Corner of Berkshire & Fairfax Message Board

General Category => Politics => Topic started by: shalab on August 06, 2018, 09:39:14 PM

Title: Canada fights Saudi
Post by: shalab on August 06, 2018, 09:39:14 PM

https://www.vox.com/world/2018/8/6/17656864/saudi-arabia-canada-ambassador-persona-non-grata-samar-badawi
Title: Re: Canada fights Saudi
Post by: Spekulatius on August 07, 2018, 10:24:48 AM
Feels right and luckily, Canada doesnít need to go to war for oil.
Title: Re: Canada fights Saudi
Post by: no_free_lunch on August 07, 2018, 05:43:38 PM
I dont get what we r doing there. If we start calling people out on human rights then who will be left as allies.

That being said, have to give credit to libs for sticking to their guns.
Title: Re: Canada fights Saudi
Post by: Cigarbutt on August 07, 2018, 06:15:16 PM
Collateral damage (or how a win-win can become a lose-lose):
https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/saudi-students-given-four-weeks-to-leave-canada-even-if-studies-not-completed/wcm/0c1b95c7-b729-43af-8ca1-33c40b4d1396

Memories (late 80's and early 90's) of stimulating discussions that occurred with fellow Saudi students come to mind.
Title: Re: Canada fights Saudi
Post by: rb on August 07, 2018, 07:53:18 PM
I dont get what we r doing there. If we start calling people out on human rights then who will be left as allies.

That being said, have to give credit to libs for sticking to their guns.
First of all Saudi Arabia is not an ally of Canada.

Also, when exactly did human rights become a "liberal thing"? As I recall conservatives used to be pretty big on those things. Has that changed? Countries, including Canada, that respect human rights have a long history of calling out countries that don't. This is not a new thing. Furthermore there is a Canadian connection, the wife of the guy in prison is a Canadian citizen. I think that the girl is an American citizen but I'm not sure.

Finally, the moment accounts linked to the government of Saudi Arabia (of all governments) starts posting pictures of airliners flying at skylines, they can officially go fuck themselves in my book.
Title: Re: Canada fights Saudi
Post by: no_free_lunch on August 07, 2018, 09:37:29 PM
RB,

No they were allies, or more ally than enemy.  They send their students here, they invest in Canada, buy our armored vehicles, Canadians go and work in KSA.  Economically it is a positive relationship.

I believe the wife is only a Canadian citizen due to her fleeing. 

I am all for calling countries out but then there is such a long list we have to be careful.  The US has gitmo, capital punishment, drone strikes, etc, is some high minded liberal going to call them out?  What is going to happen if we actually get into a scrap over one of these insults?  If we are going to start acting all crazy let's at least beef our mil up and learn to get along with Trump.

I agree with your last statement.  I don't know exactly how we got here but they can fuck right off.   Did this account really just claim Saudi responsibility for the 9/11 attacks?  The attacks that have pushed the US into war in Afghanistan and Iraq for 17 years?
Title: Re: Canada fights Saudi
Post by: rb on August 07, 2018, 10:52:36 PM
RB,

No they were allies, or more ally than enemy.  They send their students here, they invest in Canada, buy our armored vehicles, Canadians go and work in KSA.  Economically it is a positive relationship.

I believe the wife is only a Canadian citizen due to her fleeing. 

I am all for calling countries out but then there is such a long list we have to be careful.  The US has gitmo, capital punishment, drone strikes, etc, is some high minded liberal going to call them out?  What is going to happen if we actually get into a scrap over one of these insults?  If we are going to start acting all crazy let's at least beef our mil up and learn to get along with Trump.

I agree with your last statement.  I don't know exactly how we got here but they can fuck right off.   Did this account really just claim Saudi responsibility for the 9/11 attacks?  The attacks that have pushed the US into war in Afghanistan and Iraq for 17 years?
No free lunch,

Alliances don't work like that. An alliance if a formal thing. Treaties, papers, all the jazz. One is either an ally or not an ally. The fact is that Saudi Arabia is not an ally. Some countries are allies, some countries are neither. They're just some country with which we just deal. To us Saudi Arabia is just that. Just some country.

I do agree with you that we have a normal economic relationship with Saudi Arabia. I would generally say that normal economic relationships are positive things. But that's all they are. Yes they bought some armored vehicles from us. So what? does that mean that we have to plop down and open our mouths? We buy a whole bunch of oil off of them too. In fact we buy more oil from them then they buy armored vehicles and other stuff from us. Why aren't they down with their mouths open? Yes I know I'm graphic but I'm trying to make a point. It seems these days if you're making a buck that's all that matters and all principles are expendable towards the virtue of that dollar.

