Author Topic: Kudos to Trump!  (Read 4405 times)

LC

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Re: Kudos to Trump!
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2019, 04:37:34 PM »
What statement are you referring to LC?
I was referring to your statement about this being evidence of Iran being squeezed by sanctions. Not sure how you came to that conclusion.
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no_free_lunch

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Re: Kudos to Trump!
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2019, 06:04:24 PM »
It is widely cited by both the left and right.  It also just makes a lot of sense.  The sanctions are biting, they don't want to be seen as weak so they hit back.

I won't claim to understand all the nuance to the situation and honestly Iran doesn't appear to be the worst actor in the region.  I don't want to come across as anti Iran at all. However looking at it coldly it seems this is where Trump would want them and last thing he wants is to fire the first shot.

Castanza

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Re: Kudos to Trump!
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2019, 07:05:56 PM »
I'd love to know why you think my response was biased. And just for clarity, I agree with the ultimate decision not to attack Iran. I think it was the correct decision. This was my analysis of why Trump goes from ordering a military strike to cancelling it.

It's possible there is another explanation: perhaps he had an 11th-hour change of heart and found Jesus, or maybe he simply had a senile moment. Maybe it wasn't Trump at all but somebody else called it off and it's being attributed to Trump.

Tons of possibilities, but IMHO the most likely explanation is the bully-behavior I described, which is consistent with his historical pattern of behavior. If that's a biased analysis of the situation, I'd love to learn why.

When your opening line is "The thing about Trump is" you are immediately trying to find the bad. You couldn't even say something good about his choice. 

Of course LC is biased, but so are you and so am I. Everyone is biased.  If Hitler did something good,  it would be hard to look at that one thing in isolation without being biased by who he was and what he's done. And yes, to LC Trump is some kind of super-Hitler (who just hasn't happened to have committed genocide yet).
Sure, I can agree everyone is biased. But that's still a bit different than giving credit where it is due. Also I try to be biased through the lens of the Constitution (when it applies). And LC I'm not saying you should fawn over him. I'm simply saying it seems like you try very hard to find the bad. At the very least try to have some positive skepticism. America not attacking another country is a win for America and the world.

Yeah, but that is true about alot of people, not just LC.  For two years, we've had just about anything Trump did irrationally defended...didn't matter what it was.  Many things were very child-like, and certainly not presidential let alone behaving like an adult.  I mean why the complete attack on Obama and everything Obama did, trying to wipe out any and all things Obama did as president?  Very bizarre...vengeful...distasteful and a waste of energy.  Especially when he didn't accomplish anything like repealing Obamacare. 

The rotating door of personnel...the lack of response to Charlottesville...alienation of global allies...f**kin tariffs where they weren't needed...nepotism up the ying yang...lack of disclosure on tax returns...increasing deficits and national debt...deregulation where it isn't needed (banks)...the list goes on and on, and was constantly defended by the usual suspects on here.  So, before you go lording over LC's biases, take a moment for inner reflection.  Cheers!

I'm not "Lording" over anyone. Simply making an observation. You're response is completely emotional and unfounded. You apply failures of others to condemn things to me. I've been equally critical of Obama and Trump. If you read what I posted you would see I said I am not perfect. And first of all I was praising you for supporting Trump on this decision. How often have you or LC criticized Obama? So I'll pass on that inner reflection.  People tend to get emotional when an inner cord is struck (just saying).

LC

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Re: Kudos to Trump!
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2019, 08:01:56 PM »
The sanctions are biting, they don't want to be seen as weak so they hit back.

I won't claim to understand all the nuance to the situation and honestly Iran doesn't appear to be the worst actor in the region. 

This is a possibility as well, I admit. In my estimation it seems Iran would have made the same move regardless of the sanctions. Trumps response seems weak and almost amateur.

What comes to mind is something about walking softly and carrying a big stick.
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no_free_lunch

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Re: Kudos to Trump!
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2019, 09:31:45 PM »
I think you underestimate what sanctions can do.   He is hitting back by keeping the sanctions on.  He has been hitting back every day for a year and now Iran is getting desperate.

LC

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Re: Kudos to Trump!
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2019, 11:06:14 PM »
Ok, but now we are talking about sanctions and not Trump's threat of military response. I was talking about this response when describing his behavior. And to Castanza, I'm still not seeing where my characterization showed evidence of bias.


