Author Topic: Free college  (Read 4057 times)

LC

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Re: Free college
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2019, 04:40:15 PM »
“If college is free, then what about the problems of all the fools who saved & worked to pay for their education?  All those whose worked extra hours and scrimped and saved to pay on their student loans?
“What about the people who took out hundreds of thousands in student loans and can't get a job that pays ANYTHING near enough to pay back their loans?  They are jammed up for DECADES.”

This is a bad argument.

“If we cure cancer, what about all the people who had cancer and died!!!”
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DTEJD1997

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Re: Free college
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2019, 05:52:02 PM »
I definitely like the idea of losing funding if too many graduates go into default.

In some ways, I like not being able to discharge the debt in bankruptcy. There is a reason these laws were put into place. Supposedly, a lot of physicians and others would rack up a few hundred thousand $ in debt and then file. I think that if one files, there should be something more than a hit to credit. Perhaps giving up the degree and/or banned from practicing in the field where the degree was earned.

I used to be more liberal but I think a big reason liberalism has rallied over the past 40 years is due to debt. It's a lot easier to give money to others when governments aren't disciplined.

Why is student loan debt the only debt not to be discharged in bankruptcy?  I am sure there are TONS of students/professionals who would GLADLY trade in their diploma/license in order to have their debts discharged.

Then, if you have too much of that going on, the college issuing the worthless degrees can be shut down OR no longer be eligible for loans.

If there are consequences for students/graduates, then there needs to be some consequences for the educators.

DTEJD1997

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Re: Free college
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2019, 06:04:00 PM »
It really circles back to student maturity at the time the student takes on the debt.
There is no 'undo', or 'I was stupid' button, that forgives it - and there really shouldn't be. It's money secured against lifetime earnings, it allowed you to improve yourself, and if you make the wrong decisions you wear it. Society ain't mommy and daddy, and lenders ain't the forgiving type.

SD

SD:

Please do not offense to this...but I really don't think you have any idea what is going on, the magnitude of it, and the underlying problems.

One of the problems with student loan debt is that there are a lot of LIES/MISREPRESENTATIONS being made by the educators.  How is a student supposed to correctly evaluate their position and the worth of a degree/education, when one party has an asymmetric information imbalance?  When one side is lying about the figures? 

If your diploma/education is not worth it within 2 years of graduating, odds are it is NEVER going to be worth anything.  Educations do not typically improve with age.


Heck, leave that argument aside...what if a skool has 70%+ of it's graduates on IBR?  The skool & educators got their money up front.  The students have wrecked lives (20+ years IBR), and the government/taxpayer foots the bill in the end!  It is simply a transfer of capital from taxpayers to educators with students trapped in the middle.

Finally, if too many people get upset with situation, and see no reasonable way out, why not "flip the table"?  I think that is why SO many younger people in the USA are being attracted to socialism.  That is a VERY dangerous thing indeed.

The education industrial complex in the USA is rotten to the core and needs to be changed.  The sooner the better.


stahleyp

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Re: Free college
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2019, 06:06:00 PM »
“If college is free, then what about the problems of all the fools who saved & worked to pay for their education?  All those whose worked extra hours and scrimped and saved to pay on their student loans?
“What about the people who took out hundreds of thousands in student loans and can't get a job that pays ANYTHING near enough to pay back their loans?  They are jammed up for DECADES.”

This is a bad argument.

“If we cure cancer, what about all the people who had cancer and died!!!”

People made choices to go to certain colleges (or to party or to work). Those choices should have consequences. Virtually no one chooses to get cancer.

I agree, dtejd. Educators should also be held responsible.
Paul

Parsad

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Re: Free college
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2019, 06:38:23 PM »
I definitely like the idea of losing funding if too many graduates go into default.

In some ways, I like not being able to discharge the debt in bankruptcy. There is a reason these laws were put into place. Supposedly, a lot of physicians and others would rack up a few hundred thousand $ in debt and then file. I think that if one files, there should be something more than a hit to credit. Perhaps giving up the degree and/or banned from practicing in the field where the degree was earned.

