Author Topic: Russia Investigation.  (Read 32482 times)

John Hjorth

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2018, 07:10:45 AM »
no_free_lunch,

As reply to your proposal, I refer to a post by Spekulatius in the tariffs topic:

Spekulatius has a good point about America's desire to extend and maintain its influence abroad.   Since we're hemorrhaging red ink perhaps it's time to reconsider our role in the world.  Here is a link to an article on why we should consider not protecting Europe any longer.  https://www.nationalinterest.org/feature/why-america-still-defending-europe-24957

Europeans don’t feel threatened. Right or wrong, but that’s what it is. US is free to pull their troops back, which they have been doing anyways over time. As long as  the US remains in the NATO, they would be obligated to help any nation within NATO that gets attacked, based on the NATO contract. If the US leaves the NATO, then that obligation ceases to exist.
”In the race of excellence … there is no finish line.”
-HH Sheikh Mohammed Bin Rashid Al Maktoum, Vice President and Prime Minister of the United Arab Emirates and Ruler of Dubai


Schwab711

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2018, 07:27:39 AM »
Not to ignore mueller

You are ignoring Mueller by focusing on the fake problem of the day. Trump illegally conspired. It's plain as day. Some of the crimes happened on national TV.

The pipeline deal has already been brought up ad nauseam over the past 6-12 months by German politicans and NATO allies. Trump is not ballsy for bringing this up, he's just causing problems.

Why the hell do people keep listening to Trump when all he's done is lie to you? It's like an abused wife or stockholm syndrome. I don't say that lightly.

The day before the Trump Tower meeting (the first day after the meeting date was confirmed!!), DCLeaks is set up to distribute DNC/DCCC/Padesta emails. The Trump Tower meeting happens the next day and they claim nothing happened during the meeting!?!?

Exactly one week later Rep McCarthy and Rep Ryan talk about RU dividing Ukraine against itself (which Manafort was presented as the mastermind of in his 40+ count indictment). Ryan called is "maniacal". McCarthy, one week after DCLeaks, said he thought "Putin paid Trump".

Dutch intel watched in real time as the DNC servers were hacked. They sent this info to the CIA directly (I think we went there but whatever). It was included in an indictment!! Dutch intel was willing to burn an absolutely huge honeypot to help our country and because of politics, some folks are like "well, what about those data transfer speeds?" The math on the data transfer speeds were wrong. The guy who wrote the blog ended up removing himself from his original opinion. US IC received the feeds so they could watch the dang act as it happened! Trump knew this! He still misled you about it. Now we know he was lying all this time and people will still believe his next bullshit comment.

Why don't you want answers from McConnell about why he prevented Obama from doing anything about this? Why don't you want answers from your party about why they nominated a candidate that was so obviously breaking the law and conspiring with a foreign adversary?

Why the hell does anyone still trust and support Trump? It's maniacal that some news shows tell listeners to hate Democrats/liberals/leftys multiple times an hour. That they are the cause of everything. It's a sick feedback loop.


Edit: Finally we also get some reprieve on the 'polls' issue. From the indictment we know, on July 6th, Julian Assange estimated Trump's odds of winning at about 25%. 538/Nate Silver reported 22.4% that day. NYT was at ~10% (using only national polls - little did they know that RU had just released the detailed DNC voter analytics one month prior. This is how RU 'meddled' in a few key Rust Belt states.).

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 07:43:06 AM by Schwab711 »

no_free_lunch

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2018, 07:42:46 AM »
John,

When I read your post, I am drawn to some sad conclusions.   Europe is not concerned by Russia so will not build adequate defense.  For the same reason the EU countries feel free to trade with Russia as they please.  If they are wrong, and Russia does violate their sovereignty they will just fall back on the US. 

Schwab711

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2018, 07:47:36 AM »
John,

When I read your post, I am drawn to some sad conclusions.   Europe is not concerned by Russia so will not build adequate defense.  For the same reason the EU countries feel free to trade with Russia as they please.  If they are wrong, and Russia does violate their sovereignty they will just fall back on the US.

The US trades with Russia everyday. An example of that trade is the fact that folks here are talking about buying Sberbank stock. If we didn't trade with them, it would be illegal to own that stock.

The point of sanctions is we don't want to cut-off the entire country. It's to punish Putin and alter his behavior. Same with Europe.

no_free_lunch

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2018, 07:49:37 AM »
Schwab, I don`t think that Russia is a fake problem of the day. I only bring up Russia because this entire thread is about Russia and the US.

