Author Topic: Just in case anyone forgot  (Read 14165 times)

MrB

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #110 on: July 12, 2019, 02:02:37 PM »
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Secondly, every day people are saved and they are changed e.g. in China https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/christianity-china and Iran https://www.christianpost.com/news/iranian-intelligence-minister-concerned-with-growth-of-christianity-converts-summoned.html
My point was that I myself am probably not going to be the one to present some grand argument to have everyone go, "wow, god really doesn't exist!". Just like you (no offense) are probably not going to throw some biblical verse at me so that I say, "oh wow, look at the Joe 3:12 sentence, now I really believe god exists!"

Fair comment.

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Still want to hold your feet to the fire on this one. You have not answered the basic question, How did Jesus inspire these wars, bad behaviour or whatever you want to call it? Show me in the Bible what people are misinterpreting that calls them to the above action mentioned by you.

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My premise is that Jesus doesn't exist. So Jesus can't "inspire" anything himself, because if he ever lived he died long long ago. He wasn't existing in the middle age to whisper in some European warlord's ear and say "ever heard of a Crusade?"

All people have is an old story that has been indoctrinated in an entire population. It's used as justification.

I presented some biblical verse where the J-man himself calls for war and death and such. Can you not see how people can use these verses to justify war?

Here's another example, a "soldier of christ"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9w55rJ80oM

Now to be fair I didn't watch this video (was just searching around) but here's the slice of the description:

Jarrod would come to realize how God had used real warfare to prepare him for the spiritual warfare he has been called to fight Sunday after Sunday

I mean, just look at some of the comments for even further evidence of how people use Jesus to justify war:

Amen! 1-30-19 Thank you We are soldiers for the Kingdom.

Thank you for fighting and fighting the good fight. Praying Lord continues to grow us in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. Keep on keeping on until kingdom come!

"Fight the good fight of the faith" ( 1 Timothy 6:12), and, " wage the good warfare" (1 Timothy 1:18) " in the defense and confirmation of The Gospel" (Philippians 1:7) " as a Good Soldier of Jesus Christ"( 2 Timothy 2:3-4)!!🇺🇸🗽🦅🕊️☦️✝️⛪🕊️🙏👼😇⚔️


More to come...

LC I suggest you do watch that video. It’s a great description of the good fight Christians are called to. One thing the guy said you will find interesting, something along the lines that you as a Christian should keep your eyes on Jesus, He’s your Commander and you should follow His orders. Now that is not something I can recall as a direct quote from the Bible, but I would venture that it’s NOT unBiblical.
Biblically speaking on a high level there is a war and Christians are part of that war. “Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.” Also Jesus is not dead, He’s alive and His Spirit lives in me and because of that I live in Him and He in God. John 17 (this is Jesus praying) 20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.”

The overarching COMMAND Jesus gave the disciples is the Great Commission,Mat 28: 16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

So absolutely there is war on and we are soldiers in that war, but ultimately its against the principalities and powers, basically evil. HOWEVER, we are not called to the kind of action you generally refer to, which is why I ask again, where exactly did Jesus, let’s call him the Commander in Chief, call anyone to the kind of action you mention?

Importantly what you have to realise is that you’re on a side. You think you’re not, but you are. Hopefully you at least realise there are sides and where you stand, but what is a really desperate situation is where people don’t even realise they’re fighting somebody’s war. They don’t even realise that whilst in their own minds they’re captain of their own ship, they’re in fact just a pawn in someone else’s game. At least I know who my Master is, what I’m fighting for and what the battlefield looks like. To paraphrase that great video you linked: Lift up your eyes LC!

So back to my “dead” Commander in Chief. This is a great true story of Lee Strobel pretty much along the lines of what you’re saying. He was the legal editor for the Chicago Tribune and a passionate atheist that set out to prove his wife that she has fallen in with some crazy cult worshipping a dead man. He set out to factually prove that Jesus was not who he claimed to be. What he found changed his life https://youtu.be/rhe8KhSxWGo

At the end of the day, Christians are in a war and we do have a mission and we are zealous for the things of Christ. So with that said, congratulations I’ve just put a target on your back. You’ve just made it onto my prayer list! LOL


MrB

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #111 on: July 12, 2019, 02:33:14 PM »
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. One way to illustrate this would be to explain a Christian’s attitude to forgiveness. We’re forgiven not because we deserve it, but by GRACE.  Ephesians 2:8-9 (ESV) 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Also there is no sin from which we cannot be saved, except for blaspheming the Holy Spirit, but let’s put that aside for now.

