Author Topic: Just in case anyone forgot  (Read 20179 times)

MrB

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #100 on: July 12, 2019, 01:19:55 AM »
I recently lost someone very dear to me, so this is a topic which has been on my mind of late. So if I may, let me throw in my $0.02 into the discussion....

The apostles Jesus chose should be in a good position to know whether or not Jesus was "the real deal" or not. They were there to witness the miracles he performed. If Jesus was a simple con man trying to trick the masses one would have to think that the apostles would know and be in on the scam. However, judging by their actions one can conclude that they truly believed Jesus was the son of God. Take Peter for example, he died by crucifixion, hanging upside down. IF one didn't believe why wouldn't you just renounce your beliefs and live? Clearly their actions show they had faith.

Famous 17th century philosopher Blaise Pascal posited something along the lines of "It is better to believe in God and be proven wrong than to not believe in God and be proven wrong".

All I know is that people die far too young everyday, be it from illness or accident. As in all things balance is the key, plan for the possibility you may be fortunate enough to live to 100 but enjoy today as well. And treasure every moment you can with those you love for no one knows what tomorrow brings.

Sorry for your loss ZF, "“And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.” Romans 8:28
Hope things get better for you with time.

Just a thought on the last bit of your post. Why would one not want to live forever, because that is what God promises. As the best known verse of the Bible says,
"For God So Loved the World
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life[/b]."

It's a rhetorical question by the way.


MrB

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #101 on: July 12, 2019, 09:12:02 AM »
Not sure if this question/comment has been covered so apologies in advance if it has...

I always find it curious when anyone...quotes from the Bible as support for any argument they are making. To the best of my knowledge there is no original copy of the entire Bible. Fragments of various passages and sections have been found throughout the centuries but no complete version. Assuming this is correct then I am wondered how anyone can be so sure that the Bible is the absolute word of God.

First you dont have an original version of the document that can be referred back to. Second, even if you did have the such an original document it would be written in ancient Aramaic or Hebrew which would require translation into English or whatever other modern language is preferred which would be no easy task. Practically speaking it would be almost impossible to know with absolute confidence that the Bible you are reading today is the word of God as he/she intended.

In todays modern world if you leave out a single word or comma from a sentence or a paragraph its entire meaning can change. So we need to believe that those individuals who filled in the blanks from the missing documents which were written thousands of years ago have it exactly right. That the word of God is being represented exactly as he/she intended. Does anyone else see this as problematic?

Sure faith is needed...thats always the answer I have gotten when I raised this issue in the past however something more than faith is needed ...is it not?

Great question BP! You should scrutinize the Bible on that basis. What is the point if it cannot pass scrutiny. The following are biased sources, but still a good start.

https://www.biblicaltheology.com/Research/MartinezR02.html
https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2016/march/incredible-proof-for-why-you-should-have-faith-in-the-bible

LC

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #102 on: July 12, 2019, 10:17:48 AM »
Also sorry you lost someone zorrofan.

There's a line I like, paraphrasing here:

Although our bodies will all decay, our spirit lingers on in the places we knew as home. And this brings solace to our friends and family for the loss they have sustained.
"Lethargy bordering on sloth remains the cornerstone of our investment style."
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Zorrofan

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #103 on: July 12, 2019, 10:26:57 AM »
MrB and LC,

Thank you for your kind words.

Zorro

MrB

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #104 on: July 12, 2019, 11:21:25 AM »
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LC I'm trying to catch up here, you're quite a few posts ahead of me. Have a few things going on. I appreciate the engagement though.
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Oh no worries, I understand - the reality is this discussion has occurred for millennia and never changes anyone's mind. We'll miss points and talk past each other, but just having the discussion is the end goal  ;D

LC, let’s roll. I don’t have much time, so let’s see how far we get. I know the above is an off the cuff comment, but the following is noteworthy anyway.
Firstly, I cannot change your mind. Biblically speaking it’s not your mind that needs changing, it’s your heart and all I can do is share the good news with you, the rest is outside my control. Ezekiel 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Secondly, every day people are saved and they are changed e.g. in China https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/christianity-china and Iran https://www.christianpost.com/news/iranian-intelligence-minister-concerned-with-growth-of-christianity-converts-summoned.html
Having said that there are a number of Pew studies that show that those practicing (not identifying as) Christianity is in the decline in the West.


