Author Topic: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!  (Read 7565 times)

Spekulatius

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Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2018, 04:48:56 PM »
Having a meeting with Kim by itself is not bad  thing, but I think Trump needlessly gave up ground without getting anything in return. There was not even one statement that NK would scale back or abandon his nuclear ambition.

1) Trump never brought up human rights, even though NK may her the worst record in the world. This includes incarcerating and killing US citizens.

2) He needlessly indicated stopping the “war games “. This was not expected and apparently not coordinated with the rest of his staff, the Pentagon or thr South Koreans. Also note that “war games” is the term that NK propaganda uses to label the South Korean and Us joint maneouvers. So he threw his South Korean partners under the bus. Note that the South Korean army is quite capable and a strong ally to the US. They fought long and hard with the US army in Vietnam, with a significant presence and lost 5000 soldiers there.

3) The whole meeting was also designed to play into China’s hand. Note that Kim came in Chinese airplane to the meeting , indicating that China has his back. Trump showed the opposite to his sOuth Korean allies, without any good reason.


The above market the meeting a failure, IMO. Nothing mortal or anything that could not be reversed, but totally unnecessary and apparently just because  Trump trust nothing else but his gut instinct.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 06:00:40 AM by Spekulatius »
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EliG

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Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2018, 05:39:19 PM »
Trump's presser in Singapore:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2UpbO9WQjo

Quote:

"Honestly, I think he [Kim] is gonna do these things. I may be wrong ... I may stand before you in six months and say "Hey... I was wrong" (I don't know that I'll ever admit that ... I'll find some kind of an excuse)."

Don't believe he said that? Watch the clip.

Imagine Obama joking like that about Iran deal. Trump supporters would pop a vein. Fox News would be apoplectic for weeks.

doc75

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Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
« Reply #52 on: June 13, 2018, 06:06:39 PM »
Trump's presser in Singapore:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2UpbO9WQjo

Quote:

"Honestly, I think he [Kim] is gonna do these things. I may be wrong ... I may stand before you in six months and say "Hey... I was wrong" (I don't know that I'll ever admit that ... I'll find some kind of an excuse)."

Don't believe he said that? Watch the clip.

Imagine Obama joking like that about Iran deal. Trump supporters would pop a vein. Fox News would be apoplectic for weeks.

Interesting.  I'm no Trump supporter, but my personal take on this is actually positive, in the sense that it's fairly honest and shows some humility -- not so common amidst his usual egocentric rants.

I'm a bit surprised we haven't heard any further details about his Trudeau tirade -- what in particular set him off, why they felt stabbed in the back etc.   I read an article in the Canadian press that said Trudeau and Trump had a good bilateral meeting, with Trump even waving off the importance of the NAFTA sunset clause  (to the surprise of his people). If this is indeed the case, then it does seem pretty daft of Trudeau to not know that he should keep quiet about tariffs and NAFTA until after the NK summit, even if he wasn't asked directly to do so. It's not difficult to say "We had positive meetings and talks will continue after the Singapore summit; we wish President Trump the best in his efforts.".

I still think Trump's tweets were ridiculous, but Trudeau may have really dropped the political football here.

Cardboard

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Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
« Reply #53 on: June 13, 2018, 07:00:56 PM »
I find interesting the continued comparison to the Iran deal.

For those who do not see the difference: Iran does not have a bomb, nor does it have ICBM's.

North Korea does and even has the hydrogen bomb. I would say that 80 to 90% of the development of ICBM's and hydrogen bomb was done under Obama's watch while he kept pushing this under the rug and keeping us uninformed. It sounded like it was years away.

Seriously do you believe that they did 100% of that work since Trump was elected and just over 1 year after inauguration it was all operational?

Under the Iran deal, there is a 10 year sunset clause and after that Iran can pretty much do all it wants and get the bomb. There is also nowhere near as much verification being done today to certify that they are not working on it. And they received $400 some billions that were heldback due to their bad behaviour.

So the Iran deal is another kick the can down the road type of deal: only good for 10 years or down to 7 now with people that have vendettas lasting for 100's of years.

It should have been a "preventative" deal while all it is, is a 10 year delay with all the nasty consequences coming after.

On North Korea, the consequences are already here. And I would say that they are nowhere near as bad as Iran since it is not a fanatical religious group holding these weapons but, a group wanting to retain their power at home.

So this one is a "clean the mess" after previous administrations really screwed up, ignored it, whatever. The tentative deal seems to be less threats on both sides, less sanctions, North Korea will denuclearize but, if they don't, patience won't be there... It was just the first meeting of many to come to determine how this will work and now some already interpret all details and piss on it. Wow!

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LC

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Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
« Reply #54 on: June 13, 2018, 07:45:56 PM »
I care less about what motivates someone than that they do the right thing.
Process vs. Outcome
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20ppy

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Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
« Reply #55 on: June 13, 2018, 08:29:00 PM »
What is this thread again? Another bout of Hillary didn't win?  :'(

If the Democrats had organized this meeting with the exact same end result, the media and those in this thread would have called this the greatest peaceful diplomatic effort ever.

And trying to reach peace with North Korea and Russia is not a bad idea IMO.

If another republican president were to organize a meeting people would have said it's the greatest peaceful diplomatic effort ever. This is Trump.

Reaching peaceful agreements with either of those nations should be a good idea but people don't trust him.
This isn't straight up republicans versus democrats. This is one guy that very few people in the world trust working with arguably the 2 most dangerous nations in the world and very few trust his motives.

I thought at this point something like that should be crystal clear.
+1

doc75

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Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
« Reply #56 on: June 13, 2018, 08:33:13 PM »

Seriously do you believe that they did 100% of that work since Trump was elected and just over 1 year after inauguration it was all operational?

