Corner of Berkshire & Fairfax Message Board

General Category => Politics => Topic started by: MarkS on September 11, 2018, 03:10:46 PM

Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: MarkS on September 11, 2018, 03:10:46 PM
Illegal immigrants have used about 39 million stolen security numbers - many of the numbers are stolen from kids because of the often long delay before discovery. So much for the victimless crime theory.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/washington-secrets/illegal-immigrants-cited-in-theft-of-39-million-social-security-numbers
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: cubsfan on September 11, 2018, 03:32:31 PM
Of course - it's no problem for the unhinged left.

If you or I did that - it would be a felony and our careers would be ruined - and we would go to jail.

But if you are an illegal alien - hey - it's no problem ! Because people like Jerry Brown and Rob Emmanuel are there to "serve you" for your illegal vote.

An enormous double standard that will get ever worse.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: LC on September 11, 2018, 03:41:23 PM
Quote
The Immigration Reform Law Institute said that from 2012 to 2016 there were “39 million instances where names and Social Security numbers on W-2 tax forms did not match the corresponding Social Security records.”

Symptom of the problem. 39 million illegal taxpayers.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: MarkS on September 11, 2018, 04:11:25 PM
Quote
The Immigration Reform Law Institute said that from 2012 to 2016 there were “39 million instances where names and Social Security numbers on W-2 tax forms did not match the corresponding Social Security records.”

Symptom of the problem. 39 million illegal taxpayers.

Along with fraudulent claims for tax credits.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2016/04/13/irs-admits-it-encourages-illegals-to-steal-social-security-numbers-for-taxes/#48bba27b4c04
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: LC on September 11, 2018, 04:22:20 PM
4.2B of "fraudulent" tax claims (not really fraudulent, just undocumented)

However a link from your same article says this:

Quote
According to the Social Security Administration, undocumented immigrants doled out an estimated $12 billion in payroll taxes but will never get the benefits

So on the balance, Uncle Same is in the black?
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: MarkS on September 11, 2018, 04:47:19 PM
LC

I would think that the c!aims for unearned tax credits are probably fraudulent.   You're confusing ITIN filers with Social Security number filers when you talk about not receiving social security payments.  ITIN filers are normally LLCs, partnerships etc. that are not eligible for social security. I'm far more okay with illegals using ITINs instead of using stolen social security numbers.  As succinctly stated by Cubsfan, we would be rotting in jail for using stolen numbers. But if you're a Mexican national or a Honduran National it's not only okay its promoted by the social justice warrior class.

Besides even if they pay taxes - illegals imo are costing the American taxpayers more than they receive back in taxes. See Topic: Do illegal immigrants cost the American Taxpayer? 
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: cubsfan on September 11, 2018, 05:15:15 PM
About 1/3 of California's budget goes to social services these days - the illegal immigrants are an enormous burden on the state.
But it's done to keep CA democratic - and the left has taken this success to enact complete irrational policy initiatives:
sanctuary cities (to include felons!!), state voting and driver's license id's based on their word, lower state tuitions for illegal immigrants vs citizens.
It's completely crazy.

And it's spilling over to Chicago - a democratically controlled city (for 70 yrs!) that has the worst murder problem in the country.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: fareastwarriors on September 11, 2018, 05:35:09 PM
Illegal aliens don't vote  and likely drain way more revenue than pay in taxes.  Why is it a benefit for Democratic Party to encourage the growth of illegals?
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: cubsfan on September 11, 2018, 05:40:17 PM
Illegal aliens don't vote  and likely drain way more revenue than pay in taxes.  Why is it a benefit for Democratic Party to encourage the growth of illegals?

Illegals can easily vote with fake id's - in return the Democratic Party in CA and IL promise lots of expanded social services for them.
This has been a clear strategy started in California - and has permanently flipped CA to Democratic. It recently spread to NV and NM
and the hope it will continue to Texas and the rest of the Southwest.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: doc75 on September 11, 2018, 06:22:13 PM
Illegal aliens don't vote  and likely drain way more revenue than pay in taxes.  Why is it a benefit for Democratic Party to encourage the growth of illegals?

Illegals can easily vote with fake id's - in return the Democratic Party in CA and IL promise lots of expanded social services for them.
This has been a clear strategy started in California - and has permanently flipped CA to Democratic. It recently spread to NV and NM
and the hope it will continue to Texas and the rest of the Southwest.

This claim that "illegals are voting in droves" is commonly stated as fact, and equally commonly refuted as fiction.

Can you share any evidence of illegals voting under fake IDs in large numbers?  I thought Trump himself disbanded his committee looking into this because the problem essentially doesn't exist on any material scale.  But you are utterly convinced, so what evidence made you so convinced?

It's always struck me as a strange claim from a game theory point of view.  I would think the average illegal immigrant would want to stay as low profile as possible, and in particular avoid voluntary actions that require citizenship.  Sure, as a whole, the group may benefit by pushing Democrats into power... but people look out for themselves first, and it seems almost implausible that huge numbers would be taking on any additional risk to make their single vote count.   

Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: LC on September 11, 2018, 06:32:06 PM
You're confusing ITIN filers with Social Security number filers when you talk about not receiving social security payments.
Unfortunately you are incorrect. I am specifically talking about undocumented workers.

This is the primary article that the Forbes article you linked eventually sources:

https://news.vice.com/article/unauthorized-immigrants-paid-100-billion-into-social-security-over-last-decade

Unauthorized workers are paying an estimated $13 billion a year in social security taxes and only getting around $1 billion back, according to a senior government statistician.

Stephen Goss, the chief actuary of the Social Security Administration (SSA), told VICE News that an estimated 7 million people are currently working in the US illegally. Of those, he estimates that about 3.1 million are using fake or expired social security numbers, yet also paying automatic payroll taxes. Goss believes that these workers pay an annual net contribution of $12 billion to the Social Security Trust Fund.

The SSA estimates that unauthorized workers have paid a whopping $100 billion into the fund over the past decade. Yet as these people are in the US illegally, it is unlikely that they will be able to benefit from their contributions later in life.


Quote
Besides even if they pay taxes - illegals imo are costing the American taxpayers more than they receive back in taxes. See Topic: Do illegal immigrants cost the American Taxpayer?
As to your point on whether immigrants cost the US taxpayer, you can refer here:

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/jan/23/donald-trump/does-immigration-policy-impose-300-billion-annuall/

The main points are:
-The US gov't is running a deficit, the implication there is that ALL taxpayers are net-negative.
-"The evidence does not suggest that current immigrant flows cost native-born taxpayers money over the long-run nor does it provide support for the notion that lowering immigration quotas or stepping up enforcement of existing immigration laws would generate savings to existing taxpayers,"
-Negative costs to immigrants are born by local/state govt's, from educating the children of illegal immigrants. These children are described as follows: "members of the second generation "are among the strongest economic and fiscal contributors in the U.S. population," the report said, with tax contributions greater than their parents and the native-born population."


Therefore, I don't share your opinion that illegal immigrants are any more expensive than native born citizens. The fact that the major cost of illegal immigrants is education is actually a good thing. Education generates a higher ROI than medicare/medicaid & Social security (the primary expenditures of native born citizens). For that reason I could even argue that illegal immigrants are the preferred expenditure.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: cubsfan on September 11, 2018, 06:43:20 PM
Illegal aliens don't vote  and likely drain way more revenue than pay in taxes.  Why is it a benefit for Democratic Party to encourage the growth of illegals?

Illegals can easily vote with fake id's - in return the Democratic Party in CA and IL promise lots of expanded social services for them.
This has been a clear strategy started in California - and has permanently flipped CA to Democratic. It recently spread to NV and NM
and the hope it will continue to Texas and the rest of the Southwest.

This claim that "illegals are voting in droves" is commonly stated as fact, and equally commonly refuted as fiction.

Can you share any evidence of illegals voting under fake IDs in large numbers?  I thought Trump himself disbanded his committee looking into this because the problem essentially doesn't exist on any material scale.  But you are utterly convinced, so what evidence made you so convinced?

It's always struck me as a strange claim from a game theory point of view.  I would think the average illegal immigrant would want to stay as low profile as possible, and in particular avoid voluntary actions that require citizenship.  Sure, as a whole, the group may benefit by pushing Democrats into power... but people look out for themselves first, and it seems almost implausible that huge numbers would be taking on any additional risk to make their single vote count.

