are probably poorly documented. Plus, they are committing a violation or misdemeanor by being here so if I was arguing the other camp I wouldn't relent on less than 100% 'criminal' rate (and ignore any violation vs misdemeanor or DACA nuance).
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 05, 2019, 12:05:28 PM
My apologies.  This is the second article that I meant to cite:
https://cis.org/Camarota/NonCitizens-Committed-Disproportionate-Share-Federal-Crimes-201116
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 05, 2019, 12:20:07 PM
My apologies.  This is the second article that I meant to cite:
https://cis.org/Camarota/NonCitizens-Committed-Disproportionate-Share-Federal-Crimes-201116

Quoting:

The commission's data does not distinguish legal status among non-citizens.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 05, 2019, 12:22:45 PM
An example of those non-citizens committing the Federal crimes would be the 9/11 terrorists who came here on visas.

It would be nice if we could deport ignorant white men driving huge trucks.  I would get behind that in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 05, 2019, 12:35:48 PM
If the Feds have poor data with respect to the rate non-citizens commit crimes, then your reasoning applies to the studies you're citing.
As per the study:
"the biggest problem with studying immigrant crime is that states and localities do not systematically track the country of birth, citizenship, or legal status of those they arrest, convict, or incarcerate. But the federal government does track the citizenship of those it convicts."

Besides "non-citizen" crime is exactly what we are discussing.  Illegal immigrants are non-citizens just like the status of the terrorist ls.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 05, 2019, 12:42:10 PM
Additionally  the report as states:

"Because it is easier to make an immigration case, federal prosecutors sometimes charge illegal immigrants only with immigration violations, even when they have committed serious non-immigration crimes. Once convicted, an immigrant will still normally serve some time and then be deported, which is often seen by prosecutors as good enough. This, of course, does not happen with citizens. But because of this, conviction data for non-immigration crimes will tend to understate the level of criminal activity among non-citizens."
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 05, 2019, 12:55:47 PM
Besides "non-citizen" crime is exactly what we are discussing.  Illegal immigrants are non-citizens just like the status of the terrorist ls.

Oh, really??  That's exactly what we are discussing?  How will a wall keep out "non-citizens" holding visas, which isn't "just like the status of the terrorist", it IS THE STATUS of the terrorist.


Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 05, 2019, 01:00:58 PM
No.  We're discussing the crimes committed by non-citizens. We're not discussing visa overstays.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 05, 2019, 01:01:58 PM
If the Feds have poor data with respect to the rate non-citizens commit crimes, then your reasoning applies to the studies you're citing.

The article that I cited provided the crime data for the largest border state, Texas, which also happens to be the only state for which we have crime statistics differentiating between illegal vs legal status.

This is the only data we have to go on.  In Texas, the illegals commit crimes at a lower rate than natural-born residents.

Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 05, 2019, 01:04:03 PM
No.  We're discussing the crimes committed by non-citizens. We're not discussing visa overstays.

And here I was thinking this discussion was about a wall that would keep out illegals.  But it's actually been about non-citizens this whole time?
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 05, 2019, 01:07:24 PM
I can certainly understand why you want to change the topic.  But don't forget youopened the door for this discussion when you claimed that illegal immigrants commit fewer crimes than native born Americans.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 05, 2019, 01:17:41 PM
I can certainly understand why you want to change the topic.

Huh?

  But don't forget youopened the door for this discussion when you claimed that illegal immigrants commit fewer crimes than native born Americans.

I did?  When did I say that?


Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 05, 2019, 01:22:19 PM
Page 10
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 05, 2019, 01:28:14 PM
Page 10

Can you be more specific?  Every post has a "reply #" and you come back with "page 10".

I see only 3 pages to this discussion but depending on your config you may have fewer replies per page.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 05, 2019, 01:40:11 PM
Crickets.

Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 05, 2019, 02:04:16 PM
Per your post
"That is little consolation to the victims and their families, but the population of illegal immigrants is less likely to be convicted of murder than native-born Americans in Texas. If nationwide incarceration rates by immigration status are any clue, that trend likely holds nationwide. "

Based on the Arizona study and the Federal study,  I would submit that the trend doesn't hold.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 05, 2019, 02:07:21 PM
Per your post
"That is little consolation to the victims and their families, but the population of illegal immigrants is less likely to be convicted of murder than native-born Americans in Texas. If nationwide incarceration rates by immigration status are any clue, that trend likely holds nationwide. "

Based on the Arizona study and the Federal study,  I would submit that the trend doesn't hold.

Now we all know that you didn’t read the Cato article.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 05, 2019, 02:08:37 PM
That's right - change the conversation again.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 05, 2019, 02:12:18 PM
It’s cute you libs have made this a subject about relative crime rates but the bottom like is that there should be zero crimes from people that shouldn’t be here. They shouldn’t be allowed to get in, and the ones who do should be forced to gtfo. Instead you jokers rationalize it with bs about how they behave more or less in line with citizens... who cares. They aren’t.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 05, 2019, 02:19:32 PM
Amen Greg.
BTW Even if you believe their studies and assume an anomaly exists, it's short lived.  By the second generation it disappears.  As I understand it, the Dreamers commit as many crimes as anyone else.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 05, 2019, 02:44:48 PM
This is the danger with the Libtards. You entertain the nonsense long enough and before you know it you are debating something that doesn't even matter. Only when you take a step back and go "holy shit these people are arguing that folks who shouldn't even be here are now good because they are under their quota?!?!?! WTF

I hate to even say something like this but maybe if/when some of the crimes committed by illegals happened directly to the loved ones of some of these liberal nuts, they'd have a different perspective. At that point I'd wrestle between saying "yea I was right", "I'm sorry to hear that", and throwing in their faces their own statistics about how "it happened at the same rate as it could have with citizens"....
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 05, 2019, 03:05:33 PM
That's right - change the conversation again.

Hint:  You were quoting the Cato author's words, not mine. 
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 05, 2019, 03:19:08 PM
When you don't properly attribute your sources ...  you clearly presented the passage as your own.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: cubsfan on January 05, 2019, 04:01:11 PM
It's so obvious that criminal aliens are a huge problem - this article seems relevant.
California prisons have around 30,000 criminal aliens - a staggering number.


https://cis.org/Huennekens/DOJ-26-Federal-Prisoners-Are-Aliens

Over 250,000 criminal aliens were booked in Texas local jails between June 2011 and April 2018. These individuals were charged with more than 663,000 offenses, including:

1,351 homicide charges
79,049 assault charges
18,685 burglary charges
79,900 drug charges
815 kidnapping charges
44,882 theft charges
50,777 obstructing police charges
4,292 robbery charges
7,156 sexual assault charges
9,938 weapons charges.

The data from Texas sheds light on the danger posed by criminal aliens to local communities. More states should follow Texas's example and release information such as this to allow policymakers and researchers access to this critical data.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 05, 2019, 04:10:50 PM
Amen cubsfan
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 05, 2019, 05:24:03 PM
No.  We're discussing the crimes committed by non-citizens. We're not discussing visa overstays.

And here I was thinking this discussion was about a wall that would keep out illegals.  But it's actually been about non-citizens this whole time?

When you're wrong about Topic A, just decry that Topic A has really been Topic B all along.

Do this while inheriting an empire from your dad and you can even become President!
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 05, 2019, 05:55:15 PM
No.  We're discussing the crimes committed by non-citizens. We're not discussing visa overstays.

And here I was thinking this discussion was about a wall that would keep out illegals.  But it's actually been about non-citizens this whole time?

When you're wrong about Topic A, just decry that Topic A has really been Topic B all along.

Do this while inheriting an empire from your dad and you can even become President!


A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

Which are you, LC?
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 05, 2019, 06:04:58 PM
Topic A- The Wall
LC, Eric, and the like claim that because somebody(cartels were an example) can find a way around it, we shouldn't have one

Topic B- Crime
LC, Eric, and the like claim that because people who aren't citizens commit crimes at similar rates to citizens, they shouldn't be viewed as a problem...

I think we covered both A and B. You guys want to try C? I don't think it'll go any better for you
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Schwab711 on January 05, 2019, 06:10:13 PM
If illegals are a problem, what is the thought on people that hire illegals? Aren't they basically the drug dealers in all of this?
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: investor-man on January 05, 2019, 07:08:09 PM
If illegals are a problem, what is the thought on people that hire illegals? Aren't they basically the drug dealers in all of this?

