Corner of Berkshire & Fairfax Message Board

General Category => Politics => Topic started by: Parsad on June 21, 2019, 05:06:58 PM

Title: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: Parsad on June 21, 2019, 05:06:58 PM
I'll praise him when warranted...did the right thing by not striking Iran.  His reasoning of "150 lost lives in a strike not making sense relative to the destruction of the drone"...probably the first President to make that type of decision in American history! 

I'm happy throwing shit at him when he screws up and acts like a bigoted, bully, jackass, but Dems, Republicans and global leaders should praise him for keeping a calm head on this one.  His entire team was telling him to strike.  Cheers!

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/21/us/politics/trump-iran-attack.html
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: Gregmal on June 21, 2019, 05:26:14 PM
I'll admit, I was very surprised by this as well.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: Spekulatius on June 21, 2019, 05:48:31 PM
I agree with above, but I am not that surprised. I think Trump is way more reluctant to get drawn into a war than many other presidents before him. Sometimes, doing nothing can be the hardest thing to do, but it might just be the right thing.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: LC on June 21, 2019, 09:47:26 PM
The thing about Trump is he's a bully. He'll take advantage of those with little or no power. When you hit back, now he reels.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: Parsad on June 22, 2019, 12:20:09 AM
The thing about Trump is he's a bully. He'll take advantage of those with little or no power. When you hit back, now he reels.

I don't think that is what he was doing here.  Yes, he's a bully, and even tries to intimidate foreign nations, but it would have been very easy to side with Pompeo and Bolton.  To say innocent lives weren't reciprocal to a drone being shot down...now that takes courage...especially for a guy who never likes to look weak! 

The last five predecessors to Trump (Reagen to Obama) found it easy to retaliate or start wars.  Very easy to push a button or send others to their death.  I'm glad Trump didn't find the decision so easy.  Cheers! 
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: Spekulatius on June 22, 2019, 05:28:49 AM
The thing about Trump is he's a bully. He'll take advantage of those with little or no power. When you hit back, now he reels.

I don't think that is what he was doing here.  Yes, he's a bully, and even tries to intimidate foreign nations, but it would have been very easy to side with Pompeo and Bolton.  To say innocent lives weren't reciprocal to a drone being shot down...now that takes courage...especially for a guy who never likes to look weak! 

The last five predecessors to Trump (Reagen to Obama) found it easy to retaliate or start wars.  Very easy to push a button or send others to their death.  I'm glad Trump didn't find the decision so easy.  Cheers!

I agree with above. Trump is a bit like a dog who barks a lot but doesn’t immediately bite. Then there are dogs who don’t bark and just bite you. I prefer the former.

Trump can always push the button later. Look at history - WW1, Vietnam, Syria (?), Gulf war II where buttons were pushed too easily and sometimes on incorrect information.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: rkbabang on June 22, 2019, 08:33:15 AM
I'm appalled that he ordered the strike to begin with, but very happy that he did the right thing in the end. Had any other president done this there is no way in hell we would ever know that they changed their mind like that.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: Castanza on June 23, 2019, 02:14:52 PM
The thing about Trump is he's a bully. He'll take advantage of those with little or no power. When you hit back, now he reels.

LC your bias is deeply rooted and I don't understand why. I'm all for being critical of presidents, but you have to give them credit where credit is due. And I'm not saying Trump won't make a mistake moving forward (Iran related or not). But I'm curious to hear who you think has been a good president in recent years? Or just in general?

Obama came into office with a freaking Nobel Peace prize and out bombed GWB, He also deported more people with ICE than Trump has.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/449665-trump-deporting-immigrants-at-slower-pace-than-obama-report

BUT Trump came into office saying he was going to slash spending blah blah blah. In reality the deficit is growing more and more and we are still spending more. 
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: LC on June 23, 2019, 04:30:06 PM
I'd love to know why you think my response was biased. And just for clarity, I agree with the ultimate decision not to attack Iran. I think it was the correct decision. This was my analysis of why Trump goes from ordering a military strike to cancelling it.

It's possible there is another explanation: perhaps he had an 11th-hour change of heart and found Jesus, or maybe he simply had a senile moment. Maybe it wasn't Trump at all but somebody else called it off and it's being attributed to Trump.

Tons of possibilities, but IMHO the most likely explanation is the bully-behavior I described, which is consistent with his historical pattern of behavior. If that's a biased analysis of the situation, I'd love to learn why.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: Parsad on June 23, 2019, 11:17:40 PM
I'm just glad they chose the cyber-attack route rather than bombing or a war.  Cripple their military computer systems/network and embargo supplies/trade.  Cheers!
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: Castanza on June 24, 2019, 06:52:42 AM
I'd love to know why you think my response was biased. And just for clarity, I agree with the ultimate decision not to attack Iran. I think it was the correct decision. This was my analysis of why Trump goes from ordering a military strike to cancelling it.

It's possible there is another explanation: perhaps he had an 11th-hour change of heart and found Jesus, or maybe he simply had a senile moment. Maybe it wasn't Trump at all but somebody else called it off and it's being attributed to Trump.

Tons of possibilities, but IMHO the most likely explanation is the bully-behavior I described, which is consistent with his historical pattern of behavior. If that's a biased analysis of the situation, I'd love to learn why.

