Author Topic: Clowns Playing Race Cards...Again  (Read 23967 times)

cobafdek

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Re: Clowns Playing Race Cards...Again
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2019, 12:38:21 AM »
NONE of the other examples of cameronfen's are racist.  NONE.

Let's pick probably the most cited piece of evidence of Trump being a racist:

Greg, Cummings who is African American, also represents a district that is 53% black.  Yet, get this, the 7th district has a higher median household income than the United States.  You don't see Trump calling Mick Mulvany's former district a "shithole" or "infested", despite South Carolina's 5th being in the 22nd percentile in terms of household income (versus 61st percentile for Cummings) (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/07/29/story-about-elijah-cummingss-district-that-trump-isnt-interested-telling/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.3bcc5ebc3b72).  What is his factual basis for calling the 7th district a shithole.  If it was just this one thing, fine, maybe that wasn't racist but based on some bad places in the district.  However, Trump has repeatedly called for people of color to go back to the ________ (read "shithole" or "disgusting" or "infested") places where they came from.  He did it with the squad (no matter their policies, that was un-American).  He did it with Mexicans, calling them rapists.  He repeated his favorite trope against African, Central Americans, and Carriabians when he said he wanted to strip protections for immigrants coming from "shithole countries" (While many countries are poor, Trump lacks nuance like always as Trinidad a Trabego has a higher GDP per capita than Greece and Russia; Costa Rica, Botswana, Gabon, and the Dominican Republic all have GDP per capita higher than the world average).  He delayed providing aid to Peurto Rico for the Hurricane Maria even though he rushed aid to the continental United states for similar or less devastating storms.  He called Neo-Nazi's "very fine people". He never apologized for slandering and campaigning to bring the death penalty to the central park five, who were later acquitted.  There are rumors he used the n-word on the apprentice.  He hectored Obama for not being born in the US even after a birth certificate was provided.  He quite literally banned Muslims from entering the United States and said so in a tweet (using the words "Muslim Ban").  I could go on.  So let me throw the question back at you:  What would Trump (or anyone) have to do for you to say they were a racist? 

Cameronfen is still brainwashed by the MSM about Charlottesville.  I like to think I de-programmed you about the Charlottesville media hoax (http://www.cornerofberkshireandfairfax.ca/forum/politics/the-party-of-peace-love-and-inclusiveness/msg374894/#msg374894)

But you went silent after that. 

Was your silence an instance of qui tacet consentire videtur?  OR, what had been more usual in your case, yet another indication of . . . wait for it . . . wait for it . . . (you guessed it!) . . . cognitive dissonance!?



« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 12:45:42 AM by cobafdek »


Parsad

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Re: Clowns Playing Race Cards...Again
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2019, 01:11:53 AM »
NONE of the other examples of cameronfen's are racist.  NONE.

Let's pick probably the most cited piece of evidence of Trump being a racist:

Greg, Cummings who is African American, also represents a district that is 53% black.  Yet, get this, the 7th district has a higher median household income than the United States.  You don't see Trump calling Mick Mulvany's former district a "shithole" or "infested", despite South Carolina's 5th being in the 22nd percentile in terms of household income (versus 61st percentile for Cummings) (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/07/29/story-about-elijah-cummingss-district-that-trump-isnt-interested-telling/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.3bcc5ebc3b72).  What is his factual basis for calling the 7th district a shithole.  If it was just this one thing, fine, maybe that wasn't racist but based on some bad places in the district.  However, Trump has repeatedly called for people of color to go back to the ________ (read "shithole" or "disgusting" or "infested") places where they came from.  He did it with the squad (no matter their policies, that was un-American).  He did it with Mexicans, calling them rapists.  He repeated his favorite trope against African, Central Americans, and Carriabians when he said he wanted to strip protections for immigrants coming from "shithole countries" (While many countries are poor, Trump lacks nuance like always as Trinidad a Trabego has a higher GDP per capita than Greece and Russia; Costa Rica, Botswana, Gabon, and the Dominican Republic all have GDP per capita higher than the world average).  He delayed providing aid to Peurto Rico for the Hurricane Maria even though he rushed aid to the continental United states for similar or less devastating storms.  He called Neo-Nazi's "very fine people". He never apologized for slandering and campaigning to bring the death penalty to the central park five, who were later acquitted.  There are rumors he used the n-word on the apprentice.  He hectored Obama for not being born in the US even after a birth certificate was provided.  He quite literally banned Muslims from entering the United States and said so in a tweet (using the words "Muslim Ban").  I could go on.  So let me throw the question back at you:  What would Trump (or anyone) have to do for you to say they were a racist? 