Topic C: anybody surprised Trump has hired a bunch of illegal aliens? Not me

My take on illegal immigration is I'm happy they come. We clearly need them and they provide a lot of value. It would be much better if they could come here legally, and pay taxes on their wages with a path toward citizenship, but there a billion political landmines stopping that including minimum wage laws, so we've got what we've got.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 05, 2019, 07:09:43 PM
No.  We're discussing the crimes committed by non-citizens. We're not discussing visa overstays.

And here I was thinking this discussion was about a wall that would keep out illegals.  But it's actually been about non-citizens this whole time?

When you're wrong about Topic A, just decry that Topic A has really been Topic B all along.

Do this while inheriting an empire from your dad and you can even become President!


A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

Which are you, LC?

Is this some veiled attempt at an insult? At least Trump is direct, albeit an idiot. If you're going to emulate him in the latter you should aim to pair it with the former.

Topic A- The Wall
LC, Eric, and the like claim that because somebody(cartels were an example) can find a way around it, we shouldn't have one

Topic B- Crime
LC, Eric, and the like claim that because people who aren't citizens commit crimes at similar rates to citizens, they shouldn't be viewed as a problem...

I think we covered both A and B. You guys want to try C? I don't think it'll go any better for you


Hey Greg, this is really great - we're on 3x now with this quote below from Sanjeev. You really are a broken record!

Quote
I'm pretty sure everyone, including this liberal commie (I'm a centrist), said that something has to be done about illegal immigration.  We just disagree on Trump's strategy to achieve it.  Kind of like all of the level-headed Trump staff that have quit or resigned as they came to their senses.   What is left...Conway, Donald Jr., Kushner, Stephen Miller, Ivanka and Ben Carson?  Cheers!
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 05, 2019, 09:36:05 PM
No.  We're discussing the crimes committed by non-citizens. We're not discussing visa overstays.

And here I was thinking this discussion was about a wall that would keep out illegals.  But it's actually been about non-citizens this whole time?

When you're wrong about Topic A, just decry that Topic A has really been Topic B all along.

Do this while inheriting an empire from your dad and you can even become President!


A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

Which are you, LC?

Is this some veiled attempt at an insult? At least Trump is direct, albeit an idiot. If you're going to emulate him in the latter you should aim to pair it with the former.

Topic A- The Wall
LC, Eric, and the like claim that because somebody(cartels were an example) can find a way around it, we shouldn't have one

Topic B- Crime
LC, Eric, and the like claim that because people who aren't citizens commit crimes at similar rates to citizens, they shouldn't be viewed as a problem...

I think we covered both A and B. You guys want to try C? I don't think it'll go any better for you


Hey Greg, this is really great - we're on 3x now with this quote below from Sanjeev. You really are a broken record!

Quote
I'm pretty sure everyone, including this liberal commie (I'm a centrist), said that something has to be done about illegal immigration.  We just disagree on Trump's strategy to achieve it.  Kind of like all of the level-headed Trump staff that have quit or resigned as they came to their senses.   What is left...Conway, Donald Jr., Kushner, Stephen Miller, Ivanka and Ben Carson?  Cheers!

Cool, keep ducking questions with copy and paste!

Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 05, 2019, 09:37:02 PM
Milton Freedman once wrote that you can either have open borders or a welfare state but you can't have both.  You guys toss out solutions, but no one has explained to me how you're getting rid of benefits for illegal immigrants.  Personally I think we have a much better chance of closing the southern border than cutting benefits.   

BTW - You guys are screaming about spending what amounts to pocket lint for a border wall when compared to the government's budget.  Even if the project is a total failure, we've spent on it  almost nothing from a statistical basis.  Hell, we're sending 12 billion this year to central America to help solve their problems.   Money sent to some of the most corrupt governments in the world that will never be properly spent.  You guys are like professional mourners when someone dies in a border detention center, notwithstanding that the  number of deaths in detention centers is absurdly low - less than 20 per year.  You guys also go ballistic when a unarmed black man is killed by a cop - again an absurdly low number of about 20 per year.  Yet , ironically you don't seem to care when Americans are killed by illegal immigrants - a not insignificant number - somewhere around 1000 per year.

I'll just highlight this great post to emphasize that of course they didn't address any of it. Especially the bold. Excellent post.

Still waiting your response LC!
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 05, 2019, 09:53:17 PM
Alaska has the second lowest population of undocumented immigrants, tied with the District of Columbia and Louisiana.

https://www.newsmax.com/fastfeatures/illegal-immigration-alaska/2015/09/25/id/693365/


2017 homicide rates per 100,000:

USA:  5.3

Washington D.C.  17
Louisiana:  12.4
Alaska:  8.4


Along border with Mexico:
Texas:       5
California:  4.6
Arizona: 5.9
New Mexico: 7.1

Highest homicide rates:
Alabama:  8.3
Alaska:  8.4
Arkansas: 8.6
Illinois:  7.8
Louisiana:  12.4
Maryland:  9
Mississippi: 8.2
Missouri:  9.8
Nevada:  9.1
South Carolina: 7.8




Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 05, 2019, 11:34:53 PM
When you don't properly attribute your sources ...  you clearly presented the passage as your own.

Yes, I put the link to my source at the end of it because I was hoping to pass it off as my own. 

Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 06, 2019, 12:38:49 AM
 Illegal immigrants are 47 percent less likely to be incarcerated than natives. Legal immigrants are 78 percent less likely to be incarcerated than natives.

https://www.cato.org/publications/immigration-research-policy-brief/their-numbers-demographics-countries-origin
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 06, 2019, 12:40:54 AM
I wonder how likely Trump is to be incarcerated? 

Would like to see the incarceration rate of Trump associates vs the incarceration rates of aliens.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 06, 2019, 05:16:18 AM

Ericopoly

It's interesting how you keep ignoring the Federal Data.  If you would read this quote from The Hill, you would see that a large number of illegals arrested by the feds are from the border states which are typically absent from state studies:
(BTW - please note the use of quotation marks and the clear indication that this is a quote from the article cited.)

"Research conducted by the federal government oversight organization Judicial Watch in 2014 documents that 50 percent of all federal crimes were committed near our border with Mexico. 

Of the 61,529 criminal cases filed by federal prosecutors; 40 percent or 24,746 were in court districts along the southern borders of California, Arizona and Texas. 

The Western District of Texas had the nation’s most significant crime rate with over 6,300 cases filed; followed by the Southern District of Texas with slightly over 6,000 cases. 

The Southern California District with nearly 4,900 cases; New Mexico with nearly 4,000 cases and Arizona with over 3,500 criminal cases ranked 3rd, 4th and 5th.

The U.S. Department of Justice documents that in 2014, 19 percent or over 12,000 criminal cases filed by prosecutors were for violent crimes; and over 22 percent or 13,300 cases were for drug related felonies. 

That same year, the U.S. Sentencing Commission found that 75 percent of all criminal defendants who were convicted and sentenced for federal drug offenses were illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants were also involved in 17 percent of all drug trafficking sentences and one third of all federal prison sentences.

The U.S. Department of Justice and the U.S. Sentencing Commission reported that as of 2014, illegal immigrants were convicted and sentenced for over 13 percent of all crimes committed in the U.S. 

According to the FBI, 67,642 murders were committed in the U.S. from 2005 through 2008, and 115,717 from 2003 through 2009. The General Accounting Office documents that criminal immigrants committed 25,064 of these murders. 

Illegal immigrants clearly commit a level of violent and drug related crimes disproportionate to their population.
K
In California alone, over 2,400 illegal immigrants out of a total prison population of 130,000 are imprisoned in the state’s prison system for the crime of homicide. "

https://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/crime/329589-the-truth-about-crime-illegal-immigrants-and-sanctuary-cities

Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Schwab711 on January 06, 2019, 06:35:12 AM
This is quoting an opinion piece that mixes apple and oranges. I'm not saying other views of data are better but most of this article is like the Lott study, not saying what it's trying to say.

How do you feel about people that hire illegals, which encourages more to come? Are they fine?
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 06, 2019, 06:54:41 AM
Hi schwab,

Do illegal immigrants commit more crimes than native Americans?  Maybe? Maybe not? Good data is extremely hard to come by.   I'm just tired of people citing studies (like the Cato study - who is an advocate of open boders)  as proof of a proposition that is highly debatable.