Well - here's how they get the voter id's - Jerry Brown passed a law to give undocumented illegals a driver license. Then they can simply use that
driver's license to get a voter id. There is not much of a fear among CA illegals - because there is no chance they will get deported, they are a protected class.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/california-motor-voter-act/

https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article207939584.html

Here in Illinois, illegals can get driver's license with no documentation. With that, you can get a voter's card. In Chicago, with no documentation, you
can get City identity card - and vote in any election.

I will let you decide if illegals are voting in large numbers. It's against the interest of the Democratic Party to prove their is voter fraud obviously.
You can use your common sense and decide it is happening. The Democratic Party wants these folks to become citizens and is providing them
social services. You have latino blocks and community organizers behind this push. You decide.

But - again - if you or I, as American citizens did this - we would be prosecuted and jailed with ruined lives.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: cubsfan on September 11, 2018, 06:55:12 PM

Therefore, I don't share your opinion that illegal immigrants are any more expensive than native born citizens. The fact that the major cost of illegal immigrants is education is actually a good thing. Education generates a higher ROI than medicare/medicaid & Social security (the primary expenditures of native born citizens). For that reason I could even argue that illegal immigrants are the preferred expenditure.

Oh my gosh - this is incredible. 80% of the current illegal immigrants are people from the poorest regions of Mexico and Honduras.
Lots of them are indigenous poor that don't even speak Spanish. It's so obvious these people are dirt poor. They suck up huge
amounts of California's social services. They don't speak English. The schools in California are ranked 49th in the country, they are so
over burden with the poor.

1/3 of the nation's welfare recipients live in California and 23% of Californians live below the poverty line. 50% of the population don't pay income taxes.

If your "theory" is correct - we should let millions of them in as they will boost our economy!
Maybe we should even kick all the rich people out - as the country will be so much better off!

You can't be serious?

Is this a place you would want to send your kids to school?
Why do you think so many middle class families are leaving California?
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: LC on September 11, 2018, 07:16:41 PM
If your "theory" is correct - we should let millions of them in as they will boost our economy!

Isn't this how America was built?

I'll just requote the relevant selection from my post because repetition is a decent way to learn:

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/jan/23/donald-trump/does-immigration-policy-impose-300-billion-annuall/

-"The evidence does not suggest that current immigrant flows cost native-born taxpayers money over the long-run nor does it provide support for the notion that lowering immigration quotas or stepping up enforcement of existing immigration laws would generate savings to existing taxpayers,"
-Negative costs to immigrants are born by local/state govt's, from educating the children of illegal immigrants. These children are described as follows: "members of the second generation "are among the strongest economic and fiscal contributors in the U.S. population," the report said, with tax contributions greater than their parents and the native-born population."

Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: LC on September 11, 2018, 07:21:06 PM
In fact, the earliest European immigrants were EXACTLY what you describe, cubsfan:

Quote
In 1607 the first successful English colony settled in Jamestown, Virginia. Once tobacco was found to be a profitable cash crop, many plantations were established along the Chesapeake Bay in Virginia and Maryland.

Thus began the first and longest era of immigration, lasting until the American Revolution in 1775; during this time settlements grew from initial English toe-holds from the New World to British America. It brought Northern European immigrants, primarily of British, German, and Dutch extraction. The British ruled from the mid-17th century and they were by far the largest group of arrivals, remaining within the British Empire. Over 90% of these early immigrants became farmers.[1]

Large numbers of young men and women came alone as indentured servants. Their passage was paid by employers in the colonies who needed help on the farms or in shops. Indentured servants were provided food, housing, clothing and training but they did not receive wages. At the end of the indenture (usually around age 21) they were free to marry and start their own farms.[2]

Thanks for making a great point!
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: cubsfan on September 11, 2018, 07:29:41 PM
You're a really joke LC - I want what is best for the citizens of California and the United States.
I want their lives to be better - better schools, lower taxes, more jobs, less crime, etc.

Take care of our US citizens first. California is being destroyed by illegal immigration.

You are advocating allowing the poorest and most crime ridden candidates to immigrate ILLEGALLY -  because it's good for the country!
Yea, let's kick out all the rich people! That will make the country better!

Ridiculous!
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: doc75 on September 11, 2018, 07:52:58 PM

Well - here's how they get the voter id's - Jerry Brown passed a law to give undocumented illegals a driver license. Then they can simply use that
driver's license to get a voter id. There is not much of a fear among CA illegals - because there is no chance they will get deported, they are a protected class.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/california-motor-voter-act/

https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article207939584.html

Here in Illinois, illegals can get driver's license with no documentation. With that, you can get a voter's card. In Chicago, with no documentation, you
can get City identity card - and vote in any election.

I will let you decide if illegals are voting in large numbers. It's against the interest of the Democratic Party to prove their is voter fraud obviously.
You can use your common sense and decide it is happening. The Democratic Party wants these folks to become citizens and is providing them
social services. You have latino blocks and community organizers behind this push. You decide.

I'm not questioning how one might go about voting.  It doesn't seem to be very difficult at all.

It's not up to me to "decide" whether people are voting in large numbers.  It's either true or it isn't.  The lack of evidence would seem to imply it isn't.  That's just common sense.  It's not like people haven't been searching for such evidence.  Trump himself commanded some people to look into it, convinced he'd find it.  He apparently did not. 

Maybe there really is evidence.  I don't know.  I asked you for it and you responded with "You can use your common sense and decide", along with a couple more unsubstantiated claims to fit your narrative.  So again:  If this is such an obvious and pervasive problem, then where is the evidence?

I'm not American.  I live far from California and have no concept of the realities of life there or most anywhere else in the US.  I just want to know why you are so sure of your own convictions without evidence. 
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: cubsfan on September 11, 2018, 08:04:08 PM
Doc - my answer to you is believe what you want. I told you the problem - That a democratic state like CA or IL is not going to investigate voter fraud
when it is clearly not in their interest?  They just aren't.

Perhaps not being familiar with US politics, you miss the fundamental insight that I never mentioned - for which I apologize.
The Democratic party is the party of "big government", socialization - a belief that most aspects of life in the US should be decided and controlled by gov.
The Republican Party is the part of  "limited government" - let private enterprise and individuals  decide what's best - regulate only the most egregious behavior.

That's fundamental in US politics.

I have no evidence for you.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: doc75 on September 11, 2018, 08:27:20 PM
Doc - my answer to you is believe what you want. I told you the problem - That a democratic state like CA or IL is not going to investigate voter fraud
when it is clearly not in their interest?  They just aren't.

Perhaps not being familiar with US politics, you miss the fundamental insight that I never mentioned - for which I apologize.
The Democratic party is the party of "big government", socialization - a belief that most aspects of life in the US should be decided and controlled by gov.
The Republican Party is the part of  "limited government" - let private enterprise and individuals  decide what's best - regulate only the most egregious behavior.

That's fundamental in US politics.

I have no evidence for you.

I understand the essential differences between the Democratic and Republican parties.  I'm from Canada, not Jupiter. ;)

I also understand that the state gov't may not want to look into voter fraud if it is not in their interest to do so.  But it certainly would be in the interest of Republicans, both state and national, to establish some evidence of this widely-claimed fraud.  And yet it doesn't appear to exist.  So isn't the most logical explanation that voter fraud is not nearly as big a problem as you have chosen to believe?

Do you think there is widespread fraud in presidential elections, too?  Because in that case you know for sure that people have been looking for evidence.

Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: cubsfan on September 11, 2018, 08:35:02 PM
Of course it's in the interests of Republicans to establish voter fraud - but it can't happen - because the voter fraud is being done legally
and Republicans have no legislative power to change it. CA and ILL have been Democratically controlled for more years than I can remember.

Do I think illegal immigrants are voting in Presidential elections?   Yes, I do - but only in those states that make it very easy to do so.
Most states have very tight voter registration laws - like - you have to prove you are a US citizen - that's a novel concept - just not in
places like IL and CA. Most of Middle America actually respects the rule of law.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: DTEJD1997 on September 11, 2018, 08:47:26 PM
Hey all:

Just to chime in on the voter fraud...