When your opening line is "The thing about Trump is" you are immediately trying to find the bad. You couldn't even say something good about his choice. 
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: LC on June 24, 2019, 07:25:11 AM
Now I think you're showing your own bias. In other words, I do not have to coddle the president to signal an unbiased analysis of the situation.

The analysis should stand on its own. Now, if you disagree with my assessment or think it's biased, I'd be genuinely interested to know why. But to say I'm biased only because I didn't fawn over Trump is simply showing your own biased, low-expectations of DT.

To paraphrase Chris Rock: "Some people always want credit for some stuff they're supposed to do. They'll say some stuff like, "I ain't never been to jail!". Well, do you want a cookie? You're not supposed to go to jail you low-expectation-having motherf*@($%!"

Funny stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0B_ekSrsEk
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: rkbabang on June 24, 2019, 07:57:35 AM
I'd love to know why you think my response was biased. And just for clarity, I agree with the ultimate decision not to attack Iran. I think it was the correct decision. This was my analysis of why Trump goes from ordering a military strike to cancelling it.

It's possible there is another explanation: perhaps he had an 11th-hour change of heart and found Jesus, or maybe he simply had a senile moment. Maybe it wasn't Trump at all but somebody else called it off and it's being attributed to Trump.

Tons of possibilities, but IMHO the most likely explanation is the bully-behavior I described, which is consistent with his historical pattern of behavior. If that's a biased analysis of the situation, I'd love to learn why.

When your opening line is "The thing about Trump is" you are immediately trying to find the bad. You couldn't even say something good about his choice. 

Of course LC is biased, but so are you and so am I. Everyone is biased.  If Hitler did something good,  it would be hard to look at that one thing in isolation without being biased by who he was and what he's done. And yes, to LC Trump is some kind of super-Hitler (who just hasn't happened to have committed genocide yet).
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: Castanza on June 24, 2019, 08:11:49 AM
I'd love to know why you think my response was biased. And just for clarity, I agree with the ultimate decision not to attack Iran. I think it was the correct decision. This was my analysis of why Trump goes from ordering a military strike to cancelling it.

It's possible there is another explanation: perhaps he had an 11th-hour change of heart and found Jesus, or maybe he simply had a senile moment. Maybe it wasn't Trump at all but somebody else called it off and it's being attributed to Trump.

Tons of possibilities, but IMHO the most likely explanation is the bully-behavior I described, which is consistent with his historical pattern of behavior. If that's a biased analysis of the situation, I'd love to learn why.

When your opening line is "The thing about Trump is" you are immediately trying to find the bad. You couldn't even say something good about his choice. 

Of course LC is biased, but so are you and so am I. Everyone is biased.  If Hitler did something good,  it would be hard to look at that one thing in isolation without being biased by who he was and what he's done. And yes, to LC Trump is some kind of super-Hitler (who just hasn't happened to have committed genocide yet).
Sure, I can agree everyone is biased. But that's still a bit different than giving credit where it is due. Also I try to be biased through the lens of the Constitution (when it applies). And LC I'm not saying you should fawn over him. I'm simply saying it seems like you try very hard to find the bad. At the very least try to have some positive skepticism. America not attacking another country is a win for America and the world.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: LC on June 24, 2019, 08:52:32 AM
Quote
America not attacking another country is a win for America and the world.

Like Chris Rock said, "Give this man a cookie"


None of this talk of biases analyzes the ramification of Trump authorizing a military strike vs Iran and cancelling it at the last minute.

Of course, Iran sits back and thinks to itself, "We kicked this fellow in the shin, and in response he talked a big game but ultimately did nothing. Looks like we called this Trump fellow's bluff".

Trump gets to boast how tough he is. And then at the last minute, how "caring" he is.

But what actually matters, Trump has done damage. If Iran called his bluff once, you don't think they'll try do it again?

Standing up to the bully.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: no_free_lunch on June 24, 2019, 11:20:50 AM
I don't think there was ever an authorized strike that was pulled off at the last minute.  This is just a form of communication.  He is just trying to explain to them that they are right on the very edge.

The fact of the matter is, this just shows how squeezed Iran is by the sanctions.  It implies they are working as intended.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: LC on June 24, 2019, 12:17:51 PM
How do you figure that?
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: no_free_lunch on June 24, 2019, 01:44:08 PM
What statement are you referring to LC?
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: Parsad on June 24, 2019, 02:37:55 PM
I'd love to know why you think my response was biased. And just for clarity, I agree with the ultimate decision not to attack Iran. I think it was the correct decision. This was my analysis of why Trump goes from ordering a military strike to cancelling it.

It's possible there is another explanation: perhaps he had an 11th-hour change of heart and found Jesus, or maybe he simply had a senile moment. Maybe it wasn't Trump at all but somebody else called it off and it's being attributed to Trump.

Tons of possibilities, but IMHO the most likely explanation is the bully-behavior I described, which is consistent with his historical pattern of behavior. If that's a biased analysis of the situation, I'd love to learn why.

When your opening line is "The thing about Trump is" you are immediately trying to find the bad. You couldn't even say something good about his choice. 