I would certainly be willing (if I were in power) to toughen rules on employers who hire illegal immigrants in exchange for a relatively secure border.

One more thing, Greg is right - the rate of criminal activity of illegals compare to the general population isn't really the point.  Regardless of whether they commit crimes at the same rate as everyone else, they are still greatly adding to the overall crime numbers. In other words, they are in fact committing large numbers of serious crimes.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Schwab711 on January 06, 2019, 08:00:15 AM
Considering the number of illegal immigrants that have been found to have worked for Trump Org and allegations, should they be investigated for felony illegal harboring?

www.nj.com/news/2019/01/trumps-nj-golf-club-shielded-undocumented-immigrants-from-secret-service-report-says.html
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 06, 2019, 08:03:56 AM
85.8% of prisoners held in Federal prisons are NOT aliens convicted of non-immigration offenses.


one in five BOP inmates is an alien.
about 29 percent of aliens in BOP custody have committed immigration offenses such as illegal reentry after removal.

https://cis.org/Huennekens/DOJ-26-Federal-Prisoners-Are-Aliens
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 06, 2019, 08:18:45 AM
10% of US prisoners are in Federal custody:


The Department of Justice has for years tried to tally the number of aliens in state and local jails. The inmates in these facilities make up 90 percent of the total incarcerated population.

https://cis.org/Huennekens/DOJ-26-Federal-Prisoners-Are-Aliens
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 06, 2019, 09:12:58 AM
85.8% of prisoners held in Federal prisons are NOT aliens convicted of non-immigration offenses.


one in five BOP inmates is an alien.
about 29 percent of aliens in BOP custody have committed immigration offenses such as illegal reentry after removal.

https://cis.org/Huennekens/DOJ-26-Federal-Prisoners-Are-Aliens

Another highly misleading spin on the data.  If you look at the link for 1st quarter 2018, you will find that it actually states  that 29% of aliens  in BOP custody have committed immigration offenses such as illegal reentry or human trafficking.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 06, 2019, 11:41:51 AM
Cool, keep ducking questions with copy and paste!
Greg, nobody is ducking your questions. They were ignored because they were repetitive. But since you've called me out I'll have to address them.

To your first point. You've raised this same point at least 3 times now: ""Well since somebody will find the way around the wall, you therefore think we shouldn't build it!"

It has been addressed multiple times in this thread, by multiple people. The opposition to the wall is more nuanced than your one-liner tries to categorize it. There's about 100 posts in this thread alone showing the detail as to why "we think we shouldn't build it". And I'm not going to repeat them all over. If you'd like you can re-read this thread and figure it out from there.

To the second point on crime. Illegal immigrants probably commit non-immigration related crimes at a lower rate than citizens/legal immigrants. At worst it's probably at an equal rate. It doesn't really make a difference. A wall will not prevent illegal immigration. It will not even make a dent. These people will still be coming over, and committing crimes (at probably an equal-to-lesser rate to US citizens).

To your other post about US federal aid to central american countries - a chunk of this money is "war on drug" money. We have addressed this point. The war on drugs creates a huge barrier to entry. This allows entrenched ground ("cartels" if you will) to charge a non-market premium, further entrenching them. Now the US further spends money overseas ("Foreign aid") to fight cartels. I think we need a better solution.

To the other money - it's a sunk cost. We are spending it regardless of whether we will build a wall or not. Mark's argument can be summed up like this: Did you know the US spent and will spend billions on Project XYZ! A wall is a drop in the bucket in comparison! Therefore this justifies the wall!"

Well no, in fact it does not. If the wall was such a good idea it should be justified on it's own merits - not in relation to something else. This is where it fails, this is why so many people think it is a ridiculous plan.

Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 06, 2019, 12:27:40 PM
https://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/crime/329589-the-truth-about-crime-illegal-immigrants-and-sanctuary-cities
Mark, read your GAO report. The relevant statistic is on page 23.
https://www.gao.gov/new.items/d11187.pdf

Quote
Figure 11: Primary Convictions Related to Criminal Alien Federal Offenders in
Fiscal Year 2009

1%
Money Laundering/Racketeering/Extortion

2%
Other (“Other” offenses include homicide, kidnapping, sex offenses, assault, arson, burglary, and auto theft.)

2%
Firearms

7%
Economic Crimes

20%
Drugs

68%
Immigration
It is quite obvious the majority of crimes that illegal immigrants commit are (1) simply being in the US illegally, followed by (2) drugs. Rape, murder, assault, etc. are way down on the list.

But again, a wall is an ineffective preventative measure and will not slow the tide of illegal immigration. Therefore, arguing that a wall will stop these crimes is just wrong.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 06, 2019, 12:31:04 PM
LC, no one gives a f*** what the crimes rates are for illegals because they shouldn't be here committing crimes period.

As far as everything else, all you guys do is bitch and moan. They separate criminals at the border, "oh its horrible". They want to put up a wall? "oh it won't work". They keep them in detention centers, "oh the atrocities". You guys oppose everything. Let's put up a wall, make it electric, and surround it with barbed wire. Have drones circle the areas and if necessary fire rubber bullets at trespassers. These bums want to keep encroaching, they can risk electrocution, getting mangled, or shot. Or you know, they can come over safe and sound, legally...
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 06, 2019, 12:34:35 PM
85.8% of prisoners held in Federal prisons are NOT aliens convicted of non-immigration offenses.


one in five BOP inmates is an alien.
about 29 percent of aliens in BOP custody have committed immigration offenses such as illegal reentry after removal.

https://cis.org/Huennekens/DOJ-26-Federal-Prisoners-Are-Aliens

Another highly misleading spin on the data.  If you look at the link for 1st quarter 2018, you will find that it actually states  that 29% of aliens  in BOP custody have committed immigration offenses such as illegal reentry or human trafficking.

That citation was taken from an article that was mainly misleading spin.  The article was introduced for discussion by cubsfan. 

I can't imagine why the article is including prisoners awaiting trial.  It did so not only when it included the US Marshal's prisoners, but it then repeated the trick with the data from the state of Texas.

The numbers must not be impressive without including them is my guess.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 06, 2019, 12:55:49 PM
https://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/crime/329589-the-truth-about-crime-illegal-immigrants-and-sanctuary-cities
Mark, read your GAO report. The relevant statistic is on page 23.
https://www.gao.gov/new.items/d11187.pdf

Quote
Figure 11: Primary Convictions Related to Criminal Alien Federal Offenders in
Fiscal Year 2009

1%
Money Laundering/Racketeering/Extortion

2%
Other (“Other” offenses include homicide, kidnapping, sex offenses, assault, arson, burglary, and auto theft.)

2%
Firearms

7%
Economic Crimes

20%
Drugs

68%
Immigration
It is quite obvious the majority of crimes that illegal immigrants commit are (1) simply being in the US illegally, followed by (2) drugs. Rape, murder, assault, etc. are way down on the list.

But again, a wall is an ineffective preventative measure and will not slow the tide of illegal immigration. Therefore, arguing that a wall will stop these crimes is just wrong.

 Here is a link to data from 2018 - it clearly contradicts your position.  https://cis.org/sites/default/files/2018-06/Alien_Incarceration_Report_2018_Q1.pdf
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 06, 2019, 01:02:30 PM
LC, no one gives a f*** what the crimes rates are for illegals because they shouldn't be here committing crimes period.

As far as everything else, all you guys do is bitch and moan. They separate criminals at the border, "oh its horrible". They want to put up a wall? "oh it won't work". They keep them in detention centers, "oh the atrocities". You guys oppose everything. Let's put up a wall, make it electric, and surround it with barbed wire. Have drones circle the areas and if necessary fire rubber bullets at trespassers. These bums want to keep encroaching, they can risk electrocution, getting mangled, or shot. Or you know, they can come over safe and sound, legally...

What a truly emotion driven post.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 06, 2019, 01:05:58 PM
85.8% of prisoners held in Federal prisons are NOT aliens convicted of non-immigration offenses.


one in five BOP inmates is an alien.
about 29 percent of aliens in BOP custody have committed immigration offenses such as illegal reentry after removal.

https://cis.org/Huennekens/DOJ-26-Federal-Prisoners-Are-Aliens

Another highly misleading spin on the data.  If you look at the link for 1st quarter 2018, you will find that it actually states  that 29% of aliens  in BOP custody have committed immigration offenses such as illegal reentry or human trafficking.