Wrapping up here MrB - so on this one, first that is truly tragic about the Amish school shooting. I mean you read things like that and your heart just hurts. Now can you forgive that murderer? I don't know if I can. I don't know if anyone can. And I don't see how god killing his son forgives that murderer of his own responsibility. Let's accept that jesus died and "saved us all".

I don't want to be saved. People are responsible for their actions. If I were the parents of one of those murdered girls, I don't see how jesus dying absolves that man of his responsibility. And if I ever committed something to atrocious, I wouldn't want that responsibility lifted. To remove that responsibility lessens the value of all those children and the lives they lived, and the families that lost them. This idea of vicarious redemption (i.e. that we are all saved through jesus) is evil.

I appreciate the sentiment LC, but you’re wrong. This is not a foreign idea. We all have different roles in life. If I go out and murder your child, is it your job to avenge that murder? Is it not someone else role to bring justice to bear? If I wreck your car is it not someone else role to bring justice to bear and for me to afford you compensation, debt paid let’s move on? If I cannot replace your car would it be such a foreign idea that someone else replace your car in my stead? This is straight forward and logical.
Here you have a Guy,  you wrecked His car, you cannot pay and He says to you, LC you know I care enough about you that I don’t want to lose our relationship. I’ll pay for the car. What do you have to do? Say thank you and stop wrecking cars. Not that complicated up to this point right?

Now let’s assume for a moment you accepted the offer. What happens when someone comes along and accidentally scratches your car and tells you he is totally broke and do not have the means to pay? Are you going to have him thrown in debtor’s prison or go work for you until he paid it all back? Maybe you forgive him, because of how much you have been forgiven.

Only person that struggle with forgiveness is a person that never experienced underserved forgiveness.

Lastly, you misunderstand Biblical judgment and justice. That murderer if unforgiven will face God, because as He says “Rom 12: 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” Justice will be done and he will pay, it’s just not my job to affect that judgement. Can that murderer be forgiven though? Absolutely. Why? Because Jesus paid the price for that murderer and if he repents and puts his faith in Jesus then he is free.

Psalm 103:12 (ESV)
12 as far as the east is from the west,
    so far does he remove our transgressions from us.


Not that complicated it’s called GRACE...(and TRUTH)

LC

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #112 on: July 12, 2019, 07:04:45 PM »
lc, why do you feel that slavery is bad? Why do you condemn their version of morality if yours has no more insight than theirs? Do you feel that you're being a bigot?
I've made this point at least four times, so what is one more time? If everyone believed slavery was good, we would end up enslaving each other and spreading misery across human society. You simply don't acknowledge that an atheist can choose something aside from your own pre-conceived idea of what they "should" do.

I think "version" of morality does have more "insight" (not even sure what you mean by that, but let's keep it going) than someone who thinks slavery is OK, for the reason I mentioned above.

No I don't feel like a bigot. What does that have to do with anything?

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The atheist that jumps in front of the bus to save their child is irrational. They are simply following their evolutionary instincts. So much for the "free thinkers." I don't see how one can even dispute that. Do you think they're doing anything more than blindly following their instincts? The love for the child is simply a chemical reaction. Let's not act like it's something bigger. You have no evidence to support that claim.
Let's take it in the reverse order.

-First off, I always find it ironic when those are asking for evidence to support anything.
-Love is a chemical reaction but to say it is not "something bigger" is silly. If I save my son's life out because my chemicals cause me to "love" my son, and he goes on to cure cancer - well my "love" has led to something slightly bigger than just the chemical reactions in my brain.
-"Blindly following instinct" is nonsense. Does the father not realize the bus will probably kill him? Of course he does or he would not rush to save his son. Does the firefighter not realize he may die any day on the job? Of course he does or he would not wear PPE. Did Bonhoeffer not realize he may die? I'm sure he did. But just because a choice is made almost instantly, does not mean it is "blind".

