Author Topic: Mr. Trump to Impose Stiff Tariffs on Steel and Aluminum  (Read 62712 times)

MarkS

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Re: Mr. Trump to Impose Stiff Tariffs on Steel and Aluminum
« Reply #470 on: July 12, 2018, 05:08:31 AM »
Spekulatius has a good point about America's desire to extend and maintain its influence abroad.   Since we're hemorrhaging red ink perhaps it's time to reconsider our role in the world.  Here is a link to an article on why we should consider not protecting Europe any longer. 
https://www.nationalinterest.org/feature/why-america-still-defending-europe-24957


Spekulatius

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Re: Mr. Trump to Impose Stiff Tariffs on Steel and Aluminum
« Reply #471 on: July 13, 2018, 04:12:00 AM »
Spekulatius has a good point about America's desire to extend and maintain its influence abroad.   Since we're hemorrhaging red ink perhaps it's time to reconsider our role in the world.  Here is a link to an article on why we should consider not protecting Europe any longer. 
https://www.nationalinterest.org/feature/why-america-still-defending-europe-24957

Europeans donít feel threatened. Right or wrong, but thatís what it is. US is free to pull their troops back, which they have been doing anyways over time. As long as  the US remains in the NATO, they would be obligated to help any nation within NATO that gets attacked, based on the NATO contract. If the US leaves the NATO, then that obligation ceases to exist.
To be a realist, one has to believe in miracles.

John Hjorth

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Re: Mr. Trump to Impose Stiff Tariffs on Steel and Aluminum
« Reply #472 on: July 14, 2018, 11:36:30 AM »
Spekulatius has a good point about America's desire to extend and maintain its influence abroad.   Since we're hemorrhaging red ink perhaps it's time to reconsider our role in the world.  Here is a link to an article on why we should consider not protecting Europe any longer. 
https://www.nationalinterest.org/feature/why-america-still-defending-europe-24957

Europeans donít feel threatened. Right or wrong, but thatís what it is. US is free to pull their troops back, which they have been doing anyways over time. As long as  the US remains in the NATO, they would be obligated to help any nation within NATO that gets attacked, based on the NATO contract. If the US leaves the NATO, then that obligation ceases to exist.

MarkS,

I agree with Spekulatius here, based on general local sentiment. I also think recent NATO developments expose that this is the contrary of how USA wants NATO to work going forward.

Subject to USA being and staying in NATO, it is to me game over for Russia [with one exemption, ref. below] to expand westbound, based on the fourth [1999] and fifth  [2004] enlargements of NATO territory.

I think you have to look at the situation in two dimensions ["Member of NATO" and "Part of Europe" [with a contemporary geographical definition], which complicates assessment of the situation much:

1. A part of Russia [the western part] is now inside, the eastern part outside Europe.
2. There is a large barrel of powder with regard to Finland as part of Europe, but it is not a NATO member. [And there is actually fear in Finland for Russian behavior.]
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 11:43:55 AM by John Hjorth »
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MarkS

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Re: Mr. Trump to Impose Stiff Tariffs on Steel and Aluminum
« Reply #473 on: July 14, 2018, 02:08:43 PM »
John,
I found your comments  and Spekulatius's comments very interesting.  Your comments made me aware that my understanding of the European contemporary mind certainly needs improvement.  Coincidentally a friend of mine who has been living in Amsterdam for the last couple of years just sent me this article from the Asia Times.

http://www.atimes.com/article/natos-problem-is-that-europeans-wont-fight/

The polls cited in the article showing how few Dutch, Belgium and German citizens are actually willing to fight for their countries surprised me.  Europe has contributed so to much to Western Civilization. I'm surprised that more people aren't willing to fight for it.

John Hjorth

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Re: Mr. Trump to Impose Stiff Tariffs on Steel and Aluminum
« Reply #474 on: July 14, 2018, 04:22:14 PM »
Mark,

To some extent, it's now getting emotional [to the contrary of rational], and to some extent also hypothetical. Shall we continue? - I'm up to it, but please call me out, if you think it's time to do so.
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doc75

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Re: Mr. Trump to Impose Stiff Tariffs on Steel and Aluminum
« Reply #475 on: July 14, 2018, 04:43:32 PM »
John,
I found your comments  and Spekulatius's comments very interesting.  Your comments made me aware that my understanding of the European contemporary mind certainly needs improvement.  Coincidentally a friend of mine who has been living in Amsterdam for the last couple of years just sent me this article from the Asia Times.

http://www.atimes.com/article/natos-problem-is-that-europeans-wont-fight/

The polls cited in the article showing how few Dutch, Belgium and German citizens are actually willing to fight for their countries surprised me.  Europe has contributed so to much to Western Civilization. I'm surprised that more people aren't willing to fight for it.

