Author Topic: Canada spend among the lowest on defense in NATO  (Read 1966 times)

shalab

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Liberty

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Re: Canada spend among the lowest on defense in NATO
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2018, 05:13:03 AM »
Aren't GDP spend numbers pretty misleading because the US number include healthcare for military while other countries have health spending accounted elsewhere?
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Spekulatius

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Re: Canada spend among the lowest on defense in NATO
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2018, 05:39:07 AM »
Aren't GDP spend numbers pretty misleading because the US number include healthcare for military while other countries have health spending accounted elsewhere?

I think spending on Veterans is about $180B annually. I suspect most of it for health care. Justceyeballing the numbers , this would bring US defense spending to 3% of GNP. There is also about $92B in R&D spent in the DoD budget. Some of it is pretty basic research done at Universities that would probably go in a different bucket. It’s still more spending than other NATO partners, but it’s more like 2x the spending rather than 3-4x.
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no_free_lunch

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Re: Canada spend among the lowest on defense in NATO
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2018, 07:06:51 AM »
You can also look at it by troop and equipment strengths.  That gets rid of these issues with the pure defense $ amount and how efficiently it is allocated.  Obviously this is still deeply flawed but if does indicate Canada significantly under spends.  There are also whole classes of expensive weapons, stealth fighters/bombers and aircraft carriers where we don't have anything at all. 

http://armedforces.eu/compare/country_USA_vs_Canada

Just a few samples:


                                US           Canada
Total aircraft:    12 100    405

Helicopters:             5 000    165

Tanks:                     8 848    146

Aircraftcarriers:    20             0

Total artillery:    3 269    161

Liberty

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Re: Canada spend among the lowest on defense in NATO
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2018, 07:16:21 AM »
Aren't GDP spend numbers pretty misleading because the US number include healthcare for military while other countries have health spending accounted elsewhere?

I think spending on Veterans is about $180B annually. I suspect most of it for health care. Justceyeballing the numbers , this would bring US defense spending to 3% of GNP. There is also about $92B in R&D spent in the DoD budget. Some of it is pretty basic research done at Universities that would probably go in a different bucket. It’s still more spending than other NATO partners, but it’s more like 2x the spending rather than 3-4x.

I don't mean just for veterans, but for active military (non-deployed). Don't the cost of their healthcare gets accounted differently (at least in part) than for a soldier in say, Canada, who has a regular family doctor paid for through taxes rather than through some employer-provided benefits?
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Spekulatius

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Re: Canada spend among the lowest on defense in NATO
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2018, 07:29:35 AM »
Aren't GDP spend numbers pretty misleading because the US number include healthcare for military while other countries have health spending accounted elsewhere?

I think spending on Veterans is about $180B annually. I suspect most of it for health care. Justceyeballing the numbers , this would bring US defense spending to 3% of GNP. There is also about $92B in R&D spent in the DoD budget. Some of it is pretty basic research done at Universities that would probably go in a different bucket. It’s still more spending than other NATO partners, but it’s more like 2x the spending rather than 3-4x.

I don't mean just for veterans, but for active military (non-deployed). Don't the cost of their healthcare gets accounted differently (at least in part) than for a soldier in say, Canada, who has a regular family doctor paid for through taxes rather than through some employer-provided benefits?

I don’t know. Most countries have their own health system for active duty personal , but I believe the bulking the medical spent on veterans at least in Germany is just through the public health care system. One would need to look at these numbers in much detail.
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DTEJD1997

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Re: Canada spend among the lowest on defense in NATO
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2018, 08:45:12 AM »
Hey all:

I know this is just one report and it is not about Canada...but I was shocked to learn that Germany is having severe problem with it's military equipment.

So much so, that some of their troops have had to resort to using broomsticks instead of real guns:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/11420627/German-army-used-broomsticks-instead-of-guns-during-training.html

I had previously heard stories that all of Germany's submarines are non-functional, no replacement parts.

There are also rumors that Germany has almost no heavy lift planes for the military...and most of their planes are grounded.  Once again, not enough spare/replacement parts.

If these reports are true, it is clear that some NATO states are not holding up their end of the bargain.

no_free_lunch

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Re: Canada spend among the lowest on defense in NATO
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2018, 08:58:43 AM »
Yes, Germany has issues too.  While we bicker about health care spend the equipment numbers are just brutal and even then may overstate the case.

Quote
The German magazine Spiegel recently revealed that most of the Luftwaffe’s—the modern German air force’s—128 Eurofighter Typhoons are not flightworthy.

In fact, only about ten of the aircraft are ready for operations, Spiegel said. This raises doubts about Germany’s ability to meet its NATO defense commitments.
...
But Germany, at least, has been playing games with the Typhoon’s operational readiness, according to Spiegel. “The Luftwaffe counts all Eurofighter jets that are allowed to fly as available. But this includes many who do not have a functioning self-protection system. These may be used with dummies on the wings for training flights or maneuvers. Real missions, such as airspace surveillance on the eastern edge of NATO, are excluded with these jets.”

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/germanys-air-force-dying-slow-death-25157

Gregmal

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Re: Canada spend among the lowest on defense in NATO
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2018, 09:15:45 AM »
Hey all:

I know this is just one report and it is not about Canada...but I was shocked to learn that Germany is having severe problem with it's military equipment.

So much so, that some of their troops have had to resort to using broomsticks instead of real guns:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/11420627/German-army-used-broomsticks-instead-of-guns-during-training.html

I had previously heard stories that all of Germany's submarines are non-functional, no replacement parts.

There are also rumors that Germany has almost no heavy lift planes for the military...and most of their planes are grounded.  Once again, not enough spare/replacement parts.

If these reports are true, it is clear that some NATO states are not holding up their end of the bargain.

Why spend? The U.S. will do it for them.

The United States, on both a domestic basis, and international one, has become the grand enabler for freeloaders everywhere. Both it's citizens, and other countries, you can rely on good ole Uncle Sam to do things for you, that you don't want to do yourself. That's why we have so many "allies". Notice the grumbling once it is even hinted people get cut off? Like petulant infants getting removed from the tit.

doc75

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Re: Canada spend among the lowest on defense in NATO
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2018, 09:53:26 AM »
Why spend? The U.S. will do it for them.

The United States, on both a domestic basis, and international one, has become the grand enabler for freeloaders everywhere. Both it's citizens, and other countries, you can rely on good ole Uncle Sam to do things for you, that you don't want to do yourself. That's why we have so many "allies". Notice the grumbling once it is even hinted people get cut off? Like petulant infants getting removed from the tit.

I think self-interest may have worked its way into US spending decisions over the years.  Hegemony comes at a high cost.

And petulant = "childishly sulky or bad-tempered".  Of all the people at that NATO meeting, who best deserves that adjective?