That citation was taken from an article that was mainly misleading spin.  The article was introduced for discussion by cubsfan. 

I can't imagine why the article is including prisoners awaiting trial.  It did so not only when it included the US Marshal's prisoners, but it then repeated the trick with the data from the state of Texas.

The numbers must not be impressive without including them is my guess.

I see.  It's cubsfan's fault
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 06, 2019, 01:08:00 PM
Although you guys pound the table claiming walls can't possibly work,  the overwhelming number of Border Agents polled disagree.

https://twt-media.washtimes.com/media/misc/2018/04/02/border.pdf
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 06, 2019, 01:11:06 PM
LC, no one gives a f*** what the crimes rates are for illegals because they shouldn't be here committing crimes period.

As far as everything else, all you guys do is bitch and moan. They separate criminals at the border, "oh its horrible". They want to put up a wall? "oh it won't work". They keep them in detention centers, "oh the atrocities". You guys oppose everything. Let's put up a wall, make it electric, and surround it with barbed wire. Have drones circle the areas and if necessary fire rubber bullets at trespassers. These bums want to keep encroaching, they can risk electrocution, getting mangled, or shot. Or you know, they can come over safe and sound, legally...

What a truly emotion driven post.

LOL yes, emotionally driven? Says the ones continuously defending criminal trespassers and vagrants... Why are we even talking about crime rates for people who shouldn't be here? Whats next? Lets sympathize with burglars and home invaders because most are non violent and the product of economic hardship?
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 06, 2019, 01:15:47 PM
Although you guys pound the table claiming walls can't possibly work,  the overwhelming number of Border Agents polled disagree.

https://twt-media.washtimes.com/media/misc/2018/04/02/border.pdf
And bankers support deregulation. And oil drillers support auctioning of parklands.

And the CBP’s “Capability Gap Analysis Process,” which surveys the needs of each Border Patrol station to see what additional tools they want in order to meet their mission of stopping people, drugs and other contraband from crossing illegally.

Of 902 capability gaps identified last year, just 37 referenced a need for fencing or a wall, the Democratic report said.

Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 06, 2019, 01:19:26 PM
Yes, a report put together by Democrat staffers.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 06, 2019, 01:37:05 PM
85.8% of prisoners held in Federal prisons are NOT aliens convicted of non-immigration offenses.


one in five BOP inmates is an alien.
about 29 percent of aliens in BOP custody have committed immigration offenses such as illegal reentry after removal.

https://cis.org/Huennekens/DOJ-26-Federal-Prisoners-Are-Aliens

Another highly misleading spin on the data.  If you look at the link for 1st quarter 2018, you will find that it actually states  that 29% of aliens  in BOP custody have committed immigration offenses such as illegal reentry or human trafficking.

That citation was taken from an article that was mainly misleading spin.  The article was introduced for discussion by cubsfan. 

I can't imagine why the article is including prisoners awaiting trial.  It did so not only when it included the US Marshal's prisoners, but it then repeated the trick with the data from the state of Texas.

The numbers must not be impressive without including them is my guess.

I see.  It's cubsfan's fault

Fault?  How so?
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 06, 2019, 01:38:46 PM
I believe you said "amen cubsfan".  Is that why you seem upset?
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 06, 2019, 01:54:44 PM
I didn't realize your many talents included the ability to ascertain the emotional state of someone you don't know, a thousand miles away while over the internet. You should put together a circus act.
I'm sure you would be in big demand. 
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 06, 2019, 02:18:52 PM

 Here is a link to data from 2018 - it clearly contradicts your position.  https://cis.org/sites/default/files/2018-06/Alien_Incarceration_Report_2018_Q1.pdf

No it doesn't. You can clearly see on pg. 7 of the report you link the same statistic:

" Primary Offenses Committed by Known or Suspected Aliens in BOP Custody, FY
2018 Q1"

What looks to be approximately 75% of the cases are "Immigration" and "Drugs"
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 06, 2019, 02:20:46 PM
Yes, a report put together by Democrat staffers.
As opposed to a survey conducted by Border Patrol. Both sides are filled with poor incentives.

A wall needs to make logical sense. 

Not because Border Patrol says they want it.
Not because Democrats say they don't want it.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 06, 2019, 02:40:10 PM

 Here is a link to data from 2018 - it clearly contradicts your position.  https://cis.org/sites/default/files/2018-06/Alien_Incarceration_Report_2018_Q1.pdf

No it doesn't. You can clearly see on pg. 7 of the report you link the same statistic:

" Primary Offenses Committed by Known or Suspected Aliens in BOP Custody, FY
2018 Q1"

What looks to be approximately 75% of the cases are "Immigration" and "Drugs"

No you are wrong. Circus guy cited  numbers a decade old claiming that about 68% of the illegals  we're in Federal custody for simply being in the country illegally.  The data from 2018 have 29% of those in custody as a result of being arrested for reentry or human trafficking.  (The category "Immigration" includes both.)
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: MarkS on January 06, 2019, 02:55:47 PM
I'm done. You can stick a fork in me.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 06, 2019, 03:06:22 PM

 Here is a link to data from 2018 - it clearly contradicts your position.  https://cis.org/sites/default/files/2018-06/Alien_Incarceration_Report_2018_Q1.pdf

No it doesn't. You can clearly see on pg. 7 of the report you link the same statistic:

" Primary Offenses Committed by Known or Suspected Aliens in BOP Custody, FY
2018 Q1"

What looks to be approximately 75% of the cases are "Immigration" and "Drugs"

No you are wrong. Circus guy cited  numbers a decade old claiming that about 68% of the illegals  we're in Federal custody for simply being in the country illegally.  The data from 2018 have 29% of those in custody as a result of being arrested for reentry or human trafficking.  (The category "Immigration" includes both.)

What the hell is your point?

Here are two facts:

In 2009 a Government Accountability Office report found that 68% of aliens in federal custody were there due to immigration related offenses. The second most common offense (20%) was drug-related. In other words, about 88% due to drug or immigration related offenses.

In 2018 a Dept of Homeland Security/Dept of Justice report found that 29% of aliens in federal custody were there due to immigration offenses, 46% were due to drug-related offenses, and 3% (Other) were there due to drug or immigration related offenses. In other words 78% due to drug or immigration related offenses.

These are facts. Or are they fake news?
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: cubsfan on January 06, 2019, 03:30:37 PM
It's incredible to me that folks don't think a wall is needed OR will not work:

The Berlin Wall was a huge success - in that it surely worked.

The wall is southern Israel has been a huge success in keeping trouble out of Israel.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/feb/13/ron-johnson/border-fence-israel-cut-illegal-immigration-99-per/


https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Israels-border-walls-A-case-study-For-Trumps-mantra-574517

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/background-and-overview-of-israel-s-security-fence

The real difference between the USA and Israel - one country wants to keep it's citizens safe from outside
threats, and the other doesn't.

No doubt that walls work.



Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 06, 2019, 03:38:20 PM
That totally makes sense if you ignore a couple of key facts:

The berlin wall was under 100M. And was located in relatively urban/suburban areas.

Cubsfan, Is Trump building a wall around a city?

The israeli wall is under 500M. And Israel is pretty much at war with its neighbors and is actively bombing them. And it's a fence, not a wall.

Cubsfan, Is the US at war with Mexico?

The US-mexico wall is already 700+M covered by fencing and wall. And that 700M doesn't even work. And it ignores the other 1000M of border.

Cubsfan, is Trump planning to fully (2000M) wall the US-mexico border?


Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 06, 2019, 03:56:20 PM
LOL LC, none of your bolded questions have anything to do with the effectiveness, and everything to do with your opinion that it isn't needed....

But I mean, in theory, if the wall worked for nations at war, then it should certainly work for ones that aren't, no?

The truth is that the Libs want these scoundrels in because it translates to more votes. They don't give a shit about our safety. Reminds me of when some major liberal, Michael Moore maybe, was protesting Trumps refugee policy. He even made headlines because in response to a conservative critic saying, "would you want them in your personal house?", he offered to let them stay there. What wasn't reported is that it was his third house that was 1500 sq ft and an AirBNB rental he never once occupied.... Thats liberals for you. Dictate to others from your gated communities, glass penthouses, and Silicon Valley compounds...
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: cubsfan on January 06, 2019, 04:08:29 PM
All the citizens want is a secure border - certainly can be part wall, part security fence - whatever.