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Many times people don't even know what is in their best interest. How is staying alive to spread one's DNA not in that best interest? "Living freely" is simply an emotional desire. It has nothing to do with reality. No one is really ever all that free anyway. We only think we are living freely because we see others who have shackles. Yet, we rarely see our own shackles.
I would say that to define someone's "best interest" is pretty subjective. Perhaps not fully subjective but the spectrum is huge. The rest of this I think is you pontificating  ;D

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LC

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #113 on: July 12, 2019, 07:21:12 PM »
Mr. B, I'm addressing your comments in reverse:

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If I go out and murder your child, is it your job to avenge that murder? Is it not someone else role to bring justice to bear? If I wreck your car is it not someone else role to bring justice to bear and for me to afford you compensation, debt paid let’s move on? If I cannot replace your car would it be such a foreign idea that someone else replace your car in my stead?
I'm not talking about giving justice, or vengeance, or debt. I'm talking about the responsibility and ownership of the action.
This quoting of CS Lewis may make it more clear: https://youtu.be/Mp9XIh-BPio?t=173

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So absolutely there is war on and we are soldiers in that war, but ultimately its against the principalities and powers, basically evil. HOWEVER, we are not called to the kind of action you generally refer to, which is why I ask again, where exactly did Jesus, let’s call him the Commander in Chief, call anyone to the kind of action you mention?
Sometimes I really do feel like I'm talking to a wall  ;D

But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’

I think I've already established that by Jesus' lofty standards, none of us are "fit" to interpret the bible. And so despite this, everyone tries anyway and follows their own interpretation of the bible. So can you really not see how someone can use lines of text like this as justification for murder?
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LC

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #114 on: July 12, 2019, 07:27:24 PM »
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Importantly what you have to realise is that you’re on a side. You think you’re not, but you are. Hopefully you at least realise there are sides and where you stand, but what is a really desperate situation is where people don’t even realise they’re fighting somebody’s war. They don’t even realise that whilst in their own minds they’re captain of their own ship, they’re in fact just a pawn in someone else’s game. At least I know who my Master is, what I’m fighting for and what the battlefield looks like. To paraphrase that great video you linked: Lift up your eyes LC!
Oh I am definitely on the side of the unbeliever. And I'll take a hellfire of damnation if that's what happens, rather than lie to myself and others. And you can tell your master that, next time you pray!  :P

And I'll just say that I have no master, real or imaginary, and I prefer it that way, and I wish the same for you too.

You say to lift up your eyes, I say to lift up your mind!  ::)
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stahleyp

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #115 on: July 13, 2019, 06:08:23 AM »
lc, why do you feel that slavery is bad? Why do you condemn their version of morality if yours has no more insight than theirs? Do you feel that you're being a bigot?
I've made this point at least four times, so what is one more time? If everyone believed slavery was good, we would end up enslaving each other and spreading misery across human society. You simply don't acknowledge that an atheist can choose something aside from your own pre-conceived idea of what they "should" do.

I think "version" of morality does have more "insight" (not even sure what you mean by that, but let's keep it going) than someone who thinks slavery is OK, for the reason I mentioned above.

No I don't feel like a bigot. What does that have to do with anything?

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The atheist that jumps in front of the bus to save their child is irrational. They are simply following their evolutionary instincts. So much for the "free thinkers." I don't see how one can even dispute that. Do you think they're doing anything more than blindly following their instincts? The love for the child is simply a chemical reaction. Let's not act like it's something bigger. You have no evidence to support that claim.
Let's take it in the reverse order.

-First off, I always find it ironic when those are asking for evidence to support anything.
-Love is a chemical reaction but to say it is not "something bigger" is silly. If I save my son's life out because my chemicals cause me to "love" my son, and he goes on to cure cancer - well my "love" has led to something slightly bigger than just the chemical reactions in my brain.
-"Blindly following instinct" is nonsense. Does the father not realize the bus will probably kill him? Of course he does or he would not rush to save his son. Does the firefighter not realize he may die any day on the job? Of course he does or he would not wear PPE. Did Bonhoeffer not realize he may die? I'm sure he did. But just because a choice is made almost instantly, does not mean it is "blind".

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Many times people don't even know what is in their best interest. How is staying alive to spread one's DNA not in that best interest? "Living freely" is simply an emotional desire. It has nothing to do with reality. No one is really ever all that free anyway. We only think we are living freely because we see others who have shackles. Yet, we rarely see our own shackles.
I would say that to define someone's "best interest" is pretty subjective. Perhaps not fully subjective but the spectrum is huge. The rest of this I think is you pontificating  ;D

lc, a bigot is someone who is intolerant of another's opinions. In the past, people felt slavery was okay. You are not okay with that and think your values are superior. How is this not bigotry? All morality is subjective after all. It's not fair to qualify it with "human misery" because that too is subjective.