There is most certainly voter fraud going on...there is simply no doubt to that.

The real question is "how much" is going on.

One of the problems with investigating voter fraud is that if it is successful, there is virtually no record or evidence.

Sometimes though, there are some tell tale signs...

For instance, more votes than registered voters in a district.

OR

A 100% or 99.9% vote for a certain candidate through districts.  There were reports of this happening for Obama in minority districts in OH & PA.  No doubt Obama would carry the vote, win, and WIN BIG.  HOWEVER, you can't tell me that Mitt Romney would not get even get 1/2 of 1% of the vote in a district?  That somebody (elderly) might get confused and vote for the "wrong" person?  That out of several thousand black voters, there is NOT even 1 Republican voter?  That Obama would outscore Romney 19,000+ to zero?  I think these margins were even greater than what Saddam Hussein got when he was in charge of Iraq.
 
Please see:
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/20121112_In_59_Philadelphia_voting_wards__Mitt_Romney_got_zero_votes.html?arc404=true

In Detroit, which may be arguably more "black" than Philadelphia, Hillary got about 96% of the vote compared to about 3% for Trump.  Pretty lopsided results...but maybe?


OR

In the 2016 election, many districts in Michigan could not be recounted because there were problems with the ballots.  Please see:

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2016/12/18/detroit-ballots-vote-recount-election-stein/95570866/

Of course, everybody in charge of elections and part of the establishment say it is human error, statistical problems, machine malfunction, etc.  NEVER VOTER FRAUD.
Of course, that is pretty much exactly what you would expect them to say/do.

As for illegals voting, there are MILLIONS of them in the country.  There is simply NO WAY that NONE of them voted.  Now was it 1 in a million, 1 in a 100,000, or 1 in a 100?

So I would argue that there is most definitely voter fraud going on.  To the extent that it exists, is it enough to change outcomes?  Hard to say.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: Parsad on September 11, 2018, 10:07:12 PM
Of course it's in the interests of Republicans to establish voter fraud - but it can't happen - because the voter fraud is being done legally
and Republicans have no legislative power to change it. CA and ILL have been Democratically controlled for more years than I can remember.

Do I think illegal immigrants are voting in Presidential elections?   Yes, I do - but only in those states that make it very easy to do so.
Most states have very tight voter registration laws - like - you have to prove you are a US citizen - that's a novel concept - just not in
places like IL and CA. Most of Middle America actually respects the rule of law.

I agree 100% with Cubsfan that illegal immigrants should not have the ability to participate as voters in government elections...whether they are Federal, State or Municipal. 

That being said, all of the major intelligence organizations in the U.S., including CIA, NSA, FBI, Director of National Intelligence, House Intelligence, Senate Intelligence, Justice Department, and Department of Homeland Security all say that Russia is influencing voting in the U.S.  I'm sure Cubsfan would agree 100% with the President enacting any and all powers to combat this. 

Cheers!
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: fareastwarriors on September 11, 2018, 10:56:56 PM
What is the solution?
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: Investor20 on September 12, 2018, 12:48:45 AM
Obama himself said his campaign was hacked during 2008 elections.  But he also said everyone is getting hacked. 

Why Trump is being investigated in 2018 for something that is happening since 2008?

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/29/us/politics/29obama.text.html

"But between August and October, hackers gained access to emails and a range of campaign files, from policy position papers to travel plans. And we worked closely with the CIA -- with the FBI and the Secret Service and hired security consultants to restore the security of our systems."

Instead of focusing on this:

"In short, America's economic prosperity in the 21st century will depend on cybersecurity."

or this:

"Yet we know that cyber intruders have probed our electrical grid and that in other countries cyber attacks have plunged entire cities into darkness."

or this:

"It's been estimated that last year alone cyber criminals stole intellectual property from businesses worldwide worth up to $1 trillion."
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: Parsad on September 12, 2018, 12:55:35 AM
Obama himself said his campaign was hacked during 2008 elections.  But he also said everyone is getting hacked. 

Why Trump is being investigated in 2018 for something that is happening since 2008?

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/29/us/politics/29obama.text.html

"But between August and October, hackers gained access to emails and a range of campaign files, from policy position papers to travel plans. And we worked closely with the CIA -- with the FBI and the Secret Service and hired security consultants to restore the security of our systems."

Instead of focusing on this:

"In short, America's economic prosperity in the 21st century will depend on cybersecurity."

or this:

"Yet we know that cyber intruders have probed our electrical grid and that in other countries cyber attacks have plunged entire cities into darkness."

or this:

"It's been estimated that last year alone cyber criminals stole intellectual property from businesses worldwide worth up to $1 trillion."

Trump isn't being investigated for his campaign or Hillary's campaign being hacked, but that his campaign committee may have facilitated, organized or conducted meetings with Russian affiliates to influence elections.  Cheers!
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: MarkS on September 12, 2018, 05:41:49 AM
LC

First thanks for proving my point about illegal immigrants taking more than they contribute.  The article that you cited multiple times clearly states: "...members of the first, second, and third generations on average all cost more than they pay..." .

The fact that we all (citizens and illegals) take more than we contribute is cold comfort.

BTW you were confused between SSN filers and TIN filers.  You just changed your argument to hide the confusion.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: Gregmal on September 12, 2018, 05:44:00 AM
Obama himself said his campaign was hacked during 2008 elections.  But he also said everyone is getting hacked. 

Why Trump is being investigated in 2018 for something that is happening since 2008?

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/29/us/politics/29obama.text.html

"But between August and October, hackers gained access to emails and a range of campaign files, from policy position papers to travel plans. And we worked closely with the CIA -- with the FBI and the Secret Service and hired security consultants to restore the security of our systems."

Instead of focusing on this:

"In short, America's economic prosperity in the 21st century will depend on cybersecurity."

or this:

"Yet we know that cyber intruders have probed our electrical grid and that in other countries cyber attacks have plunged entire cities into darkness."

or this:

"It's been estimated that last year alone cyber criminals stole intellectual property from businesses worldwide worth up to $1 trillion."

Sounds like it's a no brainer to be long cyber security stocks
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: LC on September 12, 2018, 06:57:30 AM
LC

First thanks for proving my point about illegal immigrants taking more than they contribute.  The article that you cited multiple times clearly states: "...members of the first, second, and third generations on average all cost more than they pay..." .

The fact that we all (citizens and illegals) take more than we contribute is cold comfort.

BTW you were confused between SSN filers and TIN filers.  You just changed your argument to hide the confusion.

Which article is this? The vice article or the politifacts one?

Also, good to know you are either delusional or lack reading comprehension.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: MarkS on September 12, 2018, 07:10:44 AM
You cited the articles LC. You didn't read them?  I also love your insults -just proves that you've run out of good arguments.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: gfp on September 12, 2018, 07:27:18 AM
Of course - it's no problem for the unhinged left.

If you or I did that - it would be a felony and our careers would be ruined - and we would go to jail.

But if you are an illegal alien - hey - it's no problem ! Because people like Jerry Brown and Rob Emmanuel are there to "serve you" for your illegal vote.

An enormous double standard that will get ever worse.

It's true.  As Bob Dylan said, "When ya ain't got nothin', you got nothin' to lose"

If you or I used a made-up SSN and got caught, we would face consequences (I'm assuming you are documented here).  But an undocumented immigrant filling out a made-up Social Security Number that doesn't match the name on a job application probably isn't going to be tracked down and punished (outside of losing the job if they are found out).

There a quite a few instances where people with literally nothing to lose do not have the same risk of loss as someone like me, who has a career, a reputation, a credit rating, limits on my liability insurances, etc...  I still wouldn't trade places in exchange for those "freedoms" though.

It seems to me that a lot of the anti-illegal immigrant crusaders don't seem to grasp that there is no viable legal path for Central Americans fleeing violence and corruption in their home counties - willing to risk extreme personal danger to try to make it into the USA for a chance at a better life.  People are always telling me, "just do it legally and we won't have a problem with you."  These are always people who do not know the reality of a Central American literally running for their life.  Its not a pleasant, safe, or affordable journey.  Think about what would justify such an undesirable and dangerous trip.

