Author Topic: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers  (Read 2627 times)

LC

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Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2018, 06:32:06 PM »
You're confusing ITIN filers with Social Security number filers when you talk about not receiving social security payments.
Unfortunately you are incorrect. I am specifically talking about undocumented workers.

This is the primary article that the Forbes article you linked eventually sources:

https://news.vice.com/article/unauthorized-immigrants-paid-100-billion-into-social-security-over-last-decade

Unauthorized workers are paying an estimated $13 billion a year in social security taxes and only getting around $1 billion back, according to a senior government statistician.

Stephen Goss, the chief actuary of the Social Security Administration (SSA), told VICE News that an estimated 7 million people are currently working in the US illegally. Of those, he estimates that about 3.1 million are using fake or expired social security numbers, yet also paying automatic payroll taxes. Goss believes that these workers pay an annual net contribution of $12 billion to the Social Security Trust Fund.

The SSA estimates that unauthorized workers have paid a whopping $100 billion into the fund over the past decade. Yet as these people are in the US illegally, it is unlikely that they will be able to benefit from their contributions later in life.


Quote
Besides even if they pay taxes - illegals imo are costing the American taxpayers more than they receive back in taxes. See Topic: Do illegal immigrants cost the American Taxpayer?
As to your point on whether immigrants cost the US taxpayer, you can refer here:

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/jan/23/donald-trump/does-immigration-policy-impose-300-billion-annuall/

The main points are:
-The US gov't is running a deficit, the implication there is that ALL taxpayers are net-negative.
-"The evidence does not suggest that current immigrant flows cost native-born taxpayers money over the long-run nor does it provide support for the notion that lowering immigration quotas or stepping up enforcement of existing immigration laws would generate savings to existing taxpayers,"
-Negative costs to immigrants are born by local/state govt's, from educating the children of illegal immigrants. These children are described as follows: "members of the second generation "are among the strongest economic and fiscal contributors in the U.S. population," the report said, with tax contributions greater than their parents and the native-born population."


Therefore, I don't share your opinion that illegal immigrants are any more expensive than native born citizens. The fact that the major cost of illegal immigrants is education is actually a good thing. Education generates a higher ROI than medicare/medicaid & Social security (the primary expenditures of native born citizens). For that reason I could even argue that illegal immigrants are the preferred expenditure.
"Lethargy bordering on sloth remains the cornerstone of our investment style."
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cubsfan

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Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2018, 06:43:20 PM »
Illegal aliens don't vote  and likely drain way more revenue than pay in taxes.  Why is it a benefit for Democratic Party to encourage the growth of illegals?

Illegals can easily vote with fake id's - in return the Democratic Party in CA and IL promise lots of expanded social services for them.
This has been a clear strategy started in California - and has permanently flipped CA to Democratic. It recently spread to NV and NM
and the hope it will continue to Texas and the rest of the Southwest.

This claim that "illegals are voting in droves" is commonly stated as fact, and equally commonly refuted as fiction.

Can you share any evidence of illegals voting under fake IDs in large numbers?  I thought Trump himself disbanded his committee looking into this because the problem essentially doesn't exist on any material scale.  But you are utterly convinced, so what evidence made you so convinced?

It's always struck me as a strange claim from a game theory point of view.  I would think the average illegal immigrant would want to stay as low profile as possible, and in particular avoid voluntary actions that require citizenship.  Sure, as a whole, the group may benefit by pushing Democrats into power... but people look out for themselves first, and it seems almost implausible that huge numbers would be taking on any additional risk to make their single vote count.

Well - here's how they get the voter id's - Jerry Brown passed a law to give undocumented illegals a driver license. Then they can simply use that
driver's license to get a voter id. There is not much of a fear among CA illegals - because there is no chance they will get deported, they are a protected class.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/california-motor-voter-act/

https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article207939584.html

Here in Illinois, illegals can get driver's license with no documentation. With that, you can get a voter's card. In Chicago, with no documentation, you
can get City identity card - and vote in any election.

