Author Topic: Just in case anyone forgot  (Read 9126 times)

LC

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #70 on: July 09, 2019, 12:39:12 PM »
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No you're insulting Catholicism which is a cult. They don't preach or follow the Bible in pretty much any way. They have persecuted true Christians all throughout history and are an abomination. If you want some perspective on this I would suggest the book "50 Years in the Church of Rome."
No Jesus = No Catholic Church

Tell me who these "True Christians" are. Are they related to the "true scotsman"?
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LC

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #71 on: July 09, 2019, 12:43:20 PM »
I don't follow your logic. Let's just take your first point and the first event mentioned in the source you cited. So how exactly did Jesus "inspire" the "Thirty Years War"??

https://www.history.com/topics/reformation/thirty-years-war

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The Thirty Years’ War was a 17th-century religious conflict fought primarily in central Europe. It remains one of the longest and most brutal wars in human history, with more than 8 million casualties resulting from military battles as well as from the famine and disease caused by the conflict. The war lasted from 1618 to 1648, starting as a battle among the Catholic and Protestant states that formed the Holy Roman Empire.

...

With Emperor Ferdinand II’s ascension to head of state of the Holy Roman Empire in 1619, religious conflict began to foment.

One of Ferdinand II’s first actions was to force citizens of the empire to adhere to Roman Catholicism, even though religious freedom had been granted as part of the Peace of Augsburg.

Is this not a religious war? Is this war not caused by hatred between Catholic and Protestant groups? Are those two groups not founded on Jesus?
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stahleyp

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #72 on: July 09, 2019, 12:47:31 PM »
No you're insulting Catholicism which is a cult. They don't preach or follow the Bible in pretty much any way. They have persecuted true Christians all throughout history and are an abomination. If you want some perspective on this I would suggest the book "50 Years in the Church of Rome."

According to your interpretation of the Bible....

The paper I linked earlier gave an interesting psychological and anthropological approach to religion. Small groups of people could keep each other honest and make sure each member contributed to the group because everyone knew each other and interacted. Once large groups of people started living together and roles diversified, it became impossible to interact with everyone and people could freeload off the group. The idea of an all seeing deity that punishes those who do not follow the mores of the group is incredibly effective in making sure each member contributes. Religion developed "costly rituals" to identify true adherents and make sure people couldn't just profess belief and free load. These costly rituals could be property sacrifice, time commitments, or self mutilation to show you were a true believer.

Over time, those groups with the strongest religions and strictest adherents had an advantage over those groups who did not work as well together leading to the spread of religion.

This doesn't really explain why the apostles died for a lie (after all they know whether or not the event happened) or why Saul changed his path.

But let's say you're right. Why believe in such things as human rights? Wouldn't society be much better off through a thoughtful eugenics program?
Paul

LC

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #73 on: July 09, 2019, 01:02:28 PM »
How would someone inspired to kill millions by a guy who said things like:

"Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Or

"43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,"


I think it tells you more about the person creating the havoc then the person they allegedly follow.

Perhaps they read the parable in Luke and decided to take matters into their own hands:
But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’

Or maybe they went into Matthew:
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"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Or perhaps John:
Quote
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."
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LC

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #74 on: July 09, 2019, 01:35:19 PM »
Hi MrB, this post is a response to yours...quoted the relevant items below:

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Incorrect. Something is true because it is an inherent fact, not because it is generally accepted as the truth. The sun did not revolve around the earth until it was generally accepted that the earth actually revolves around the sun. Simply put TRUTH is absolute, not relative.
I agree but I was not talking about what makes something true, I am talking about how people know/accept something is true. I tried to be very clear in my language here.

The earth rotates about the sun, but we did not know this until we tested and observed. You can say JESUS IS TRUTH, but this is no different than saying the universe is GEOCENTRIC. If it cannot be tested and subject to independent verification, it means nothing.
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So to say there is no evidence to contract the bible seems disingenuous. If it were "truth" then every word, sentence, story, phrase, would all be independently verifiable. This is simply not the case:
I’m happy to consider any evidence you can produce and I don’t mean it in a facetious way. Seriously.

Appreciate the honest effort, but I mean, the Bible says God made Eve out of a rib. Women did not originate from a rib. There is evidence which traces the evolution of homo sapiens, none of which involves the spontaneous creation of female humans from a rib.