Has anyone on this forum ever lost out on a job because an undocumented immigrant was picked over them?  I would bet not.  But I do see thousands of unfilled jobs in agriculture, truck driving, roofing and virtually every other corner of the construction industry.

Don't fear the brown folks.  They just want to support their family, pay their taxes, and be a part of their community.  Just like you.  (well they may want to pay their taxes more than you, but I don't know that for sure)
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: cubsfan on September 12, 2018, 07:52:06 AM
Of course - it's no problem for the unhinged left.

If you or I did that - it would be a felony and our careers would be ruined - and we would go to jail.

But if you are an illegal alien - hey - it's no problem ! Because people like Jerry Brown and Rob Emmanuel are there to "serve you" for your illegal vote.

An enormous double standard that will get ever worse.

It's true.  As Bob Dylan said, "When ya ain't got nothin', you got nothin' to lose"

If you or I used a made-up SSN and got caught, we would face consequences (I'm assuming you are documented here).  But an undocumented immigrant filling out a made-up Social Security Number that doesn't match the name on a job application probably isn't going to be tracked down and punished (outside of losing the job if they are found out).

There a quite a few instances where people with literally nothing to lose do not have the same risk of loss as someone like me, who has a career, a reputation, a credit rating, limits on my liability insurances, etc...  I still wouldn't trade places in exchange for those "freedoms" though.

It seems to me that a lot of the anti-illegal immigrant crusaders don't seem to grasp that there is no viable legal path for Central Americans fleeing violence and corruption in their home counties - willing to risk extreme personal danger to try to make it into the USA for a chance at a better life.  People are always telling me, "just do it legally and we won't have a problem with you."  These are always people who do not know the reality of a Central American literally running for their life.  Its not a pleasant, safe, or affordable journey.  Think about what would justify such an undesirable and dangerous trip.

Has anyone on this forum ever lost out on a job because an undocumented immigrant was picked over them?  I would bet not.  But I do see thousands of unfilled jobs in agriculture, truck driving, roofing and virtually every other corner of the construction industry.

Don't fear the brown folks.  They just want to support their family, pay their taxes, and be a part of their community.  Just like you.  (well they may want to pay their taxes more than you, but I don't know that for sure)

You don't know anything about me. I have no fear of "brown people" - as my mother is a "brown" Latin American who came here when she was 19
and married my dad.  This topic of illegal immigration is widely discussed in my family.

When you willing break the law, it becomes easier and easier - than just entering the country legally. Of course many, many of these people
are dirt poor and searching for a better life. I have no issue with that - I have issue with ILLEGAL immigration. There are large amounts of
criminals involved in this immigration. 90% of our heroin comes over from Mexico. Large amounts of human trafficking. And of course, the
deteriorating conditions in Central and Southern California are strangling the state - and making life worse for Californian citizens -
wrecking their schools and diverting the bulk of California budget to social services. Central California is being hollowed out economically.

Legal immigration does not mean NO immigration. Why is it fair that you can just walk into our country by crossing the border in Mexico,
so that Barrack Obama can "catch and release" you - and you will never be deported?  My cousins would love to come to this country, but
they can't stay on anything but student visas or tourist visas without going through a laborious and expensive immigration attorney.
I guess I need to tell them to hop a bus to Mexico, walk across the border - and do it illegally. However, then they could never return to
see their families - so they aren't gonna do that. They choose to work the legal route.

It's the same for people from India and China what would make AWESOME citizens - they should be allowed in - not the large criminal
elements we have now. Mexico's policy is to "export their poor" to the US - so that the corrupt Mexican government does not have to do their
job - and take care of their citizens.

I have no fear of "brown" or "yellow" people, be they from Latin America, India or China.

I respect those that choose the legal route and respect our laws - and I welcome them here.
I've travel all over the world, but try hard to not break the laws of the host country I visit.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: MarkS on September 12, 2018, 08:01:37 AM
Hi globalfinancepartners,

I have a couple of questions for you.  These are sincere questions and not meant to be gotcha questions. 

First, you talk about "made up social security numbers."  You make it sound like a victimless act.  But you don't account for the use of stolen social security numbers, especially the numbers issued to children who won't realize that they have problems until they start applying for credit.  See the article cited in the first post on this topic.  Should the interests of foreign nationals trump the interests of citizens who have had their identities stolen?

Second, historically migrants from Latin America have come here primarily for economic reasons mainly to escape poverty.  This summer most of the Central American migrants elected to continue to the United State even after Mexico offered them refuge - which indicates to me that the historical trend continues.  The U.S. is currently running huge budget deficits and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.  It's also clear that illegal immigrants add to the deficit.  Since we are either unable or unwilling to pay for the promises we've already made to our citizens, does it make sense to make even more unpaid for promises to non-citizens?
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: gfp on September 12, 2018, 08:53:27 AM
In my experience the SSN is made up, which is why it’s not a match with the name if it happens to belong to somebody. I’m sure there is also someone “stealing” a matching pair and assuming the identity but that is not the norm. There are plenty of home grown criminals that steal identities this way. What is much more common in the immigrant community is they use a SSN but do not know the name, if any exists, that goes with it - hence the “no match” mentioned in the article. That’s why I distinguished between “stealing” a child’s identity - a scary sounding offense, but let’s be honest, they are not able to borrow under this stolen identity, they are depositing work credits into the victim’s SS account until found out. They will never receive the child’s SS benefits.  Is it bad?  Of course - it can cause a nightmare of paperwork and legal issues to sort out once discovered.

And, no, I do not believe the interests of undocumented immigrants should trump those of citizens.

It probably is true that immigrants add to the deficit. Much like all poor people add to the deficit. You might not be surprised, but the government even gave our adopted son a Medicaid card before we adopted him - when he had no identity or SSN. I don’t think they were supposed to do that!

I think the solution for people who are angered by undocumented immigrants crossing into our county illegally is to focus on reforming the system under which they could come in legally. Because borders are porous, wall or no wall. If there is no viable legal path they are going to keep doing it the same way.

The notion that they are dangerous in greater proportion to average low earning American citizens is incorrect in my opinion and experience. I’m not religious, but all of the Latin American immigrants I know are religious, family oriented people.  Not rapists or murderers, or even thiefs.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: LC on September 12, 2018, 09:16:12 AM
You cited the articles LC. You didn't read them?  I also love your insults -just proves that you've run out of good arguments.

No obviously I didn't read them, I just managed to quote the relevant parts out of sheer luck.

You on the other hand, simply make claims without reference or explanation.

For example, you haven't explained how I was "confused". You haven't cited which article you are referencing.

I imagine you are reading too many Trump tweets and adopting his style of logic.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: LC on September 12, 2018, 09:24:19 AM
Quote
I think the solution for people who are angered by undocumented immigrants crossing into our county illegally is to focus on reforming the system under which they could come in legally. Because borders are porous, wall or no wall. If there is no viable legal path they are going to keep doing it the same way.

Exactly.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: MarkS on September 12, 2018, 09:34:56 AM
LC

You quoted only the middle sentence of the following:

"Regardless of immigration status, ITIN filers are not eligible for Social Security. According to the Social Security Administration, undocumented immigrants doled out an estimated $12 billion in payroll taxes but will never get the benefits. Also, ITIN filers can’t get the Earned Income Tax Credit, due to a provision in a 1996 law."

Taken in its entirety it's clear they are referring to TIN filers not SSN filers.  I'm going to leave it to you to try figure out the difference.

The quote about illegal immigrants costing more in benefits than they pay in taxes comes from the Politifact article you cited.  Read it again! 
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: MarkS on September 12, 2018, 09:48:42 AM
Globalfinancepartners

Do you have evidence that illegals who have a job and a stolen SSN can't get credit?  From what I've read they can and it creates problems for kids when they apply for credit.

