Author Topic: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers  (Read 6684 times)

cubsfan

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Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2018, 07:52:06 AM »
Of course - it's no problem for the unhinged left.

If you or I did that - it would be a felony and our careers would be ruined - and we would go to jail.

But if you are an illegal alien - hey - it's no problem ! Because people like Jerry Brown and Rob Emmanuel are there to "serve you" for your illegal vote.

An enormous double standard that will get ever worse.

It's true.  As Bob Dylan said, "When ya ain't got nothin', you got nothin' to lose"

If you or I used a made-up SSN and got caught, we would face consequences (I'm assuming you are documented here).  But an undocumented immigrant filling out a made-up Social Security Number that doesn't match the name on a job application probably isn't going to be tracked down and punished (outside of losing the job if they are found out).

There a quite a few instances where people with literally nothing to lose do not have the same risk of loss as someone like me, who has a career, a reputation, a credit rating, limits on my liability insurances, etc...  I still wouldn't trade places in exchange for those "freedoms" though.

It seems to me that a lot of the anti-illegal immigrant crusaders don't seem to grasp that there is no viable legal path for Central Americans fleeing violence and corruption in their home counties - willing to risk extreme personal danger to try to make it into the USA for a chance at a better life.  People are always telling me, "just do it legally and we won't have a problem with you."  These are always people who do not know the reality of a Central American literally running for their life.  Its not a pleasant, safe, or affordable journey.  Think about what would justify such an undesirable and dangerous trip.

Has anyone on this forum ever lost out on a job because an undocumented immigrant was picked over them?  I would bet not.  But I do see thousands of unfilled jobs in agriculture, truck driving, roofing and virtually every other corner of the construction industry.

Don't fear the brown folks.  They just want to support their family, pay their taxes, and be a part of their community.  Just like you.  (well they may want to pay their taxes more than you, but I don't know that for sure)

You don't know anything about me. I have no fear of "brown people" - as my mother is a "brown" Latin American who came here when she was 19
and married my dad.  This topic of illegal immigration is widely discussed in my family.

When you willing break the law, it becomes easier and easier - than just entering the country legally. Of course many, many of these people
are dirt poor and searching for a better life. I have no issue with that - I have issue with ILLEGAL immigration. There are large amounts of
criminals involved in this immigration. 90% of our heroin comes over from Mexico. Large amounts of human trafficking. And of course, the
deteriorating conditions in Central and Southern California are strangling the state - and making life worse for Californian citizens -
wrecking their schools and diverting the bulk of California budget to social services. Central California is being hollowed out economically.

Legal immigration does not mean NO immigration. Why is it fair that you can just walk into our country by crossing the border in Mexico,
so that Barrack Obama can "catch and release" you - and you will never be deported?  My cousins would love to come to this country, but
they can't stay on anything but student visas or tourist visas without going through a laborious and expensive immigration attorney.
I guess I need to tell them to hop a bus to Mexico, walk across the border - and do it illegally. However, then they could never return to
see their families - so they aren't gonna do that. They choose to work the legal route.

It's the same for people from India and China what would make AWESOME citizens - they should be allowed in - not the large criminal
elements we have now. Mexico's policy is to "export their poor" to the US - so that the corrupt Mexican government does not have to do their
job - and take care of their citizens.

I have no fear of "brown" or "yellow" people, be they from Latin America, India or China.

I respect those that choose the legal route and respect our laws - and I welcome them here.
I've travel all over the world, but try hard to not break the laws of the host country I visit.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 07:57:43 AM by cubsfan »


MarkS

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Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2018, 08:01:37 AM »
Hi globalfinancepartners,

I have a couple of questions for you.  These are sincere questions and not meant to be gotcha questions. 

First, you talk about "made up social security numbers."  You make it sound like a victimless act.  But you don't account for the use of stolen social security numbers, especially the numbers issued to children who won't realize that they have problems until they start applying for credit.  See the article cited in the first post on this topic.  Should the interests of foreign nationals trump the interests of citizens who have had their identities stolen?