I can go on but I mean, this is pretty basic stuff. Something about a whale eating Job I think is another obvious one, a dude and an Ark. The evidence contradicts the exodus story:

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many if not most of the places mentioned in the Exodus did not exist within the same chronological period as one another. Pithom (Per‐Atum/Tckenu) and Raamses (Per‐Ramesses), the two "treasure cities" claimed to have been built by the Hebrews, never existed at the same time. Pithom did not exist as a significant settlement before the 26th Dynasty. Prior to this, the settlement was known as Tckenu, and was still referred to as such in the Ptolemaic period. It was an obscure garrison town which mainly, if not exclusively, served as a waystation for Egyptian expeditions. Even in its enlarged Roman state, the town barely registered on either Egyptian or Greco–Roman accounts.[17] Per‐Ramesses, the Royal Residence of the Ramessides, was abandoned at the end of the New Kingdom, centuries earlier.[17]

Another example is the Exodus portrayal of Edom. Edom was not yet a nation. In fact, the region wasn't even inhabited yet. The place the Hebrews stop at wasn't even built until 800 BCE, as the earliest Iron Age settlements (copper mining camps) date to the 9th or 10th century BCE according to radiocarbon dating done by Thomas LevyWikipedia's W.svg (the previous estimates having been placed some 300 years later)[22] and the main excavated sites have been dated between the 8th and 6th centuries BCE. However, the latest the Exodus could have occurred and still be biblically accurate is in the 13th century BCE, meaning that if the radiocarbon dating is contested, the settlements would be estimated to be from the 12th or 13th century BCE, thus additionally slimming the "window of opportunity" for Exodus to have taken place.

Evidence of Egyptian history shows no sign of "plagues":

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All of the dates put forward by advocates of the historicity of Exodus fail to correspond to any period of national chaos or collapse in Egypt, as would clearly be expected by such a series of disasters.

Ussher's 1491 BCE date corresponds with a time of ambitious Egyptian expansion. The reign of Hatshepsut was stable, peaceful and saw extensive construction projects and trading missions; this is known from actual material remains as well as Egyptian records. Her successor, Thutmose III, took Egypt to its greatest imperial extent, forging an empire from the Euphrates to the 4th and possibly the 5th cataract. These are not the signs of a nation that, just a few years before, had lost its entire harvest, its drinkable water, its army and its sons. There is no archaeological evidence at all of mass death and impoverishment in the early New Kingdom period.

The same holds true for the period of Ramesses II. Although there were a few brief reigns after Merenptah, and what appears to be an attempt to interfere with the line of succession (the Chancellor Bey affair), there is no evidence of national catastrophe. Not long after, during the reign of Ramesses III, the state was still able to construct numerous massive monuments (such as Medinet Habu and the temple of Ramesses III within the Karnak complex) and mount effective military campaigns on both land and sea.

As I said, the stories in the Bible lack independently verifiable evidence. And the evidence we do have contradicts these stories.

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Firstly, the bible has logical and scientific inconsistencies on seemingly every other page.

Please name one.
Many folks have made lists. This is probably a good starting point:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_consistency_of_the_Bible

The study of inconsistencies in the Bible has a long history. In the 17th century, Spinoza considered the Bible to be, "...a book rich in contradictions."[38] In the 18th century, Thomas Paine in The Age of Reason compiled many of the Bible's self-contradictions. And in 1860, William Henry Burr produced a list of 144 self-contradictions in the Bible.[39]


Here's the mentioned Burr work:
https://archive.org/stream/SelfContradictionsOfTheBible/Self-Contradictions-Of-The-Bible_djvu.txt

And one example:

GOD IS SATISFIED WITH HIS WORKS.

And God saw everything that he had made, and behold it was very
good. (Gen. 1:31.)

GOD IS DISSATISFIED WITH HIS WORKS.

And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and
it grieved him at his heart. (Gen. 6:6.)


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Thirdly, if we followed the scriptural teachings to the letter (as we must, if it is "truth"), society would begin to look like the ultra-conservative religious groups, who are some of the most immoral and oppressive of all the faithful.
Incorrect. Jesus specifically condemned what you suggest

I see: you must be one of the "true Christians", and all those ultra-conservative Christian groups are the "false Christians".

Again, how do we know your interpretation is any better than these ultra-conservatives?

Your previous response to this question ("So ultimately God’s Spirit interprets for us. Without His Spirit I will “‘Keep on hearing, but (do) not understand; keep on seeing, but (do) not perceive.’” Isaiah 6:9 ")

This is white noise. Do you have "God's Spirit" or do the ultra-conservatives? Or do I? Who has God's Spirit and can interpret the Bible "correctly"? How can we tell?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 01:39:10 PM by LC »
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Ross812

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #75 on: July 09, 2019, 01:42:45 PM »
No you're insulting Catholicism which is a cult. They don't preach or follow the Bible in pretty much any way. They have persecuted true Christians all throughout history and are an abomination. If you want some perspective on this I would suggest the book "50 Years in the Church of Rome."