I used to be more liberal but I think a big reason liberalism has rallied over the past 40 years is due to debt. It's a lot easier to give money to others when governments aren't disciplined.

Well maybe all of the debt shouldn't be discharged, but I think a significant portion of it should be.  Lenders, be it private or government, should be on the hook for the stupid or smart loans they make.  Maybe like a mortgage, students should be required to put up 20% of their own to cover fees...like anything, if you have capital at risk, you're probably going to be a better loan risk. 

Circumstances change...you generally borrow for your education when you are young and healthy.  What if you develop an illness 5-10 years down the road and you were making all of your student loan payments until then.  Student loan debt shouldn't be fundamentally different than any other type of debt.  Cheers!
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 06:40:06 PM by Parsad »
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Cardboard

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Re: Free college
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2019, 06:51:00 PM »
"This is a bad argument."

LOL!

Always a bad argument when it does not line up with your socialist mantra.

Why stop there? Free beer, homes and diapers too? Everything should be free! No one should owe anything, nor have to work!

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stahleyp

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Re: Free college
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2019, 07:10:49 PM »
I definitely like the idea of losing funding if too many graduates go into default.

In some ways, I like not being able to discharge the debt in bankruptcy. There is a reason these laws were put into place. Supposedly, a lot of physicians and others would rack up a few hundred thousand $ in debt and then file. I think that if one files, there should be something more than a hit to credit. Perhaps giving up the degree and/or banned from practicing in the field where the degree was earned.

I used to be more liberal but I think a big reason liberalism has rallied over the past 40 years is due to debt. It's a lot easier to give money to others when governments aren't disciplined.

Well maybe all of the debt shouldn't be discharged, but I think a significant portion of it should be.  Lenders, be it private or government, should be on the hook for the stupid or smart loans they make.  Maybe like a mortgage, students should be required to put up 20% of their own to cover fees...like anything, if you have capital at risk, you're probably going to be a better loan risk. 

Circumstances change...you generally borrow for your education when you are young and healthy.  What if you develop an illness 5-10 years down the road and you were making all of your student loan payments until then.  Student loan debt shouldn't be fundamentally different than any other type of debt.  Cheers!

You can get your debts discharged if you develop serious health issues.

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation/disability-discharge

Student loan debt is fundamentally different. You don't lose what you learned. You don't lose the degree. If you file bankruptcy you can lose your car, items, etc.


Paul

Spekulatius

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Re: Free college
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2019, 05:27:17 AM »
USA has perfected a crooked form of capitalism in Education & Healthcare that has resulted in economic slavery for substantial part of the population.

The conditions are very ripe for a good old fashioned revolution if things go unchecked. The "powers be" have kept a lid by smoke and mirrors (focusing attention on guns, abortion, immigrants, race etc). If not resolved, this will bring down the house of cards.

I don't know what the solution is:

For starters,

Nationalize the production & distribution of must need generics (insulin etc)
Break textbook & scientific journal monopoly

The revolution will come when the generation screwed by non dischargable student loans has enough Heft in the voting booth and can call the shots at elections. I think it’s inevitable that student loans will become dischargable. Might screw up the financial system a bit cost taxpayers dearly, but so be it. Every generation has the “right” to screw up the system at least once in their lifetime.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2019, 11:04:54 AM by Spekulatius »
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SharperDingaan

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Re: Free college
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2019, 07:33:05 AM »
It really circles back to student maturity at the time the student takes on the debt.
There is no 'undo', or 'I was stupid' button, that forgives it - and there really shouldn't be. It's money secured against lifetime earnings, it allowed you to improve yourself, and if you make the wrong decisions you wear it. Society ain't mommy and daddy, and lenders ain't the forgiving type.

SD

SD:

Please do not offense to this...but I really don't think you have any idea what is going on, the magnitude of it, and the underlying problems.