It works like a charm in Israel - it worked in Berlin - it'll work here.

The only reason the Democratic Party does not want border security is to flip Red States to Blue States.
It wasn't that long ago that Obama, Boxer, Schumer, Clinton - all wanted border security until
they saw that California was flipped to permanently Democratic by uncontrolled illegal immigration.

At that point, the light went on in the Democratic Party to wreck the country with uncontrolled
illegal immigration - all for political power.

California - 50% pay no income tax, 23% on welfare, schools last in the nation, worst infrastructure in the US,
prisons over represented by criminal illegal immigrants.

Welcome to paradise - courtesy of uncontrolled illegal immigration - but, hey, it's controlled by Democrats!

You ought to go live in Central California for a few months and see what a disaster the place is.
You would be amazed - and you certainly wouldn't want to live there.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 06, 2019, 04:12:21 PM
LOL LC, none of your bolded questions have anything to do with the effectiveness, and everything to do with your opinion that it isn't needed....
You want to compare US-mexico wall to berlin/israel you have to account for the differences.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 06, 2019, 04:31:51 PM
LOL LC, none of your bolded questions have anything to do with the effectiveness, and everything to do with your opinion that it isn't needed....
You want to compare US-mexico wall to berlin/israel you have to account for the differences.

So under much more extreme circumstances(war) it worked, but here(just keeping bums out) it won't. Ok......
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Parsad on January 06, 2019, 04:40:29 PM
LC, no one gives a f*** what the crimes rates are for illegals because they shouldn't be here committing crimes period.

As far as everything else, all you guys do is bitch and moan. They separate criminals at the border, "oh its horrible". They want to put up a wall? "oh it won't work". They keep them in detention centers, "oh the atrocities". You guys oppose everything. Let's put up a wall, make it electric, and surround it with barbed wire. Have drones circle the areas and if necessary fire rubber bullets at trespassers. These bums want to keep encroaching, they can risk electrocution, getting mangled, or shot. Or you know, they can come over safe and sound, legally...

You keep bitching about liberals and no one cares about illegals and what we are saying...what about Fox News?

https://news.yahoo.com/fox-news-apos-chris-wallace-184340199.html

It's not liberals...it's common sense that you don't like.  Democrats passed 8 new funding agreements to support border security, but Trump won't pass those because he wants the wall.  He's going to keep the government shutdown going even when there is no need to...because he wants everything in one bill.  Cheers!
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 06, 2019, 05:15:19 PM
LOL LC, none of your bolded questions have anything to do with the effectiveness, and everything to do with your opinion that it isn't needed....
You want to compare US-mexico wall to berlin/israel you have to account for the differences.

So under much more extreme circumstances(war) it worked, but here(just keeping bums out) it won't. Ok......

Do a little bit of research first before spouting nonsense (OK well I had to at least try)

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/feb/13/ron-johnson/border-fence-israel-cut-illegal-immigration-99-per/

Quote
The number of illegal border crossings decreased drastically "in an extremely short time" after the implementation of an "Anti-Infiltration Law" in mid 2012, Jakubowicz said. 

Under the law, individuals caught illegally entering Israel could be detained for up to three years, Jakubowicz said. The number of people illegally crossing Israel’s southern border decreased after the law came into effect, even though the fence was not fully completed, he said.

Quote
On a small scale and with many guards, walls can effectively stop movement, Jones said.

But Israel and the United States’ southern borders are significantly different.

The Israel-Egypt border fence is about 150 miles.

The U.S.-Mexico border is nearly 2,000 miles.

Quote
"Most of the Israeli fence goes through open, arid terrain. Easy to access, easy to build, easy to monitor with agents," Jones said.

Maybe you should be pushing for a moat.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 06, 2019, 05:51:12 PM
I didn't realize your many talents included the ability to ascertain the emotional state of someone you don't know, a thousand miles away while over the internet. You should put together a circus act.
I'm sure you would be in big demand.

I beg your pardon?  What is the meaning of all of this?


Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 06, 2019, 06:01:12 PM
California prisons have around 30,000 criminal aliens - a staggering number.

What is your source?






Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 06, 2019, 06:37:12 PM
I'd like to know if the wall supports are in support of a hunting down and kicking out all illegal immigrants living in the US, and what they plan on doing that.

By some accounts there are about 22 million illegal immigrants in the US
https://thehill.com/latino/407848-yale-mit-study-22-million-not-11-million-undocumented-immigrants-in-us

By latest counts, there are about 300,000 illegal immigrants crossing into the US annually, and that is falling.

Therefore it would take over 70 years of the wall just to prevent the existing illegal immigration in the US.

Why aren't you guys pushing for taking this money and enforcing citizenship tests? Door to door INS raids? Mandatory citizenship checks. Citizenship cards which must be held at all times. Or are you going to wait 70 years to handle that?
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 06, 2019, 06:48:49 PM
I'd like to know if the wall supports are in support of a hunting down and kicking out all illegal immigrants living in the US, and what they plan on doing that.

By some accounts there are about 22 million illegal immigrants in the US
https://thehill.com/latino/407848-yale-mit-study-22-million-not-11-million-undocumented-immigrants-in-us

By latest counts, there are about 300,000 illegal immigrants crossing into the US annually, and that is falling.

Therefore it would take over 70 years of the wall just to prevent the existing illegal immigration in the US.

Why aren't you guys pushing for taking this money and enforcing citizenship tests? Door to door INS raids? Mandatory citizenship checks. Citizenship cards which must be held at all times. Or are you going to wait 70 years to handle that?

Good lord, where does it stop with you guys?

We ratchet up ICE and you libs protest, cry racism, and want to abolish it.

We target them, and you guys want sanctuary cities.

As has already been said, liberals just want to obstruct ANY solution because this "let them all in/stay" movement is a methodical pay for play type of scheme. All the cesspools that harbor these criminals are irreversibly turning darker and darker blue. Which is the end goal here and why liberals oppose any real effort stop this.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 06, 2019, 06:55:50 PM
Oh I'm just saying if you were rationally interested in removing illegal immigrants from the US, you have a handful of things you should be pushing for, instead of wall.

The fact that you aren't, is illuminating.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Parsad on January 06, 2019, 08:39:07 PM
I'd like to know if the wall supports are in support of a hunting down and kicking out all illegal immigrants living in the US, and what they plan on doing that.

By some accounts there are about 22 million illegal immigrants in the US
https://thehill.com/latino/407848-yale-mit-study-22-million-not-11-million-undocumented-immigrants-in-us

By latest counts, there are about 300,000 illegal immigrants crossing into the US annually, and that is falling.

Therefore it would take over 70 years of the wall just to prevent the existing illegal immigration in the US.

Why aren't you guys pushing for taking this money and enforcing citizenship tests? Door to door INS raids? Mandatory citizenship checks. Citizenship cards which must be held at all times. Or are you going to wait 70 years to handle that?

Good lord, where does it stop with you guys?

We ratchet up ICE and you libs protest, cry racism, and want to abolish it.

We target them, and you guys want sanctuary cities.

As has already been said, liberals just want to obstruct ANY solution because this "let them all in/stay" movement is a methodical pay for play type of scheme. All the cesspools that harbor these criminals are irreversibly turning darker and darker blue. Which is the end goal here and why liberals oppose any real effort stop this.

Why are you blaming liberals only?  This all started under Clinton and Dubya...the numbers have decreased progressively since and are actually at record lows...see graph on page 12.  The data is provided by Homeland Security, so you can knock off your partisan crap.  Why don't you actually look at the numbers instead of saying that "no one cares", "liberals want to destroy the U.S.", etc.

https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/BSMR_OIS_2016.pdf

The problem isn't building a wall and keeping the illegals out...it's proven that is happening.  What you have is somewhere between 10-20M illegals in the country already, and how are you going to humanely deal with that.  A friggin' $5B wall is money spent in the wrong place...unless you want to keep them all inside the U.S.!  Cheers!
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 06, 2019, 10:48:33 PM
they saw that California was flipped to permanently Democratic by uncontrolled illegal immigration.

The agricultural regions of California voted Republican

At that point, the light went on in the Democratic Party to wreck the country with uncontrolled
illegal immigration - all for political power.

The murder rate is at its lowest since 1950.