As for calling countries out on human rights, we and others have called out bigger countries (China, Russia, etc...) on bigger stuff. China never threw a fit and said we won't sell stuff to Canada anymore. Between allies I'm sure there are discussions, albeit in more private forums, about issues when they come up. However our allies overwhelmingly have way more respect for human rights than KSA so those discussion are likely very few and far between.

I agree with you that the guy's wife is a citizen as a result of feeling here. But she is a citizen. As such she is entitled to the full rights and protections under the Canadian government on equal terms as any other citizen. There is no such thing as "kind of a citizen". While I understand the nuance in this case, I strongly disagree with the premise.

Basically, we called out a legitimate fact, they've had a complete over reaction. The idea that we should act like a vassal to KSA in exchange for a minor trading relationship is frankly laughable.
Title: Re: Canada fights Saudi
Post by: Cardboard on August 08, 2018, 03:24:57 AM
Regarding trade I hope that this could be an opportunity for somebody to finally educate our Eastern populace that they pay big bucks for their gasoline due to oil that comes from over there while we give away our own oil: 15 to 48% cheaper depending on grade.

If common folks knew the truth, you would see a big shift in sentiment.

Energy East or a variance should be top of the agenda considering the economic disadvantage, this dispute and NAFTA.

Cardboard
Title: Re: Canada fights Saudi
Post by: Spekulatius on August 08, 2018, 04:01:14 AM
Looks like the new Saudi Arabian regime has a twitchy trigger finger, lets see if they donít shoot themselves in the foot. I have to laud Canada here, they do the right thing.
Title: Re: Canada fights Saudi
Post by: EliG on August 08, 2018, 05:13:18 AM
Also, when exactly did human rights become a "liberal thing"? As I recall conservatives used to be pretty big on those things. Has that changed? Countries, including Canada, that respect human rights have a long history of calling out countries that don't. This is not a new thing.

Conservatives are proposing that we build Energy East and get rid of Saudi tankers sailing up the St. Lawrence river. Saudis may not care (their oil will go somewhere else) but at least it's a tangible response.

What are Liberals proposing, aside from tweeting at Saudis?

Replace Saudi oil with Canadian oil if you really care about human rights. Until then... it's just empty talk.
Title: Re: Canada fights Saudi
Post by: SharperDingaan on August 08, 2018, 05:37:01 AM
We would suggest that MBS is just pissed because Canada wouldn't hand him over.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/united-nations-stops-deportation-to-saudi-arabia-1.4777227

"Omar came to Canada in the spring by way of Roxham Road, which is at the New York border, with his wife and two sons. The family filed asylum claims, but Omar's claim was rejected outright because he had withdrawn a previous claim. Omar told CBC he had to withdraw his first asylum claim because his wife was detained in Saudi Arabia and he needed his passport back to return to his home country."

Essentially a US refugee that became a Canadian problem.
And Canada gets shat on because we wouldn't allow the Saudis to eliminate him.
Too bad.

Canada buys more from the KSA than the KSA buys from Canada, oil is widely available from a number of other sources, and this is entirely consistent with what Canada does. The only protesters are the regimes (US included) that cannot do whatever they want.

What's the problem?

SD

Title: Re: Canada fights Saudi
Post by: Cardboard on August 08, 2018, 07:16:36 AM
They are now selling their investments.

We should declare war. This is after all the true, #1, state sponsor of terrorism.

Cardboard
Title: Re: Canada fights Saudi
Post by: MarkS on August 08, 2018, 10:37:10 AM
Does anyone have any thoughts about which Canadian companies the Saudis nights be selling?  Selling unrelated to fundamentals might create a buying opportunity in the near future.  https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/08/saudi-arabia-is-selling-off-its-canadian-assets-as-row-intensifies-re.html
Title: Re: Canada fights Saudi
Post by: MarkS on August 08, 2018, 10:46:37 AM
It's possible that Bunge might be effected.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/investor-g3-global-grain-group-to-take-over-wheat-board-1.3033665
Title: Re: Canada fights Saudi
Post by: jeffmori7 on August 08, 2018, 11:38:54 AM
Yup, we don't need the Saudi oil: https://www.nationalobserver.com/2018/08/07/news/saudi-arabian-crude-oil-imports-canada-easy-replace-says-energy-economist
Title: Re: Canada fights Saudi
Post by: rb on August 08, 2018, 12:01:33 PM
There really isn't a significant economic relationship between Canada and KSA and KSA is not a significant investor in Canada. So I don't think that their selling will create any purchase opportunity.