You have no evidence that your values are superior. You only think they're superior based on things that you were taught - that human rights exist and the way your brain is wired. However, human rights don't exist since there is no higher power to give unalienable rights. And your brain is wired in a way that you have no control over - just like the slave owners. I fail to see why your values are superior?

It doesn't matter if "misery is spread across society" if the people who are not enslaved are better off. Evolution teaches us that the fittest survive, does it not? Let's say we enslaved 10% of the world's population and they did most of what we hate to do. 90% of the world would then be less miserable. Would you be in favor of slavery then?

With the choices happening instantly, yes they are blind choices. You are making these things bigger than what they are. The father is acting on instincts. He's not thinking things through. How is that not following your instincts blindly? He would realize that he could also have a new child and that his dna can live on but if he's dead, he cannot. Indeed the bus could kill the father and the child! Wisely, he would let the bus hit his child.

You're acting like human existence is more than what you claim it is. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. Well, I suppose you can if you like pretending or living a lie.

If we're just a bunch of animals following an illusion, that's certainly the case. You are lying to yourself whether you realize it or not. Are you trying to get to the truth of reality or do you just want to pretend?
Paul

LC

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #116 on: July 13, 2019, 10:58:19 AM »
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You have no evidence that your values are superior
Yes I do. If everyone enslaved each other, and everyone could potentially be enslaved, we would all be worse off. Do you disagree with this?

I've already mentioned multiple moral codes which are not subjective. The golden rule is one (would I want this done to me?). Extrapolation to society is another (would I want everyone to do this?). Comparison to absolute bad (does this get us closer/further from the most suffering for all?) is a third.

You do not accept these.

I suppose you do not accept these because they are created by humans? Well I have news for you, your bible was created by humans. And you cannot prove otherwise.

So when you say, "If we're just a bunch of animals following an illusion, that's certainly the case. You are lying to yourself whether you realize it or not. Are you trying to get to the truth of reality or do you just want to pretend?


I find it incredibly ironic. It is the religious who believe an illusion (the bible is divine), the religious who lie to themselves (their morality is divine), the religious who pretend to know more about reality than anyone else.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 11:00:24 AM by LC »
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Ross812

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #117 on: July 13, 2019, 12:44:39 PM »
You have no evidence that your values are superior. You only think they're superior based on things that you were taught - that human rights exist and the way your brain is wired. However, human rights don't exist since there is no higher power to give unalienable rights. And your brain is wired in a way that you have no control over - just like the slave owners. I fail to see why your values are superior?

It doesn't matter if "misery is spread across society" if the people who are not enslaved are better off. Evolution teaches us that the fittest survive, does it not? Let's say we enslaved 10% of the world's population and they did most of what we hate to do. 90% of the world would then be less miserable. Would you be in favor of slavery then?

With the choices happening instantly, yes they are blind choices. You are making these things bigger than what they are. The father is acting on instincts. He's not thinking things through. How is that not following your instincts blindly? He would realize that he could also have a new child and that his dna can live on but if he's dead, he cannot. Indeed the bus could kill the father and the child! Wisely, he would let the bus hit his child.

You're acting like human existence is more than what you claim it is. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. Well, I suppose you can if you like pretending or living a lie.

If we're just a bunch of animals following an illusion, that's certainly the case. You are lying to yourself whether you realize it or not. Are you trying to get to the truth of reality or do you just want to pretend?

Uh, you're gonna die on your cross justifying slavery? This highlights the whole problem with religion. No nuance when it comes to a damn rib, a great flood, being gay, abortion etc, but hey, slavery was ok back then and Jesus was just keeping up with the times. If jesus had said something like "God's children cannot own each other for they are owned by my father, and who among you can claim to own what is the possession of the almighty." So much suffering could have been prevented over the coarse of history as many slave owners where good God fearing Christians. So go ahead and argue slavery is ok and it is just morality based on nothing to support not owning others like livestock.

As technology brings us closer and governments can punish those out for their own self interst, the role of religion in society will die. The transformation has been occurring all around us in developed countries for a few decades now.
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stahleyp

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #118 on: July 13, 2019, 01:04:55 PM »
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You have no evidence that your values are superior
Yes I do. If everyone enslaved each other, and everyone could potentially be enslaved, we would all be worse off. Do you disagree with this?

I've already mentioned multiple moral codes which are not subjective. The golden rule is one (would I want this done to me?). Extrapolation to society is another (would I want everyone to do this?). Comparison to absolute bad (does this get us closer/further from the most suffering for all?) is a third.

You do not accept these.