You ought to go live in Central California for a few months and see what a disaster the place is.
You would be amazed - and you certainly wouldn't want to live there.

Chicago's homicide rate is 35% higher than Stockton's.  Go Cubs!

https://www.thetrace.org/2018/04/highest-murder-rates-us-cities-list/
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: meiroy on January 07, 2019, 01:04:28 AM
Oh I'm just saying if you were rationally interested in removing illegal immigrants from the US, you have a handful of things you should be pushing for, instead of wall.

The fact that you aren't, is illuminating.

If those people crossing via Mexico were white they wouldn't care that much about it.  That's what it comes down to.



Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 07, 2019, 12:33:22 PM
I saw a comment recently that made me think - one of the traits people claimed Trump had was the ability to make a deal.

I am curious how those who voted for/support him view this in light of the government shut down, and Trump's inability to convince (1) Mexico (2) A Republican Congress, to pay for one of his most memorable promises - the "wall".

He is not a good deal maker.  He uses threats and litigation in his business, and he does the same as President...if I don't get what I want, I will shut the government down.  Cheers!

He is financially harming the Federal workers (shooting the hostages) until he gets his way.

Although he would describe it as "flesh wounds"!  Cheers!


Fox News is tired of the B.S.

Chris Wallace is asking the White House Press Secretary why Trump is holding federal workers and the services they provide "hostage".

It's at the 5:50 mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rht-bk3tbBM
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 07, 2019, 12:40:50 PM
Chris Wallace was always a decent one. Sarah Sanders is so desperate in that video trying to come up with a way to skirt the issue.

Just admit it Sarah, your administration is holding the country hostage for a wall that nobody wants.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Cardboard on January 07, 2019, 12:56:28 PM
"Just admit it Sarah, your administration is holding the country hostage for a wall that nobody wants."

A wall that YOU don't want.

Cardboard
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 07, 2019, 01:01:24 PM
Dont mind them. They're still butt hurt Hillary lost.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: rkbabang on January 07, 2019, 01:04:13 PM
https://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/crime/329589-the-truth-about-crime-illegal-immigrants-and-sanctuary-cities
Mark, read your GAO report. The relevant statistic is on page 23.
https://www.gao.gov/new.items/d11187.pdf

Quote
Figure 11: Primary Convictions Related to Criminal Alien Federal Offenders in
Fiscal Year 2009

1%
Money Laundering/Racketeering/Extortion

2%
Other (“Other” offenses include homicide, kidnapping, sex offenses, assault, arson, burglary, and auto theft.)

2%
Firearms

7%
Economic Crimes

20%
Drugs

68%
Immigration
It is quite obvious the majority of crimes that illegal immigrants commit are (1) simply being in the US illegally, followed by (2) drugs. Rape, murder, assault, etc. are way down on the list.

But again, a wall is an ineffective preventative measure and will not slow the tide of illegal immigration. Therefore, arguing that a wall will stop these crimes is just wrong.


"money laundering" shouldn't be a crime (so that first category is less than 1%)

"2% other" are most likely real crimes with real victims

"2% firearms"  There should be no gun laws so I don't consider those real crimes.

"7% economic crimes"  may be real crimes with real victims

"20% drugs"  There should be no drug laws so I don't consider those real crimes.

"68% Immigration" There should be no immigration laws so those aren't real crimes.

So of those convictions only 9-10% actually committed real crimes with real victims.

Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Cardboard on January 07, 2019, 02:15:25 PM
"Reality is that very few on this thread are proposing any real solution. Liberals hypocritically want fully open border while the Libertarians will shoot any who trespasses their properties."

What I wrote on January 4 still seems to fully apply.

Cardboard

Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 07, 2019, 03:25:12 PM
whats your problem with my proposed solution?
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 07, 2019, 03:32:11 PM
"Just admit it Sarah, your administration is holding the country hostage for a wall that nobody wants."

A wall that YOU don't want.

Cardboard

OK - A wall the majority of Americans (plus 100% of illegal immigrants  ;D ;D ;D) don't want:

A Quinnipiac poll of 1,147 voters reached on landlines or cell phones from Dec. 12-17 found that 54 percent of respondents opposed the wall and 43 percent supported it. A Harvard CAPS/Harris online survey of 1,407 registered voters conducted Dec. 24-26  found that 56 percent of those surveyed did not support a wall, while 44 percent did.

Just 35 percent of those surveyed supported including money for the wall in a federal spending bill, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll of 2,440 adults conducted online Dec. 21-25.

More than two-thirds of Americans don’t think the wall should be a priority, according to a poll of 1,075 adults by NPR, PBS News Hour and Marist. That poll was conducted Nov. 28-Dec. 4 using live telephone interviews to reach both landlines and cell phones.



Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 07, 2019, 03:36:21 PM
So of those convictions only 9-10% actually committed real crimes with real victims.

Truly magical when I agree with your sentiment :) :)

FYI, by your methodology (Which I may not totally agree with but for humor's sake)

Economic crime consists of:
Larceny, fraud, embezzlement,
forgery/counterfeiting, tax offenses, and antitrust
(i.e., price fixing)

So your % may be even lower (5-7%)
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 07, 2019, 03:43:50 PM
Lindsey Graham doesn't want a wall.

He wants funding for a metaphor.

It's an endowment for the arts.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 07, 2019, 09:24:40 PM
Technically, according to NBC, there were 41 people on the United States’ Terrorist Screening Database who were apprehended at the southern border between October 2017 and March 2018. Of that number, 35 were actually U.S. citizens or lawful residents. Incidentally, NBC reported, there were nearly twice as many people from the database stopped at the northern border—41 of whom weren’t citizens or lawful residents.

https://splinternews.com/sarah-huckabee-sanders-latest-absurd-lie-has-fallen-apa-1831557157


Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: rkbabang on January 08, 2019, 06:28:05 AM
So of those convictions only 9-10% actually committed real crimes with real victims.

Truly magical when I agree with your sentiment :) :)

FYI, by your methodology (Which I may not totally agree with but for humor's sake)

Economic crime consists of:
Larceny, fraud, embezzlement,
forgery/counterfeiting, tax offenses, and antitrust
(i.e., price fixing)

So your % may be even lower (5-7%)

:)

I was trying to give the convictions the benefit of the doubt, but you are correct.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: rkbabang on January 08, 2019, 07:24:35 AM
"Reality is that very few on this thread are proposing any real solution. Liberals hypocritically want fully open border while the Libertarians will shoot any who trespasses their properties."

What I wrote on January 4 still seems to fully apply.

Cardboard

I'm not sure what " Libertarians will shoot any who trespasses their properties" even means?  You wouldn't shoot someone who broke into your home?   

I consider myself to be mostly libertarian and I want them to come to the US, bring their families, and contribute to our economy (both above the table and under it, both the white market and the black market) by getting jobs or bringing in the drugs people want, etc...
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Cardboard on January 08, 2019, 08:58:33 AM
I think it is pretty simple to understand.

Die hard Libertarians feel insulated from society with their guns and fortified property. So they don't mind a lawless society, drugs, open borders as long as they have that refuge and ways to defend themselves. Kind of similar to Hollywood stars although, they push a different agenda.

However, it is not everyone who owns weaponry, is capable or even willing to defend themselves with a weapon: older people, kids. It is also not everyone who owns a property and can aim and shoot at those approaching from the distance: think appartment complex. 

Most have also not been exposed to these issues personally: a son who is addicted or live far away from the border (you are in New Hampshire?).

While I agree with a fair bit of it, this self-sufficient way of thinking falls short very quickly. You need a balance in everything and obviously some proper laws.

Furthermore, once Liberals finally get their wish of turning more red States into purple States and southern immigration is certainly part of their plan as Latinos become fervent Democrat supporters (our Party or the ones who defend us), then what do you think next target will be?

Answer: banning guns. 

Cardboard


Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 08, 2019, 09:17:11 AM
"Reality is that very few on this thread are proposing any real solution. Liberals hypocritically want fully open border while the Libertarians will shoot any who trespasses their properties."

What I wrote on January 4 still seems to fully apply.

Cardboard

The problem is the tribalism.  You (and many others) are dismissing the points of others by applying labels to the person. 

Today you pointed out that I have some opinions held by Republicans but not others. 