According to your interpretation of the Bible....

The paper I linked earlier gave an interesting psychological and anthropological approach to religion. Small groups of people could keep each other honest and make sure each member contributed to the group because everyone knew each other and interacted. Once large groups of people started living together and roles diversified, it became impossible to interact with everyone and people could freeload off the group. The idea of an all seeing deity that punishes those who do not follow the mores of the group is incredibly effective in making sure each member contributes. Religion developed "costly rituals" to identify true adherents and make sure people couldn't just profess belief and free load. These costly rituals could be property sacrifice, time commitments, or self mutilation to show you were a true believer.

Over time, those groups with the strongest religions and strictest adherents had an advantage over those groups who did not work as well together leading to the spread of religion.

This doesn't really explain why the apostles died for a lie (after all they know whether or not the event happened) or why Saul changed his path.

But let's say you're right. Why believe in such things as human rights? Wouldn't society be much better off through a thoughtful eugenics program?

The apostles died in something they believed in. I'm not saying Jesus or any of the religious leaders are trying to deceive people. I'm saying humans developed the concept of an all knowing wrathful god as a way to ensure individuals adhered to the mores of their group. The concept evolved thousands of years before the birth of Jesus. Jesus just pushed the evolution forward and created an even more powerful religion.

You should really read through the article I posted. It is quite interesting. The theory is not anti-religion or pro-atheism. It posits that humans could not have been nearly as successful as we have become without religion. It is a human innovation just as important as fire. 

 

 

 
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stahleyp

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #76 on: July 09, 2019, 01:49:47 PM »
How would someone inspired to kill millions by a guy who said things like:

"Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Or

"43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,"


I think it tells you more about the person creating the havoc then the person they allegedly follow.

Perhaps they read the parable in Luke and decided to take matters into their own hands:
But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’

Or maybe they went into Matthew:
Quote
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Or perhaps John:
Quote
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

For the first one, that one certainly seems to be conveying judgement. If the followers of Jesus actually thought it meant to kill someone, do you have any evidence that any one of the early church did such acts? If not, why think this is a command to kill?

For the 2nd one, it's basically saying that God has to be number your first priority. There are plenty of times when people become Christians that it drives others away from them. It goes on to say "Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn ‘A man against his father, a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36A man’s enemies will be the members of his own household".

I don't see why someone would have an issue on the 3rd one? Accepting Jesus as an atonement is one of the core beliefs of the religion.

Is that the best you can do?

Paul

LC

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #77 on: July 09, 2019, 02:20:39 PM »
You're asking me how someone could possibly kill someone else in the name of Jesus.

To that, I point you to all the Christian wars in human history.

I mean come on Paul, you ask me:

Quote
If not, why think this is a command to kill?

Perhaps because it contains this language:
bring them here and slaughter them before me


Obviously these humans interpreted Jesus's words differently than you. And I've given three examples of Jesus' words which could conceivably be interpreted to do so.

What makes their interpretation wrong and yours correct?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 02:31:39 PM by LC »
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stahleyp

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #78 on: July 10, 2019, 09:18:23 AM »
You're asking me how someone could possibly kill someone else in the name of Jesus.

To that, I point you to all the Christian wars in human history.

I mean come on Paul, you ask me:

Quote
If not, why think this is a command to kill?

Perhaps because it contains this language:
bring them here and slaughter them before me


Obviously these humans interpreted Jesus's words differently than you. And I've given three examples of Jesus' words which could conceivably be interpreted to do so.

What makes their interpretation wrong and yours correct?

Well, for one, it's a parable (as you noted). This explains it better than I can:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENtlW-LEqu8
Paul

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #79 on: July 10, 2019, 11:05:55 AM »
"To that, I point you to all the Christian wars in human history."

Why the atheist do you mix religion with wars?

Ever heard of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Ghendis Khan, Alexander the Great? These were Jesus follower I suppose?

Then what about Muslims who kill each other, Hindus, etc.

Don't you get it yet? It has nothing to do with religion but, power and human nature.

So now since Parsad imposes on me strong censorship, I wish he could do the same to you or force you to respect, stop judging and accept other people who live and believe differently than you do!

Of course when it comes to economic, I believe there is only ONE way to go and it is free market capitalism.

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