I think the dems made a strategic error by inflating the Russian threat.  It forces people to look in detail at how countries and parties respond to Russia.  What I see is that the EU really doesnt care.  Everything the Europeans do indicates this and apparently they will tell you this too if you just ask them.   The Democrats didn`t really care about Russia before the election, it always seemed to be the Republicans pushing for defense spending to Ukraine.

If the threat is Russia and Trump is colluding with Russia then I will believe you when I see evidence that he is helping them.  However, in reality the US stands up to Russia and is doing what it can to counter them.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 07:51:39 AM by no_free_lunch »

no_free_lunch

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2018, 07:56:08 AM »
An oldie but a goodie.

Quote
With the peace process stalled and violence escalating in Ukraine, a bipartisan coalition in Congress is defying President Obama and European allies by pressing the administration to provide weapons to the embattled nation.
..
So far, the Obama administration has refused to provide lethal aid, fearing that it would only escalate the bloodshed and give President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia a pretext for further incursions.
..
Legislation to authorize lethal military aid for Ukraine has gone to the White House before, but Mr. Obama has not acted on it. And while this bill authorizes the weapons it cannot compel the administration to send them. The measure is largely meant to put renewed pressure on the White House.

Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona and the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, who has championed the effort to send arms to Ukraine for more than a year, dismissed the fears that it would worsen the conflict and unravel the international coalition.

I can see if you would agree with Obama on this, I dont want to debate the specifics.  However, it is madness to go from this stance to Republicans being pro Russian.   Before the election Dems were concerned the republicans would start ww3 and then suddenly they accuse them of being in bed with the enemy.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/12/world/europe/defying-obama-many-in-congress-press-to-arm-ukraine.html

Schwab711

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2018, 08:03:54 AM »
This was a huge issue during the election:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/30/us/politics/harry-reid-russia-tampering-election-fbi.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2016/10/30/harry-reid-says-comey-may-have-broken-the-law-by-disclosing-new-clinton-emails/?utm_term=.2f61a679e3a3

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/07/24/wikileaks-clinton-campaign-manager-robby-mook-intv-tapper-sotu.cnn

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fbi-warned-trump-2016-russians-would-try-infiltrate-his-campaign-n830596

https://themoscowproject.org/collusion/gang-12-receives-intel-briefings/

https://themoscowproject.org/collusion/trump-defends-putin-democrats-putting-emails/


From Clinton:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/06/us/politics/hillary-clinton-russia.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/hillary-clinton-accuses-trump-campaign-of-helping-russia-2016-election-2017-9

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-debate-russia-idUSKCN12K0E7

It's worth noting that during this time, Dems were the minority party in Congress, partisan polarization was bad, and by 10/30, Trump had already started using the phrase 'the election is rigged' (which he had rigged). If Dems had provided evidence during the campaign then there would have been absolute hell.

Edit: Looking at the URL headlines, I forgot how much the media downplayed Trump/Russia at the time. It's weird looking back at this.



Your quote doesn't describe that WW3 assumption at all. Sounds like Dems worried arming Ukraine would incite further violence. Republicans (pre-Manafort/Trump) thought arming would prevent that violence. Both seem like reasonable opinions.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 08:08:55 AM by Schwab711 »

doughishere

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2018, 08:48:30 AM »
An oldie but a goodie.

Quote
With the peace process stalled and violence escalating in Ukraine, a bipartisan coalition in Congress is defying President Obama and European allies by pressing the administration to provide weapons to the embattled nation.
..
So far, the Obama administration has refused to provide lethal aid, fearing that it would only escalate the bloodshed and give President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia a pretext for further incursions.
..
Legislation to authorize lethal military aid for Ukraine has gone to the White House before, but Mr. Obama has not acted on it. And while this bill authorizes the weapons it cannot compel the administration to send them. The measure is largely meant to put renewed pressure on the White House.

Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona and the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, who has championed the effort to send arms to Ukraine for more than a year, dismissed the fears that it would worsen the conflict and unravel the international coalition.

I can see if you would agree with Obama on this, I dont want to debate the specifics.  However, it is madness to go from this stance to Republicans being pro Russian.   Before the election Dems were concerned the republicans would start ww3 and then suddenly they accuse them of being in bed with the enemy.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/12/world/europe/defying-obama-many-in-congress-press-to-arm-ukraine.html

Good, were in agreement that its important to get to the bottom of the election rigging regardless of partisan differences.