Now if you want to change to topic to sanctions (a perfectly legitimate topic and probably more impactful longterm), I would ask, how is this evidence of "Iran getting desperate"? Iran has been shooting down UAVs and trying to capture American UAVs for years/decades (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93U.S._RQ-170_incident).

To me this does not seem like a change in behavior as a result of sanctions, i.e. signs of desperation. To the contrary it seems entirely consistent with their historical behavior towards American military intelligence in Iran.

« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 11:18:05 PM by LC »
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Parsad

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Re: Kudos to Trump!
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2019, 12:47:56 AM »
I'd love to know why you think my response was biased. And just for clarity, I agree with the ultimate decision not to attack Iran. I think it was the correct decision. This was my analysis of why Trump goes from ordering a military strike to cancelling it.

It's possible there is another explanation: perhaps he had an 11th-hour change of heart and found Jesus, or maybe he simply had a senile moment. Maybe it wasn't Trump at all but somebody else called it off and it's being attributed to Trump.

Tons of possibilities, but IMHO the most likely explanation is the bully-behavior I described, which is consistent with his historical pattern of behavior. If that's a biased analysis of the situation, I'd love to learn why.

When your opening line is "The thing about Trump is" you are immediately trying to find the bad. You couldn't even say something good about his choice. 

Of course LC is biased, but so are you and so am I. Everyone is biased.  If Hitler did something good,  it would be hard to look at that one thing in isolation without being biased by who he was and what he's done. And yes, to LC Trump is some kind of super-Hitler (who just hasn't happened to have committed genocide yet).
Sure, I can agree everyone is biased. But that's still a bit different than giving credit where it is due. Also I try to be biased through the lens of the Constitution (when it applies). And LC I'm not saying you should fawn over him. I'm simply saying it seems like you try very hard to find the bad. At the very least try to have some positive skepticism. America not attacking another country is a win for America and the world.

Yeah, but that is true about alot of people, not just LC.  For two years, we've had just about anything Trump did irrationally defended...didn't matter what it was.  Many things were very child-like, and certainly not presidential let alone behaving like an adult.  I mean why the complete attack on Obama and everything Obama did, trying to wipe out any and all things Obama did as president?  Very bizarre...vengeful...distasteful and a waste of energy.  Especially when he didn't accomplish anything like repealing Obamacare. 

The rotating door of personnel...the lack of response to Charlottesville...alienation of global allies...f**kin tariffs where they weren't needed...nepotism up the ying yang...lack of disclosure on tax returns...increasing deficits and national debt...deregulation where it isn't needed (banks)...the list goes on and on, and was constantly defended by the usual suspects on here.  So, before you go lording over LC's biases, take a moment for inner reflection.  Cheers!

I'm not "Lording" over anyone. Simply making an observation. You're response is completely emotional and unfounded. You apply failures of others to condemn things to me. I've been equally critical of Obama and Trump. If you read what I posted you would see I said I am not perfect. And first of all I was praising you for supporting Trump on this decision. How often have you or LC criticized Obama? So I'll pass on that inner reflection.  People tend to get emotional when an inner cord is struck (just saying).

It wasn't emotional at all.  I was pointing out the fact that three of you were criticizing LC for his opinion or "bias" as you all portrayed it.  One person called him "dumb"...which has been deleted.  So if you are going to portray yourself as balanced in your opinion, you should be critiquing everyone involved in the conversation. 

In terms of Obama, frankly I think Obama did a remarkable job considering what he inherited in his first term.  I think there was considerable room for improvement in the 2nd term and Obamacare was rushed out.  And like the Bush Administration, he didn't do anything to equalize trade between China and the United States...that being said, he could have triggered another recession if he pursued tarriffs or a new trade agreement with China as the economy was recovering. 

Otherwise, he restored global relationships with allies that were frayed under the Bush administration and created new ones...many of which have been damaged by Trump now.  US banks became the strongest in the world, unemployment began its long trend downwards, he captured Osama Bin Laden, and tech companies in the U.S. became the most dominant in the world. 