I will let you decide if illegals are voting in large numbers. It's against the interest of the Democratic Party to prove their is voter fraud obviously.
You can use your common sense and decide it is happening. The Democratic Party wants these folks to become citizens and is providing them
social services. You have latino blocks and community organizers behind this push. You decide.

But - again - if you or I, as American citizens did this - we would be prosecuted and jailed with ruined lives.

cubsfan

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Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2018, 06:55:12 PM »

Therefore, I don't share your opinion that illegal immigrants are any more expensive than native born citizens. The fact that the major cost of illegal immigrants is education is actually a good thing. Education generates a higher ROI than medicare/medicaid & Social security (the primary expenditures of native born citizens). For that reason I could even argue that illegal immigrants are the preferred expenditure.

Oh my gosh - this is incredible. 80% of the current illegal immigrants are people from the poorest regions of Mexico and Honduras.
Lots of them are indigenous poor that don't even speak Spanish. It's so obvious these people are dirt poor. They suck up huge
amounts of California's social services. They don't speak English. The schools in California are ranked 49th in the country, they are so
over burden with the poor.

1/3 of the nation's welfare recipients live in California and 23% of Californians live below the poverty line. 50% of the population don't pay income taxes.

If your "theory" is correct - we should let millions of them in as they will boost our economy!
Maybe we should even kick all the rich people out - as the country will be so much better off!

You can't be serious?

Is this a place you would want to send your kids to school?
Why do you think so many middle class families are leaving California?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 07:23:17 PM by cubsfan »

LC

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Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2018, 07:16:41 PM »
If your "theory" is correct - we should let millions of them in as they will boost our economy!

Isn't this how America was built?

I'll just requote the relevant selection from my post because repetition is a decent way to learn:

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/jan/23/donald-trump/does-immigration-policy-impose-300-billion-annuall/

-"The evidence does not suggest that current immigrant flows cost native-born taxpayers money over the long-run nor does it provide support for the notion that lowering immigration quotas or stepping up enforcement of existing immigration laws would generate savings to existing taxpayers,"
-Negative costs to immigrants are born by local/state govt's, from educating the children of illegal immigrants. These children are described as follows: "members of the second generation "are among the strongest economic and fiscal contributors in the U.S. population," the report said, with tax contributions greater than their parents and the native-born population."

"Lethargy bordering on sloth remains the cornerstone of our investment style."
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LC

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Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2018, 07:21:06 PM »
In fact, the earliest European immigrants were EXACTLY what you describe, cubsfan:

Quote
In 1607 the first successful English colony settled in Jamestown, Virginia. Once tobacco was found to be a profitable cash crop, many plantations were established along the Chesapeake Bay in Virginia and Maryland.

Thus began the first and longest era of immigration, lasting until the American Revolution in 1775; during this time settlements grew from initial English toe-holds from the New World to British America. It brought Northern European immigrants, primarily of British, German, and Dutch extraction. The British ruled from the mid-17th century and they were by far the largest group of arrivals, remaining within the British Empire. Over 90% of these early immigrants became farmers.[1]

Large numbers of young men and women came alone as indentured servants. Their passage was paid by employers in the colonies who needed help on the farms or in shops. Indentured servants were provided food, housing, clothing and training but they did not receive wages. At the end of the indenture (usually around age 21) they were free to marry and start their own farms.[2]

Thanks for making a great point!
"Lethargy bordering on sloth remains the cornerstone of our investment style."
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brk.b | cash

cubsfan

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Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2018, 07:29:41 PM »
You're a really joke LC - I want what is best for the citizens of California and the United States.
I want their lives to be better - better schools, lower taxes, more jobs, less crime, etc.

Take care of our US citizens first. California is being destroyed by illegal immigration.

You are advocating allowing the poorest and most crime ridden candidates to immigrate ILLEGALLY -  because it's good for the country!
Yea, let's kick out all the rich people! That will make the country better!