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In response to the above. Correlation does not prove causality. Look at the bold and underlined parts from the source quoted above. Firstly, according to the source Ferdinand was an "inspiration" to the conflict. It was also an important economic war with the Habsburgs. So there has to be a point where the actors in the conflict specifically and humans in general should take ownership of the conflict, from beginning to end. To argue that Jesus inspired it, there has to be causality and none of the above proves it.
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This is having it both ways. "All the goodness is jesus, all the wickedness is human". What a crock of baloney!

Of course people fight and kill each other for power in the material world. The point is they use their blind faith in jesus (or mohommad or whomever) as the excuse and the means. How do you get countrymen to go kill each other? Is it by saying, "do this so my family can get richer while you die?" or by saying, "those evil wicked nonbelievers are an affront to god and we must risk our lives to cut them down! Oh and don't worry if you die you'll go to heaven!"

At least it seems we agree that people are the problem. Still want to hold your feet to the fire on this one. You have not answered the basic question, How did Jesus inspire these wars, bad behaviour or whatever you want to call it? Show me in the Bible what people are misinterpreting that calls them to the above action mentioned by you.

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Jesus will bring God's judgement and the Thirty Year War will look like a tea party in comparison, so I'm not trying to suggest Jesus is some peace loving, cuddly, pacifist.
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This may be a topic for another day but it is a juicy one. This is the death wish that the truly religious have, not the pseudo religious (i.e. the cafeteria catholics, etc.). They are waiting for the world to end, so that the wheat may be separated from the chaff, and all us nonbelievers will be sent to burn in hell. To the real believer who is convinced he will end up in god's embrace, every day on earth is a toil and they cannot wait for the "other" to be punished. In my interpretation, this is sadism and a very real evil of religion and christianity.

That would be sadistic if true, BUT it’s not. Generally a Christian cannot do what you suggest. One way to illustrate this would be to explain a Christian’s attitude to forgiveness. We’re forgiven not because we deserve it, but by GRACE.  Ephesians 2:8-9 (ESV) 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Also there is no sin from which we cannot be saved, except for blaspheming the Holy Spirit, but let’s put that aside for now. Therefore if I really understand and appreciate my forgiveness then it is not possible for me not to extend that GRACE to someone else. To see this in action I strongly encourage you to read the following; question any Christian including myself have to ask is how I will behave in such a situation? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Nickel_Mines_School_shooting

What you refer to above is not Biblical behaviour.

P.S. Got to bounce. Will try and get to the rest a bit later.

LC

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #105 on: July 12, 2019, 12:03:34 PM »
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Secondly, every day people are saved and they are changed e.g. in China https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/christianity-china and Iran https://www.christianpost.com/news/iranian-intelligence-minister-concerned-with-growth-of-christianity-converts-summoned.html
My point was that I myself am probably not going to be the one to present some grand argument to have everyone go, "wow, god really doesn't exist!". Just like you (no offense) are probably not going to throw some biblical verse at me so that I say, "oh wow, look at the Joe 3:12 sentence, now I really believe god exists!"

What changes peoples views on these (at least in my estimation) are the emotional experiences we have over the course of our lives.

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Still want to hold your feet to the fire on this one. You have not answered the basic question, How did Jesus inspire these wars, bad behaviour or whatever you want to call it? Show me in the Bible what people are misinterpreting that calls them to the above action mentioned by you.
My premise is that Jesus doesn't exist. So Jesus can't "inspire" anything himself, because if he ever lived he died long long ago. He wasn't existing in the middle age to whisper in some European warlord's ear and say "ever heard of a Crusade?"

All people have is an old story that has been indoctrinated in an entire population. It's used as justification.

I presented some biblical verse where the J-man himself calls for war and death and such. Can you not see how people can use these verses to justify war?

Here's another example, a "soldier of christ"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9w55rJ80oM

Now to be fair I didn't watch this video (was just searching around) but here's the slice of the description:

Jarrod would come to realize how God had used real warfare to prepare him for the spiritual warfare he has been called to fight Sunday after Sunday

I mean, just look at some of the comments for even further evidence of how people use Jesus to justify war:

Amen! 1-30-19 Thank you We are soldiers for the Kingdom.