Is anybody making this claim?

As for Obama keeping people in the dark:  My understanding is that analysts had been underestimating NK's nuclear capacity for quite some time. The regime claimed they had an H-bomb and missiles that could hit the US back in 2015.  Experts doubted the claims at the time but kept being surprised at the pace with which NK was progressing, despite knowing they were bringing in expert help from outside.

Interesting article on that point:  http://time.com/5128398/the-missile-factory/
 
Is there any evidence that the previous administration was actively trying to hold the truth back from the American public? (edit: on this matter!  not on the GSEs!)



« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 08:35:37 PM by doc75 »

rb

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Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
« Reply #57 on: June 13, 2018, 09:13:55 PM »
I find interesting the continued comparison to the Iran deal.

For those who do not see the difference: Iran does not have a bomb, nor does it have ICBM's.

North Korea does and even has the hydrogen bomb. I would say that 80 to 90% of the development of ICBM's and hydrogen bomb was done under Obama's watch while he kept pushing this under the rug and keeping us uninformed. It sounded like it was years away.

Seriously do you believe that they did 100% of that work since Trump was elected and just over 1 year after inauguration it was all operational?

Under the Iran deal, there is a 10 year sunset clause and after that Iran can pretty much do all it wants and get the bomb. There is also nowhere near as much verification being done today to certify that they are not working on it. And they received $400 some billions that were heldback due to their bad behaviour.

So the Iran deal is another kick the can down the road type of deal: only good for 10 years or down to 7 now with people that have vendettas lasting for 100's of years.

It should have been a "preventative" deal while all it is, is a 10 year delay with all the nasty consequences coming after.

On North Korea, the consequences are already here. And I would say that they are nowhere near as bad as Iran since it is not a fanatical religious group holding these weapons but, a group wanting to retain their power at home.

So this one is a "clean the mess" after previous administrations really screwed up, ignored it, whatever. The tentative deal seems to be less threats on both sides, less sanctions, North Korea will denuclearize but, if they don't, patience won't be there... It was just the first meeting of many to come to determine how this will work and now some already interpret all details and piss on it. Wow!

Cardboard
Here's the thing, when making these deals you don't give anything without getting something in return.

Trump, the self styled greatest deal maker the world has ever seen, gave North Korea an equal summit between nuclear powers - something they have wanted for a looong time. He also gave them suspension of military exercises, rhetoric matching their propaganda, and an idea of pulling troops from Korean peninsula. The North Koreans gave an empty promise that they'll work toward de-nuclearisation. An empty promise they gave countless times before.

If you want to compare this to the Iran deal. It would be like Obama held a love fest with Ayatolla Khomeini where he pinky swore that he will work towards de-neuclearisation. In return Obama agreed to suspend military aid to Israel and look to discontinue military cooperation with Israel in the future (do you have any idea how much all that costs?).

If that happened there would be no more Fox News because all of their brains would have exploded all over the windows at 1211 Avenue of the Americas.

rb

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Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
« Reply #58 on: June 13, 2018, 10:01:50 PM »
Rubbing Canada, or Germany, and whatever ally country the wrong way isn't the end of the world. Whereas working to turn long time enemies and threats into at least neutralized parties, or god forbid even quasi allies, I don't see how this is a bad thing. For all the "change" people whine about wanting, and dissatisfaction with the good ole boys club inherent within the political system both domestically and globally among the G7, its hilarious to me how much bitching and moaning there is about anyone looking to shake things up.
Gregmal, do this for me, though from what you say it may be an enlightening experiment for you as well. Next time you meet with your best friend, punch him in the face.

Then when he will inevitably ask "What the fuck man!" Tell him: Don't worry, I'm just rubbing you the wrong way, roughing you up a bit. You know I'm trying to shake things up. Then carry on to your next best friend and so on.  After a while please report back and let us know how it's going.

Parsad

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Re: Hell Has Finally Frozen Over!
« Reply #59 on: June 13, 2018, 10:58:34 PM »
Rubbing Canada, or Germany, and whatever ally country the wrong way isn't the end of the world. Whereas working to turn long time enemies and threats into at least neutralized parties, or god forbid even quasi allies, I don't see how this is a bad thing. For all the "change" people whine about wanting, and dissatisfaction with the good ole boys club inherent within the political system both domestically and globally among the G7, its hilarious to me how much bitching and moaning there is about anyone looking to shake things up.
Gregmal, do this for me, though from what you say it may be an enlightening experiment for you as well. Next time you meet with your best friend, punch him in the face.

Then when he will inevitably ask "What the fuck man!" Tell him: Don't worry, I'm just rubbing you the wrong way, roughing you up a bit. You know I'm trying to shake things up. Then carry on to your next best friend and so on.  After a while please report back and let us know how it's going.

+1!  Hilarious! 

Forget Canada, because the truth is no one really gives two shits about us unless they need money, resources or peacekeepers, but can you imagine if a Democratic president treated Great Britain the way Trump treated Trudeau...Fox reporter's veins would be popping all over their foreheads!  And I get it...it's all posturing with Trump and to keep everyone guessing until they possibly just give in on any negotiations...but the end goal could certainly be reached other ways.  The question Americans have a hard time answering is that are the long-term side-effects and fallout from Trump's style worth the long-term outcome.  And that will take many, many years to answer! 

So far, Trump supporters are willing to ignore a shitload of issues...including blatant lies and hypocrisy to the public, corruption, conflicts of interest, lack of qualifications of staff, setting back race relations by 40 years, any sense of decorum or respect of the office, and pretty much ignorance of every one of the ten commandments.  What example is that for those watching today and the next generation who will one day lead?  Cheers!
No man is a failure who has friends!