One of the problems with student loan debt is that there are a lot of LIES/MISREPRESENTATIONS being made by the educators.  How is a student supposed to correctly evaluate their position and the worth of a degree/education, when one party has an asymmetric information imbalance?  When one side is lying about the figures? 

If your diploma/education is not worth it within 2 years of graduating, odds are it is NEVER going to be worth anything.  Educations do not typically improve with age.


Heck, leave that argument aside...what if a skool has 70%+ of it's graduates on IBR?  The skool & educators got their money up front.  The students have wrecked lives (20+ years IBR), and the government/taxpayer foots the bill in the end!  It is simply a transfer of capital from taxpayers to educators with students trapped in the middle.

Finally, if too many people get upset with situation, and see no reasonable way out, why not "flip the table"?  I think that is why SO many younger people in the USA are being attracted to socialism.  That is a VERY dangerous thing indeed.

The education industrial complex in the USA is rotten to the core and needs to be changed.  The sooner the better.

No offense taken.
But a couple of very relevant points ...

Education is not collateral that may be seized and sold to repay debt; at best it produces a higher MINIMUM future income, over the students remaining working life. Take away the ability to remove debt through bankruptcy, and that future POTENTIAL income stream can now become collateral for a loan. We may not like it, but that is the offer in the US.

Getting an educational certificate, is NOT a job guarantee; it is just 3rd party verification that person A has been awarded certificate X, that represents Y years of formal schooling in the broad subject area specified. How well Person A passed their subjects is not a consideration. It does not become a consideration unless that person tries for graduate school, when a minimum GPA will be required. 

It is to the employer to verify credentials when he/she hires person A. 'Reputation' just means that prospective employers evidence a repeating preference for School X over School Y. It may be simply because the parents/students of School X are generally better 'connected', and have nothing to do with the technical 'excellence' of the students it graduates. And if your business relies upon 'connectedness', this is an entirely rational decision (I-Banking, Legal, Medicine, Academia, etc); student misintrepretation is not the schools problem, only misrepresentation is. 

Buyer beware applies to everything we do, and 'stupid' is not a defense. Most people would not buy a house without using a real-estate agent, a new/used car without doing research or bringing an expert with them, or marry the girl/boy next door without an extended courtship period. Going to school, choice of school, and selection of the eventual school, is no different.

A certificate mill only exists because new customers (students) are not doing their due diligence, for whatever reason. This is America, the land of opportunity; and it would appear, that this is an area rife with opportunity. Rather than fight the system, why not make it work for you instead?

People make mistakes, that's life. All over North America there are thousands of small towns and cities screaming for doctors, nurses, professionals, etc. to live in and/or service their communities; and we live in an era where the ability to work 'remotely' has never been better than it currently is. It is a simple step to conditionally link limited debt forgiveness to an extended period of physically living in these areas. Fly in/out for work as you wish, but you physically live in small town X for 'N' years.

This isn't harsh, this is just life.
If you screw up - there are consequences. The same as it has always been.
   
SD

   
« Last Edit: May 04, 2019, 03:41:33 PM by SharperDingaan »

Parsad

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Re: Free college
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2019, 11:47:41 AM »
USA has perfected a crooked form of capitalism in Education & Healthcare that has resulted in economic slavery for substantial part of the population.

The conditions are very ripe for a good old fashioned revolution if things go unchecked. The "powers be" have kept a lid by smoke and mirrors (focusing attention on guns, abortion, immigrants, race etc). If not resolved, this will bring down the house of cards.

I don't know what the solution is:

For starters,

Nationalize the production & distribution of must need generics (insulin etc)
Break textbook & scientific journal monopoly

The revolution will come when the generation screwed by non dischargable student loans has enough Heft in the voting booth and can call the shots at elections. I think it’s inevitable that student loans will become dischargable. Might screw up the financial system a bit cost taxpayers dearly, but so be it. Every generation has the “right” to screw up the system at least once in their lifetime.

So true...both sad and very realistic in thought and practice.  Cheers!
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