Corner of Berkshire & Fairfax Message Board

General Category => Politics => Topic started by: Parsad on June 11, 2018, 06:51:14 PM

Title: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: Parsad on June 11, 2018, 06:51:14 PM
Can you imagine 5-10 years ago, if we said that in 2018, President Donald Trump would have a "historic" summit with Kim Jong Un and Denis Rodman will travel to Singapore to provide support for the meeting!  Would anyone have been called elitist for laughing at such an event?  Or prescient?  Yet here we are...President Donald Trump is going to be best buddies with Kim Jong Un and Denis Rodman is the consigliere to both!  The Rapture is upon us...welcome to hell!  Cheers!
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: rkbabang on June 11, 2018, 07:20:35 PM
I don’t know when I jumped over to this timeline, but it is sure more interesting than the one I used to be on
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: OracleofCarolina on June 11, 2018, 07:42:03 PM
Can’t wait till Kanye joins the cabinet to see you reaction ..haha
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: alpha on June 11, 2018, 07:44:10 PM

To top it off Larry Kudlow is the chief economic adviser and he just had a heart attack before the summit began.

Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: Parsad on June 11, 2018, 10:43:31 PM
About 7-8 years ago, I was at a meeting where Larry Sarbit was presenting.  He talked about a book that discussed historically, how no matter what the circumstances, but the United States always got the President it deserved at that time.  What does that say about the times we live in today!  Sorry, I can't remember the title of the book, but if I remember, I will let you know. 

Canada, Mexico and the European allies are trade enemies, while the President of the U.S. caters to a brutal North Korean dictator and fights to have the Russians added to the G7.  This almost seems to be some dystopian future taken out of a graphic novel written by the creator of the Walking Dead.  But it's not so much of a fearful environment as one that is simply satirical or completely unbelievable. 

Then you have jackasses swearing at the President on television.  The President seeking revenge by Twitter.  Staff quiting every other week.  The spokesperson literally lying to the press after each question.  And Evangelicals forgiving infidelity like it was like changing jobs!  Bizarro world has nothing on us!  Cheers!
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: EliG on June 12, 2018, 05:07:13 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DffTHQqVMAABNhT.jpg:small)

h/t @greatquarter
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: augustabound on June 12, 2018, 05:13:47 AM
Welcome to Trump National Golf Course in Pyongyang, North Korea.  ;D
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: Cardboard on June 12, 2018, 06:12:17 AM
What is this thread again? Another bout of Hillary didn't win?  :'(

If the Democrats had organized this meeting with the exact same end result, the media and those in this thread would have called this the greatest peaceful diplomatic effort ever. Give them the Nobel Prize!

You guys are unreal. While I don't appreciate all of what Trump does, there is a lot of truth in what he says. Even Buffett used to warn about trade deficits. Buffett was more politically correct but, still the same message.

And trying to reach peace with North Korea and Russia is not a bad idea IMO. A nuclear exchange is not good! We should also not tell other countries how they choose to lead themselves. We had our own revolutions to determine that. It is up to them to figure it out.

Cardboard
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: rkbabang on June 12, 2018, 06:23:10 AM
A picture is worth a thousand words
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: rkbabang on June 12, 2018, 06:28:35 AM
What is this thread again? Another bout of Hillary didn't win?  :'(

If the Democrats had organized this meeting with the exact same end result, the media and those in this thread would have called this the greatest peaceful diplomatic effort ever. Give them the Nobel Prize!

You guys are unreal. While I don't appreciate all of what Trump does, there is a lot of truth in what he says. Even Buffett used to warn about trade deficits. Buffett was more politically correct but, still the same message.

And trying to reach peace with North Korea and Russia is not a bad idea IMO. A nuclear exchange is not good! We should also not tell other countries how they choose to lead themselves. We had our own revolutions to determine that. It is up to them to figure it out.

Cardboard

All joking aside you are correct.  They gave Obama a Nobel Peace prize for making some anti-war noises during a political campaign (wars which he went on to escalate dramatically in his 8 years in office becoming many times the mass murderer his predecessor was).  By any standard Trump should be awarded the next Peace Prize for this.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: EliG on June 12, 2018, 06:51:38 AM
If the Democrats had organized this meeting with the exact same end result, the media and those in this thread would have called this the greatest peaceful diplomatic effort ever. Give them the Nobel Prize!

On the flip side, Fox News HATED the idea of Obama talking to foreign dictators. Guess how they feel about Trump doing it???

https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/974315033994788865
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: rkbabang on June 12, 2018, 06:56:28 AM
If the Democrats had organized this meeting with the exact same end result, the media and those in this thread would have called this the greatest peaceful diplomatic effort ever. Give them the Nobel Prize!

On the flip side, Fox News HATED the idea of Obama talking to foreign dictators. Guess how they feel about Trump doing it???

https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/974315033994788865


Yup, they are all hypocrites on both sides.  It's more about their team wining with absolutely no first principles driving any of their opinions.  If my team does it is good, if their team does it, it is bad.  Neither side is any better than the other when it comes to this.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: CorpRaider on June 12, 2018, 07:11:02 AM
I don't think they are all hypocrites on both sides.  I think there are hypocrites on both sides (many) and one should endeavor to avoid polluting your mind, and society, with their views and to seek out and support the more principled, rational voices.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: augustabound on June 12, 2018, 07:13:15 AM
What is this thread again? Another bout of Hillary didn't win?  :'(

If the Democrats had organized this meeting with the exact same end result, the media and those in this thread would have called this the greatest peaceful diplomatic effort ever.

And trying to reach peace with North Korea and Russia is not a bad idea IMO.

If another republican president were to organize a meeting people would have said it's the greatest peaceful diplomatic effort ever. This is Trump.

Reaching peaceful agreements with either of those nations should be a good idea but people don't trust him.
This isn't straight up republicans versus democrats. This is one guy that very few people in the world trust working with arguably the 2 most dangerous nations in the world and very few trust his motives.

I thought at this point something like that should be crystal clear.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: rkbabang on June 12, 2018, 08:22:41 AM
I don't think they are all hypocrites on both sides.  I think there are hypocrites on both sides (many) and one should endeavor to avoid polluting your mind, and society, with their views and to seek out and support the more principled, rational voices.

Yes, of course. I’ll rephrase that to there are many hypocrites on both sides.

I love this story. I guess wishing for an economic collapse is better than hoping for nuclear war, but the principle is the same only the magnitude is different. “Sorry if that hurts people”  I’m sure he isn’t.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/bill-maher-is-hoping-for-an-economic-collapse-so-he-can-get-rid-of-trump-sorry-if-that-hurts-people
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: bobozou on June 12, 2018, 10:07:23 AM
rkbabang - i just want to point out a subtle, but essential, difference between the following two statements (I don't follow maher, and I don't want to talk about politics)

1) "I wish for an economic collapse, to simply prove a point"

vs

2) "I wish for an economic collapse, to prove a point - in order to improve future decision making, and to create a better LONGTERM (vague, but generally implied to be significantly longer than a single human lifetime) outcome"

Often times, people are making statements that sound like the former, but really mean the latter

Without speaking to the American public's view of Trump & economy specifically, human beings (everywhere) are generally pretty poor at effectively drawing cause/effect relationships when a) things are complex/multi-variate, b) things are lagged (or not literally immediate), and c) things impact their own well-being.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: netnet on June 12, 2018, 10:13:02 AM
Quick question->Checking Munger's list of misjudgements, we have a number of factors including the lollapaloza in for a multiplied combination of factors for those Trump defenders.

Trump will go down as one of the worst presidents the US has ever had, just on foreign policy:
Trump is the textbook definition of the Dunning-Kruger effect
(I never post on the politics section because there (generally) no discussion or convincing just venting; so there, I have vented ;) )
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: Parsad on June 12, 2018, 11:20:24 AM
Quick question->Checking Munger's list of misjudgements, we have a number of factors including the lollapaloza in for a multiplied combination of factors for those Trump defenders.