Of course LC is biased, but so are you and so am I. Everyone is biased.  If Hitler did something good,  it would be hard to look at that one thing in isolation without being biased by who he was and what he's done. And yes, to LC Trump is some kind of super-Hitler (who just hasn't happened to have committed genocide yet).
Sure, I can agree everyone is biased. But that's still a bit different than giving credit where it is due. Also I try to be biased through the lens of the Constitution (when it applies). And LC I'm not saying you should fawn over him. I'm simply saying it seems like you try very hard to find the bad. At the very least try to have some positive skepticism. America not attacking another country is a win for America and the world.

Yeah, but that is true about alot of people, not just LC.  For two years, we've had just about anything Trump did irrationally defended...didn't matter what it was.  Many things were very child-like, and certainly not presidential let alone behaving like an adult.  I mean why the complete attack on Obama and everything Obama did, trying to wipe out any and all things Obama did as president?  Very bizarre...vengeful...distasteful and a waste of energy.  Especially when he didn't accomplish anything like repealing Obamacare. 

The rotating door of personnel...the lack of response to Charlottesville...alienation of global allies...f**kin tariffs where they weren't needed...nepotism up the ying yang...lack of disclosure on tax returns...increasing deficits and national debt...deregulation where it isn't needed (banks)...the list goes on and on, and was constantly defended by the usual suspects on here.  So, before you go lording over LC's biases, take a moment for inner reflection.  Cheers!
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: Parsad on June 24, 2019, 02:43:01 PM
Cardboard, every time your post has an insult, it will be deleted going forward.  I've deleted two today.  Eventually, when I get tired of it, I'm going to ban you...so be forewarned for one of the last times about insults.  As a long-time member, you are getting the benefit of the doubt, and that's why I haven't done it yet. 

I don't mind blunt posts that state fact or opinion, but calling people "dumb", etc is not allowed.  Cheers!
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: LC on June 24, 2019, 04:37:34 PM
What statement are you referring to LC?
I was referring to your statement about this being evidence of Iran being squeezed by sanctions. Not sure how you came to that conclusion.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: no_free_lunch on June 24, 2019, 06:04:24 PM
It is widely cited by both the left and right.  It also just makes a lot of sense.  The sanctions are biting, they don't want to be seen as weak so they hit back.

I won't claim to understand all the nuance to the situation and honestly Iran doesn't appear to be the worst actor in the region.  I don't want to come across as anti Iran at all. However looking at it coldly it seems this is where Trump would want them and last thing he wants is to fire the first shot.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: Castanza on June 24, 2019, 07:05:56 PM
I'd love to know why you think my response was biased. And just for clarity, I agree with the ultimate decision not to attack Iran. I think it was the correct decision. This was my analysis of why Trump goes from ordering a military strike to cancelling it.

It's possible there is another explanation: perhaps he had an 11th-hour change of heart and found Jesus, or maybe he simply had a senile moment. Maybe it wasn't Trump at all but somebody else called it off and it's being attributed to Trump.

Tons of possibilities, but IMHO the most likely explanation is the bully-behavior I described, which is consistent with his historical pattern of behavior. If that's a biased analysis of the situation, I'd love to learn why.

When your opening line is "The thing about Trump is" you are immediately trying to find the bad. You couldn't even say something good about his choice. 

Of course LC is biased, but so are you and so am I. Everyone is biased.  If Hitler did something good,  it would be hard to look at that one thing in isolation without being biased by who he was and what he's done. And yes, to LC Trump is some kind of super-Hitler (who just hasn't happened to have committed genocide yet).
Sure, I can agree everyone is biased. But that's still a bit different than giving credit where it is due. Also I try to be biased through the lens of the Constitution (when it applies). And LC I'm not saying you should fawn over him. I'm simply saying it seems like you try very hard to find the bad. At the very least try to have some positive skepticism. America not attacking another country is a win for America and the world.

Yeah, but that is true about alot of people, not just LC.  For two years, we've had just about anything Trump did irrationally defended...didn't matter what it was.  Many things were very child-like, and certainly not presidential let alone behaving like an adult.  I mean why the complete attack on Obama and everything Obama did, trying to wipe out any and all things Obama did as president?  Very bizarre...vengeful...distasteful and a waste of energy.  Especially when he didn't accomplish anything like repealing Obamacare. 

The rotating door of personnel...the lack of response to Charlottesville...alienation of global allies...f**kin tariffs where they weren't needed...nepotism up the ying yang...lack of disclosure on tax returns...increasing deficits and national debt...deregulation where it isn't needed (banks)...the list goes on and on, and was constantly defended by the usual suspects on here.  So, before you go lording over LC's biases, take a moment for inner reflection.  Cheers!

I'm not "Lording" over anyone. Simply making an observation. You're response is completely emotional and unfounded. You apply failures of others to condemn things to me. I've been equally critical of Obama and Trump. If you read what I posted you would see I said I am not perfect. And first of all I was praising you for supporting Trump on this decision. How often have you or LC criticized Obama? So I'll pass on that inner reflection.  People tend to get emotional when an inner cord is struck (just saying).
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: LC on June 24, 2019, 08:01:56 PM
The sanctions are biting, they don't want to be seen as weak so they hit back.

I won't claim to understand all the nuance to the situation and honestly Iran doesn't appear to be the worst actor in the region. 