This is probably why they're doing this. They can scream and make a circus without it costing them much of anything.
Title: Re: Canada fights Saudi
Post by: MarkS on August 08, 2018, 12:16:43 PM
Thanks RB
I was looking for an investment by their pension funds in maybe a Canadian Reit as a local reit wouldn't be effected by the dispute.  But so far - nothing. 
Title: Re: Canada fights Saudi
Post by: SharperDingaan on August 08, 2018, 01:34:31 PM
Exclude the LAV sales; and its just students, medical, and wheat/barley left.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/saudi-arabia-canada-economic-impact-1.4777407

Wheat/Barley will just be sold through middle-men instead.
Students and medical will impact public institutions, not private ones.
And LAV's aren't going to be excluded as its the KSA that wants them - Canada would rather not sell them.

The 'internal security' argument that KSA is making, over a single dissident (& women winning the right to drive, & not have to have a constant male guardian) really suggests that MBS isn't as secure as many have been led to think. MBS made a lot of enemies in 'the purge', the Aramco privatization (& attached graft) is long overdue, and Iran would appear to clearly have the ability to choke their oil flow. Additionally if the US is not successful in toppling Khamene, it's highly likely that attempts at regime change in KSA/Bahrain is going to be next.

SD
   

Title: Re: Canada fights Saudi
Post by: Cardboard on August 08, 2018, 02:07:43 PM
"Judith Dwarkin, chief economist with RS Energy Group in Calgary, says eastern Canadian refineries import about 75,000 to 80,000 barrels per day of Saudi Arabian crude.

She says that's less than 10 per cent of total imports and amounts to a "drop in the bucket" compared with the United States, which accounts for two-thirds of imports and could easily cover Saudi's share thanks to growing domestic production.

It is also dwarfed by the 3.5 million barrels per day of domestic oil that Canada exports mainly to the U.S."

Important to educate our folks. I know it is a lost cause with some from Montreal as we have on our website but, for others.

So Canada imports around 1 million barrels of oil per day. Pay $96 CAD/barrel.

Then in turns sells 3.5 million barrels per day at roughly $67 CAD/barrel. That is a mix by the way of light and heavy which we could process.

So we lose $29 CAD/barrel or $29 million per day because of anti-pipelines idiots in this country!

Cardboard


Title: Re: Canada fights Saudi
Post by: rb on August 08, 2018, 02:10:33 PM
And what does that have to do with this topic?
Title: Re: Canada fights Saudi
Post by: Cardboard on August 08, 2018, 02:51:46 PM
"And what does that have to do with this topic?"

Stop giving our money to the enemy!!!!

Cardboard
Title: Re: Canada fights Saudi
Post by: EliG on August 08, 2018, 04:13:12 PM
Cardboard, brother, we are in total agreement. I'm buying a lottery ticket. Today is the day.

Seriously, bring back Energy East. Get rid of Saudi oil. It's a no-brainer.
Title: Re: Canada fights Saudi
Post by: Cardboard on August 08, 2018, 06:43:12 PM
"Seriously, bring back Energy East. Get rid of Saudi oil. It's a no-brainer."

Also American oil !!! That is $10 billion/year that we are throwing away. Okay less with transport cost but, it is in the billions.

Also related to this topic, I am pissed at our Minister of Foreign Affairs who is incapable to strike a NAFTA deal with our so called friends from the South or two democratic countries. And then wants to lecture Saudi Arabia on how they treat woman.

Truly what kind of good will come out of that?

Even so called Global Moral Authority or EU countries are silent on it... And they certainly don't want to offend Iran either offering alternatives to companies facing U.S. sanctions. What a bunch of hypocrites!

Is she qualified for the job? "Canadian writer, journalist, and politician."

Sounds like more someone fit to work at some MSM editorial bureau.

Cardboard
Title: Re: Canada fights Saudi
Post by: jeffmori7 on August 08, 2018, 06:45:09 PM
Hey Cardboard, I hope you will be happy to hear that in Quebec, we don't use any Saudi petrol: https://lactualite.com/lactualite-affaires/2018/07/13/le-nouveau-visage-du-petrole-au-quebec/
Title: Re: Canada fights Saudi
Post by: no_free_lunch on August 08, 2018, 08:09:45 PM
Also related to this topic, I am pissed at our Minister of Foreign Affairs who is incapable to strike a NAFTA deal with our so called friends from the South or two democratic countries. And then wants to lecture Saudi Arabia on how they treat woman.

Maybe the 2 events are linked.
Title: Re: Canada fights Saudi
Post by: no_free_lunch on August 18, 2018, 06:47:35 AM
There was media coverage last week of a saudi strike on a school bus in yemen. Dozens of children were killed. Since the liberals have said they will ALWAYS stand up for human rights I would like to see some twitter diplomacy on the issue.  Piss or get off the pot.