Trump will go down as one of the worst presidents the US has ever had, just on foreign policy:
  • He seems hell bent on destroying the Atlantic alliance that won the cold war;
  • He denounces Trudeau (who doesn't get along with Canadians, for crissakes?) and
  • He effusively praises a man, who has killed his own uncle and own brother and starved his people to assemble an arsenal of nukes. Trump has given him status points and blind sided (again) a staunch ally, S. Korea, by stopping military exercises with nothing concrete in exchange. (the fact that we deal with other nasties, like PRC, is no excuse for Trump to give Kim the gift of being seen as an equal to the president of the US. This is an absolute and astonishing consession.  You have to deal with China given it's economic and geopolitical weight.
Trump is the textbook definition of the Dunning-Kruger effect
(I never post on the politics section because there (generally) no discussion or convincing just venting; so there, I have vented ;) )

I don't know about this.  It's what I thought, but the results are mixed.  The man is a complete idiot in terms of grace, manners, intellect and is a total misogynist and a bigot.  But he knows what has worked for him over the years and he sticks to it like a stubborn mule...and if it works for him...then he truly believes it works for everyone else.  I read somewhere that his modus operandi is "No friends, no enemies!"  He unleashes chaos because it then creates confusion and opportunity.

Cardboard has gone off the deep end like many and swallowed the kool-aid, but the hardcore right-wing nutjobs did reveal something very important...that the democrats had become extremely complacent, and that there were as many nutjobs on this side as well! 

Now you have a divisive country, where the President is hell-bent on taking a wrecking ball to everything built over the last two administrations, in particular the administration that made fun of him.  Boy are people now regretting that correspondent's dinner where Obama enjoyed 2 minutes at Trump's expense...and Trump the petulant bully that he is will never let it go.  And you have a republican party that will now literally forgive anything Trump does...you could see lynchings again, and they would ignore it.

In the meantime, he succeeds slowly and steadily at executing his promises...by hook or crook (literally Scott Pruitt of the EPA is a crook), he's finding ways to get what he wants done.  And as long as the republicans get lower taxes and keep their guns, they will support this guy to the end of the world...and we just may see it!  Cheers!
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: nickenumbers on June 12, 2018, 11:59:58 AM
Totally agree with Parsad.

Take the rule book, and standard politician motivations and incentives and throw it out the window when it comes to Trump.

I love watching the incumbent politicians and power brokers worry and plan against Trump and to date it has been like taking a whiz into the wind.

Amusing.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: SharperDingaan on June 12, 2018, 12:35:46 PM
The US has a way of dealing with disuptors that goes back a very long way. They serve for a while, then they don't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_assassination_attempts_and_plots

So far the man has lived for a very long time - but most would expect that the candle cannot have much left.
Were there an 'accident' tomorrow; would there be millions 'dancing in the streets', or just thousands with 'heads held low' ?
How many votes is that worth ??

SD
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: rkbabang on June 12, 2018, 12:48:16 PM
The US has a way of dealing with disuptors that goes back a very long way. They serve for a while, then they don't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_assassination_attempts_and_plots

So far the man has lived for a very long time - but most would expect that the candle cannot have much left.
Were there an 'accident' tomorrow; would there be millions 'dancing in the streets', or just thousans with 'heads held low' ?

SD


I've never liked any president in my lifetime (including Trump), but wishing for someone's death is not something I'm capable of.
Had you said the above about Obama, you would have had a hundred messages posted already of people screaming at you.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: SharperDingaan on June 12, 2018, 02:08:46 PM
The US has a way of dealing with disuptors that goes back a very long way. They serve for a while, then they don't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_assassination_attempts_and_plots

So far the man has lived for a very long time - but most would expect that the candle cannot have much left.
Were there an 'accident' tomorrow; would there be millions 'dancing in the streets', or just thousans with 'heads held low' ?

SD


I've never liked any president in my lifetime (including Trump), but wishing for someone's death is not something I'm capable of.
Had you said the above about Obama, you would have had a hundred messages posted already of people screaming at you.

We aren't wishing any harm on anyone.
We are just stating fact. The US has a long-record of disposing of disruptive presidents that goes back centuries. Not once, but multiple times, and Wikipedia is only referencing those attempts that were publicly reported. We were just blunt.

Events of this type have low probability, high impact economic outcomes, and as such - are 'black swan events' well in-scope for an investment board. We just had the poor taste to highlight that the probability would appear to be rising, and the temerity to suggest that such an event might be popular.

Louis XVI lost his head to the French revolution. Similar story with Tzar Nicholas II in the Russian revolution.
Events of this type are common, we just prefer not to be reminded of them.

SD
 
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: Parsad on June 12, 2018, 02:41:22 PM
The US has a way of dealing with disuptors that goes back a very long way. They serve for a while, then they don't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_assassination_attempts_and_plots

So far the man has lived for a very long time - but most would expect that the candle cannot have much left.
Were there an 'accident' tomorrow; would there be millions 'dancing in the streets', or just thousans with 'heads held low' ?

SD


I've never liked any president in my lifetime (including Trump), but wishing for someone's death is not something I'm capable of.
Had you said the above about Obama, you would have had a hundred messages posted already of people screaming at you.

I think you would have had hundreds of messages screaming if Obama had done this:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trumps-astonishing-concession-kim-jong-un-north-korea-190814681.html

The deal with Iran pales in comparison...it would be like giving Kim Jong Un and China a bottle of two-buck "chuck!"  China and Russia are playing Trump like a fiddle and this is going to create a big problem for some administration 15-20 years down the road when the U.S. starts to look alot like Great Britain on the global stage.  Cheers!
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: Spekulatius on June 12, 2018, 05:43:04 PM
^ This is what happens when you have a grown up child playing Mr. President. The politics are just hunches of his gut instincts or are they just brain farts. He likes the company of dictators more than of his allies, because the dictators appease him and that is all that counts at the moment.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: rkbabang on June 12, 2018, 06:25:27 PM
The US has a way of dealing with disuptors that goes back a very long way. They serve for a while, then they don't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_assassination_attempts_and_plots

So far the man has lived for a very long time - but most would expect that the candle cannot have much left.
Were there an 'accident' tomorrow; would there be millions 'dancing in the streets', or just thousans with 'heads held low' ?

SD


I've never liked any president in my lifetime (including Trump), but wishing for someone's death is not something I'm capable of.
Had you said the above about Obama, you would have had a hundred messages posted already of people screaming at you.

I think you would have had hundreds of messages screaming if Obama had done this:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trumps-astonishing-concession-kim-jong-un-north-korea-190814681.html

The deal with Iran pales in comparison...it would be like giving Kim Jong Un and China a bottle of two-buck "chuck!"  China and Russia are playing Trump like a fiddle and this is going to create a big problem for some administration 15-20 years down the road when the U.S. starts to look alot like Great Britain on the global stage.  Cheers!

Of course, only it would be most of the people now criticizing trump defending him, and the people now praising Trump criticizing him.  It's so predictable it's almost funny.

The same people who called Bush an actual war criminal, called for his arrest and prosecution, and were marching in the streets in protest praised Obama for doing worse.  It's all about teams, that's all.

I happen to agree with what Trump is doing. Imagine if North Korea or China were playing war games with Cuba in the Gulf of Mexico?  The US has no right to be over there at all.  Our ships have no business outside of US waters and our troops have no business outside US territories.  And I would have said exactly this any time you asked me during my entire adult life regardless of who was president.

Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: Parsad on June 12, 2018, 06:55:41 PM
The US has a way of dealing with disuptors that goes back a very long way. They serve for a while, then they don't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_assassination_attempts_and_plots

So far the man has lived for a very long time - but most would expect that the candle cannot have much left.
Were there an 'accident' tomorrow; would there be millions 'dancing in the streets', or just thousans with 'heads held low' ?

SD


I've never liked any president in my lifetime (including Trump), but wishing for someone's death is not something I'm capable of.
Had you said the above about Obama, you would have had a hundred messages posted already of people screaming at you.