Wow, that's quite some article. Sybarites indeed.

I was curious about the source of that poll, so I looked it up.  I believe it's a Gallup poll released in 2015, survey done in 2014.  But I didn't find the actual text of the questions, or the context, in my 3 min search. 

In any case, the US answer was 44%, which I think is telling.  My sense is that far more than half of the population would be willing to fight if the homeland was attacked.

Curious to hear others' thoughts on this. 


Spekulatius

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Re: Mr. Trump to Impose Stiff Tariffs on Steel and Aluminum
« Reply #476 on: July 15, 2018, 08:30:02 AM »
John,
I found your comments  and Spekulatius's comments very interesting.  Your comments made me aware that my understanding of the European contemporary mind certainly needs improvement.  Coincidentally a friend of mine who has been living in Amsterdam for the last couple of years just sent me this article from the Asia Times.

http://www.atimes.com/article/natos-problem-is-that-europeans-wont-fight/

The polls cited in the article showing how few Dutch, Belgium and German citizens are actually willing to fight for their countries surprised me.  Europe has contributed so to much to Western Civilization. I'm surprised that more people aren't willing to fight for it.

Fight for what? There is no perception of threat in Europe. Western Europe does not feel threatened by Russia, much less China. I am sure that the Baltic states, Poland, Finland and Ukraine feel different, but that a different matter.

This does not mean that Western Europeans want to abolish the NATO, it just means that they are not too concerning about national security. I am not stating itís right or wrong, but in a way, itís nothing else than an somewhat isolationist stance that we see in the US as well.
To be a realist, one has to believe in miracles.

shalab

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Re: Mr. Trump to Impose Stiff Tariffs on Steel and Aluminum
« Reply #477 on: July 15, 2018, 12:37:39 PM »
Yes, Spekulatius is right - the USA spent the majority of dollars during the cold war. Countries like Holland, Denmark, Germany are taken care of by being in NATO. It is mostly the problem with previous US governments which instead of worrying about the welfare of their citizens spent money on non-issues.

....

Fight for what? There is no perception of threat in Europe. Western Europe does not feel threatened by Russia, much less China. I am sure that the Baltic states, Poland, Finland and Ukraine feel different, but that a different matter.

This does not mean that Western Europeans want to abolish the NATO, it just means that they are not too concerning about national security. I am not stating itís right or wrong, but in a way, itís nothing else than an somewhat isolationist stance that we see in the US as well.

rb

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Re: Mr. Trump to Impose Stiff Tariffs on Steel and Aluminum
« Reply #478 on: July 15, 2018, 01:16:02 PM »
Actually during the cold war West Germany had a pretty big and well respected military. About half a million active duty troops, another million in reserve, 170,000 civilian personnel and lots of equipment. Germany and Netherlands spent about 3% of their GDP on the military.

I'd also say that peace and stability is a pretty big thing which has benefited the US greatly. Far from a non-issue. However, post like shalab's make me think that the US has enjoyed peace and stability for so long that it's now taken for granted and devalued. People should keep in mind that peace and stability is not necessarily the natural order of things.

MarkS

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Re: Mr. Trump to Impose Stiff Tariffs on Steel and Aluminum
« Reply #479 on: July 15, 2018, 04:06:47 PM »
The actual question used in the poll was:  If there were a war that involved (insert your country) would you be willing to fight for your country?

http://gallup-international.bg/en/Publications/2015/220-WIN-Gallup-Internationalís-global-survey-shows-three-in-five-willing-to-fight-for-their-country

The question was clearly light on specifics.  So we have a lot of quibble room concerning interpretation.  But I still think the results are eye opening.  The world wide average is that 61% would be willing to fight for their country.  Western Europe at about 24% is an anomaly - especially when you consider that Germany was actually occupied until about 1990.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 04:21:40 AM by MarkS »