This is a possibility as well, I admit. In my estimation it seems Iran would have made the same move regardless of the sanctions. Trumps response seems weak and almost amateur.

What comes to mind is something about walking softly and carrying a big stick.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: no_free_lunch on June 24, 2019, 09:31:45 PM
I think you underestimate what sanctions can do.   He is hitting back by keeping the sanctions on.  He has been hitting back every day for a year and now Iran is getting desperate.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: LC on June 24, 2019, 11:06:14 PM
Ok, but now we are talking about sanctions and not Trump's threat of military response. I was talking about this response when describing his behavior. And to Castanza, I'm still not seeing where my characterization showed evidence of bias.


Now if you want to change to topic to sanctions (a perfectly legitimate topic and probably more impactful longterm), I would ask, how is this evidence of "Iran getting desperate"? Iran has been shooting down UAVs and trying to capture American UAVs for years/decades (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93U.S._RQ-170_incident).

To me this does not seem like a change in behavior as a result of sanctions, i.e. signs of desperation. To the contrary it seems entirely consistent with their historical behavior towards American military intelligence in Iran.

Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: Parsad on June 25, 2019, 12:47:56 AM
I'd love to know why you think my response was biased. And just for clarity, I agree with the ultimate decision not to attack Iran. I think it was the correct decision. This was my analysis of why Trump goes from ordering a military strike to cancelling it.

It's possible there is another explanation: perhaps he had an 11th-hour change of heart and found Jesus, or maybe he simply had a senile moment. Maybe it wasn't Trump at all but somebody else called it off and it's being attributed to Trump.

Tons of possibilities, but IMHO the most likely explanation is the bully-behavior I described, which is consistent with his historical pattern of behavior. If that's a biased analysis of the situation, I'd love to learn why.

When your opening line is "The thing about Trump is" you are immediately trying to find the bad. You couldn't even say something good about his choice. 

Of course LC is biased, but so are you and so am I. Everyone is biased.  If Hitler did something good,  it would be hard to look at that one thing in isolation without being biased by who he was and what he's done. And yes, to LC Trump is some kind of super-Hitler (who just hasn't happened to have committed genocide yet).
Sure, I can agree everyone is biased. But that's still a bit different than giving credit where it is due. Also I try to be biased through the lens of the Constitution (when it applies). And LC I'm not saying you should fawn over him. I'm simply saying it seems like you try very hard to find the bad. At the very least try to have some positive skepticism. America not attacking another country is a win for America and the world.

Yeah, but that is true about alot of people, not just LC.  For two years, we've had just about anything Trump did irrationally defended...didn't matter what it was.  Many things were very child-like, and certainly not presidential let alone behaving like an adult.  I mean why the complete attack on Obama and everything Obama did, trying to wipe out any and all things Obama did as president?  Very bizarre...vengeful...distasteful and a waste of energy.  Especially when he didn't accomplish anything like repealing Obamacare. 

The rotating door of personnel...the lack of response to Charlottesville...alienation of global allies...f**kin tariffs where they weren't needed...nepotism up the ying yang...lack of disclosure on tax returns...increasing deficits and national debt...deregulation where it isn't needed (banks)...the list goes on and on, and was constantly defended by the usual suspects on here.  So, before you go lording over LC's biases, take a moment for inner reflection.  Cheers!

I'm not "Lording" over anyone. Simply making an observation. You're response is completely emotional and unfounded. You apply failures of others to condemn things to me. I've been equally critical of Obama and Trump. If you read what I posted you would see I said I am not perfect. And first of all I was praising you for supporting Trump on this decision. How often have you or LC criticized Obama? So I'll pass on that inner reflection.  People tend to get emotional when an inner cord is struck (just saying).

It wasn't emotional at all.  I was pointing out the fact that three of you were criticizing LC for his opinion or "bias" as you all portrayed it.  One person called him "dumb"...which has been deleted.  So if you are going to portray yourself as balanced in your opinion, you should be critiquing everyone involved in the conversation. 

In terms of Obama, frankly I think Obama did a remarkable job considering what he inherited in his first term.  I think there was considerable room for improvement in the 2nd term and Obamacare was rushed out.  And like the Bush Administration, he didn't do anything to equalize trade between China and the United States...that being said, he could have triggered another recession if he pursued tarriffs or a new trade agreement with China as the economy was recovering. 

Otherwise, he restored global relationships with allies that were frayed under the Bush administration and created new ones...many of which have been damaged by Trump now.  US banks became the strongest in the world, unemployment began its long trend downwards, he captured Osama Bin Laden, and tech companies in the U.S. became the most dominant in the world. 

But the problem with Obama, not unlike Trump, is that a man with a hammer sees every problem as a nail.  Neither will give credit where it is due and neither will take an idea from the other if it makes sense.  So unlike many, I'm not a complete fan of Obama's, and I give Trump credit when it is due...but overall, I think Obama was good for America.  I can't give a full opinion on Trump until after Trump's run...be it one or two terms.  Cheers!
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: no_free_lunch on June 25, 2019, 08:25:35 AM
Ok, but now we are talking about sanctions and not Trump's threat of military response. I was talking about this response when describing his behavior. And to Castanza, I'm still not seeing where my characterization showed evidence of bias.