I think you would have had hundreds of messages screaming if Obama had done this:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trumps-astonishing-concession-kim-jong-un-north-korea-190814681.html

The deal with Iran pales in comparison...it would be like giving Kim Jong Un and China a bottle of two-buck "chuck!"  China and Russia are playing Trump like a fiddle and this is going to create a big problem for some administration 15-20 years down the road when the U.S. starts to look alot like Great Britain on the global stage.  Cheers!

Of course, only it would be most of the people now criticizing trump defending him, and the people now praising Trump criticizing him.  It's so predictable it's almost funny.

The same people who called Bush an actual war criminal, called for his arrest and prosecution, and were marching in the streets in protest praised Obama for doing worse.  It's all about teams, that's all.

I happen to agree with what Trump is doing. Imagine if North Korea or China were playing war games with Cuba in the Gulf of Mexico?  The US has no right to be over there at all.  Our ships have no business outside of US waters and our troops have no business outside US territories.  And I would have said exactly this any time you asked me during my entire adult life regardless of who was president.

I didn't agree with the Iraq war, whether it was under Bush or under Obama.  I don't think we should be meddling in other country's politics unless there is something severe occurring like genocide...and even that should be done through the UN (for better or worse).  But, in an era of nuclear proliferation and a handful of nations with enough nukes to annihilate everyone on the planet, I think a nuclear deterrent only works when you have the U.S. embedded in certain ally territories. 

The U.S. shouldn't have been the world's policeman in the first place, but now that they are, maybe they need to be and we cannot go back...although the word should be changed to peacekeeper.  Cheers!
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: rkbabang on June 12, 2018, 07:57:50 PM
The US has a way of dealing with disuptors that goes back a very long way. They serve for a while, then they don't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_assassination_attempts_and_plots

So far the man has lived for a very long time - but most would expect that the candle cannot have much left.
Were there an 'accident' tomorrow; would there be millions 'dancing in the streets', or just thousans with 'heads held low' ?

SD


I've never liked any president in my lifetime (including Trump), but wishing for someone's death is not something I'm capable of.
Had you said the above about Obama, you would have had a hundred messages posted already of people screaming at you.

I think you would have had hundreds of messages screaming if Obama had done this:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trumps-astonishing-concession-kim-jong-un-north-korea-190814681.html

The deal with Iran pales in comparison...it would be like giving Kim Jong Un and China a bottle of two-buck "chuck!"  China and Russia are playing Trump like a fiddle and this is going to create a big problem for some administration 15-20 years down the road when the U.S. starts to look alot like Great Britain on the global stage.  Cheers!

Of course, only it would be most of the people now criticizing trump defending him, and the people now praising Trump criticizing him.  It's so predictable it's almost funny.

The same people who called Bush an actual war criminal, called for his arrest and prosecution, and were marching in the streets in protest praised Obama for doing worse.  It's all about teams, that's all.

I happen to agree with what Trump is doing. Imagine if North Korea or China were playing war games with Cuba in the Gulf of Mexico?  The US has no right to be over there at all.  Our ships have no business outside of US waters and our troops have no business outside US territories.  And I would have said exactly this any time you asked me during my entire adult life regardless of who was president.

I didn't agree with the Iraq war, whether it was under Bush or under Obama.  I don't think we should be meddling in other country's politics unless there is something severe occurring like genocide...and even that should be done through the UN (for better or worse).  But, in an era of nuclear proliferation and a handful of nations with enough nukes to annihilate everyone on the planet, I think a nuclear deterrent only works when you have the U.S. embedded in certain ally territories. 

The U.S. shouldn't have been the world's policeman in the first place, but now that they are, maybe they need to be and we cannot go back...although the word should be changed to peacekeeper.  Cheers!

Nuclear deterrent doesn't require troops or surface ships to be anywhere.  We have enough missiles in submarines to destroy the planet many times over.  We also can hit any spot on Earth with ICBMs.  Unwinding the empire would be tricky though.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: Spekulatius on June 12, 2018, 08:06:41 PM
Quote
Equally surprising as Trump’s military announcement was the fact that he reportedly took this unilateral step without notifying South Korean and Japanese allies, or the Pentagon. The cancellation of the exercises has been a North Korean priority for decades, and in calling them “war games” and “provocative,” Trump adopted the rhetoric of Pyongyang
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: Parsad on June 12, 2018, 10:04:10 PM
The US has a way of dealing with disuptors that goes back a very long way. They serve for a while, then they don't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_assassination_attempts_and_plots

So far the man has lived for a very long time - but most would expect that the candle cannot have much left.
Were there an 'accident' tomorrow; would there be millions 'dancing in the streets', or just thousans with 'heads held low' ?

SD


I've never liked any president in my lifetime (including Trump), but wishing for someone's death is not something I'm capable of.
Had you said the above about Obama, you would have had a hundred messages posted already of people screaming at you.

I think you would have had hundreds of messages screaming if Obama had done this:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trumps-astonishing-concession-kim-jong-un-north-korea-190814681.html

The deal with Iran pales in comparison...it would be like giving Kim Jong Un and China a bottle of two-buck "chuck!"  China and Russia are playing Trump like a fiddle and this is going to create a big problem for some administration 15-20 years down the road when the U.S. starts to look alot like Great Britain on the global stage.  Cheers!

Of course, only it would be most of the people now criticizing trump defending him, and the people now praising Trump criticizing him.  It's so predictable it's almost funny.

The same people who called Bush an actual war criminal, called for his arrest and prosecution, and were marching in the streets in protest praised Obama for doing worse.  It's all about teams, that's all.

I happen to agree with what Trump is doing. Imagine if North Korea or China were playing war games with Cuba in the Gulf of Mexico?  The US has no right to be over there at all.  Our ships have no business outside of US waters and our troops have no business outside US territories.  And I would have said exactly this any time you asked me during my entire adult life regardless of who was president.

I didn't agree with the Iraq war, whether it was under Bush or under Obama.  I don't think we should be meddling in other country's politics unless there is something severe occurring like genocide...and even that should be done through the UN (for better or worse).  But, in an era of nuclear proliferation and a handful of nations with enough nukes to annihilate everyone on the planet, I think a nuclear deterrent only works when you have the U.S. embedded in certain ally territories. 

The U.S. shouldn't have been the world's policeman in the first place, but now that they are, maybe they need to be and we cannot go back...although the word should be changed to peacekeeper.  Cheers!

Nuclear deterrent doesn't require troops or surface ships to be anywhere.  We have enough missiles in submarines to destroy the planet many times over.  We also can hit any spot on Earth with ICBMs.  Unwinding the empire would be tricky though.

If your stationary nukes and nukes on subs are 15 minutes away by air, that's an advantage for someone else whose nukes are 40-50 minutes away.  Especially if you are utilizing a missile defense system or plan on shooting down any ICBM's.  Having bases in the Pacific or Europe also deters China and Russia from expanding their own bases, or even expanding their territories.  In essence, the U.S.'s despised bases in some 70+ countries, actually helps deter global conflict.  I wish they had never expanded after the Second World War, but they did and it was a necessary evil.  Cheers!
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: rb on June 12, 2018, 10:50:01 PM
I think you would have had hundreds of messages screaming if Obama had done this:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trumps-astonishing-concession-kim-jong-un-north-korea-190814681.html

The deal with Iran pales in comparison...it would be like giving Kim Jong Un and China a bottle of two-buck "chuck!"  China and Russia are playing Trump like a fiddle and this is going to create a big problem for some administration 15-20 years down the road when the U.S. starts to look alot like Great Britain on the global stage.  Cheers!
Weird thing about this, Monday night Chris Wallace was on Colbert saying he was afraid that Trump will do just that because that's what Kim really wants.

So there's your new US foreign policy: appease North Korea, attack Canada. Maybe we should announce that we'll start a nuclear weapons program.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: Cardboard on June 13, 2018, 05:47:52 AM
"The man is a complete idiot in terms of grace, manners, intellect and is a total misogynist and a bigot.  But he knows what has worked for him over the years and he sticks to it like a stubborn mule...and if it works for him...then he truly believes it works for everyone else.  I read somewhere that his modus operandi is "No friends, no enemies!"  He unleashes chaos because it then creates confusion and opportunity.