Ridiculous!

doc75

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Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2018, 07:52:58 PM »

Well - here's how they get the voter id's - Jerry Brown passed a law to give undocumented illegals a driver license. Then they can simply use that
driver's license to get a voter id. There is not much of a fear among CA illegals - because there is no chance they will get deported, they are a protected class.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/california-motor-voter-act/

https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article207939584.html

Here in Illinois, illegals can get driver's license with no documentation. With that, you can get a voter's card. In Chicago, with no documentation, you
can get City identity card - and vote in any election.

I will let you decide if illegals are voting in large numbers. It's against the interest of the Democratic Party to prove their is voter fraud obviously.
You can use your common sense and decide it is happening. The Democratic Party wants these folks to become citizens and is providing them
social services. You have latino blocks and community organizers behind this push. You decide.

I'm not questioning how one might go about voting.  It doesn't seem to be very difficult at all.

It's not up to me to "decide" whether people are voting in large numbers.  It's either true or it isn't.  The lack of evidence would seem to imply it isn't.  That's just common sense.  It's not like people haven't been searching for such evidence.  Trump himself commanded some people to look into it, convinced he'd find it.  He apparently did not. 

Maybe there really is evidence.  I don't know.  I asked you for it and you responded with "You can use your common sense and decide", along with a couple more unsubstantiated claims to fit your narrative.  So again:  If this is such an obvious and pervasive problem, then where is the evidence?

I'm not American.  I live far from California and have no concept of the realities of life there or most anywhere else in the US.  I just want to know why you are so sure of your own convictions without evidence. 

cubsfan

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Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2018, 08:04:08 PM »
Doc - my answer to you is believe what you want. I told you the problem - That a democratic state like CA or IL is not going to investigate voter fraud
when it is clearly not in their interest?  They just aren't.

Perhaps not being familiar with US politics, you miss the fundamental insight that I never mentioned - for which I apologize.
The Democratic party is the party of "big government", socialization - a belief that most aspects of life in the US should be decided and controlled by gov.
The Republican Party is the part of  "limited government" - let private enterprise and individuals  decide what's best - regulate only the most egregious behavior.

That's fundamental in US politics.

I have no evidence for you.

doc75

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Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2018, 08:27:20 PM »
Doc - my answer to you is believe what you want. I told you the problem - That a democratic state like CA or IL is not going to investigate voter fraud
when it is clearly not in their interest?  They just aren't.

Perhaps not being familiar with US politics, you miss the fundamental insight that I never mentioned - for which I apologize.
The Democratic party is the party of "big government", socialization - a belief that most aspects of life in the US should be decided and controlled by gov.
The Republican Party is the part of  "limited government" - let private enterprise and individuals  decide what's best - regulate only the most egregious behavior.

That's fundamental in US politics.

I have no evidence for you.

I understand the essential differences between the Democratic and Republican parties.  I'm from Canada, not Jupiter. ;)

I also understand that the state gov't may not want to look into voter fraud if it is not in their interest to do so.  But it certainly would be in the interest of Republicans, both state and national, to establish some evidence of this widely-claimed fraud.  And yet it doesn't appear to exist.  So isn't the most logical explanation that voter fraud is not nearly as big a problem as you have chosen to believe?

Do you think there is widespread fraud in presidential elections, too?  Because in that case you know for sure that people have been looking for evidence.


cubsfan

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Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2018, 08:35:02 PM »
Of course it's in the interests of Republicans to establish voter fraud - but it can't happen - because the voter fraud is being done legally
and Republicans have no legislative power to change it. CA and ILL have been Democratically controlled for more years than I can remember.

Do I think illegal immigrants are voting in Presidential elections?   Yes, I do - but only in those states that make it very easy to do so.
Most states have very tight voter registration laws - like - you have to prove you are a US citizen - that's a novel concept - just not in
places like IL and CA. Most of Middle America actually respects the rule of law.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 08:39:40 PM by cubsfan »