Author Topic: Russia Investigation.  (Read 64240 times)

Schwab711

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #560 on: February 12, 2019, 11:46:00 AM »

Schwab:

Four quick points:

1). Your statement that it is only illegal to accept money from foreign governments is just plain wrong.
https://www.fec.gov/updates/foreign-nationals/

2).  As I understand Manafort's plea agreement, he plead guilty to charges stemming from his work with Ukraine, not Russia, long before his work with the Trump campaign. 

3). Your comment about going to the heart of the Trump investigation was an argument made concerning the enforcement of the plea agreement with Manafort.  It wasn't a claim that Manafort's guilty plea was proof against Trump.  It reflected the investigators frustration with Manafort over his not providing evidence against Trump in exchange for the plea deal. Specifically the investigators argued that Manafort's repeated lies were sufficient to void his plea agreement

4). If someone can't rely on news reports from supposedly reputable sources, then what are you relying on to make your allegations?
Moreover you're indirectly arguing that I must wait for the actual report before drawing any conclusions.  But aren't you drawing conclusions before reading the reports? 

Respectfully - color me unconvinced.

1. I didn't say it was only illegal, just that it was. I said it's not illegal to hire a non-US citizen in the sense that Steele was hired. Consider the fact that a campaign purchases various goods/services from foreign companies for campaign purposes. That is not illegal. It wasn't illegal for the Trump Campaign to have purchased "Make America Great Again" hats made in China. I'm not a lawyer and not nearly bright enough to point to the technical reasons differentiating the two other than to say they were clearly different situations. The direct offer from the sovereign country being an obvious difference.

2. Thus my "gets to the heart of the investigation" comment. Read the transcript. Ukraine Peace Plan, Russian sanctions, Deripaska, Russian trolls, Trump Tower Moscow, ect are all intertwined. Russian sanctions exist because of Crimea. They cannot be viewed in isolation.

3. It wasn't related to Trump. It was related to a specific lie made by Manafort. When explaining the "materiality" to the judge, Mueller's prosecutor said that the lie gets to the heart of the investigation. He was pointing out that it was more than merely meeting the minimum materiality hurdle.

4. In this thread, lately, I've only used court documents because there was too much pushback in past months that certain articles were "fake news" and thus unconvincing. I'm trying to remind folks that conspiracy isn't just a vague allegation but that the actual conspiracy is being proven in court every week. As this thread and point #2 shows, the conspiracy is broad and includes many actors. It will take awhile to go through all the legal steps to "prove it".


Cardboard

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #561 on: February 12, 2019, 12:15:23 PM »
Do the Liberals out here still have any critical judgement?

Isn't Barrack Obama who did not honour U.S. commitment to defend Ukraine after they accepted to give up their nuclear weapons?

Of course it got tricky since Russia had signed that same treaty and honouring it could have meant a direct war with Russia.

However, not only did he not defend Ukraine, he did not even want to provide them with anti-tank weaponry to defend themselves. Then Trump did...

I mean if you look at actions, it is truly Obama who seems to have given Putin all he could have ever wanted.

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cubsfan

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #562 on: February 12, 2019, 12:21:26 PM »
Putin made Obama look like a fool.

And of course, the Clintons had NO problem taking millions from the Russian's in speaking fees and for the "Clinton Foundation".
The Clinton's influence was easily bought.

Need approval for Uranium One?  Make a deposit with the Clinton Foundation - because the State Department is "open for business"!!!


MarkS

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #563 on: February 12, 2019, 12:31:41 PM »

Schwab:

Four quick points:

1). Your statement that it is only illegal to accept money from foreign governments is just plain wrong.
https://www.fec.gov/updates/foreign-nationals/

2).  As I understand Manafort's plea agreement, he plead guilty to charges stemming from his work with Ukraine, not Russia, long before his work with the Trump campaign. 

3). Your comment about going to the heart of the Trump investigation was an argument made concerning the enforcement of the plea agreement with Manafort.  It wasn't a claim that Manafort's guilty plea was proof against Trump.  It reflected the investigators frustration with Manafort over his not providing evidence against Trump in exchange for the plea deal. Specifically the investigators argued that Manafort's repeated lies were sufficient to void his plea agreement

4). If someone can't rely on news reports from supposedly reputable sources, then what are you relying on to make your allegations?
Moreover you're indirectly arguing that I must wait for the actual report before drawing any conclusions.  But aren't you drawing conclusions before reading the reports? 

Respectfully - color me unconvinced.