I suppose you do not accept these because they are created by humans? Well I have news for you, your bible was created by humans. And you cannot prove otherwise.

So when you say, "If we're just a bunch of animals following an illusion, that's certainly the case. You are lying to yourself whether you realize it or not. Are you trying to get to the truth of reality or do you just want to pretend?


I find it incredibly ironic. It is the religious who believe an illusion (the bible is divine), the religious who lie to themselves (their morality is divine), the religious who pretend to know more about reality than anyone else.

So now you're picking and choosing what's objectively moral and subjectively moral?  ???

If there is nothing that goes beyond the self all morality is subjective since each of it just makes it up. All morality comes from the same source - evolutionary instincts -so it's unfair to say one is better than the other. Person A's brain is wired in a certain way and Person B's is wired differently. We have an illusion that ours is better but it's not. They might very well think the same!

The Bible was created by humans. I agree. People don't claim that God wrote the Bible but that it was inspired by God. The Bible is not divine. The Bible is a book. God is divine.

I do think morality comes from God. I cannot prove it. I will, however, say that if it doesn't come from God, it's silly to follow it when it's against our best interest (like saving one's child that's about to be hit by a bus).

There is no right and wrong except what we determine within ourselves. Therefore the acts that our "bigger than ourselves" aren't really bigger because we determine what they are (how big or small). We might think they're bigger but that's really just an illusion due to a heightened emotional state.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 01:36:51 PM by stahleyp »
Paul

stahleyp

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #119 on: July 13, 2019, 01:30:59 PM »
You have no evidence that your values are superior. You only think they're superior based on things that you were taught - that human rights exist and the way your brain is wired. However, human rights don't exist since there is no higher power to give unalienable rights. And your brain is wired in a way that you have no control over - just like the slave owners. I fail to see why your values are superior?

It doesn't matter if "misery is spread across society" if the people who are not enslaved are better off. Evolution teaches us that the fittest survive, does it not? Let's say we enslaved 10% of the world's population and they did most of what we hate to do. 90% of the world would then be less miserable. Would you be in favor of slavery then?

With the choices happening instantly, yes they are blind choices. You are making these things bigger than what they are. The father is acting on instincts. He's not thinking things through. How is that not following your instincts blindly? He would realize that he could also have a new child and that his dna can live on but if he's dead, he cannot. Indeed the bus could kill the father and the child! Wisely, he would let the bus hit his child.

You're acting like human existence is more than what you claim it is. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. Well, I suppose you can if you like pretending or living a lie.

If we're just a bunch of animals following an illusion, that's certainly the case. You are lying to yourself whether you realize it or not. Are you trying to get to the truth of reality or do you just want to pretend?

Uh, you're gonna die on your cross justifying slavery? This highlights the whole problem with religion. No nuance when it comes to a damn rib, a great flood, being gay, abortion etc, but hey, slavery was ok back then and Jesus was just keeping up with the times. If jesus had said something like "God's children cannot own each other for they are owned by my father, and who among you can claim to own what is the possession of the almighty." So much suffering could have been prevented over the coarse of history as many slave owners where good God fearing Christians. So go ahead and argue slavery is ok and it is just morality based on nothing to support not owning others like livestock.

As technology brings us closer and governments can punish those out for their own self interst, the role of religion in society will die. The transformation has been occurring all around us in developed countries for a few decades now.

No, I'm certainly not justifying slavery. As a believer, I believe in human rights (we silly believers believe in things without evidence you know).

I'm saying that it's bigoted to say that it's wrong if morality is subjective. If atheism is the correct worldview no one has any more insight into morality because there is no standard. Any "standard" is simply an illusion. The slave owners thought slavery was good. If I'm an atheist, what grounds do I have to say that their view is wrong and mine is right?

Besides, perhaps Jesus did say it but there is no record of it. Let's say that 10 years from now, there is a document uncovered (and we'll assume it's legit) and that Jesus condemns slavery. We'll say that it's a manuscript that dated earlier than the earliest we have now. Would you and lc become believers then?

Also as a fun aside and fun speculating outside of my wheelhouse (and pretty far out there), but there is something called the holographic principle, it's similar to us living in a hologram. Amazingly, many, many near death experiences talk about how that experience was "more real" than anything that they've experienced on earth. Which, one would expect to hear if we really are holograms. Now if someone who is more knowledgeable about string theory wants to correct my misunderstanding here, I'm happy to hear it.

Ross, by the way, what are your beliefs?
Paul