Cardboard has gone off the deep end like many and swallowed the kool-aid, but the hardcore right-wing nutjobs did reveal something very important..."

I do hope that you are as good to recognize your own failings as you are to recognize them into others.

Cheers!

Cardboard
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: Spekulatius on June 13, 2018, 08:15:07 AM
Let’s not post anything on this board that would prevent us from having a nice beer together , if we would meet face to face. The topic isn‘t worth the aggravation, imo.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: Gregmal on June 13, 2018, 09:36:16 AM
Rubbing Canada, or Germany, and whatever ally country the wrong way isn't the end of the world. Whereas working to turn long time enemies and threats into at least neutralized parties, or god forbid even quasi allies, I don't see how this is a bad thing. For all the "change" people whine about wanting, and dissatisfaction with the good ole boys club inherent within the political system both domestically and globally among the G7, its hilarious to me how much bitching and moaning there is about anyone looking to shake things up. Forgetting the fact that we're also in a world where the anti Trump crowd's one dimensional game plan is to immediately find a negative spin the second anything Trump related comes up... Oh well. There is no question that even at it's worst, the summit with Kim was a positive event. Yet people want to cry about Trudeau's feelings being hurt or an off the cuff comment about stopping military drills(which any sensible person knows would have major conditions and definitely would not happen overnight). Bitch and moan, bitch and moan.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: Cigarbutt on June 13, 2018, 10:01:20 AM
"its hilarious to me how much bitching and moaning there is about anyone looking to shake things up.

Part of it may be resistance to change.
BTW, I also see the summit as a potential positive even if the strategy feels awkward but I submit that it's too early to call peace for our time.
Have always been fascinated by change and all kinds of restructurings.
In my limited experience, the best plans are based on reasonable objectives and fair dealings.

Can you elaborate on the intent and the objectives after things are shaken up?
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: EliG on June 13, 2018, 10:19:37 AM
Rubbing Canada, or Germany, and whatever ally country the wrong way isn't the end of the world. Whereas working to turn long time enemies and threats into at least neutralized parties, or god forbid even quasi allies, I don't see how this is a bad thing. For all the "change" people whine about wanting, and dissatisfaction with the good ole boys club inherent within the political system both domestically and globally among the G7, its hilarious to me how much bitching and moaning there is about anyone looking to shake things up. Forgetting the fact that we're also in a world where the anti Trump crowd's one dimensional game plan is to immediately find a negative spin the second anything Trump related comes up... Oh well. There is no question that even at it's worst, the summit with Kim was a positive event. Yet people want to cry about Trudeau's feelings being hurt or an off the cuff comment about stopping military drills(which any sensible person knows would have major conditions and definitely would not happen overnight). Bitch and moan, bitch and moan.

Black is white, white is black in the Red Hat Land.

Trudeau made a short statement at the end of G7: Canada will respond tit-for-tat for any tariffs imposed by Trump.

There was nothing new in that statement. Trudeau had said the exact same thing before the summit. That routine statement triggered an avalanche of insults from Trump and his minions. Bitch and moan is apt... describes Trump's reaction perfectly.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: doc75 on June 13, 2018, 10:40:37 AM
... even at it's worst, the summit with Kim was a positive event.

Kim would definitely agree with you.  He couldn't have asked for more.

Glad to see any form of dialogue, even excessive flattery, as opposed to military ratcheting.  But really I find it hard to give a lot of credit to someone when they de-escalate a conflict they themselves escalated. 

It's been over a year  and I'm still amazed at Trump's capacity for self-aggrandizement.

That said:  For the sake of the planet, and the NK people in particular, I sincerely hope the crazy orange squirrel has cracked the nut.   

Quote
Yet people want to cry about Trudeau's feelings being hurt or an off the cuff comment about stopping military drills(which any sensible person knows would have major conditions and definitely would not happen overnight). Bitch and moan, bitch and moan.

Trump's comments regarding Trudeau were childish and, in many's opinion, unbefitting of the president.  This would remain true even if he dismantled the NK nukes himself with Jared holding the ladder.   Why shouldn't he be called out on them?   

Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: Cardboard on June 13, 2018, 10:54:09 AM
For those still pumping Trudeau:

http://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/bonokoski-shocker-resurfaced-editorial-slams-justin-trudeau-as-a-groper

So perfect all these liberals...

Cardboard
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: Gregmal on June 13, 2018, 11:03:06 AM
"its hilarious to me how much bitching and moaning there is about anyone looking to shake things up.

Part of it may be resistance to change.
BTW, I also see the summit as a potential positive even if the strategy feels awkward but I submit that it's too early to call peace for our time.
Have always been fascinated by change and all kinds of restructurings.
In my limited experience, the best plans are based on reasonable objectives and fair dealings.

Can you elaborate on the intent and the objectives after things are shaken up?

That is definitely part of it. I also think people who want change, want it all on their terms and when they don't get what they want, have to fabricate stories and use scare tactics to try and reroute things the way they want them to go.

I think largely what's happening is that countries/institutions who have gotten sweetheart deals from the US for decades, don't like being told that they need to start giving a little bit back. It's like the UN for instance, is more or less funded by the US, yet provide very little reciprocation or benefit to the US. China basically gets to play by two sets of rules. Mexico does nothing to enforce borders and even if you look at what's going on in their "nicer" cities, it's an outright disaster. Trump it seems is resetting things and evaluating them based on business principles. Which when it comes to trade, is the right thing to do. If you can't/don't offer me anything that benefits me, why should you benefit? You shouldn't. Thus I use my leverage to readjust the degree to which doing business with you is more favorable to me.

Of course this is a process, and it will take a while. It's just startling how much dunce cap thinking coming from supposedly intelligent people. Not even first level thinking, it's like the type of people that read a headline on the newspaper, or overhear something while in line at the water cooler and then embrace that headline as their truth without any grasp of the finer details and larger implication behind everything present in it's substance. It's as though absolutely anything that occurs, no matter how positive(tax cuts, good economic numbers, improved relations with previous enemies) must be met with blind and largely "first level thinking" criticism just because one is so married to "their side". Rallying cries like "Trump's racist"(more in depth analysis would lead an informed person to the conclusion that the majority of US Presidents were most likely racist and this had little effect on their ability to do a good or bad job), he's a misogynist(again most presidents, let alone many business people, successful or not are. Being a pig, or a shitty person has little correlation to the success in your profession), "he's pissing off our allies!" (It's almost impossible to get anywhere in life without having to at least step on the toes of a few people), he's cozy with Russia/North Korea!!(again, looking to smooth over relationships that were previously sour! the horrors!).

So in relation to this place specifically, one in which I believe has a higher competency than most and as investors we should be trained to be somewhat contrarian and look for off shoots or mispriced or underappreciated angles; things others don't see, in order to succeed. Trump winning the election was so obvious to me and it was probably one of the most "mispriced" events in my lifetime. And yet, you can see it going back in the threads, so many smart people were utterly blinded by this first level mainstream thinking and rooting for "their candidate", that they missed it completely. And then were too busy rooting against the guy who beat their candidate, that they continue to miss out on opportunities that are obvious. And while one of the pillars of investing is learning from your mistakes, these people still seem to be so personally invested in their emotions and biases, that they still can't even turn it around. My inkling is there is quite of bit of under performance here. And its not because of one's political beleifs, but its an offshoot of the fact that when you get too emotionally invested in something, your inability to see opportunities and price the probability of outcomes becomes severely impaired. Its like "OMG Kim Jong Un is going to blow up the world because Trump SAID he would potentially remove military drills/personnel from the area". And that becomes the truth for these people and instead of looking for ways to capitalize on the off shoot outcomes, they just sit there and stew about big, bad ole Trump. Or my favorite, Russia. Russia is a world power. There is massive investment opportunity there if things thaw out a bit. Which appears likely it will under Trump. Very fertile grounds for investment. Nah bro! Evil Russia! Evil Putin, election interference! Collusion! Its all very amusing to me watching people behave like this.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: doc75 on June 13, 2018, 11:19:33 AM
For those still pumping Trudeau:

http://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/bonokoski-shocker-resurfaced-editorial-slams-justin-trudeau-as-a-groper

So perfect all these liberals...