Now if you want to change to topic to sanctions (a perfectly legitimate topic and probably more impactful longterm), I would ask, how is this evidence of "Iran getting desperate"? Iran has been shooting down UAVs and trying to capture American UAVs for years/decades (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93U.S._RQ-170_incident).

To me this does not seem like a change in behavior as a result of sanctions, i.e. signs of desperation. To the contrary it seems entirely consistent with their historical behavior towards American military intelligence in Iran.

That last drone wasn't shot down they jammed it or commandeered it, I am not really clear which.

Also, it wasn't just a drone this time.  There was the sabotage of the 2 oil tankers the week before and they also announced that they were locked on a US spy plane and could have taken that out as well.  Again, there are also responses from all sorts of media linking it together with sanctions.

Sanctions are a form of reprisal.  Don't underestimate them.  They played a decisive role in both the civil war and the first world war.  They are probably not going to be decisive in and of themselves but iran with US sanctions on is being hurt much more than the US with a downed UAV.  I feel Trump has more to lose than gain by getting into a military conflict when the sanctions are already so one-sided in the US favor.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: cubsfan on June 25, 2019, 08:36:06 AM

Sanctions are a form of reprisal.  Don't underestimate them.  They played a decisive role in both the civil war and the first world war.  They are probably not going to be decisive in and of themselves but iran with US sanctions on is being hurt much more than the US with a downed UAV.

No doubt about it:

https://amgreatness.com/2019/06/19/we-hold-all-the-cards-in-the-showdown-with-iran/

The sanctions are clearly destroying an already weak Iranian economy. Iran is now suffering from negative economic growth, massive unemployment and record inflation.

The Iranian theocrats despise the Trump Administration. They yearn for the good old days of the Obama Administration, when the United States agreed to a nuclear deal that all but guaranteed future Iranian nuclear proliferation, ignored Iranian terrorism and sent hundreds of millions of dollars in shakedown payments to the Iranian regime.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: Castanza on June 25, 2019, 10:36:17 AM

Sanctions are a form of reprisal.  Don't underestimate them.  They played a decisive role in both the civil war and the first world war.  They are probably not going to be decisive in and of themselves but iran with US sanctions on is being hurt much more than the US with a downed UAV.

No doubt about it:

https://amgreatness.com/2019/06/19/we-hold-all-the-cards-in-the-showdown-with-iran/

The sanctions are clearly destroying an already weak Iranian economy. Iran is now suffering from negative economic growth, massive unemployment and record inflation.

The Iranian theocrats despise the Trump Administration. They yearn for the good old days of the Obama Administration, when the United States agreed to a nuclear deal that all but guaranteed future Iranian nuclear proliferation, ignored Iranian terrorism and sent hundreds of millions of dollars in shakedown payments to the Iranian regime.

I'm not saying I agree with the Middle East and their way of life (treatment of women etc.) But they were quite fine on their own before the US continually got involved. Not to mention Iraq used to be a decent ally whom we eventually turned our back on. Also in fairness to Iran (hard to say that). The nuclear material they had that apparently broke this contract with the US was hardly even medical grade. Not exactly the nuclear arms the media wants to scare everyone about. I understand there may have been a reason to go to the Middle East back in the late 50's. But this continual interventionism is ridiculous. The US constantly plays with fire trying to rig elections, handing out favors and cash etc. Look at what we were just doing in Venezuela. And we wonder why terrorism is on an uptick for western civilizations (especially the US). It's time we leave these people alone and stop intervening in everything (I doubt this will every happen). How much terrorism existed before the US started poking and prodding the Middle East? First mistake was WWI, then Vietnam and the Middle East. Where are we off too next? Sick of the Neocons always trying to get into more wars. Bolton, CIA, Rumsfeld, Obama, Trump, Bush, Eisenhower, etc. You all suck.

As Bill Burr said: "I'm pro-leaving people the f$%k alone."
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: cubsfan on June 25, 2019, 12:16:43 PM
Do you seriously want a nuclear Iran?

They have made it quite clear their destiny is to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: Castanza on June 25, 2019, 12:44:46 PM
Do you seriously want a nuclear Iran?

They have made it quite clear their destiny is to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.
Israel is quite capable of defending themselves. Iran has been trying to eliminate Israel since the beginning of time. They have been unsuccessful long before US intervention. It's not our job to play world police all the time. I mean didn't Trump run on that message? We can't keep paying for other countries security.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: cubsfan on June 25, 2019, 02:23:02 PM
Remember who your friends are - Iran is not one of them and never will be. Israel is, and will back the USA in the Middle East in the time of need.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: Spekulatius on June 25, 2019, 03:09:34 PM
Do you seriously want a nuclear Iran?

They have made it quite clear their destiny is to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

It is my opinion that Iran will have nuclear weapons due time. They have decent scientists, and if No can do it, so will Iran. Trump ending the nuclear deal (which he claimed was bad, but to my knowledge Iran kept their side of the deal up, until Trump broke it) May accelerate the timeline.

The sanctions are definitely hurting Iran , the economy has been in a recession since they were reinstated. The newest sanctions however (affecting officals personally) are a bit of a whimper though, imo. I think since essentially all the economic activity are sanctioned already, there isn’t much they can be done on in addition to what’s in place already any more.