I've also noticed that neither you nor LC want to address the benefits illegal immigrants receive and how it increases our already bloated deficits.  Milton Friedman once wrote:

 "it's just obvious you can't have free immigration and a welfare state."
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: gfp on September 12, 2018, 10:26:15 AM
I think I'm just equally concerned about deficit spending on benefits for citizens who choose not to work and deficit spending on undocumented immigrants who do choose to work (and contribute payroll taxes, and sometimes even pay income taxes if they don't end up in the large 0% tax bracket).  Honestly, given the choice I would cut the benefits for the able bodied citizens who choose not to work before I would stress about the cost of hard working immigrants on the system.  Balancing the federal budget or not doesn't really effect my views on illegal immigration much.  I guess we can agree to disagree.  My family immigrated to this country less than 110 years ago and I don't feel any particular ownership over this land.  Except my few little squares, of course.  I built fences around those.

how do you make a smiley face on this thing?   :-)
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: LC on September 12, 2018, 11:51:35 AM
LC

You quoted only the middle sentence of the following:

"Regardless of immigration status, ITIN filers are not eligible for Social Security. According to the Social Security Administration, undocumented immigrants doled out an estimated $12 billion in payroll taxes but will never get the benefits. Also, ITIN filers can’t get the Earned Income Tax Credit, due to a provision in a 1996 law."

Taken in its entirety it's clear they are referring to TIN filers not SSN filers.  I'm going to leave it to you to try figure out the difference.

The quote about illegal immigrants costing more in benefits than they pay in taxes comes from the Politifact article you cited.  Read it again!

On the second point, the Politifact article uses multiple sources to determine how truthful or false a political statement is. There are other references in that same article which claim illegal immigration isonly net-negative at the local and state level, and positive at the federal level. And that in the long-run, all immigration is net positive. It's also important to understand why illegal immigration is negative at the state local level vs native born citizens. I already brought this up.

On the first point, you claim:

Quote
"Regardless of immigration status, ITIN filers are not eligible for Social Security. According to the Social Security Administration, undocumented immigrants doled out an estimated $12 billion in payroll taxes but will never get the benefits. Also, ITIN filers can’t get the Earned Income Tax Credit, due to a provision in a 1996 law."

Taken in its entirety it's clear they are referring to TIN filers not SSN filers.  I'm going to leave it to you to try figure out the difference.

At this point I must conclude that you are allergic to doing your own research. So in the interest of your continued good health, I'll do it for you.

Here is the primary source:
https://www.ssa.gov/oact/NOTES/pdf_notes/note151.pdf

And here is the relevant quote:
Question: What is the dollar amount of payroll
taxes paid by unauthorized workers and their
employers for the latest tax year?

Response: We estimate $13 billion in OASDI payroll
taxes from unauthorized immigrant workers
and their employers in 2010. This number reflects
earnings for those with no recorded SSN, those
who have obtained an SSN with fraudulent identification,
and those with legitimate SSNs who have
overstayed temporary visas
.


Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: LC on September 12, 2018, 12:07:37 PM
On the benefits discussion, the SSA does not quantify it, but from the same SSA memo:

Quote
Question: How many unauthorized workers
receive benefits from Social Security? How many
fall under the category of overstayed visa or an
SSN obtained through illegitimate means? What is
their benefit level, their insured status, and the total
amount of benefits they receive compared to authorized
workers? What are the trends over time? How
will these trends change in the future?
Response: Individuals who enter the country as
unauthorized immigrants and remain in that status
for life are relatively unlikely to receive benefits
from the OASDI program. Those who work in the
underground economy have no basis for expecting
to be entitled for benefits. Those who have worked
and paid payroll taxes without a matched SSN will
have had their earnings placed in the suspense file
and will have only a relatively remote possibility
of obtaining credit for these earnings for the purpose
of becoming entitled to a benefit. The relatively
small and declining number of unauthorized
immigrants who have an SSN with earnings credited
in their name, may receive benefits in the
future. However, to receive benefits they must
meet the following three conditions: (1) work long
enough to acquire insured status under the program;
(2) receive legal work authorization at some
time; and (3) receive legal resident status for the
time of their benefit entitlement or, if not, are willing
to leave the U.S. to receive a benefit.
• Question: What categories of persons, who are or
were unauthorized workers, may be eligible for
benefits if they can document past earnings? To
what degree are they successful in documenting
such earnings?
Response: We estimate about 30 percent of the
other immigrants who were living in the U.S. and
were age 62 in 2000, would be eligible to receive
retired-worker benefits. We project that the percent
eligible to receive a retired-worker benefit will
decline to around 10 percent at the end of the 75-
year projection period. In addition, SSA authorized
about 0.5 million checks to persons living abroad
in December 2010. However, most of these individuals
are U.S. citizens living abroad or persons
receiving benefits under totalization agreements
with other countries (based on authorized work).

In terms of benefits, do you have the full payout of benefits going to illegal immigrants? I can't find a source. The one I did find was flawed: it took average receipts net of average payouts (for all people in the US) and applied that to the # of illegal immigrants, without removing fixed costs such as defense spending.


Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: cubsfan on September 12, 2018, 12:10:00 PM

The quote about illegal immigrants costing more in benefits than they pay in taxes comes from the Politifact article you cited.  Read it again!

Of course this has to be true - just look at California - which has the largest population of illegals:

- 50% of Californians don't pay ANY income taxes
- 23% of Californians live below the poverty line
- 33% of Californians are on welfare

Of course they are sucking up all the states social services and are taxing the resources of the state.
In the 70's California schools ranked about 15th in the nation - now they are 49th!

And the state taxes are incredible - yet the problem gets worse.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: SharperDingaan on September 12, 2018, 01:46:42 PM
You might want to consider a recently dead person suddenly being resusitated, and claiming benefits until he/she 'officially' dies (about 18 months).
A very common phenomenon in many coastal areas of Europe  ::)

SD


Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: Gregmal on September 12, 2018, 04:05:24 PM
https://nypost.com/2018/09/12/mollie-tibbetts-murder-suspect-wants-government-to-fund-his-legal-battle/

Of course he does...
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: MarkS on September 12, 2018, 04:42:05 PM
LC

Here are two Politifact articles on the subject both deal with claims made by the Trump administration.
 
Trump claimed that illegal immigrants cast the taxpayer about 113 billion a year.  Politifact gave it a mostly false reasoning that Trump presented the number as a hard fact and not the high end of an estimate.  https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/sep/01/donald-trump/donald-trump-says-illegal-immigration-costs-113-bi/
Politifact couldn't claim that immigrants were a net positive.  They could only quibble about how much illegal immigrants cost taxpayers.

Similarly here is the conclusion from the Politifact article you cited:
-----------
"Our ruling
 
The White House claimed that "current immigration policy imposes as much as $300 billion annually in net fiscal costs on U.S. taxpayers."

A study from the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine analyzed the fiscal impact of immigration under different scenarios. Under some assumptions, the fiscal burden was $279 billion, but $43 billion in other scenarios.

The report also found that U.S.-born children with at least one foreign-born parent are among the strongest economic and fiscal contributors, thanks in part to the spending by local governments on their education.

The statement is partially accurate but leaves out important details. We rate it Half True. "
-----------
Again the Politifact article you cite also does not claim that illegal immigrants are a net positive. 

I never claimed that illegals were receiving social security benefits. So I have no idea what you're talking about as to the rest of your posts.

I love your insults.  Keep them coming!  I shall wear them as a badge of honor.
















https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/jan/23/donald-trump/does-immigration-policy-impose-300-billion-annuall/
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: LC on September 12, 2018, 09:52:18 PM
So MarkS, to recap:

-I'll take your silence as acknowledgement that I was not "confused" as you claimed twice, regarding illegal immigrants with SSNs making SSA contributions.

-In terms of net cost/benefit of ALL immigrants, the article we now are both using references that immigrants are a net positive federally, and a net negative state/locally. I believe this is the primary source they are using:
http://www8.nationalacademies.org/onpinews/newsitem.aspx?RecordID=23550

This source however, is studying ALL immigration, not illegal immigration specifically. I imagine all groups of immigrants are net negative (as are all native born citizens on the average). However the overall immigrant flow is positive (when considering second and third generations). Additionally, if we classify defense spending as a fixed cost (i.e. does not go up with a marginal immigrant) then first-generation immigrants are LESS negative than native-born citizens.

Essentially, we have a situation as such:
-A large native, aging population which is drawing on federal benefits (SSA, medicare/medicaid).
-An immigrant population which is drawing on state/local benefits (schools).

We simply NEED young people to be educated, earn and pay taxes, to fund the benefits of the elderly. Education expenses contribute 40-50 years of tax income which is inflation linked. Healthcare and SSA expenses may add 10-15 years of tax income (I am guessing here) and that tax income is generally falling (retirement income).