But the problem with Obama, not unlike Trump, is that a man with a hammer sees every problem as a nail.  Neither will give credit where it is due and neither will take an idea from the other if it makes sense.  So unlike many, I'm not a complete fan of Obama's, and I give Trump credit when it is due...but overall, I think Obama was good for America.  I can't give a full opinion on Trump until after Trump's run...be it one or two terms.  Cheers!
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no_free_lunch

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Re: Kudos to Trump!
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2019, 08:25:35 AM »
Ok, but now we are talking about sanctions and not Trump's threat of military response. I was talking about this response when describing his behavior. And to Castanza, I'm still not seeing where my characterization showed evidence of bias.


Now if you want to change to topic to sanctions (a perfectly legitimate topic and probably more impactful longterm), I would ask, how is this evidence of "Iran getting desperate"? Iran has been shooting down UAVs and trying to capture American UAVs for years/decades (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93U.S._RQ-170_incident).

To me this does not seem like a change in behavior as a result of sanctions, i.e. signs of desperation. To the contrary it seems entirely consistent with their historical behavior towards American military intelligence in Iran.

That last drone wasn't shot down they jammed it or commandeered it, I am not really clear which.

Also, it wasn't just a drone this time.  There was the sabotage of the 2 oil tankers the week before and they also announced that they were locked on a US spy plane and could have taken that out as well.  Again, there are also responses from all sorts of media linking it together with sanctions.

Sanctions are a form of reprisal.  Don't underestimate them.  They played a decisive role in both the civil war and the first world war.  They are probably not going to be decisive in and of themselves but iran with US sanctions on is being hurt much more than the US with a downed UAV.  I feel Trump has more to lose than gain by getting into a military conflict when the sanctions are already so one-sided in the US favor.

cubsfan

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Re: Kudos to Trump!
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2019, 08:36:06 AM »

Sanctions are a form of reprisal.  Don't underestimate them.  They played a decisive role in both the civil war and the first world war.  They are probably not going to be decisive in and of themselves but iran with US sanctions on is being hurt much more than the US with a downed UAV.

No doubt about it:

https://amgreatness.com/2019/06/19/we-hold-all-the-cards-in-the-showdown-with-iran/

The sanctions are clearly destroying an already weak Iranian economy. Iran is now suffering from negative economic growth, massive unemployment and record inflation.

The Iranian theocrats despise the Trump Administration. They yearn for the good old days of the Obama Administration, when the United States agreed to a nuclear deal that all but guaranteed future Iranian nuclear proliferation, ignored Iranian terrorism and sent hundreds of millions of dollars in shakedown payments to the Iranian regime.

Castanza

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Re: Kudos to Trump!
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2019, 10:36:17 AM »

Sanctions are a form of reprisal.  Don't underestimate them.  They played a decisive role in both the civil war and the first world war.  They are probably not going to be decisive in and of themselves but iran with US sanctions on is being hurt much more than the US with a downed UAV.

No doubt about it:

https://amgreatness.com/2019/06/19/we-hold-all-the-cards-in-the-showdown-with-iran/

The sanctions are clearly destroying an already weak Iranian economy. Iran is now suffering from negative economic growth, massive unemployment and record inflation.

The Iranian theocrats despise the Trump Administration. They yearn for the good old days of the Obama Administration, when the United States agreed to a nuclear deal that all but guaranteed future Iranian nuclear proliferation, ignored Iranian terrorism and sent hundreds of millions of dollars in shakedown payments to the Iranian regime.

I'm not saying I agree with the Middle East and their way of life (treatment of women etc.) But they were quite fine on their own before the US continually got involved. Not to mention Iraq used to be a decent ally whom we eventually turned our back on. Also in fairness to Iran (hard to say that). The nuclear material they had that apparently broke this contract with the US was hardly even medical grade. Not exactly the nuclear arms the media wants to scare everyone about. I understand there may have been a reason to go to the Middle East back in the late 50's. But this continual interventionism is ridiculous. The US constantly plays with fire trying to rig elections, handing out favors and cash etc. Look at what we were just doing in Venezuela. And we wonder why terrorism is on an uptick for western civilizations (especially the US). It's time we leave these people alone and stop intervening in everything (I doubt this will every happen). How much terrorism existed before the US started poking and prodding the Middle East? First mistake was WWI, then Vietnam and the Middle East. Where are we off too next? Sick of the Neocons always trying to get into more wars. Bolton, CIA, Rumsfeld, Obama, Trump, Bush, Eisenhower, etc. You all suck.

As Bill Burr said: "I'm pro-leaving people the f$%k alone."