Cardboard

Who said Trudeau was perfect?   Let alone all liberals?    Is anybody on this board even "pumping" Trudeau? 






Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: Jurgis on June 13, 2018, 11:22:23 AM
I sincerely hope the crazy orange squirrel has cracked the nut.   

I really liked the pun.  ;D
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: rkbabang on June 13, 2018, 11:22:27 AM
he's cozy with Russia/North Korea!!(again, looking to smooth over relationships that were previously sour! the horrors!).

This one I'll never understand.  Both of these are nuclear powers.  Nothing good can come from being unnecessarily adversarial. 

And as far as NK goes, the best thing we can do for the people of NK is encourage them to open up to both tourism and trade.  I don't think Castro would have controlled Cuba for over 50 years if it wasn't for the US embargo.  It helped no one but Castro, not the US, not the Cuban people.

And even if you think, as Sanjeev does, that the US needs 800 military bases in more than 70 countries around the world, performing war exercises near NK or China or Russia is just being purposely aggressive. It isn't necessary.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: Gregmal on June 13, 2018, 11:27:07 AM
"its hilarious to me how much bitching and moaning there is about anyone looking to shake things up.

Part of it may be resistance to change.
BTW, I also see the summit as a potential positive even if the strategy feels awkward but I submit that it's too early to call peace for our time.
Have always been fascinated by change and all kinds of restructurings.
In my limited experience, the best plans are based on reasonable objectives and fair dealings.

Can you elaborate on the intent and the objectives after things are shaken up?

That is definitely part of it. I also think people who want change, want it all on their terms and when they don't get what they want, have to fabricate stories and use scare tactics to try and reroute things the way they want them to go.

I think largely what's happening is that countries/institutions who have gotten sweetheart deals from the US for decades, don't like being told that they need to start giving a little bit back. It's like the UN for instance, is more or less funded by the US, yet provide very little reciprocation or benefit to the US. China basically gets to play by two sets of rules. Mexico does nothing to enforce borders and even if you look at what's going on in their "nicer" cities, it's an outright disaster. Trump it seems is resetting things and evaluating them based on business principles. Which when it comes to trade, is the right thing to do. If you can't/don't offer me anything that benefits me, why should you benefit? You shouldn't. Thus I use my leverage to readjust the degree to which doing business with you is more favorable to me.

Of course this is a process, and it will take a while. It's just startling how much dunce cap thinking coming from supposedly intelligent people. Not even first level thinking, it's like the type of people that read a headline on the newspaper, or overhear something while in line at the water cooler and then embrace that headline as their truth without any grasp of the finer details and larger implication behind everything present in it's substance. It's as though absolutely anything that occurs, no matter how positive(tax cuts, good economic numbers, improved relations with previous enemies) must be met with blind and largely "first level thinking" criticism just because one is so married to "their side". Rallying cries like "Trump's racist"(more in depth analysis would lead an informed person to the conclusion that the majority of US Presidents were most likely racist and this had little effect on their ability to do a good or bad job), he's a misogynist(again most presidents, let alone many business people, successful or not are. Being a pig, or a shitty person has little correlation to the success in your profession), "he's pissing off our allies!" (It's almost impossible to get anywhere in life without having to at least step on the toes of a few people), he's cozy with Russia/North Korea!!(again, looking to smooth over relationships that were previously sour! the horrors!).

So in relation to this place specifically, one in which I believe has a higher competency than most and as investors we should be trained to be somewhat contrarian and look for off shoots or mispriced or underappreciated angles; things others don't see, in order to succeed. Trump winning the election was so obvious to me and it was probably one of the most "mispriced" events in my lifetime. And yet, you can see it going back in the threads, so many smart people were utterly blinded by this first level mainstream thinking and rooting for "their candidate", that they missed it completely. And then were too busy rooting against the guy who beat their candidate, that they continue to miss out on opportunities that are obvious. And while one of the pillars of investing is learning from your mistakes, these people still seem to be so personally invested in their emotions and biases, that they still can't even turn it around. My inkling is there is quite of bit of under performance here. And its not because of one's political beleifs, but its an offshoot of the fact that when you get too emotionally invested in something, your inability to see opportunities and price the probability of outcomes becomes severely impaired. Its like "OMG Kim Jong Un is going to blow up the world because Trump SAID he would potentially remove military drills/personnel from the area". And that becomes the truth for these people and instead of looking for ways to capitalize on the off shoot outcomes, they just sit there and stew about big, bad ole Trump. Or my favorite, Russia. Russia is a world power. There is massive investment opportunity there if things thaw out a bit. Which appears likely it will under Trump. Very fertile grounds for investment. Nah bro! Evil Russia! Evil Putin, election interference! Collusion! Its all very amusing to me watching people behave like this.

Or to summarize this is a less wordy way, some of the thought process here is symptomatic of cognitive impairments. The same way a guy with a limp indicates a lower body injury. As an investor, your bread and butter is interpreting data and assessing likelihoods to good/bad outcomes. And if one is presented with a complex macro picture with many different scenarios and outcomes, but the majority of which have so far occurred in the same, predictable quadrant(broader market gains from deregulation, buy the dip on foolish media headlines, earnings boost from tax reform, outsized merger arb gains because of unfounded fear of regulatory risk, strengthening USD, etc), and YOUR interpretation of the data is he's racist(irrelevant), he's stupid(clearly he is not, at least in terms of his capacity to get things done), he's being friends with our enemies!(clearly hyperbole), then, oh boy... Focusing on all the wrong things, getting emotional, and extracting useless info from data that has a wealth of useful info... All signs of an impairment/thinking problem/inability to process information in a productive manner.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: LC on June 13, 2018, 11:30:41 AM
he's cozy with Russia/North Korea!!(again, looking to smooth over relationships that were previously sour! the horrors!).

This one I'll never understand.  Both of these are nuclear powers.  Nothing good can come from being unnecessarily adversarial. 


Smart to cozy up to dictators, agreed. Worked well for Japan and Italy in the 30s.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: rkbabang on June 13, 2018, 11:34:30 AM
he's cozy with Russia/North Korea!!(again, looking to smooth over relationships that were previously sour! the horrors!).

This one I'll never understand.  Both of these are nuclear powers.  Nothing good can come from being unnecessarily adversarial. 


Smart to cozy up to dictators, agreed. Worked well for Japan and Italy in the 30s.

So you read not being "unnecessarily adversarial" as "we should join forces with them and try to take over the world"?
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: Gregmal on June 13, 2018, 11:38:27 AM
he's cozy with Russia/North Korea!!(again, looking to smooth over relationships that were previously sour! the horrors!).

This one I'll never understand.  Both of these are nuclear powers.  Nothing good can come from being unnecessarily adversarial. 


Smart to cozy up to dictators, agreed. Worked well for Japan and Italy in the 30s.

So you read not being "unnecessarily adversarial" as "we should join forces with them and try to take over the world"?

Exactly. Typical hyperbole that embodies these simplistic knee jerk responses. I also missed the part where Trump pledged unbridled allegiance to Russia and North Korea over our allies(wait, he did make an insulting comment!) if we even had to take sides... BUT it does fit the big, bad, evil Trump narrative, grouping him with those countries...sooooo
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: LC on June 13, 2018, 01:57:31 PM
Slippery slope. Although frankly my best guess at Trump's motivation is to do what is best for Trump, not what is best for the USA.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: rkbabang on June 13, 2018, 03:30:04 PM
Slippery slope. Although frankly my best guess at Trump's motivation is to do what is best for Trump, not what is best for the USA.

I care less about what motivates someone than that they do the right thing.  This is why I prefer capitalism which works even though people are motivated by greed, rather than have socialism which doesn’t work even though people are motivated by what the s good for society.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: doc75 on June 13, 2018, 03:33:07 PM
Typical hyperbole that embodies these simplistic knee jerk responses.