Cameronfen is still brainwashed by the MSM about Charlottesville.  I like to think I de-programmed you about the Charlottesville media hoax (http://www.cornerofberkshireandfairfax.ca/forum/politics/the-party-of-peace-love-and-inclusiveness/msg374894/#msg374894)

But you went silent after that. 

Was your silence an instance of qui tacet consentire videtur?  OR, what had been more usual in your case, yet another indication of . . . wait for it . . . wait for it . . . (you guessed it!) . . . cognitive dissonance!?

I go silent at times because at some point I always come to the realization that no matter what I or others say, no matter what argument we make with multiple sources, the argument will always be discounted.  Not with any fact, but simply the statement..."None of it is true about Trump", it's just a "hoax" or "fake news" or "the haters always say that".

Greg essentially stated in the other thread that there is almost nothing that could be said by Trump that he would interpret as racist, and at this point he may not even care.  What does that tell you?  It has nothing to do with cognitive dissonance or any other term you would like to use.  The fact is that just like some Trump haters will do anything to crucify Trump, some Trump supporters will do or say anything to protect him.  This is no longer a question of truth or falsehood, but people on both sides who are emotionally stunted enough now that they don't care and they just won't listen to others.

So if I go silent here, it isn't because you've made some astounding breakthrough or even your first articulate argument...it's just I sometimes get tired of banging my head against a brick wall.  Cheers!
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Cardboard

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Re: Clowns Playing Race Cards...Again
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2019, 02:59:03 AM »
"This sentiment truly scares me!  Not because it is what you think Greg, but because you aren't nearly the extreme side of Trump supporters.  That means there are a shitload of people out there who would support Trump no matter what he does.  He could burn books and they would support him!  He could move black people from one district to some other one, and they would support him.  He could make Don Jr. President if he wanted, and these same people would support him...I can go on and on, but I'm afraid to!  Cheers!"

I have never seen him do such thing. So why would I consider the man capable of doing such things? And even IF he wanted to and was supported by a small base, he would not be capable to. Then why would one worry at all about things that don't exist?

What I see him do is trying to create jobs for ALL Americans. Is he an ass and bully in that process? You bet but, so far it seems to be working for the U.S. and I see people at work and not rioting.

The opposition is what you should be worried about because their approach is to enrage people about not having everything.

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Gregmal

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Re: Clowns Playing Race Cards...Again
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2019, 04:48:56 AM »
You aren't wrong. I just think we've radically redefined the term racist as the pendulum has swung. So, a couple points.

1. Racism involves thinking one is superior to another based on race. I dont see how these comments indicate that. They're simply calling something as it is, even if there is some exaggeration or hyperbole.

2. Yes, Trump is going after these people of color. But these are also the people who are the most vocal in attacking him. My point is not to say "they're racist"(although I could just as easily make that case) or that Trump isn't racist(I dont know). But all he is doing is playing the game of trash talk against his loudest critics. He's attacked Warren, and Schiff, and Nadler as well, who are all white. But the bulk of the loud left are people of color. He has no benefit to calling Mulvaney's district a shithole because Mulvaney is on his side. If Mick was a Democrat, and loudly criticized Trump, I dont think it would be long before we heard comments like this.

3. The term shithole I fail to see as having a racial element to it. I have lived in/near NYC my whole life. I consider it a shithole because there are homeless people all over, drugs and trash everywhere, filthy air, crime, traffic and sirens constantly, and myriad other disgusting issues. This is true of Harlem and its true of Times Square. Its also true of Wall Street. Shithole is just a kind of lazy and unflattering way to describe an area that one doesn't hold in high regard. Now, if I said "Africa is a shithole because of the monkeys" or whatever Regan supposedly said in the Nixon tape, I'd agree with you. But this isn't that.

All in all, I dont disagree that there is a constant thread in much of the political banter. That Trump purposely phrases things in a way that are intended to bring out the people who scream racism; because he knows it also has benefits in making these people look crazy, baits them into games, and riles up his base. But I just chalk it up as a more clever version of the political theatre we've grown accustomed to.

1. We can agree to disagree.  That being said, I would encourage you to ask yourself, what would Trump have to do to make me call him a racist.  Because surely there is something he can do that definitely makes him a racist.  It's not like becoming a racist is impossible.  I guess for me, it's easy to say yeah that was mean, but it's not racist.  But when I actually sat down and drew a bright line in the sand I realized, oh shit Trump could actually do these things that I consider unacceptable.  That's how I came to believed he was a racist. 