I am not a tribal person.  I am not going over the cliff if the buffalo are running that way.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 08, 2019, 10:39:10 AM
Cardboard,
The issues appear to be related.  The war on drugs has increased gun violence, and that has led to calls for gun legislation.  The war on drugs has led to increased interaction between police and minorities, and that has led to social conflict (Black Lives Matter).


Most have also not been exposed to these issues personally: a son who is addicted or live far away from the border (you are in New Hampshire?).

The war on drugs isn't solving that problem.  You have a massive drug problem and a massive gun violence problem when drugs are illegal.

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2017/10/17/federal-prisons-don-t-even-try-to-rehabilitate-the-undocumented

Portugal does not have a war on drugs.  Why not give it a try here?


Answer: banning guns. 

I believe the libertarians feel that their guns have been under threat mainly because of the war on drugs.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Cardboard on January 08, 2019, 10:51:14 AM
"The problem is the tribalism.  You (and many others) are dismissing the points of others by applying labels to the person."

Problem is who is right and who is wrong? Problem is who puts their heads in the sand and who choses to do something to fix it?

A wall or fence or whatever you want to call it, electronic surveillance combined with patrol and laws indicating that anyone who trespasses can never return to the U.S. is the solution.

Then a few great big doors where honest people can register and come in.

Drug is a debate for another time. Let's address one issue at a time. And no, no war on drugs as you call it, does not solve illegal immigration.

Cardboard
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 08, 2019, 11:25:37 AM
Cardboard you still haven't addressed my suggestion yet you, like Greg, incorrectly complain that no alternatives are presented.

You also make ridiculous claims like, "A wall or fence or whatever you want to call it, electronic surveillance combined with patrol and laws indicating that anyone who trespasses can never return to the U.S. is the solution."

We're talking about illegal immigration and you are suggesting laws saying they cant come here! Do you hear yourself?
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 08, 2019, 11:32:29 AM
Drug policy is a part of this debate.

The situation in Latin America would be different if Pfizer was manufacturing cheap heroin and cheap cocaine sourced from US agriculture.

Trump is calling them murderers — that has to be based on the Latin American homicide numbers.

US consumers are funding the cartels, which in turn drive the homocide statistics.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: rkbabang on January 08, 2019, 11:37:54 AM
Cardboard,
The issues appear to be related.  The war on drugs has increased gun violence, and that has led to calls for gun legislation.  The war on drugs has led to increased interaction between police and minorities, and that has led to social conflict (Black Lives Matter).


Most have also not been exposed to these issues personally: a son who is addicted or live far away from the border (you are in New Hampshire?).

The war on drugs isn't solving that problem.  You have a massive drug problem and a massive gun violence problem when drugs are illegal.

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2017/10/17/federal-prisons-don-t-even-try-to-rehabilitate-the-undocumented

Portugal does not have a war on drugs.  Why not give it a try here?


Answer: banning guns. 

I believe the libertarians feel that their guns have been under threat mainly because of the war on drugs.

Exactly.  Far from wanting violent lawlessness, we want an end to the street violence and corresponding militarization of the police by ending the root cause of it.  Which is the war on drugs.  Legalizing alcohol didn't plunge the country into lawlessness it reduced the violence caused by its prohibition. The first federal gun laws were a direct result of the demagoguery and fear mongering about "gangsters with tommy guns".   Why were their gangsters with tommy guns?  Not because of alcohol, but because of the laws against alcohol.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: rkbabang on January 08, 2019, 11:43:14 AM
And BTW, saying I am far away from it all is not true.  There are more per capita drug deaths in New Hampshire than any of the southern border states.

EDIT:  This is 2016 data I'm pretty sure I read that NH went up to #2 in 2017
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/drug_poisoning_mortality/drug_poisoning.htm
Top 3:

Drug Overdose Mortality by State: 2016

Age-Adjusted Death Rates¹
United States 19.8

West Virginia 52.0   
Ohio   39.1
New Hampshire   39.0   
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 08, 2019, 12:03:47 PM
And BTW, saying I am far away from it all is not true.  There are more per capita drug deaths in New Hampshire than any of the southern border states.

EDIT:  This is 2016 data I'm pretty sure I read that NH went up to #2 in 2017
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/drug_poisoning_mortality/drug_poisoning.htm
Top 3:

Drug Overdose Mortality by State: 2016

Age-Adjusted Death Rates¹
United States 19.8

West Virginia 52.0   
Ohio   39.1
New Hampshire   39.0

And he isn’t the father of a child killed by street violence, either.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 08, 2019, 12:58:20 PM
Cardboard you still haven't addressed my suggestion yet you, like Greg, incorrectly complain that no alternatives are presented.

You also make ridiculous claims like, "A wall or fence or whatever you want to call it, electronic surveillance combined with patrol and laws indicating that anyone who trespasses can never return to the U.S. is the solution."

We're talking about illegal immigration and you are suggesting laws saying they cant come here! Do you hear yourself?

LOL The same proposal you have admitted in others posts to being half assed and not serious.... But we're supposed to entertain you...
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 08, 2019, 01:04:54 PM
Cardboard you still haven't addressed my suggestion yet you, like Greg, incorrectly complain that no alternatives are presented.

You also make ridiculous claims like, "A wall or fence or whatever you want to call it, electronic surveillance combined with patrol and laws indicating that anyone who trespasses can never return to the U.S. is the solution."

We're talking about illegal immigration and you are suggesting laws saying they cant come here! Do you hear yourself?

LOL The same proposal you have admitted in others posts to being half assed and not serious.... But we're supposed to entertain you...

I think you are already entertaining him.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 08, 2019, 01:42:58 PM
And BTW, saying I am far away from it all is not true.  There are more per capita drug deaths in New Hampshire than any of the southern border states.

EDIT:  This is 2016 data I'm pretty sure I read that NH went up to #2 in 2017
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/drug_poisoning_mortality/drug_poisoning.htm
Top 3:

Drug Overdose Mortality by State: 2016

Age-Adjusted Death Rates¹
United States 19.8

West Virginia 52.0   
Ohio   39.1
New Hampshire   39.0

What were the rates before the war on drugs?
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 08, 2019, 02:28:41 PM
Cardboard you still haven't addressed my suggestion yet you, like Greg, incorrectly complain that no alternatives are presented.

You also make ridiculous claims like, "A wall or fence or whatever you want to call it, electronic surveillance combined with patrol and laws indicating that anyone who trespasses can never return to the U.S. is the solution."

We're talking about illegal immigration and you are suggesting laws saying they cant come here! Do you hear yourself?

LOL The same proposal you have admitted in others posts to being half assed and not serious.... But we're supposed to entertain you...

What didn't you like about it Greg?

BTW I also suggested increased drone and radar activity (which illegal migrants admit were their biggest fear). But that fell on deaf ears as well.

I thought you and Cardboard were open to discussion! Or are you building a wall there too?
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 08, 2019, 03:38:09 PM
Decades ago, the United States and Portugal both struggled with illicit drugs and took decisive action — in diametrically opposite directions. The U.S. cracked down vigorously, spending billions of dollars incarcerating drug users. In contrast, Portugal undertook a monumental experiment: It decriminalized the use of all drugs in 2001, even heroin and cocaine, and unleashed a major public health campaign to tackle addiction. Ever since in Portugal, drug addiction has been treated more as a medical challenge than as a criminal justice issue.

The United States drug policy failed spectacularly, with about as many Americans dying last year of overdoses — around 64,000 — as were killed in the Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq Wars combined.

In contrast, Portugal may be winning the war on drugs — by ending it. Today, the Health Ministry estimates that only about 25,000 Portuguese use heroin, down from 100,000 when the policy began.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2017/09/22/opinion/sunday/portugal-drug-decriminalization.amp.html
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Cardboard on January 09, 2019, 05:07:18 AM
Europe has a lot of immigrants coming in from Africa and the Middle East and it has nothing to do with drugs.

What is common are traffickers extorting funds from immigrants and having them travel under terrible and dangerous conditions often leading to multiple deaths.

Cardboard
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 09, 2019, 08:46:46 AM
Cardboard,
The Federal prison statistics that Marc wanted addressed were largely drug offenses.  If you don’t want drugs to be a part of this conversation then you should have told him.

Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: meiroy on January 09, 2019, 09:49:16 PM

If Trump is not allowed to build his wall he must be allowed to play with something else.  Those of you who handled multiple times 2-year-olds know what I mean.