It's funny you're commenting on people's hyperbolic, simplistic, knee jerk responses to your president's hyperbolic, simplistic, knee jerk responses.  Speaking of which:

"Before taking office people were assuming that we were going to War with North Korea. President Obama said that North Korea was our biggest and most dangerous problem. No longer - sleep well tonight!"

Done and done.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: Spekulatius on June 13, 2018, 04:28:00 PM
For those still pumping Trudeau:

http://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/bonokoski-shocker-resurfaced-editorial-slams-justin-trudeau-as-a-groper

So perfect all these liberals...

Cardboard

Pffft. Trump would brag about this and nobody would care any more.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: Cigarbutt on June 13, 2018, 04:41:35 PM
"Being a pig, or a shitty person has little correlation to the success in your profession"
Quote

Thanks for the perspective.
But my experience has been different concerning the above statement.
Trying to reconcile opposing views, recently learned from:
https://www.amazon.com/Soul-America-Battle-Better-Angels/dp/0399589813

The work has a mystic tone and is tainted by derangement but, as much as business-friendly policies should be applauded, I submit that this is indeed a slippery slope.

This is a battle for our better angels.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: Spekulatius on June 13, 2018, 04:48:56 PM
Having a meeting with Kim by itself is not bad  thing, but I think Trump needlessly gave up ground without getting anything in return. There was not even one statement that NK would scale back or abandon his nuclear ambition.

1) Trump never brought up human rights, even though NK may her the worst record in the world. This includes incarcerating and killing US citizens.

2) He needlessly indicated stopping the “war games “. This was not expected and apparently not coordinated with the rest of his staff, the Pentagon or thr South Koreans. Also note that “war games” is the term that NK propaganda uses to label the South Korean and Us joint maneouvers. So he threw his South Korean partners under the bus. Note that the South Korean army is quite capable and a strong ally to the US. They fought long and hard with the US army in Vietnam, with a significant presence and lost 5000 soldiers there.

3) The whole meeting was also designed to play into China’s hand. Note that Kim came in Chinese airplane to the meeting , indicating that China has his back. Trump showed the opposite to his sOuth Korean allies, without any good reason.


The above market the meeting a failure, IMO. Nothing mortal or anything that could not be reversed, but totally unnecessary and apparently just because  Trump trust nothing else but his gut instinct.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: EliG on June 13, 2018, 05:39:19 PM
Trump's presser in Singapore:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2UpbO9WQjo

Quote:

"Honestly, I think he [Kim] is gonna do these things. I may be wrong ... I may stand before you in six months and say "Hey... I was wrong" (I don't know that I'll ever admit that ... I'll find some kind of an excuse)."

Don't believe he said that? Watch the clip.

Imagine Obama joking like that about Iran deal. Trump supporters would pop a vein. Fox News would be apoplectic for weeks.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: doc75 on June 13, 2018, 06:06:39 PM
Trump's presser in Singapore:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2UpbO9WQjo

Quote:

"Honestly, I think he [Kim] is gonna do these things. I may be wrong ... I may stand before you in six months and say "Hey... I was wrong" (I don't know that I'll ever admit that ... I'll find some kind of an excuse)."

Don't believe he said that? Watch the clip.

Imagine Obama joking like that about Iran deal. Trump supporters would pop a vein. Fox News would be apoplectic for weeks.

Interesting.  I'm no Trump supporter, but my personal take on this is actually positive, in the sense that it's fairly honest and shows some humility -- not so common amidst his usual egocentric rants.

I'm a bit surprised we haven't heard any further details about his Trudeau tirade -- what in particular set him off, why they felt stabbed in the back etc.   I read an article in the Canadian press that said Trudeau and Trump had a good bilateral meeting, with Trump even waving off the importance of the NAFTA sunset clause  (to the surprise of his people). If this is indeed the case, then it does seem pretty daft of Trudeau to not know that he should keep quiet about tariffs and NAFTA until after the NK summit, even if he wasn't asked directly to do so. It's not difficult to say "We had positive meetings and talks will continue after the Singapore summit; we wish President Trump the best in his efforts.".

I still think Trump's tweets were ridiculous, but Trudeau may have really dropped the political football here.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: Cardboard on June 13, 2018, 07:00:56 PM
I find interesting the continued comparison to the Iran deal.

For those who do not see the difference: Iran does not have a bomb, nor does it have ICBM's.

North Korea does and even has the hydrogen bomb. I would say that 80 to 90% of the development of ICBM's and hydrogen bomb was done under Obama's watch while he kept pushing this under the rug and keeping us uninformed. It sounded like it was years away.

Seriously do you believe that they did 100% of that work since Trump was elected and just over 1 year after inauguration it was all operational?

Under the Iran deal, there is a 10 year sunset clause and after that Iran can pretty much do all it wants and get the bomb. There is also nowhere near as much verification being done today to certify that they are not working on it. And they received $400 some billions that were heldback due to their bad behaviour.

So the Iran deal is another kick the can down the road type of deal: only good for 10 years or down to 7 now with people that have vendettas lasting for 100's of years.

It should have been a "preventative" deal while all it is, is a 10 year delay with all the nasty consequences coming after.

On North Korea, the consequences are already here. And I would say that they are nowhere near as bad as Iran since it is not a fanatical religious group holding these weapons but, a group wanting to retain their power at home.

So this one is a "clean the mess" after previous administrations really screwed up, ignored it, whatever. The tentative deal seems to be less threats on both sides, less sanctions, North Korea will denuclearize but, if they don't, patience won't be there... It was just the first meeting of many to come to determine how this will work and now some already interpret all details and piss on it. Wow!

Cardboard
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: LC on June 13, 2018, 07:45:56 PM
I care less about what motivates someone than that they do the right thing.
Process vs. Outcome
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: 20ppy on June 13, 2018, 08:29:00 PM
What is this thread again? Another bout of Hillary didn't win?  :'(

If the Democrats had organized this meeting with the exact same end result, the media and those in this thread would have called this the greatest peaceful diplomatic effort ever.

And trying to reach peace with North Korea and Russia is not a bad idea IMO.

If another republican president were to organize a meeting people would have said it's the greatest peaceful diplomatic effort ever. This is Trump.

Reaching peaceful agreements with either of those nations should be a good idea but people don't trust him.
This isn't straight up republicans versus democrats. This is one guy that very few people in the world trust working with arguably the 2 most dangerous nations in the world and very few trust his motives.

I thought at this point something like that should be crystal clear.
+1
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: doc75 on June 13, 2018, 08:33:13 PM

Seriously do you believe that they did 100% of that work since Trump was elected and just over 1 year after inauguration it was all operational?

Is anybody making this claim?

As for Obama keeping people in the dark:  My understanding is that analysts had been underestimating NK's nuclear capacity for quite some time. The regime claimed they had an H-bomb and missiles that could hit the US back in 2015.  Experts doubted the claims at the time but kept being surprised at the pace with which NK was progressing, despite knowing they were bringing in expert help from outside.

Interesting article on that point:  http://time.com/5128398/the-missile-factory/
 
Is there any evidence that the previous administration was actively trying to hold the truth back from the American public? (edit: on this matter!  not on the GSEs!)



Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: rb on June 13, 2018, 09:13:55 PM
I find interesting the continued comparison to the Iran deal.

For those who do not see the difference: Iran does not have a bomb, nor does it have ICBM's.

North Korea does and even has the hydrogen bomb. I would say that 80 to 90% of the development of ICBM's and hydrogen bomb was done under Obama's watch while he kept pushing this under the rug and keeping us uninformed. It sounded like it was years away.

Seriously do you believe that they did 100% of that work since Trump was elected and just over 1 year after inauguration it was all operational?

Under the Iran deal, there is a 10 year sunset clause and after that Iran can pretty much do all it wants and get the bomb. There is also nowhere near as much verification being done today to certify that they are not working on it. And they received $400 some billions that were heldback due to their bad behaviour.

So the Iran deal is another kick the can down the road type of deal: only good for 10 years or down to 7 now with people that have vendettas lasting for 100's of years.