Iran now is working more with Russia politically and economically and I think with respect to military too. Not much the US can do about that. There is some risk that all these outlaws - China, Russia, Iran and who knows else are going to band together. i don’t think a military or Chinese naval base would be in NATO’s interest ,  it I think there is a possibility they this might happen. If not an outright naval base, then a cooperation with the Chinese emerging Navy is a possibility.

As far as destroying Israel is concerned, it is not clear to me how much of this is rhetoric. Iran is kind of a renegade the region, because generally speaking, the Sunni’s don’t like the Shia too much. keep on mind that it was Irak who attacked Iran (which is seen by Iran as a proxy war of the US against their country) and not the other way around. I don’t think the Iranian government officials are suicidal and would attack Israel.

The region is just a big mess and the less western involvement, the better, imo.
Interesting times.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: cubsfan on June 25, 2019, 03:31:08 PM
All the more reason for the USA not to go it alone. The UK, Canada, France and Israel have long been fast allies against bad actors.
To abandon or let Israel to continue to be threatened by Iran should be unacceptable to America and our allies.

Strangling Iran economically is the right move.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: no_free_lunch on June 25, 2019, 07:58:13 PM
Israel is maybe your best ally in the region but I question how much of an ally they really are. How many troops did they send to Afghanistan?  To Iraq?  Now the US is supposed to fight Iran to protect Israel?

Let Israel fight Iran. Or maybe some coalition with Israel and Saudi.  Don't fight their wars for them.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: Castanza on June 27, 2019, 07:46:55 AM
All the more reason for the USA not to go it alone. The UK, Canada, France and Israel have long been fast allies against bad actors.
To abandon or let Israel to continue to be threatened by Iran should be unacceptable to America and our allies.

Strangling Iran economically is the right move.

The US shouldn't be hiring themselves out to other countries as unpaid mercenaries. Even if other countries were paying us it's not the best use of our military. Leave people alone and let them solve their own problems. I like Israel, they have been an ally...to an extent....but it seems they and everyone else takes advantage of the US and our desire to police the world. That is called interventionism and it is unconstitutional. We shouldn't be meddling in affairs abroad.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: cubsfan on June 27, 2019, 08:17:14 AM
All the more reason for the USA not to go it alone. The UK, Canada, France and Israel have long been fast allies against bad actors.
To abandon or let Israel to continue to be threatened by Iran should be unacceptable to America and our allies.

Strangling Iran economically is the right move.

The US shouldn't be hiring themselves out to other countries as unpaid mercenaries. Even if other countries were paying us it's not the best use of our military. Leave people alone and let them solve their own problems. I like Israel, they have been an ally...to an extent....but it seems they and everyone else takes advantage of the US and our desire to police the world. That is called interventionism and it is unconstitutional. We shouldn't be meddling in affairs abroad.

If you want to lose the entire Mideast to the Iranians, backed by Moscow - then you let them go. Otherwise, you back Israel.

When you stood by and watched Germany take Czechoslovakia without action, you simply emboldened an expansionist regime.

Deterrence is a powerful antidote - but if you don't use it - you invite a wider conflict.

History doesn't change that much.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: Spekulatius on June 27, 2019, 06:18:49 PM
All the more reason for the USA not to go it alone. The UK, Canada, France and Israel have long been fast allies against bad actors.
To abandon or let Israel to continue to be threatened by Iran should be unacceptable to America and our allies.

Strangling Iran economically is the right move.

The US shouldn't be hiring themselves out to other countries as unpaid mercenaries. Even if other countries were paying us it's not the best use of our military. Leave people alone and let them solve their own problems. I like Israel, they have been an ally...to an extent....but it seems they and everyone else takes advantage of the US and our desire to police the world. That is called interventionism and it is unconstitutional. We shouldn't be meddling in affairs abroad.

If you want to lose the entire Mideast to the Iranians, backed by Moscow - then you let them go. Otherwise, you back Israel.

When you stood by and watched Germany take Czechoslovakia without action, you simply emboldened an expansionist regime.

Deterrence is a powerful antidote - but if you don't use it - you invite a wider conflict.

History doesn't change that much.

Another variant of the domino theory. Have the Iranians actually attacked another country?
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: Castanza on June 27, 2019, 07:45:30 PM
All the more reason for the USA not to go it alone. The UK, Canada, France and Israel have long been fast allies against bad actors.
To abandon or let Israel to continue to be threatened by Iran should be unacceptable to America and our allies.

Strangling Iran economically is the right move.

The US shouldn't be hiring themselves out to other countries as unpaid mercenaries. Even if other countries were paying us it's not the best use of our military. Leave people alone and let them solve their own problems. I like Israel, they have been an ally...to an extent....but it seems they and everyone else takes advantage of the US and our desire to police the world. That is called interventionism and it is unconstitutional. We shouldn't be meddling in affairs abroad.

If you want to lose the entire Mideast to the Iranians, backed by Moscow - then you let them go. Otherwise, you back Israel.

When you stood by and watched Germany take Czechoslovakia without action, you simply emboldened an expansionist regime.

Deterrence is a powerful antidote - but if you don't use it - you invite a wider conflict.

History doesn't change that much.