Thank you for fighting and fighting the good fight. Praying Lord continues to grow us in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. Keep on keeping on until kingdom come!

"Fight the good fight of the faith" ( 1 Timothy 6:12), and, " wage the good warfare" (1 Timothy 1:18) " in the defense and confirmation of The Gospel" (Philippians 1:7) " as a Good Soldier of Jesus Christ"( 2 Timothy 2:3-4)!!🇺🇸🗽🦅🕊️☦️✝️⛪🕊️🙏👼😇⚔️


More to come...

« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 01:22:38 PM by LC »
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stahleyp

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #106 on: July 12, 2019, 12:47:52 PM »
Hey Paul, this is a response to your post:

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When does Jesus say that slavery is okay?

You know, I've always thought christians made the best slave-owners. Now I know why. Here we are instructed to serve our christian owners even more diligently!

All who are under the yoke as slaves are to regard their own masters as worthy of all honor so that the name of God and our doctrine will not be spoken against. Those who have believers as their masters must not be disrespectful to them because they are brethren, but must serve them all the more, because those who partake of the benefit are believers and beloved.

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what is Paul supposed to say? Rebel against your masters and die? When Paul wrote that it was a very, very, very small religion
Ah I see - slavery is only OK under certain circumstances. Thanks jesus!  ;D

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In an era of declining natural resources, wouldn't you think eugenics is probably a pretty good move?
Nope. Human ingenuity continues to improve, increasing the efficiency of resource gathering and use. And I think experts argue that population will stabilize at a somewhat sustainable level.

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If it's only made up in my mind, it's really quite dumb to listen to it when it goes against my best interest.
Define your best interest.

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He actually went back to help fight against the Nazis and ended up being hung. From an atheistic view, isn't this very, very dumb?
Well I'm not so sure. It goes to the "best interest" point - my "best interest" may not be someone else's. There are things in life I would die for, and I'm sure that goes for you as well (family, etc.).  Perhaps this was one of those things, for Bonhoeffer. Also, I don't see that he went back with the expectation that he would die, so it's difficult to say it was "dumb". In fact, his previous success fighting in Germany would support this.

lc, the slave quote wasn't from Jesus. It's in Timothy. I'm still waiting for you tell to me where Jesus is like "own slaves" or something similar. ;) Assuming that slavery was legal at the time (and it was), what's so bad about the verse?


I would say that "best interest" may be defined as something that keeps you alive the longest in order to reproduce (in an atheistic sense anyway). If one is an atheist, effectively the universe didn't begin until you were alive and will end when you die.

It's pretty dumb to die for family, country or for pretty much any reason since you would be dead - and all those feelings that created the values are dead too. People get this romantic idea of dying for their values or something they believe in...but that all ceases when someone dies. One's values are no bigger than the self.

Do you really not think Bonhoeffer thought it was really, really risky to go back to fight?

Paul

LC

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #107 on: July 12, 2019, 01:06:17 PM »
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. One way to illustrate this would be to explain a Christian’s attitude to forgiveness. We’re forgiven not because we deserve it, but by GRACE.  Ephesians 2:8-9 (ESV) 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Also there is no sin from which we cannot be saved, except for blaspheming the Holy Spirit, but let’s put that aside for now.

Wrapping up here MrB - so on this one, first that is truly tragic about the Amish school shooting. I mean you read things like that and your heart just hurts. Now can you forgive that murderer? I don't know if I can. I don't know if anyone can. And I don't see how god killing his son forgives that murderer of his own responsibility. Let's accept that jesus died and "saved us all".

I don't want to be saved. People are responsible for their actions. If I were the parents of one of those murdered girls, I don't see how jesus dying absolves that man of his responsibility. And if I ever committed something to atrocious, I wouldn't want that responsibility lifted. To remove that responsibility lessens the value of all those children and the lives they lived, and the families that lost them. This idea of vicarious redemption (i.e. that we are all saved through jesus) is evil.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 01:27:08 PM by LC »
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LC

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #108 on: July 12, 2019, 01:20:10 PM »
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lc, the slave quote wasn't from Jesus. It's in Timothy. I'm still waiting for you tell to me where Jesus is like "own slaves" or something similar. ;) Assuming that slavery was legal at the time (and it was), what's so bad about the verse?
To the last question first: you ask what is wrong with slavery? Do i really need to answer this? Legality has nothing to do with it. We know now that slavery is wrong. I mean, according to the bible nothing is wrong with it. And apparently the people at the time of jesus didn't think anything was wrong with it, and frankly neither did jesus.