Immigrants therefore supply a decent part of national growth due to two aspects: (1) higher birth rates coupled with (2) the "second-generation" effect which the articles we are referencing talk about. This is the explanation of the common sense stuff we were taught in grade school about the US being built by immigrants.

-In terms of Illegal immigration, it is a "problem" in some senses and a solution in others. Illegal immigrants contribute to SSA (and probably other forms of tax income) without receiving those benefits. But illegal immigrants also receive other benefits, you know, illegally.

I simply don't know the balance of each to judge the magnitude. Do you? I would love to see a source - it would get to the bottom of this rather quickly.

My guess? They are probably in-line with legal immigrants, or maybe slightly more negative (i.e., in line with native born citizens). In which case, the optimal solution is as folks have already stated on this thread: there should be a method to pesudo-legalize it, since (1) it will happen anyways, and (2) the profitability of second- and third- generations is worth it.

Quote
I love your insults.  Keep them coming!  I shall wear them as a badge of honor.
Or in the spirit of this topic you can pick up one of these:
https://www.reviewjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/web1_ccdc-tech_100314ev_017_4.jpg

 ;D ;D
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: MarkS on September 13, 2018, 04:55:56 AM
If anyone is interested, this report does a good job of breaking out the cost of illegal immigrants.  All reports of this nature rely on estimates.  You may disagree with some of their approaches.  Nevertheless it's still eye opening.

https://www.fairus.org/issue/publications-resources/fiscal-burden-illegal-immigration-united-states-taxpayers
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: cubsfan on September 13, 2018, 05:37:13 AM
If anyone is interested, this report does a good job of breaking out the cost of illegal immigrants.  All reports of this nature rely on estimates.  You may disagree with some of their approaches.  Nevertheless it's still eye opening.

https://www.fairus.org/issue/publications-resources/fiscal-burden-illegal-immigration-united-states-taxpayers

Nice find Mark.

A key line:  At the federal, state, and local levels, taxpayers shell out approximately $134.9 billion to cover the costs incurred by the presence of more than 12.5 million illegal aliens, and about 4.2 million citizen children of illegal aliens.

Oh, wait - according to the experts on CoBF - it's supposed to be a net positive !

No wonder states like CA and IL are in such trouble.

From report-

California -Total Cost of Illegal Aliens: $23,038,125,353
Illinois      -Total Cost of Illegal Aliens: $3,220,767,517
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: MarkS on September 13, 2018, 05:42:49 AM
Thanks cubsfan!

In case anyone thinks that illegals stealing identities is a victimless crime.

https://www.city-journal.org/html/illegal-more-ways-one-13089.html

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/04/illegal-immigrant-from-mexico-pleads-guilty-to-using-fake-identity-to-steal-361000-in-government-benefits.html

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/22562690/ns/technology_and_science-security/t/illegal-immigrants-turn-identity-theft/
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: cubsfan on September 13, 2018, 06:00:52 AM


In case anyone thinks that illegals stealing identities is a victimless crime.

https://www.city-journal.org/html/illegal-more-ways-one-13089.html



For those of you that are committed to being objective and open minded - this article posted by Mark is a must read.
If you talk to people in California - it's all so common.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: LC on September 13, 2018, 12:08:41 PM
If anyone is interested, this report does a good job of breaking out the cost of illegal immigrants.  All reports of this nature rely on estimates.  You may disagree with some of their approaches.  Nevertheless it's still eye opening.

https://www.fairus.org/issue/publications-resources/fiscal-burden-illegal-immigration-united-states-taxpayers

Well, there are a couple of issues with their approach, but the overall problem here is like you mention, almost everything is an estimate so it depends on your methodology. You can make it look real expensive or real cheap depending on how you account for certain costs.

That said, a couple of comments:
-The first major "flaw" of the FAIR estimates are that they only look at first generation illegal immigrants. Not really a flaw but if you think of immigration as an investment (i.e. pay to educate first-generation, make it back in second- and third- generations), you must do the accounting differently.
-The second flaw is that it is taking fixed costs, estimating the amount of illegal immigrants exposed to that fixed cost, and allocating that. Removing illegal immigrants will not make those costs do down. How exactly to treat this is a difficult subject because the nature of each cost is different.
-There are a bunch of "small potatoes" assumptions which are biased in the report. For example they cite a study that foreigners smoke 1/3 less cigarettes than the native born population, and apply that to estimate state cigarette tax receipts. This sounds like cherry-picking a study to justify shrinking tax receipts. They do the same thing with alcohol (assuming illegal immigrants prefer beer/wine to liquor).

The full report is here, actually:
https://www.fairus.org/sites/default/files/2017-09/Fiscal-Burden-of-Illegal-Immigration-2017.pdf

Regardless, it hasn't changed my mind regarding the general trends of immigration: first generation immigrants (illegal or not) cost the US money. So do old people on SSA and Medicare. I'd personally rather pay for young workers than old retirees.

I think the solution here is a pseudo-permanent status that allows working and tax receipts but clamps down on benefits. This also solves the problem of identity theft.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: randomep on September 13, 2018, 02:55:20 PM
Illegal aliens don't vote  and likely drain way more revenue than pay in taxes.  Why is it a benefit for Democratic Party to encourage the growth of illegals?

Illegals can easily vote with fake id's - in return the Democratic Party in CA and IL promise lots of expanded social services for them.
This has been a clear strategy started in California - and has permanently flipped CA to Democratic. It recently spread to NV and NM
and the hope it will continue to Texas and the rest of the Southwest.

So who here thinks that illegals would go to the polling booth (which in their mind would risk deportation) and try to influence a election. If you think so, can you tell me how many illegals votes there are? and how many is the minimum needed to influence a election (congress, or presidency or whatever)

There are so many ridiculously wrong things with this train of thought to me on the same lines as people who deny we went to the moon.


Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: cubsfan on September 13, 2018, 04:23:51 PM
Illegal aliens don't vote  and likely drain way more revenue than pay in taxes.  Why is it a benefit for Democratic Party to encourage the growth of illegals?

Illegals can easily vote with fake id's - in return the Democratic Party in CA and IL promise lots of expanded social services for them.
This has been a clear strategy started in California - and has permanently flipped CA to Democratic. It recently spread to NV and NM
and the hope it will continue to Texas and the rest of the Southwest.

So who here thinks that illegals would go to the polling booth (which in their mind would risk deportation) and try to influence a election. If you think so, can you tell me how many illegals votes there are? and how many is the minimum needed to influence a election (congress, or presidency or whatever)

There are so many ridiculously wrong things with this train of thought to me on the same lines as people who deny we went to the moon.

Well then, why in the world would they risk deportation by applying for a driver's license?
Why would they risk that Mr. genius?

Heck, they can ever commit felonies in California - and there is no risk they get deported!
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: LC on September 13, 2018, 07:21:36 PM
Well then, why in the world would they risk deportation by applying for a driver's license?
Why would they risk that Mr. genius?

Heck, they can ever commit felonies in California - and there is no risk they get deported!

Well, Mr. Dumbass, maybe it's partially because:

As of May 2017, twelve states (California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland, New Mexico, Nevada, Utah, Vermont, and Washington), the District of Columbia, and Puerto Rico have laws in their books that allow illegal immigrants to obtain a driver's license or some type of driving permit.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: cubsfan on September 13, 2018, 07:24:45 PM
Well then, why in the world would they risk deportation by applying for a driver's license?
Why would they risk that Mr. genius?

Heck, they can ever commit felonies in California - and there is no risk they get deported!

Well, Mr. Dumbass, maybe it's partially because:

As of May 2017, twelve states (California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland, New Mexico, Nevada, Utah, Vermont, and Washington), the District of Columbia, and Puerto Rico have laws in their books that allow illegal immigrants to obtain a driver's license or some type of driving permit.


No shit Sherlock -that's what I just said.