How was the Middle East before WWII? How about before the mistake of a war WWI? Why could we mind out own business before then but not now? Again, the US cannot afford nor is it constitutional to engage in interventionism.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: cubsfan on June 27, 2019, 08:17:44 PM
All the more reason for the USA not to go it alone. The UK, Canada, France and Israel have long been fast allies against bad actors.
To abandon or let Israel to continue to be threatened by Iran should be unacceptable to America and our allies.

Strangling Iran economically is the right move.

The US shouldn't be hiring themselves out to other countries as unpaid mercenaries. Even if other countries were paying us it's not the best use of our military. Leave people alone and let them solve their own problems. I like Israel, they have been an ally...to an extent....but it seems they and everyone else takes advantage of the US and our desire to police the world. That is called interventionism and it is unconstitutional. We shouldn't be meddling in affairs abroad.

If you want to lose the entire Mideast to the Iranians, backed by Moscow - then you let them go. Otherwise, you back Israel.

When you stood by and watched Germany take Czechoslovakia without action, you simply emboldened an expansionist regime.

Deterrence is a powerful antidote - but if you don't use it - you invite a wider conflict.

History doesn't change that much.

Another variant of the domino theory. Have the Iranians actually attached another country?

What do you call what they have done in Lebanon for years?  Syria? Iraq? Yemen? Gaza?

If you can't see that Iran wants to be the superpower in the Middle East, you are not paying attention.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: Castanza on June 28, 2019, 07:32:22 AM
All the more reason for the USA not to go it alone. The UK, Canada, France and Israel have long been fast allies against bad actors.
To abandon or let Israel to continue to be threatened by Iran should be unacceptable to America and our allies.

Strangling Iran economically is the right move.

The US shouldn't be hiring themselves out to other countries as unpaid mercenaries. Even if other countries were paying us it's not the best use of our military. Leave people alone and let them solve their own problems. I like Israel, they have been an ally...to an extent....but it seems they and everyone else takes advantage of the US and our desire to police the world. That is called interventionism and it is unconstitutional. We shouldn't be meddling in affairs abroad.

If you want to lose the entire Mideast to the Iranians, backed by Moscow - then you let them go. Otherwise, you back Israel.

When you stood by and watched Germany take Czechoslovakia without action, you simply emboldened an expansionist regime.

Deterrence is a powerful antidote - but if you don't use it - you invite a wider conflict.

History doesn't change that much.

Another variant of the domino theory. Have the Iranians actually attached another country?

What do you call what they have done in Lebanon for years?  Syria? Iraq? Yemen? Gaza?

If you can't see that Iran wants to be the superpower in the Middle East, you are not paying attention.

Are any of those countries any better than Iran? They are all threats to Israel regardless.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: no_free_lunch on June 28, 2019, 08:06:58 AM
It is interesting that Spek used the term "attached another country".  It is a typo of course but that is basically what they are doing.  Not an out and out invasion but they are forming closer and closer ties and creating influence.  Iran has large militias in Syria and Iraq, this is fact.  They are at the very least funding and transferring weapons and tech to Yemen.  They are also working with North Korea on nuclear weapons.

I differ in the solution.  If everybody knows that the US will ask as a policeman, your allies will take advantage of you and lower their defence budgets.  This is what is happening.  That is why all of the US NATO allies have such small defence budgets.  You do know that all these other countries openly mock your "militaristic" stance even while they depend on you right?  Your boys are dying and they are laughing at you.   Domino theory is valid but the NATO populations need to awake to the realities.  The only way for that to happen is for the US to become more isolationist.

Basically you need to scare the shit out of everyone again.  There is a huge amount of global complacency in your allies.  At this point by intervening all you are doing is enabling bad behaviour.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: cubsfan on June 28, 2019, 09:51:46 AM
It is interesting that Spek used the term "attached another country".  It is a typo of course but that is basically what they are doing.  Not an out and out invasion but they are forming closer and closer ties and creating influence.  Iran has large militias in Syria and Iraq, this is fact.  They are at the very least funding and transferring weapons and tech to Yemen.  They are also working with North Korea on nuclear weapons.

I differ in the solution.  If everybody knows that the US will ask as a policeman, your allies will take advantage of you and lower their defence budgets.  This is what is happening.  That is why all of the US NATO allies have such small defence budgets.  You do know that all these other countries openly mock your "militaristic" stance even while they depend on you right?  Your boys are dying and they are laughing at you.   Domino theory is valid but the NATO populations need to awake to the realities.  The only way for that to happen is for the US to become more isolationist.

Basically you need to scare the shit out of everyone again.  There is a huge amount of global complacency in your allies.  At this point by intervening all you are doing is enabling bad behaviour.

I would basically agree with this - perhaps my opinion is a little different, in that I think Trump is trying to "force" alliances by his actions
(such as NATO - "Now why do we need NATO?, Tell me again Why?").   I actually think Trump agrees with you - and he is trying to scare the
shit out of the "free loaders" like Germany.

You have the same thing happening in the Mideast. Israel has never shirked there responsibilities. But the moderate Arab states definitely have,
so you have the Emirates, Saudia Arabia, and Jordan, even Egypt being forced to come around to your point of view. Trump will back them against an Iran,
but he wants alliances.