Second, historically migrants from Latin America have come here primarily for economic reasons mainly to escape poverty.  This summer most of the Central American migrants elected to continue to the United State even after Mexico offered them refuge - which indicates to me that the historical trend continues.  The U.S. is currently running huge budget deficits and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.  It's also clear that illegal immigrants add to the deficit.  Since we are either unable or unwilling to pay for the promises we've already made to our citizens, does it make sense to make even more unpaid for promises to non-citizens?

gfp

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Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2018, 08:53:27 AM »
In my experience the SSN is made up, which is why itís not a match with the name if it happens to belong to somebody. Iím sure there is also someone ďstealingĒ a matching pair and assuming the identity but that is not the norm. There are plenty of home grown criminals that steal identities this way. What is much more common in the immigrant community is they use a SSN but do not know the name, if any exists, that goes with it - hence the ďno matchĒ mentioned in the article. Thatís why I distinguished between ďstealingĒ a childís identity - a scary sounding offense, but letís be honest, they are not able to borrow under this stolen identity, they are depositing work credits into the victimís SS account until found out. They will never receive the childís SS benefits.  Is it bad?  Of course - it can cause a nightmare of paperwork and legal issues to sort out once discovered.

And, no, I do not believe the interests of undocumented immigrants should trump those of citizens.

It probably is true that immigrants add to the deficit. Much like all poor people add to the deficit. You might not be surprised, but the government even gave our adopted son a Medicaid card before we adopted him - when he had no identity or SSN. I donít think they were supposed to do that!

I think the solution for people who are angered by undocumented immigrants crossing into our county illegally is to focus on reforming the system under which they could come in legally. Because borders are porous, wall or no wall. If there is no viable legal path they are going to keep doing it the same way.

The notion that they are dangerous in greater proportion to average low earning American citizens is incorrect in my opinion and experience. Iím not religious, but all of the Latin American immigrants I know are religious, family oriented people.  Not rapists or murderers, or even thiefs.

LC

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Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2018, 09:16:12 AM »
You cited the articles LC. You didn't read them?  I also love your insults -just proves that you've run out of good arguments.

No obviously I didn't read them, I just managed to quote the relevant parts out of sheer luck.

You on the other hand, simply make claims without reference or explanation.

For example, you haven't explained how I was "confused". You haven't cited which article you are referencing.

I imagine you are reading too many Trump tweets and adopting his style of logic.
"Lethargy bordering on sloth remains the cornerstone of our investment style."
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LC

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Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2018, 09:24:19 AM »
Quote
I think the solution for people who are angered by undocumented immigrants crossing into our county illegally is to focus on reforming the system under which they could come in legally. Because borders are porous, wall or no wall. If there is no viable legal path they are going to keep doing it the same way.

Exactly.
"Lethargy bordering on sloth remains the cornerstone of our investment style."
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MarkS

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Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2018, 09:34:56 AM »
LC

You quoted only the middle sentence of the following:

"Regardless of immigration status, ITIN filers are not eligible for Social Security. According to the Social Security Administration, undocumented immigrants doled out an estimated $12 billion in payroll taxes but will never get the benefits. Also, ITIN filers canít get the Earned Income Tax Credit, due to a provision in a 1996 law."

Taken in its entirety it's clear they are referring to TIN filers not SSN filers.  I'm going to leave it to you to try figure out the difference.

The quote about illegal immigrants costing more in benefits than they pay in taxes comes from the Politifact article you cited.  Read it again! 

MarkS

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Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2018, 09:48:42 AM »
Globalfinancepartners

Do you have evidence that illegals who have a job and a stolen SSN can't get credit?  From what I've read they can and it creates problems for kids when they apply for credit.

I've also noticed that neither you nor LC want to address the benefits illegal immigrants receive and how it increases our already bloated deficits.  Milton Friedman once wrote:

 "it's just obvious you can't have free immigration and a welfare state."
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 10:02:06 AM by MarkS »

gfp

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Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2018, 10:26:15 AM »
I think I'm just equally concerned about deficit spending on benefits for citizens who choose not to work and deficit spending on undocumented immigrants who do choose to work (and contribute payroll taxes, and sometimes even pay income taxes if they don't end up in the large 0% tax bracket).  Honestly, given the choice I would cut the benefits for the able bodied citizens who choose not to work before I would stress about the cost of hard working immigrants on the system.  Balancing the federal budget or not doesn't really effect my views on illegal immigration much.  I guess we can agree to disagree.  My family immigrated to this country less than 110 years ago and I don't feel any particular ownership over this land.  Except my few little squares, of course.  I built fences around those.

how do you make a smiley face on this thing?   :-)
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 10:28:44 AM by globalfinancepartners »

LC

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Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2018, 11:51:35 AM »
LC

You quoted only the middle sentence of the following:

"Regardless of immigration status, ITIN filers are not eligible for Social Security. According to the Social Security Administration, undocumented immigrants doled out an estimated $12 billion in payroll taxes but will never get the benefits. Also, ITIN filers canít get the Earned Income Tax Credit, due to a provision in a 1996 law."