And with that drivers license, they can vote with no fear of deportation.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: LC on September 13, 2018, 08:34:08 PM
What the hell are you smoking? Please share it god dammit! It is a felony to vote in a federal election as a non-citizen. They absolutely risk deportation:


Pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 611, it is a crime – punishable by a fine and up to one year in prison – for an alien to vote in a federal election.
Pursuant to 8 U.S.C. § 1227, any alien who has voted in violation of any Federal, State, or local constitutional provision, statute, ordinance, or regulation is deportable.
Pursuant to 42 U.S.C. § 1973gg-10(2) any false statement concerning an applicant’s citizenship status that is made on a registration form submitted to election authorities is a crime.
Pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 911 knowing and willful false assertions of United States citizenship in order to vote are punishable by up to three years in prison.
Pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 1015(f) it is a criminal offense for an individual to make a false statement or claim that he or she is a citizen of the United States in order to register or to vote.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: Ross812 on September 13, 2018, 08:39:20 PM
12M undocumented immigrants is about 3% of the US population. Let's take CA as the example though because they have the highest percentage at 6% of the population. http://www.pewhispanic.org/interactives/unauthorized-immigrants/ (http://www.pewhispanic.org/interactives/unauthorized-immigrants/)

Now let's ignore the fact that it is a crime to vote if you are not a citizen and they vote at the same rate as Hispanic American citizens 38%. Then let's assume that 10% would vote for Republicans cause why not right? So now we have  2% of the population if CA voting illegally for Democrats. Now granted it is a travesty a worse case scenario of 2% of the CA population is voting illegally for Democrats, is it really turning the state from red to blue?

This has even less effect in the other 49 states.

Edit typos: my tiny hands cannot type on this smart phone thingy
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: cubsfan on September 14, 2018, 12:05:07 AM
What the hell are you smoking? Please share it god dammit! It is a felony to vote in a federal election as a non-citizen. They absolutely risk deportation:


Pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 611, it is a crime – punishable by a fine and up to one year in prison – for an alien to vote in a federal election.
Pursuant to 8 U.S.C. § 1227, any alien who has voted in violation of any Federal, State, or local constitutional provision, statute, ordinance, or regulation is deportable.
Pursuant to 42 U.S.C. § 1973gg-10(2) any false statement concerning an applicant’s citizenship status that is made on a registration form submitted to election authorities is a crime.
Pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 911 knowing and willful false assertions of United States citizenship in order to vote are punishable by up to three years in prison.
Pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 1015(f) it is a criminal offense for an individual to make a false statement or claim that he or she is a citizen of the United States in order to register or to vote.


Don't be naive LC - the Obama administration suspended many Federal illegal immigration laws with his countless executive orders.
You go get your drivers license, you get sign up for a vote card with a "pledge" you are a citizen resident - and you're in business.
No one got deported under Obama, certainly not in California/Illinois.

It's all part of President Obama's legacy - he destroyed the Democratic Party.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: MarkS on September 14, 2018, 07:01:46 AM

They're legitimate sources that claim illegal immigrants do in fact vote.   However, like most polarizing issues you can find other sources that take the opposite position.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jun/19/noncitizen-illegal-vote-number-higher-than-estimat/

Also the U.S. is one of a handful of countries that grants citizenship to people born here.  So any child born in the country is automatically a citizen even if the parents are illegal.  The democrats have also made it clear that a path to citizenship, which would include voting rights, is mandatory for any agreement on immigration reform.  Additionally, illegal immigrants are counted in the census and are used to determine the number of representatives for any given state.  Since we have no effective border,  I think people are justified in believing that voting power will change over time.

This article has some eye opening facts.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jun/4/illegal-immigrants-who-vote-not-tracked/

Although voting by non-citizens is theoretically a crime, in practice I doubt there is much risk involved in the practice.  Enforcing criminal statutes is for the most part a local activity.   In all of my years of voting I've never seen either a federal agent or a state trooper at a polling station.  The only police that I've ever seen are local cops.  A common feature  across sanctuary cities is a policy that local police are barred from asking people about their citizenship status.  Moreover, if police started to ask that question, they would quickly be accused by the ACLU of racial profiling.  So I'm not convince that criminal statutes by themselves present much of a deterrence.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: Ross812 on September 14, 2018, 08:31:33 AM
All I'm saying is let's not pretend undocumented immigrants are voting in the same proportion as citizens. There may be some data that suggests they are voting illegally and that is a problem I will agree, but it isn't swinging elections. There is just not enough undocumented immigrants as a % of the population for that to happen right now. Also, in California, the hot bed of all this illegally voting due to the issuance of drivers licenses, the driver's license you are issued if you cannot prove US citizenship is called an ab60. It cannot be used for ID at any federal facility and the option to register to vote is disabled at the DMV (Box is greyed out) and online. So it would seem these people may have a few more hoops to jump through to get into a polling place than just their ab60 license.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: MarkS on September 14, 2018, 08:54:42 AM
I don't live in California.  But as I understand it all you need is a utility bill as a form of ID.  https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/voting-resources/voting-california/what-bring/
If I'm mistaken, please let me know.

You're other assumption - that they're aren't enough illegal votes to matter doesn't account for close races like the Franken vs Coleman race in 2008,  which came down to about 300 votes.  As I remember, electing Franken gave the Dems enough of a margin to pass Obamacare. 
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: gfp on September 14, 2018, 09:08:30 AM
I took some time out of my day yesterday to take an illegal immigrant to a job interview.  He is 21 and from El Salvador, but still in High School.  He has a Social Security card that says, "valid for work only with DHS authorization" and a number.  It is a legitimate card, issued to illegal immigrants that have been allowed to work in this country, however temporarily.  I took him to Antoine's restaurant in the French Quarter and he got a job as a dishwasher paying $10/hour.  He will no doubt have deductions from his paycheck like all on-the-books employees.  Somehow I doubt he will ever collect on any of the programs those deductions go towards funding.

I just don't see this as one of the big problems facing our nation at the moment.  There are bigger issues that need attention than our neighbors seeking in to wash the dishes for $10/ hour.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: MarkS on September 14, 2018, 09:25:06 AM
That was awfully nice of you to take time out to help that young man.  But I have a question.  The SSN with that restriction is issued to aliens who are legally in the country.  You said he was illegal.  How did he get that card?
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: cubsfan on September 14, 2018, 09:49:56 AM
All I'm saying is let's not pretend undocumented immigrants are voting in the same proportion as citizens. There may be some data that suggests they are voting illegally and that is a problem I will agree, but it isn't swinging elections. There is just not enough undocumented immigrants as a % of the population for that to happen right now. Also, in California, the hot bed of all this illegally voting due to the issuance of drivers licenses, the driver's license you are issued if you cannot prove US citizenship is called an ab60. It cannot be used for ID at any federal facility and the option to register to vote is disabled at the DMV (Box is greyed out) and online. So it would seem these people may have a few more hoops to jump through to get into a polling place than just their ab60 license.

You're are underestimating the voting issue big time - look at the election results. Trump won a large state like Michigan by 12,000 votes.

Don't tell me that 12,000,000 illegal immigrants can not sway an election.

The Democrats message to their traditional working class strongholds: Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania - we don't care about you.
Trump won them by the narrowest of margins.

The American people repudiated the Obama agenda precisely because the Democratic Party is no longer the party of the working class.
Middle America has been hollowed out and left behind by Obama and the Democratic Party.

This election was a referendum on 2 things:  Jobs and Illegal immigration

Trump spoke directly to the working class about the 2 key issues they cared about: Bringing back jobs and Build the Wall.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: cubsfan on September 14, 2018, 09:53:59 AM
I took some time out of my day yesterday to take an illegal immigrant to a job interview.  He is 21 and from El Salvador, but still in High School.  He has a Social Security card that says, "valid for work only with DHS authorization" and a number.  It is a legitimate card, issued to illegal immigrants that have been allowed to work in this country, however temporarily.  I took him to Antoine's restaurant in the French Quarter and he got a job as a dishwasher paying $10/hour.  He will no doubt have deductions from his paycheck like all on-the-books employees.  Somehow I doubt he will ever collect on any of the programs those deductions go towards funding.

I just don't see this as one of the big problems facing our nation at the moment.  There are bigger issues that need attention than our neighbors seeking in to wash the dishes for $10/ hour.

You don't see it because you don't live in California, where the middle class is fleeing because crime is up and the schools have been ruined.
You should move to Bakersfield or Fresno, etc - you'll sing a different tune with the highest taxes in the country and the worst infrastructure and schools.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: DTEJD1997 on September 26, 2018, 10:11:24 PM
I don't live in California.  But as I understand it all you need is a utility bill as a form of ID.  https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/voting-resources/voting-california/what-bring/
If I'm mistaken, please let me know.