It should have been a "preventative" deal while all it is, is a 10 year delay with all the nasty consequences coming after.

On North Korea, the consequences are already here. And I would say that they are nowhere near as bad as Iran since it is not a fanatical religious group holding these weapons but, a group wanting to retain their power at home.

So this one is a "clean the mess" after previous administrations really screwed up, ignored it, whatever. The tentative deal seems to be less threats on both sides, less sanctions, North Korea will denuclearize but, if they don't, patience won't be there... It was just the first meeting of many to come to determine how this will work and now some already interpret all details and piss on it. Wow!

Cardboard
Here's the thing, when making these deals you don't give anything without getting something in return.

Trump, the self styled greatest deal maker the world has ever seen, gave North Korea an equal summit between nuclear powers - something they have wanted for a looong time. He also gave them suspension of military exercises, rhetoric matching their propaganda, and an idea of pulling troops from Korean peninsula. The North Koreans gave an empty promise that they'll work toward de-nuclearisation. An empty promise they gave countless times before.

If you want to compare this to the Iran deal. It would be like Obama held a love fest with Ayatolla Khomeini where he pinky swore that he will work towards de-neuclearisation. In return Obama agreed to suspend military aid to Israel and look to discontinue military cooperation with Israel in the future (do you have any idea how much all that costs?).

If that happened there would be no more Fox News because all of their brains would have exploded all over the windows at 1211 Avenue of the Americas.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: rb on June 13, 2018, 10:01:50 PM
Rubbing Canada, or Germany, and whatever ally country the wrong way isn't the end of the world. Whereas working to turn long time enemies and threats into at least neutralized parties, or god forbid even quasi allies, I don't see how this is a bad thing. For all the "change" people whine about wanting, and dissatisfaction with the good ole boys club inherent within the political system both domestically and globally among the G7, its hilarious to me how much bitching and moaning there is about anyone looking to shake things up.
Gregmal, do this for me, though from what you say it may be an enlightening experiment for you as well. Next time you meet with your best friend, punch him in the face.

Then when he will inevitably ask "What the fuck man!" Tell him: Don't worry, I'm just rubbing you the wrong way, roughing you up a bit. You know I'm trying to shake things up. Then carry on to your next best friend and so on.  After a while please report back and let us know how it's going.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: Parsad on June 13, 2018, 10:58:34 PM
Rubbing Canada, or Germany, and whatever ally country the wrong way isn't the end of the world. Whereas working to turn long time enemies and threats into at least neutralized parties, or god forbid even quasi allies, I don't see how this is a bad thing. For all the "change" people whine about wanting, and dissatisfaction with the good ole boys club inherent within the political system both domestically and globally among the G7, its hilarious to me how much bitching and moaning there is about anyone looking to shake things up.
Gregmal, do this for me, though from what you say it may be an enlightening experiment for you as well. Next time you meet with your best friend, punch him in the face.

Then when he will inevitably ask "What the fuck man!" Tell him: Don't worry, I'm just rubbing you the wrong way, roughing you up a bit. You know I'm trying to shake things up. Then carry on to your next best friend and so on.  After a while please report back and let us know how it's going.

+1!  Hilarious! 

Forget Canada, because the truth is no one really gives two shits about us unless they need money, resources or peacekeepers, but can you imagine if a Democratic president treated Great Britain the way Trump treated Trudeau...Fox reporter's veins would be popping all over their foreheads!  And I get it...it's all posturing with Trump and to keep everyone guessing until they possibly just give in on any negotiations...but the end goal could certainly be reached other ways.  The question Americans have a hard time answering is that are the long-term side-effects and fallout from Trump's style worth the long-term outcome.  And that will take many, many years to answer! 

So far, Trump supporters are willing to ignore a shitload of issues...including blatant lies and hypocrisy to the public, corruption, conflicts of interest, lack of qualifications of staff, setting back race relations by 40 years, any sense of decorum or respect of the office, and pretty much ignorance of every one of the ten commandments.  What example is that for those watching today and the next generation who will one day lead?  Cheers!
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: Cardboard on June 14, 2018, 12:47:30 AM
Since when is Fox News' reaction the absolute way to look at things?

Seen that multiple times in that thread. How many veins are they popping on MSNBC right now?

And oh yes again the race card.  ::)

How many related violent demonstrations have you seen lately? How many cases of hatred related violence?

I have not run statistics on it but, it appears to have come way down since the last few years of the last Obama term.

But yeah Trump is a racist and I assume in some people mind that we are too if we support anything that he does.

Kind of interesting really. The white guy has a fight with Trudeau or another white guy, then flies on the other side of the planet to meet and seek peace/disarmament with an Asian guy. Finest example of racism that I have ever seen.

Cardboard
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: meiroy on June 14, 2018, 04:51:18 AM
I find interesting the continued comparison to the Iran deal.

For those who do not see the difference: Iran does not have a bomb, nor does it have ICBM's.

North Korea does and even has the hydrogen bomb. I would say that 80 to 90% of the development of ICBM's and hydrogen bomb was done under Obama's watch while he kept pushing this under the rug and keeping us uninformed. It sounded like it was years away.

Seriously do you believe that they did 100% of that work since Trump was elected and just over 1 year after inauguration it was all operational?

Under the Iran deal, there is a 10 year sunset clause and after that Iran can pretty much do all it wants and get the bomb. There is also nowhere near as much verification being done today to certify that they are not working on it. And they received $400 some billions that were heldback due to their bad behaviour.

So the Iran deal is another kick the can down the road type of deal: only good for 10 years or down to 7 now with people that have vendettas lasting for 100's of years.

It should have been a "preventative" deal while all it is, is a 10 year delay with all the nasty consequences coming after.

On North Korea, the consequences are already here. And I would say that they are nowhere near as bad as Iran since it is not a fanatical religious group holding these weapons but, a group wanting to retain their power at home.

So this one is a "clean the mess" after previous administrations really screwed up, ignored it, whatever. The tentative deal seems to be less threats on both sides, less sanctions, North Korea will denuclearize but, if they don't, patience won't be there... It was just the first meeting of many to come to determine how this will work and now some already interpret all details and piss on it. Wow!

Cardboard

The issue with "Iran" (they actually changed the country's name a long time ago)  is that it has a certain mindset, leading it to initiate various proxy wars in that area and support them financially.   The only way it would stop is if the economic situation there gets so bad that people would be willing to take the risk and change the regime. 

Of course, North Korea and Iran are linked when it comes to the nukes.  NK has provided Iran with info and support, and still does.

The recent individual sanctions, especially for that circle close to the ruling leader is genius.  Putin, for example, wouldn't care that much about sanctions on Russia, unless people starve.  But he will notice when all those who support him do get hit. Same for Iran.

The Europeans are a bunch of hypocrite idiots that just make things worse.  If it was truly about western values, how come that for all these years they did not strongly condemn all those countries over there that abuse human rights and stop doing business with them? They mostly want the sanctions lifted so they can do business with Iran.   

The western world needs to wake up and adjust its globalization selectively and only cooperate and provide riches to those countries that share similar values.  Plenty of those countries will change their ways and the rest can go fok themselves.

Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: rkbabang on June 14, 2018, 05:27:24 AM
If you want to compare this to the Iran deal. It would be like Obama held a love fest with Ayatolla Khomeini where he pinky swore that he will work towards de-neuclearisation. In return Obama agreed to suspend military aid to Israel and look to discontinue military cooperation with Israel in the future (do you have any idea how much all that costs?).

If that happened there would be no more Fox News because all of their brains would have exploded all over the windows at 1211 Avenue of the Americas.

I don't care about Fox news, but I'd support suspension of military aid to Israel even if we don't get anything from anyone in return.  I'd have praised Obama for that.

Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: meiroy on June 14, 2018, 05:51:27 AM
If you want to compare this to the Iran deal. It would be like Obama held a love fest with Ayatolla Khomeini where he pinky swore that he will work towards de-neuclearisation. In return Obama agreed to suspend military aid to Israel and look to discontinue military cooperation with Israel in the future (do you have any idea how much all that costs?).