My previous suggestion for shruberry wall obviously fell short.  So, I was thinking about letting him build a giant Pyramid, bigger than those in Egypt. Build the world's greatest pyramid next to the border and equip it with laser mounted sharks to keep away those non-people-like-us-who-are-real-people.  Of course, this won't work because the sharks will die if placed on a pyramid.   That's as far as I got. Any other suggestions?

Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: rkbabang on January 10, 2019, 03:55:35 AM
https://www.facebook.com/7976226799/posts/10157195749121800/
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: meiroy on January 10, 2019, 05:37:11 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-01-10/pelosi-should-recognize-president-mcconnell?srnd=opinion&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&cmpid%3D=socialflow-twitter-view&utm_content=view&utm_source=twitter

Interesting.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 10, 2019, 09:51:59 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-01-10/pelosi-should-recognize-president-mcconnell?srnd=opinion&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&cmpid%3D=socialflow-twitter-view&utm_content=view&utm_source=twitter

Interesting.

Too right:

And, of course, the reason Trump still doesn’t have a wall is that his fellow Republicans refused for two years to fund one.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: rkbabang on January 10, 2019, 10:48:55 AM
For anyone who still doesn't believe we are living in a simulation, explain this video from 1958 about Trump and his wall.
https://twitter.com/_alexhirsch/status/1083140191362048000?s=21
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: Gregmal on January 10, 2019, 03:57:08 PM
Jimmy Acosta just showed that the walls do work.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/cnns-jim-acosta-takes-heat-210926300.html

Jimmy wouldn't want to go near all the vagrants. Might get dirt on his girly Ray Ban lenses...
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: investor-man on January 10, 2019, 06:44:51 PM

If Trump is not allowed to build his wall he must be allowed to play with something else.  Those of you who handled multiple times 2-year-olds know what I mean.

My previous suggestion for shruberry wall obviously fell short.  So, I was thinking about letting him build a giant Pyramid, bigger than those in Egypt. Build the world's greatest pyramid next to the border and equip it with laser mounted sharks to keep away those non-people-like-us-who-are-real-people.  Of course, this won't work because the sharks will die if placed on a pyramid.   That's as far as I got. Any other suggestions?

Best post of the year so far!
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 10, 2019, 10:28:16 PM
Jimmy Acosta just showed that the walls do work.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/cnns-jim-acosta-takes-heat-210926300.html

Jimmy wouldn't want to go near all the vagrants. Might get dirt on his girly Ray Ban lenses...
Wait really? What a dumb argument.

I think Trump should just dig a huge crevasse like the end scene in Moria in Lord of the Rings. Maybe if we're lucky he'll trip and fall in.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: meiroy on January 11, 2019, 01:31:48 AM
Jimmy Acosta just showed that the walls do work.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/cnns-jim-acosta-takes-heat-210926300.html

Jimmy wouldn't want to go near all the vagrants. Might get dirt on his girly Ray Ban lenses...
Wait really? What a dumb argument.

I think Trump should just dig a huge crevasse like the end scene in Moria in Lord of the Rings. Maybe if we're lucky he'll trip and fall in.

Trump is his own preciousssss, he gazes at the mirror each night, at precious, and precious whispers sweet words of love back at him and nothing else matters.

One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, One ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.


The sad thing about all of this is that Tolkien wrote it so many years ago, in what was supposed to be another world, but here we are and it's 2019.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 11, 2019, 07:30:47 AM
A clip from a 1950s TV show is going viral because of some eerie parallels to President Donald Trump and his plan to build a wall.

The episode of the series “Trackdown” titled “The End of the World” featured a conman by the name of Trump ― Walter Trump ― who was trying to sell a wall to a town to protect it from meteorites.

“I am the only one, just me,” Trump said on the show. “I can build a wall around your homes that nothing can penetrate.”

The episode aired on May 8, 1958, with Lawrence Dobkin as Walter Trump, Snopes reported.

Much like President Trump claimed “I alone” can fix the nation’s problems in 2016, the Trump in the TV show said “I alone” had a message about the end of the world ― and a way to prevent it.

His answer? Build a wall.

The Trump on the show also had a penchant for threatening lawsuits.

“Be careful, son,” he warned in one scene. “I can sue you.”

And to round out the parallels, the fictional Trump was called a liar by the show’s protagonist, Texas Ranger Hoby Gilman, who was played by Robert Culp.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trackdown-walter-trump_us_5c383e90e4b0c469d76cbfd3
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: rkbabang on January 11, 2019, 08:06:24 AM
A clip from a 1950s TV show is going viral because of some eerie parallels to President Donald Trump and his plan to build a wall.

The episode of the series “Trackdown” titled “The End of the World” featured a conman by the name of Trump ― Walter Trump ― who was trying to sell a wall to a town to protect it from meteorites.

“I am the only one, just me,” Trump said on the show. “I can build a wall around your homes that nothing can penetrate.”

The episode aired on May 8, 1958, with Lawrence Dobkin as Walter Trump, Snopes reported.

Much like President Trump claimed “I alone” can fix the nation’s problems in 2016, the Trump in the TV show said “I alone” had a message about the end of the world ― and a way to prevent it.

His answer? Build a wall.

The Trump on the show also had a penchant for threatening lawsuits.

“Be careful, son,” he warned in one scene. “I can sue you.”

And to round out the parallels, the fictional Trump was called a liar by the show’s protagonist, Texas Ranger Hoby Gilman, who was played by Robert Culp.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trackdown-walter-trump_us_5c383e90e4b0c469d76cbfd3

http://www.cornerofberkshireandfairfax.ca/forum/politics/art-of-the-deal/msg357684/#msg357684
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 11, 2019, 08:39:26 AM
For anyone who still doesn't believe we are living in a simulation, explain this video from 1958 about Trump and his wall.
https://twitter.com/_alexhirsch/status/1083140191362048000?s=21

This is incredible and also I am glad I am not using psychedelic drugs because I'd be having some serious "time is a flat circle" concerns  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: rkbabang on January 11, 2019, 10:12:07 AM
For anyone who still doesn't believe we are living in a simulation, explain this video from 1958 about Trump and his wall.
https://twitter.com/_alexhirsch/status/1083140191362048000?s=21

This is incredible and also I am glad I am not using psychedelic drugs because I'd be having some serious "time is a flat circle" concerns  ;D ;D

I know what you mean.  I still can't wrap my head around this one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irrbuaiUMVw).

This time line is definitely an interesting one.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: meiroy on January 11, 2019, 07:58:23 PM
Border Patrol Makes Its Case For An Expanded 'Border Barrier'

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/11/684037990/border-patrol-makes-its-case-for-an-expanded-border-barrier
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: ERICOPOLY on January 14, 2019, 07:11:43 PM
The Republicans could have approved money for the wall at any point during Trump's first two years.  I wonder if they did not do so because they do not like the optics of it.  They don't want to be labeled the anti-Mexican White Nationalist Party by the Democrats.

They appear to have waited to push for Trump's wall until losing the House to the Democrats in order to spin the resulting wall as bi-partisan.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: rkbabang on January 15, 2019, 06:21:06 AM
The Republicans could have approved money for the wall at any point during Trump's first two years.  I wonder if they did not do so because they do not like the optics of it.  They don't want to be labeled the anti-Mexican White Nationalist Party by the Democrats.

They appear to have waited to push for Trump's wall until losing the House to the Democrats in order to spin the resulting wall as bi-partisan.

+1.   Both parties do this type of thing all the time and no one ever calls them on it.  They wait until they can blame the other side.  Notice how Republicans never reduce government when they control everything and Democrats never reduce military spending or bring troops home.   Sometimes they do something you would think the other side would do (Clinton reforming welfare, Bush creating a new major entitlement program, Obama expanding the war on Terror and the war on drugs, Trump pulling troops out).   But they never do what they say they are going to do. They are all frauds.
Title: Re: Art of the Deal
Post by: LC on January 19, 2019, 09:33:48 PM
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/will-hurd-calls-trumps-border-crisis-a-myth_us_5c428e06e4b027c3bbc1d6ab

Rep. Will Hurd (R-Texas) is lashing out at President Donald Trump’s border “crisis” as a “myth” and calling his border wall strategy ancient. Hurd has a pretty good idea of what’s what. His district includes 820 miles of the U.S.-Mexico border.



Hurd believes border surveillance using radar and cameras, and a careful examination of what’s being done and what works is a far more rational approach to take.