You're other assumption - that they're aren't enough illegal votes to matter doesn't account for close races like the Franken vs Coleman race in 2008,  which came down to about 300 votes.  As I remember, electing Franken gave the Dems enough of a margin to pass Obamacare.

I have been saying and seeing for years & years that there are more illegals (MILLIONS) in this country than most people think/realize.  In many parts of my life, I interact personally and professionally with warehouse workers/managers, restaurant workers, contractors, landscaping, and other "blue collar" professions. 

I would theorize that a lot of people "on the corner" have limited interaction with blue collar jobs/workers.  Thus, they think that number of illegals is much less than what it is because of limited interaction/exposure.

Recently, a study comes out with the conclusion that there are more illegals than previously thought.  Please see:

https://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/yale-study-finds-twice-as-many-undocumented-immigrants-as-previous-estimates

Now this is coming from Yale, so just keep that in mind!

Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: Cigarbutt on September 27, 2018, 05:17:05 AM
I have been saying and seeing for years & years that there are more illegals (MILLIONS) in this country than most people think/realize.  In many parts of my life, I interact personally and professionally with warehouse workers/managers, restaurant workers, contractors, landscaping, and other "blue collar" professions. 

I would theorize that a lot of people "on the corner" have limited interaction with blue collar jobs/workers.  Thus, they think that number of illegals is much less than what it is because of limited interaction/exposure.

Recently, a study comes out with the conclusion that there are more illegals than previously thought.  Please see:

https://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/yale-study-finds-twice-as-many-undocumented-immigrants-as-previous-estimates

Now this is coming from Yale, so just keep that in mind!
Thanks. That was a good read, even if coming from a 3rd rate institution. :)

Ages ago it seems, during formative years, I had to spend some time learning about public health concrete applications. A study had just came out suggesting the number of drivers on highways not respecting the legal high speed limit was much higher than previously thought. When asked about fixing the problem, I had responded that the law should simply be enforced (more police presence, higher speeding tickets). The wise mentor had added that perhaps the problem should be appraised from several angles as, with all phenomena, one has to try put himself or herself into the mind of the drivers.

Some thoughts:
-Study appears well done but first reflex when new conclusions fall outside of standard deviations is to double check or look for confirmation elsewhere.
-Rules and laws can be noble and rational but don't mean much if they are not applicable.
-If the "problem" is so huge and "tolerated" (although variably), it likely means that there are not only disadvantages and solutions are likely to be complex and require an open and constructive perspective.
-When assessing the dynamic positive and negative reinforcements of the issue, a way to decrease net migration is to make the US a less better place. However, this tool comes with undesirable side effects should be used carefully.

Question for wiser minds:
Somehow and recurrently, good plans seem to come up but never make it. Why?
https://www.cfr.org/sites/default/files/pdf/2009/08/Immigration_TFR63.pdf
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: randomep on September 27, 2018, 07:44:13 AM
Illegal aliens don't vote  and likely drain way more revenue than pay in taxes.  Why is it a benefit for Democratic Party to encourage the growth of illegals?

Illegals can easily vote with fake id's - in return the Democratic Party in CA and IL promise lots of expanded social services for them.
This has been a clear strategy started in California - and has permanently flipped CA to Democratic. It recently spread to NV and NM
and the hope it will continue to Texas and the rest of the Southwest.

So who here thinks that illegals would go to the polling booth (which in their mind would risk deportation) and try to influence a election. If you think so, can you tell me how many illegals votes there are? and how many is the minimum needed to influence a election (congress, or presidency or whatever)

There are so many ridiculously wrong things with this train of thought to me on the same lines as people who deny we went to the moon.

Well then, why in the world would they risk deportation by applying for a driver's license?
Why would they risk that Mr. genius?

Heck, they can ever commit felonies in California - and there is no risk they get deported!

It doesn't take a genius to understand that you cannot function w/o a license.  You get arrested everyday for driving w/o a license means you cannot make a living which defeats your purpose in coming to the USA.

There is no benefit for an illegal to go to a polling booth. See the big difference? I can't believe I have to explain this.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: cubsfan on September 27, 2018, 07:55:22 AM
Illegal aliens don't vote  and likely drain way more revenue than pay in taxes.  Why is it a benefit for Democratic Party to encourage the growth of illegals?

Illegals can easily vote with fake id's - in return the Democratic Party in CA and IL promise lots of expanded social services for them.
This has been a clear strategy started in California - and has permanently flipped CA to Democratic. It recently spread to NV and NM
and the hope it will continue to Texas and the rest of the Southwest.

So who here thinks that illegals would go to the polling booth (which in their mind would risk deportation) and try to influence a election. If you think so, can you tell me how many illegals votes there are? and how many is the minimum needed to influence a election (congress, or presidency or whatever)

There are so many ridiculously wrong things with this train of thought to me on the same lines as people who deny we went to the moon.

Well then, why in the world would they risk deportation by applying for a driver's license?
Why would they risk that Mr. genius?

Heck, they can ever commit felonies in California - and there is no risk they get deported!

It doesn't take a genius to understand that you cannot function w/o a license.  You get arrested everyday for driving w/o a license means you cannot make a living which defeats your purpose in coming to the USA.

There is no benefit for an illegal to go to a polling booth. See the big difference? I can't believe I have to explain this.

You are a fool brother. An illegal enters the country illegally. Then the illegal is afforded the privilege of getting a driver's license without any documentation.
With that driver's license, the illegal, then walks into a voting station, and can vote.

As mentioned by others - ICE is not hanging around voting booths looking to arrest illegals.

Though, it was a nice try on your part brother to try to explain to me something so stupid on your part.
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: MarkS on September 27, 2018, 08:02:36 AM
Randomep

Correct me if I'm wrong - But as I understand it in California all you need is a utility bill as a form of ID.  https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/voting-resources/voting-california/what-bring/
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: cubsfan on September 27, 2018, 08:24:36 AM
Illegal aliens don't vote  and likely drain way more revenue than pay in taxes.  Why is it a benefit for Democratic Party to encourage the growth of illegals?

Illegals can easily vote with fake id's - in return the Democratic Party in CA and IL promise lots of expanded social services for them.
This has been a clear strategy started in California - and has permanently flipped CA to Democratic. It recently spread to NV and NM
and the hope it will continue to Texas and the rest of the Southwest.

This claim that "illegals are voting in droves" is commonly stated as fact, and equally commonly refuted as fiction.

Can you share any evidence of illegals voting under fake IDs in large numbers?  I thought Trump himself disbanded his committee looking into this because the problem essentially doesn't exist on any material scale.  But you are utterly convinced, so what evidence made you so convinced?

It's always struck me as a strange claim from a game theory point of view.  I would think the average illegal immigrant would want to stay as low profile as possible, and in particular avoid voluntary actions that require citizenship.  Sure, as a whole, the group may benefit by pushing Democrats into power... but people look out for themselves first, and it seems almost implausible that huge numbers would be taking on any additional risk to make their single vote count.

As mentioned previous many times, there is little risk of deportation for voting - they get a voter ID without documentation and it's done.

ICE has been neutered by Obama. Immigration law was made toothless by his executive orders.

Of course, it's in their interests to vote with their ID's. They are promised many social services available to US citizens....They wield great political power as a group.
If there are 12-22 millions illegals in this country, why is it so hard to believe that 25 or 30% might be voting? Look what's at stake for them.

Do you actually believe that low profile means, they hide all day long?  They don't risk being out in public and living their lives like normal people?
They are sending their children to our school everyday, they are shopping and interacting with the public, they are going to work, they are using their
fake id's all the time to function in the country, they are banking in our banks.  What's the big deal about voting?



Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: randomep on September 27, 2018, 01:34:04 PM
Randomep

Correct me if I'm wrong - But as I understand it in California all you need is a utility bill as a form of ID.  https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/voting-resources/voting-california/what-bring/

why are you asking me this?
Title: Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers
Post by: MarkS on September 27, 2018, 02:20:54 PM
Randomep

Just pointing out how absurdly easy it is for illegals to vote in California.