2.  On one extent I somewhat sympathize with your points.  Clearly, Trump doesn't understand how to stab people in the back while maintaining the decorum of civility like most politicians.  Trump just says whatever nasty, politically incorrect thing that pops into his mind, which is why to some extent people like him.  That being said, he has never told any of his white opponents that the place where they grew up in or the people they represented are shitholes etc.  They were also never told that they don't belong in the United States.  The Mulvaney line was a little bit tongue in cheek because it is quite clear to me that Trump actively associates black, minorities as bad, poor, parasitic...and doesn't have those same associations with white people like Mulvaney's district which is poorer and arguably more "parasitic" in terms of government funding than Cummings district (although I don't like that word choice). 

3.  Sure.  Shithole is not inherently racist in my book either.  But considering the fact that he often uses it to describe where people of color are from and very rarely uses it to describe where white people are from, is a huge red flag. 

4.  In response to your "Trump purposely phrases things in a way that are intended to bring out the people who scream racism", maybe there is some truth to that in the sense that he just likes controversy, but I think the trope of Trump being the master political operative is way overplayed.  The guy at this point has lost most of his mental and intellectual faculties.  I don't see him capable manipulating the crowd so effectively on purpose.

To directly answer "what would Trump have to do question"... the honest answer is, I dont really know. I also dont really think I'd care if he was or wasn't anymore than if I conclusively found out Obama or Bush or Clinton(or in light of recent events, Reagan) was...


This sentiment truly scares me!  Not because it is what you think Greg, but because you aren't nearly the extreme side of Trump supporters.  That means there are a shitload of people out there who would support Trump no matter what he does.  He could burn books and they would support him!  He could move black people from one district to some other one, and they would support him.  He could make Don Jr. President if he wanted, and these same people would support him...I can go on and on, but I'm afraid to!  Cheers!

Its not really something to be scared of. There is so much bullshit out there that at the end of the day we only have so much to be truly passionate about. A person I dont/will never know or meet and whether they're "racist", whether in the true definition of the word or the newly minted MSM version, isn't one of those things to me. The truth is, none of us likely know Trump, or Obama or Bush, etc on a personal level enough to be able to throw some "label" on them. You kind of twisted a statement saying "what does it really change if we know for certain he is/isnt racist", and turned it into "you would let him get away with murder and be fine with it" which is completely different and not something I say or support.

Trump has yet to do anything anywhere near the extremes of burning books or appointing Don Jr. In fact, the one time he joked(he admitted he was) about not leaving office, the MSM did everything they could to perpetuate this myth as a real threat. Reagan is one of the greatest US Presidents ever, and was likely racist. So were many of our founding fathers. As long as people abide by the rules of the land I dont care anymore about this than I do in regards to who they sleep with or what kind of food they like. As much as the media tries to fabricate Trump stories and exaggerate abuses of power that really aren't much different than what those that came before him did, he isn't doing anything that wades into that sort of territory. He's just playing the game better than his opponents, which is why they hate it.

Gregmal

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Re: Clowns Playing Race Cards...Again
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2019, 05:13:50 AM »
This really isn't any different than when a business contact of mine mentioned back in like 2011, "isn't it obvious Obama has a great deal of contempt for white people?" and also pointed out how unorthodox his cabinet looked(both of those statements we could apply with slight modification to Trump) And my response then was the same as it is now... so what? What can I do about it if its true, and who even knows if it is. This is who is in office for the next few years, America will be fine.

Castanza

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Re: Clowns Playing Race Cards...Again
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2019, 06:34:21 AM »
This really isn't any different than when a business contact of mine mentioned back in like 2011, "isn't it obvious Obama has a great deal of contempt for white people?" and also pointed out how unorthodox his cabinet looked(both of those statements we could apply with slight modification to Trump) And my response then was the same as it is now... so what? What can I do about it if its true, and who even knows if it is. This is who is in office for the next few years, America will be fine.

To quote Bill Burr: “What going to happen to you?” Burr asked the audience. “If you liked Obama, did he call you at all in the last eight years? Did he ever put a sandwich on your table? You do that. You’re going to keep doing that. You’re going to be fine.”

MrB

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Re: Clowns Playing Race Cards...Again
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2019, 07:29:30 AM »
Reality is that racism is a very fluid concept despite the claims that it's simple prejudice. In my experience it's primarily a political tool. Which one of the following are racist and why?

