Author Topic: Canada spend among the lowest on defense in NATO  (Read 2200 times)

doc75

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Re: Canada spend among the lowest on defense in NATO
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2018, 10:05:20 AM »
Yes, Germany has issues too.  While we bicker about health care spend the equipment numbers are just brutal and even then may overstate the case.

I don't know anything about military, but every time I read about Canadian equipment purchases I get a kind of embarrassed feeling.   You know, four leaky used submarines from England..  one catches fire on its way to Canada, the others need all sorts of work, news reports like this:

"Navy technicians caused "catastrophic damage" to one of Canada's trouble-plagued submarines two years ago, says a Halifax newspaper report that cited military documents.
The technicians blew out the electrical system when they hooked up HMCS Victoria to a modern electrical generator, the Halifax Chronicle-Herald reported Saturday.
"Attempts to use a DC [direct current] feed caused catastrophic damage to certain onboard filters and power supply units," the Chronicle-Herald reported, quoting recently released military documents about the incident, which occurred in British Columbia. The navy is now spending about $200,000 to buy old electrical equipment that mirrors the original equipment found on the submarine."


But it must be difficult for smaller countries, given the absolutely staggering cost of military equipment these days.  If you have a relatively small budget, how do you best spend the money?

And on the other hand, I'm amazed it makes any sense at all (upon cost-benefit analysis) for the US to spend so much on things like new stealth battleships, or next gen aircraft carriers.  Aren't we at a point where a $2m torpedo has a very good chance of taking out a multi-billion dollar ship?

This is probably super ignorant, so any military watchers please feel free to school me.


no_free_lunch

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Re: Canada spend among the lowest on defense in NATO
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2018, 11:06:47 AM »
I don't know if anyone would argue that the US mil could be more efficient with their spending.  However wasteful spending in the US does not adds/subtract to an argument that NATO allies must pay their fair share.

You all like to talk and throw crap at the argument to try to distract the conversation but it's really simple.  The US is pulling more than their fair share militarily.  Trump is calling the western liberal bluff and saying if you don't believe the US military is effective and necessary then fine, just kick the US out of NATO.

augustabound

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Re: Canada spend among the lowest on defense in NATO
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2018, 11:17:40 AM »
The United States, on both a domestic basis, and international one, has become the grand enabler for freeloaders everywhere. Both it's citizens, and other countries, you can rely on good ole Uncle Sam to do things for you, that you don't want to do yourself. That's why we have so many "allies". Notice the grumbling once it is even hinted people get cut off? Like petulant infants getting removed from the tit.

Last I checked Canada didn't start any wars or stick its nose in other countries businesses with military action.  Who's bailing who out and which country is overspending on military?
"Serenity now, insanity later." - Lloyd Braun

doc75

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Re: Canada spend among the lowest on defense in NATO
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2018, 11:30:04 AM »
You all like to talk and throw crap at the argument to try to distract the conversation but it's really simple.  The US is pulling more than their fair share militarily.  Trump is calling the western liberal bluff and saying if you don't believe the US military is effective and necessary then fine, just kick the US out of NATO.

Yeah it's really annoying when a fair/good point gets lost in a bunch of distraction, misdirection, and bravado.   (See:  Trump, Donald J.)

Have any of the NATO allies said that they don't believe the US military is effective and necessary?   Honestly, that would be big news.

no_free_lunch

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Re: Canada spend among the lowest on defense in NATO
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2018, 01:35:55 PM »
Actions speak louder than words.  If you believe NATO needs a large US military then we would spend similar.  Otherwise Trump is right and we are taking advantage of them.

Cardboard

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Re: Canada spend among the lowest on defense in NATO
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2018, 07:20:13 PM »
+1 no_free_lunch

Love your logic and certainly in short supply since a while on this website with the pro-Liberal attitude.

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doc75

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Re: Canada spend among the lowest on defense in NATO
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2018, 08:31:23 PM »
+1 no_free_lunch

Love your logic and certainly in short supply since a while on this website with the pro-Liberal attitude.