If that happened there would be no more Fox News because all of their brains would have exploded all over the windows at 1211 Avenue of the Americas.

I don't care about Fox news, but I'd support suspension of military aid to Israel even if we don't get anything from anyone in return.  I'd have praised Obama for that.

The obsession that people/countries have with Israel is part of the reason why these Iranian/Korean/Syrian regimes still exist.  These dictators go the UN and propose to condemn Israel.  They get full support including of the righteous European, and then they go back to their own people and say "See! We are good, Israel bad! Bad Israel Bad!". They then brainwash their own people and continue to oppress and rape.  Even NK continuously trash Israel. BTW, in Syria, so far there are over 300,000 dead and countless injured and no nuke was used.  That's more than the total that died in Japan.  But hey, Israel! Bad Israel!
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: rkbabang on June 14, 2018, 05:53:05 AM
If you want to compare this to the Iran deal. It would be like Obama held a love fest with Ayatolla Khomeini where he pinky swore that he will work towards de-neuclearisation. In return Obama agreed to suspend military aid to Israel and look to discontinue military cooperation with Israel in the future (do you have any idea how much all that costs?).

If that happened there would be no more Fox News because all of their brains would have exploded all over the windows at 1211 Avenue of the Americas.

I don't care about Fox news, but I'd support suspension of military aid to Israel even if we don't get anything from anyone in return.  I'd have praised Obama for that.

The obsession that people/countries have with Israel is part of the reason why these Iranian/Korean/Syrian regimes still exist.  These dictators go the UN and propose to condemn Israel.  They get full support including of the righteous European, and then they go back to their own people and say "See! We are good, Israel bad! Bad Israel Bad!". They then brainwash their own people and continue to oppress and rape.   BTW, in Syria, so far there are over 300,000 dead and countless injured and no nuke was used.  That's more than the total that died in Japan.  But hey, Israel! Bad Israel!


Let me rephrase that.  I'd support elimination of military aid to all countries including Israel.  It isn't an Israel bad thing.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: meiroy on June 14, 2018, 06:06:31 AM
If you want to compare this to the Iran deal. It would be like Obama held a love fest with Ayatolla Khomeini where he pinky swore that he will work towards de-neuclearisation. In return Obama agreed to suspend military aid to Israel and look to discontinue military cooperation with Israel in the future (do you have any idea how much all that costs?).

If that happened there would be no more Fox News because all of their brains would have exploded all over the windows at 1211 Avenue of the Americas.

I don't care about Fox news, but I'd support suspension of military aid to Israel even if we don't get anything from anyone in return.  I'd have praised Obama for that.

The obsession that people/countries have with Israel is part of the reason why these Iranian/Korean/Syrian regimes still exist.  These dictators go the UN and propose to condemn Israel.  They get full support including of the righteous European, and then they go back to their own people and say "See! We are good, Israel bad! Bad Israel Bad!". They then brainwash their own people and continue to oppress and rape.   BTW, in Syria, so far there are over 300,000 dead and countless injured and no nuke was used.  That's more than the total that died in Japan.  But hey, Israel! Bad Israel!


Let me rephrase that.  I'd support elimination of military aid to all countries including Israel.  It isn't an Israel bad thing.

Fair enough.

Of course, this aid is mostly a subsidy to U.S. defense contractors, like the subsidy for farmers. (which, I guess, plenty would be happy to see that eliminated as well.)
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: John Hjorth on June 14, 2018, 08:00:03 AM
Let’s not post anything on this board that would prevent us from having a nice beer together , if we would meet face to face. The topic isn‘t worth the aggravation, imo.

+1 - To me, actually the most important post in this topic so far. [And admitted, some times I'm not too good myself.]
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: Jurgis on June 14, 2018, 08:35:01 AM
Let’s not post anything on this board that would prevent us from having a nice beer together , if we would meet face to face. The topic isn‘t worth the aggravation, imo.

It's way beyond that point for quite some time already.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: John Hjorth on June 14, 2018, 08:44:26 AM
Let’s not post anything on this board that would prevent us from having a nice beer together , if we would meet face to face. The topic isn‘t worth the aggravation, imo.

It's way beyond that point for quite some time already.

You're not directly involved in this, Jurgis, [ ; - ) ] Your personal strength in these kind of discussions here on CoBF is, that you have lived your life so far under two very different societal systems. Please, - at least - give it a chance. [ : - ) ]
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: rkbabang on June 14, 2018, 09:15:03 AM
Let’s not post anything on this board that would prevent us from having a nice beer together , if we would meet face to face. The topic isn‘t worth the aggravation, imo.

It's way beyond that point for quite some time already.

Nonsense.  It's all in good fun.  A little heated debating over the internet shouldn't prevent anyone from being friendly over a brew in person. It's like the car analogy.  When you are driving and someone cuts you off you get angry and (especially if you are from MA) yell and make rude gestures with your hands.  But if that same person had bumped into you while walking on the street or in the grocery store you'd say excuse me, I'm sorry, and laugh about it.  Being face to face makes all the difference.  Of course, however, if you are the type of person who regularly resorts to fisticuffs over in-person political discussions then I would rather not meet you.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: John Hjorth on June 14, 2018, 09:33:52 AM
Let’s not post anything on this board that would prevent us from having a nice beer together , if we would meet face to face. The topic isn‘t worth the aggravation, imo.

It's way beyond that point for quite some time already.

Nonsense.  It's all in good fun.  A little heated debating over the internet shouldn't prevent anyone from being friendly over a brew in person. It's like the car analogy.  When you are driving and someone cuts you off you get angry and (especially if you are from MA) yell and make rude gestures with your hands.  But if that same person had bumped into you while walking on the street or in the grocery store you'd say excuse me, I'm sorry, and laugh about it.  Being face to face makes all the difference.  Of course, however, if you are the type of person who regularly resorts to fisticuffs over in-person political discussions then I would rather not meet you.

rkbabang, perfect way [to try] to derail this discussion going on in this topic, from its theme. I'm pretty sure Jurgis won't take the bait, though. - As always - time will tell!
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: rb on June 14, 2018, 09:37:28 AM
Gotta love a little Massachusetts shiv  ;D
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: doughishere on June 14, 2018, 10:23:12 AM
Hey, Cardboard. Or should i say comrade?

You should make that pic in the middle of the article your profile pic.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/trump-salutes-north-korean-general
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: rkbabang on June 14, 2018, 05:20:08 PM
Let’s not post anything on this board that would prevent us from having a nice beer together , if we would meet face to face. The topic isn‘t worth the aggravation, imo.

It's way beyond that point for quite some time already.

Nonsense.  It's all in good fun.  A little heated debating over the internet shouldn't prevent anyone from being friendly over a brew in person. It's like the car analogy.  When you are driving and someone cuts you off you get angry and (especially if you are from MA) yell and make rude gestures with your hands.  But if that same person had bumped into you while walking on the street or in the grocery store you'd say excuse me, I'm sorry, and laugh about it.  Being face to face makes all the difference.  Of course, however, if you are the type of person who regularly resorts to fisticuffs over in-person political discussions then I would rather not meet you.

rkbabang, perfect way [to try] to derail this discussion going on in this topic, from its theme. I'm pretty sure Jurgis won't take the bait, though. - As always - time will tell!

I originally from MA as well (Masshole born and raised) so I can make Mass jokes.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: rb on June 14, 2018, 07:16:51 PM
John, I think there's a geographical issue here, with you being so far away while I'm closer to MA. Every person I've met from MA has a broad and deep repertoire of obscenities and they're damn proud of that fact. As a fellow profane person I can appreciate that. RESPECT!
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: John Hjorth on June 15, 2018, 11:24:32 AM
It seems that I was the guy derailing this topic! Thanks for elaborations, gents.
Title: Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
Post by: rkbabang on June 15, 2018, 12:23:13 PM
It seems that I was the guy derailing this topic! Thanks for elaborations, gents.

No problem.  Different cultures have in-jokes that can go over the heads of outsiders.  I expected Jurgis to get a chuckle out of that comment which you highlighted not to be offended by it.