Now as to the first part: I'm sorry, but is not the bible the word of god? Is it not divine and everything in it? You tell me which parts are divine and which are not.

Now as to what Jesus is attributed to saying:

Matthew 18:21-35: Jesus’ “Parable of the Unmerciful Servant”, wherein Jesus compares the relationship between god and humankind to that of a master and his slaves. Jesus offers the story of a master selling a slave along with his wife and children.

Matthew 20:20-28: A series of remarks wherein Jesus recognizes it is necessary to be a slave to be “first” among the deceased entering heaven.

Matthew 24:36-51: Jesus’ “Parable of the Faithful Servant”, wherein Jesus again compares the relationship between God and humankind to that of a master and his slaves.


Jesus does not seem to disparage slavery. In fact he often is seen healing slaves so they could presumably go back to serve their masters. And he takes the view that humans are to god what slaves are to their masters. How quaint!

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I would say that "best interest" may be defined as something that keeps you alive the longest in order to reproduce (in an atheistic sense anyway). If one is an atheist, effectively the universe didn't begin until you were alive and will end when you die.
And this is your opinion, and that's fine. Some atheists may say their "best interest" is to live freely - and would rather fight and die than be ruled by a religious state.

So to claim that your definition of "best interest" is universally applicable, is in my view untrue. Nothing prevents an atheist from leaping in front of a bus to save his child, or donating his wealth to charity, or any other things which help others or shorten his/her own reproductive lifespan.

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One's values are no bigger than the self.
Well I think many atheists and many religious would disagree with this. To claim that atheists cannot envision a better life for humanity after their own death, and that their own actions to further this goal are futile, is again IMHO untrue.

And I definitely think bonhoeffer was aware of the risks of what he was getting into. And just because god isn't currently rewarding him in heaven, that doesn't make his efforts any less worthwhile.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 01:28:09 PM by LC »
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stahleyp

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Re: Just in case anyone forgot
« Reply #109 on: July 12, 2019, 01:52:21 PM »
lc, why do you feel that slavery is bad? Why do you condemn their version of morality if yours has no more insight than theirs? Do you feel that you're being a bigot?

The atheist that jumps in front of the bus to save their child is irrational. They are simply following their evolutionary instincts. So much for the "free thinkers." I don't see how one can even dispute that. Do you think they're doing anything more than blindly following their instincts? The love for the child is simply a chemical reaction. Let's not act like it's something bigger. You have no evidence to support that claim.

I think the best interest that I described is appropriate. Many times people don't even know what is in their best interest. How is staying alive to spread one's DNA not in that best interest? "Living freely" is simply an emotional desire. It has nothing to do with reality. No one is really ever all that free anyway. We only think we are living freely because we see others who have shackles. Yet, we rarely see our own shackles.

With Bonhoeffer it totally makes his decision dumb. He died. He didn't see the end of the war. I get the feeling that you think all of these things are valuable, but they're not when you're dead. If one is dead, the pleasure of experiencing the values never occur so it's like it never really happened. He could have lead a life of comfort in the US and probably looked like a celebrity after the war. He chose the high road and made the ultimate sacrifice - that doesn't mean it wasn't dumb. If all morality is subjective, hanging out in the US with one's life in hand seems like a better decision. I'm not saying that he did it to get to heaven. I'm saying he did it because it felt it was the right thing to do. If all right and wrong is subjective (as you seem to think) it was a dumb, dumb decision. Wouldn't it rank right next to the people who die taking selfies? They're trying to please the people on instagram and he was trying to please the people in Germany.

If an atheist is like "I would give up my life for world peace." That is completely and utterly idiotic. A) You're dead B) You don't even know if your plan worked c) Even if it did work, you don't enjoy it (or even know about it).  There is nothing that transcends the self so it's dumb to have that as a value. All of these "values" are just programmed into us by evolution and society.



Paul