I'm not so arrogant to think that the USA does NOT NEED alliances, in spite of our spectacular military.  We can count on Israel, Canada, UK, and France
to be our friends when the chips are down against Iran and it's active proxy Hezbollah (Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Gaza).

But we need REGIONAL alliances of which Israel is feared and powerful. Time for the moderate Arab states to chip in as well with men, materials, bases, etc -
against Terrorist states like Iran, who may get backing from Russia, etc.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: cubsfan on June 28, 2019, 09:56:12 AM

Are any of those countries any better than Iran? They are all threats to Israel regardless.

None of those countries hold a candle to Iran. All of them are near failed states, with an active Hezbollah.
The stronger the Iran proxy becomes, the worse the threat of course.

But an Iran with a nuclear weapon just makes the situation worse.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: cubsfan on June 30, 2019, 06:16:03 AM
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/06/for-regime-change-in-iran/

Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: cobafdek on July 06, 2019, 10:58:58 PM
This thread topic began like this:

I'll praise him when warranted...

A reasonable person would apply it to the following statement made by the President about Charlottesville:

"And you had people -- and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists -- because they should be condemned totally."

But I'll cut you some slack.  You probably find it hard to commend the President, and I understand, given your feelings about Trump on matters of race.

So instead of doing the hard thing (Kudos to Trump), how about doing the next best thing, which should be easier:

Disavow the MSM and their pundits who, since August 2017 (and more recently, Joe Biden and Kamala Harris), have propagated and perpetuated the following meme:  Trump's statement about Charlottesville praised neo-Nazis and white nationalists, and called them "fine people."

Is this meme true, or false?  Fact, or Fake News? 

(Hint:  it's not hard.)

You praised Trump at least once, i.e., this thread.  Anyone who can't condemn the media regarding the "Fine People" Hoax (or even any other single time), and continues to disseminate this meme, is a brainwashed media propaganda tool.  And by this thread I know you're not.



Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: Parsad on July 12, 2019, 01:09:19 PM
Kudos to Trump again for sticking up for Pelosi.  The Democrats would not have done that for him!  Cheers!

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/12/politics/nancy-pelosi-donald-trump-alexandria-ocasio-cortez/index.html
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: cobafdek on July 12, 2019, 06:44:50 PM
More praise for our racist President:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfNbfyuy1cs
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: Parsad on July 14, 2019, 07:54:52 PM
Kudos to Trump again for sticking up for Pelosi.  The Democrats would not have done that for him!  Cheers!

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/12/politics/nancy-pelosi-donald-trump-alexandria-ocasio-cortez/index.html

Just as I congratulated this jackass for doing the right thing defending Pelosi, he goes and tweets his usual moronic, divisive crap:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/14/politics/donald-trump-tweets-democratic-congresswomen-race-nationalities/index.html

Cheers!
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: LC on July 14, 2019, 08:23:41 PM
More praise for our racist President:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfNbfyuy1cs
Are we still attributing economic growth to the sitting president?

Trump cannot control the economy. I dare say we over-emphasize even the influence of his tax policy.

But he can control his racism, if he so chooses.  :-[
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: cobafdek on July 14, 2019, 09:59:41 PM
For the slow people in class:

https://twitter.com/mcnabb_dave/status/1150460078065094657
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: Spekulatius on July 15, 2019, 05:01:16 AM
Kudos to Trump again for sticking up for Pelosi.  The Democrats would not have done that for him!  Cheers!

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/12/politics/nancy-pelosi-donald-trump-alexandria-ocasio-cortez/index.html

Just as I congratulated this jackass for doing the right thing defending Pelosi, he goes and tweets his usual moronic, divisive crap:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/14/politics/donald-trump-tweets-democratic-congresswomen-race-nationalities/index.html

Cheers!

I laughed when I read his tweets. He would make a great villain in a “Naked gun” sequel.
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: Parsad on July 15, 2019, 01:21:47 PM
Kudos to Trump again for sticking up for Pelosi.  The Democrats would not have done that for him!  Cheers!

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/12/politics/nancy-pelosi-donald-trump-alexandria-ocasio-cortez/index.html

Just as I congratulated this jackass for doing the right thing defending Pelosi, he goes and tweets his usual moronic, divisive crap:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/14/politics/donald-trump-tweets-democratic-congresswomen-race-nationalities/index.html

Cheers!

I laughed when I read his tweets. He would make a great villain in a “Naked gun” sequel.

He literally came out of central casting.  In fact, I think Trump should have played the bigoted, lumpy, narcissistic, bullying President in the next catastrophe movie...oh wait!   ;D  Cheers!
Title: Re: Kudos to Trump!
Post by: cobafdek on July 23, 2019, 05:41:36 PM
Kudos to Trump again for sticking up for Pelosi.  The Democrats would not have done that for him!  Cheers!

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/12/politics/nancy-pelosi-donald-trump-alexandria-ocasio-cortez/index.html

Just as I congratulated this jackass for doing the right thing defending Pelosi, he goes and tweets his usual moronic, divisive crap:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/14/politics/donald-trump-tweets-democratic-congresswomen-race-nationalities/index.html

Cheers!

If Trump's a "jackass" (your words), what are these two?:

https://twitter.com/YossiGestetner/status/1153813769409089537

What may be more important, what's the MSM?  (Hint:  brainwashing agents?)