1.
The Population Registration Act of 1950 required that each inhabitant of South Africa be classified and registered in accordance with his or her racial characteristics as part of the system of apartheid....you wanted a job you better be white.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_Registration_Act,_1950

2.
Black Economic Empowerment (BEE) is a racially selective programme launched by the South African government to redress the inequalities of Apartheid by giving black (African, Coloureds and Indians) South African citizens economic privileges that are not available to Whites....you want a job you better not be white
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Economic_Empowerment

Redress have no end...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47912100

Politics is the main driver of racism in America and Trump understands it better than most.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 07:31:02 AM by MrB »

cobafdek

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Re: Clowns Playing Race Cards...Again
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2019, 09:06:02 AM »
This thread that Gregmal started may contain a key for all of us getting more clear about "racism."

Greg essentially stated in the other thread that there is almost nothing that could be said by Trump that he would interpret as racist

Your earlier reply used a different word:

That means there are a shitload of people out there who would support Trump no matter what he does

But all the argument here is about words.  Trump's words.  And the MSM's favorite propaganda ploy is to perform a linguistic analysis on Trump's words in order to read his mind.

But we all know that claiming to be able to read someone else's mind is not real and is not credible. Reading minds is impossible.  And when we're focusing only on words, we're overintellectualizing life.

Instead, let's try Professor Paul Samuelson's Revealed Preference Theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revealed_preference):  "According to advocates of revealed preference theory 'It is not what you say, it is what you do that reveals what you want.'"

Cameronfen's laundry list is all about Trump's words.  But his final question is not:

What would Trump (or anyone) have to do for you to say they were a racist?

My answer to this question is that Trump would have to re-institute lynching, actively and financially support the repeal of the 13th, 14th, 15th Amendments and the Civil Rights Act, hire only whites at Trump Hotels, etc.

And a racist Trump, with a true heart of racism, would avoid doing anything like these:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/05/25/jack-johnson-pardon-bush-and-obama-wouldnt-grant-but-trump-did/641310002/

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/02/opinions/first-step-act-so-far-opinion-jones-jackson/index.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/video/trump-touts-black-unemployment-at-young-black-leadership-summit-1354007107666

We should stop conflating "saying" with "doing."  And anti-Trumpers should especially be careful about replying that "Saying is a form of doing."  Sometimes it is, but according to Revealed Preference Theory, not in Trump's case.






rukawa

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Re: Clowns Playing Race Cards...Again
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2019, 12:42:05 PM »
The real question is not whether Trump is racist. Its the extent to which his rhetoric supports white identitarians and the extent to which his policies are racist. He has one policy that is somewhat racist which is his immigration policy. I say somewhat because its definitely the case that a large element of the reason people don't support immigration is because they don't like brown people and it definitely has a huge negative impact on brown people but there are other reasons beyond race for people to be against immigration e.g. British hate white immigrants.

OTOH, I am more afraid of the racism in the democratic party. Democrats have been using race explicitly to win elections for decades. They don't have dog whisles..their whistles are loud, clear and direct. They explicitly view things through a racial lens on a wide variety of issues. During the current era almost all the racism in society is being driven by the Left. Even right wing racism is purely a reaction to Left-wing rhetoric.

I regard white identitarians as a reaction to identity politics on the Left. Their arguments are literally mirror images of Left wing arguments. Black pride...ok how about white pride. Black identity...ok how about white identity. Black power...ok how about white power. Black consciousness....they have renamed that being racially aware. The rise in white supremacy is mostly a reaction to BLM and to the Zimmerman case both of which demonstrated the racism of American media and the racism of the Left. If you listen to newly converted white identitarians...the driving force is never Trump. Its always a reaction to BLM, Zimmerman case, or political correctness.

Most Democrats and almost all the Democratic candidates are vastly more racist that Trump. White privilege is a racist concept. White supremacy is a racist idea. Black lives matter is a racist movement. Reparations is a racist policy. Observe the democratic debate and how much race came up. Observe how much democrats talk about race and how they attempt to appeal to racial groups. Democrats have and have always been a party of racists since the Civil War.

This is not to mention the racism we see from the Left on a daily basis in media and on television. For instance, Blackish, though very funny, is the most explicitly racist show on television, to a level that is really disgusting. The truly scary thing is that no one realizes how disgusting the ideas of that show are because we are so inundated with Left wing racism.

Trump is a very pale and shallow reflection of the deep, extremely dangerous and enduring racism that animates the Left.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 12:58:00 PM by rukawa »

LC

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Re: Clowns Playing Race Cards...Again
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2019, 03:48:39 PM »
The left / progressive element of the political spectrum is the element which voices the concerns of the minority and the under-represented. This is their role in culture and society. So naturally they will be the ones talking about brown and black races and issues relevant to those groups because that is their role.

Now it's a fair criticism to say the Democrat party uses their role as the progressive element to ulterior motives, and I think in some cases you probably have a fair point. But to criticize them simply for proverbially "playing the race card" is to not understand the role of the left in society.
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