Cardboard

I was at a conference of logicians fairly recently.  You would have despised the pervasive pro-liberal attitude!

rb

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Re: Canada spend among the lowest on defense in NATO
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2018, 09:05:03 PM »
+1 no_free_lunch

Love your logic and certainly in short supply since a while on this website with the pro-Liberal attitude.

Cardboard
I was at a conference of logicians fairly recently.  You would have despised the pervasive pro-liberal attitude!
Here's what I don't get about the taking advantage bit. Is the US planning to cut military expenditure? It's not. Donald Trump himself has stated many times that he wants the US spend more on military. So if the US doesn't save any money if Germany or Canada spend more how are Germany, Canada or other freeloaders or whatever?

Furthermore, if the US just wants to shower its military industrial complex in cash just cause it feels like it and the result is a military whose umbrella casts a shadow so big that it covers its allies is a high level of expenditure really required on their part? What is the purpose of such spend and why is it logical? The answer is that it's not logical. And it has nothing to do with liberals or anything like that. Btw, since you bring up ideology, as far as i know conservative ideology is against useless government spending.

Finally, Germany is a big issue in all that is going on right now. I'll spare everyone the suspense. Germany will never get to 2% GDP military spend. Anyone that understands Europe will understand that. It doesn't matter how many tantrums Donald Trump throws. It won't happen. At best they'll cook the books to make it seem like it's happening.

doc75

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Re: Canada spend among the lowest on defense in NATO
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2018, 09:48:46 PM »
Here's what I don't get about the taking advantage bit. Is the US planning to cut military expenditure? It's not. Donald Trump himself has stated many times that he wants the US spend more on military. So if the US doesn't save any money if Germany or Canada spend more how are Germany, Canada or other freeloaders or whatever?

It's unclear to me what he has in mind, but I assume his idea is either that the US would spend less directly on NATO (i.e. smaller percentage of the pie) as other countries spend more, or that wants any shortfalls to stop being borne by the US.  Just guessing.

In any case, I don't see why it's incongruous that he wants to generally increase US military spending but decrease NATO's reliance on US support.

This is part of the problem:  There are so many half-truths and fabrications that it's hard to know what he wants with any precision.  Tweeting about countries owing the US back-payments and being delinquent is great tough-guy talk for his base, but doesn't help convince anyone who's not already in his corner that he has a reasonable plan in mind. 

A similar thing happens with regard to trade.  Have they published anything that would help us understand more specifically what they have been asking of China?  It seems there's bipartisan consensus that China does not play fair, but everything I've read has been very vague.  Surely they have some specifics in mind.  I would have liked to have seen Trump use the G7 summit to rally allies toward a more aggressive collective stand on Chinese trade practices, with some specific, reasonable asks.   


 



rb

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Re: Canada spend among the lowest on defense in NATO
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2018, 11:06:14 PM »
Doc, for someone who professes ignorance on such topics you make some good points.

First, let me expand a bit on NATO. It was never meant really meant as a warfare organization. It was meant as an organization for peace. The idea behind it is that there is so much force concentrated in the alliance. Yes, the US was meant to be the main force. But if you actually fancy a tumble with Britain or France there's something seriously wrong with you. Add to that the fact that Article 5 doesn't mince any words and what you get is that you would have to be insane to attack any member of the Alliance. It's all about deterrence.

Now of course that the behavior of the Unites States seriously undermines that deterrence. Deterrence doesn't work reality TV style. Stay tuned for next weeks episode to see which members are still part of the Alliance.

But you actually hit the nail on the head when you speak about the half truths and vague statements. The current setup of the NATO is with the US being the main force, the other powers basically flanking it, and the smaller members providing support. In this situation you would make a certain set of investments. But if the US wasn't in the picture you'd invest into a whole different set of capabilities. So by being vague and disruptive and vague you paralyze the Alliance. Even if they want to spend they won't.

As for trade, forget about it. Fat chance your Allies will show up to the fight for you after you've sucker punched them all.