Taken in its entirety it's clear they are referring to TIN filers not SSN filers.  I'm going to leave it to you to try figure out the difference.

The quote about illegal immigrants costing more in benefits than they pay in taxes comes from the Politifact article you cited.  Read it again!

On the second point, the Politifact article uses multiple sources to determine how truthful or false a political statement is. There are other references in that same article which claim illegal immigration isonly net-negative at the local and state level, and positive at the federal level. And that in the long-run, all immigration is net positive. It's also important to understand why illegal immigration is negative at the state local level vs native born citizens. I already brought this up.

On the first point, you claim:

Quote
"Regardless of immigration status, ITIN filers are not eligible for Social Security. According to the Social Security Administration, undocumented immigrants doled out an estimated $12 billion in payroll taxes but will never get the benefits. Also, ITIN filers canít get the Earned Income Tax Credit, due to a provision in a 1996 law."

Taken in its entirety it's clear they are referring to TIN filers not SSN filers.  I'm going to leave it to you to try figure out the difference.

At this point I must conclude that you are allergic to doing your own research. So in the interest of your continued good health, I'll do it for you.

Here is the primary source:
https://www.ssa.gov/oact/NOTES/pdf_notes/note151.pdf

And here is the relevant quote:
Question: What is the dollar amount of payroll
taxes paid by unauthorized workers and their
employers for the latest tax year?

Response: We estimate $13 billion in OASDI payroll
taxes from unauthorized immigrant workers
and their employers in 2010. This number reflects
earnings for those with no recorded SSN, those
who have obtained an SSN with fraudulent identification,
and those with legitimate SSNs who have
overstayed temporary visas
.


"Lethargy bordering on sloth remains the cornerstone of our investment style."
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LC

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Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2018, 12:07:37 PM »
On the benefits discussion, the SSA does not quantify it, but from the same SSA memo:

Quote
Question: How many unauthorized workers
receive benefits from Social Security? How many
fall under the category of overstayed visa or an
SSN obtained through illegitimate means? What is
their benefit level, their insured status, and the total
amount of benefits they receive compared to authorized
workers? What are the trends over time? How
will these trends change in the future?
Response: Individuals who enter the country as
unauthorized immigrants and remain in that status
for life are relatively unlikely to receive benefits
from the OASDI program. Those who work in the
underground economy have no basis for expecting
to be entitled for benefits. Those who have worked
and paid payroll taxes without a matched SSN will
have had their earnings placed in the suspense file
and will have only a relatively remote possibility
of obtaining credit for these earnings for the purpose
of becoming entitled to a benefit. The relatively
small and declining number of unauthorized
immigrants who have an SSN with earnings credited
in their name, may receive benefits in the
future. However, to receive benefits they must
meet the following three conditions: (1) work long
enough to acquire insured status under the program;
(2) receive legal work authorization at some
time; and (3) receive legal resident status for the
time of their benefit entitlement or, if not, are willing
to leave the U.S. to receive a benefit.
ē Question: What categories of persons, who are or
were unauthorized workers, may be eligible for
benefits if they can document past earnings? To
what degree are they successful in documenting
such earnings?
Response: We estimate about 30 percent of the
other immigrants who were living in the U.S. and
were age 62 in 2000, would be eligible to receive
retired-worker benefits. We project that the percent
eligible to receive a retired-worker benefit will
decline to around 10 percent at the end of the 75-
year projection period. In addition, SSA authorized
about 0.5 million checks to persons living abroad
in December 2010. However, most of these individuals
are U.S. citizens living abroad or persons
receiving benefits under totalization agreements
with other countries (based on authorized work).

In terms of benefits, do you have the full payout of benefits going to illegal immigrants? I can't find a source. The one I did find was flawed: it took average receipts net of average payouts (for all people in the US) and applied that to the # of illegal immigrants, without removing fixed costs such as defense spending.


"Lethargy bordering on sloth remains the cornerstone of our investment style."
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