1. I didn't say it was only illegal, just that it was. I said it's not illegal to hire a non-US citizen in the sense that Steele was hired. Consider the fact that a campaign purchases various goods/services from foreign companies for campaign purposes. That is not illegal. It wasn't illegal for the Trump Campaign to have purchased "Make America Great Again" hats made in China. I'm not a lawyer and not nearly bright enough to point to the technical reasons differentiating the two other than to say they were clearly different situations. The direct offer from the sovereign country being an obvious difference.

2. Thus my "gets to the heart of the investigation" comment. Read the transcript. Ukraine Peace Plan, Russian sanctions, Deripaska, Russian trolls, Trump Tower Moscow, ect are all intertwined. Russian sanctions exist because of Crimea. They cannot be viewed in isolation.

3. It wasn't related to Trump. It was related to a specific lie made by Manafort. When explaining the "materiality" to the judge, Mueller's prosecutor said that the lie gets to the heart of the investigation. He was pointing out that it was more than merely meeting the minimum materiality hurdle.

4. In this thread, lately, I've only used court documents because there was too much pushback in past months that certain articles were "fake news" and thus unconvincing. I'm trying to remind folks that conspiracy isn't just a vague allegation but that the actual conspiracy is being proven in court every week. As this thread and point #2 shows, the conspiracy is broad and includes many actors. It will take awhile to go through all the legal steps to "prove it".

Schwab,

So if Steel used money given him by the law firm who represented Clinton and the DNC to pay Russians for dirt on Trump then that would be equivalent to Trump buying MAGA hats from China?

Since you haven't shared any of the documents that you're relying on to prove your point, I'll withhold additional comment until you post them. 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 12:40:15 PM by MarkS »

cubsfan

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #564 on: February 12, 2019, 12:41:17 PM »
Just think - and once the documents have been paid for by the Clinton's - just have the DOJ work with the FBI
to DEFRAUD the FISA court into giving you illegal surveillance on YOUR POLITICAL OPPONENT.

No problem there at all !

What a joke.

Schwab711

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #565 on: February 12, 2019, 01:19:52 PM »
Steele was hired by Fusion GPS, who was hired by a law firm representing a campaign. I can not list every single reason Steele is not like saying "I love it" when a foreign government offers dirt on an opponent and meeting with them to attempt to further the proposed transaction. If it is illegal to hire Steele, I'll accept it and support whatever consequence occurs. I suppose it would raise the issue with Cambridge Analytica, right? Or Psy Group? If it is illegal then it doesn't help Trump, his campaign, or make him innocent.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/did-hillary-clinton-break-the-law-hiring-trump-dossier-author
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/former-cambridge-analytica-workers-say-firm-sent-foreigners-to-advise-us-campaigns/2018/03/25/6a0d7d90-2fa2-11e8-911f-ca7f68bff0fc_story.html?noredirect=on

https://www.thedailybeast.com/rick-gates-tells-mueller-about-trump-teams-dealings-with-israeli-intelligence-firm
https://www.thedailybeast.com/team-trump-had-many-ties-to-israeli-intel-firm-in-muellers-crosshairs
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/02/18/private-mossad-for-hire
https://www.thedailybeast.com/swiss-mystery-company-is-at-the-heart-of-a-mueller-puzzle


It'll take awhile to post a link to every docket related to the Russia investigation and every article related to every allegation, if I even can. Maybe I'll start a thread for the purpose of adding docs/articles related to the investigation and we can leave this thread for commenting while just referring to the other thread. I don't really want to do it if the links will just get buried in clutter like this thread. Most of the documents you want to see are linked in this thread already. For now, here's some more.

Trump Tower Moscow:
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/jasonleopold/trump-russia-cohen-moscow-tower-mueller-investigation
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/azeenghorayshi/trump-tower-moscow-the-secret-files-cohen-sater-putin (actual emails)

Semi-related:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6669989/Massive-cache-emails-reveal-scale-plan-Trump-Moscow-campaign.html
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-30/russia-s-peskov-shares-2016-emails-from-ex-trump-lawyer-cohen

Manafort Transcript:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/07/politics/transcript-paul-manafort-hearing/index.html

« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 01:22:52 PM by Schwab711 »

MarkS

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #566 on: February 12, 2019, 02:02:38 PM »
Schwab
I don't expect you to find and post everything.  But if you want me to respond you need to put out something more concrete.  For example, I don't believe that Manafort's guilty plea had much to do with Trump other than fodder for cheap innuendo.  https://www.lawfareblog.com/manafort-guilty-plea-mueller-investigation-and-president
There is a link in the above that will show you exactly what he plead to.  Now you can respond to something relatively concrete.

LC

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #567 on: February 12, 2019, 03:32:25 PM »
Quote
But if you want me to respond you need to put out something more concrete

;D ;D ;D ;D

The guy posts hours worth of reading, even spells out the summation for you, and you respond in 40 minutes asking for something "more concrete".

What a good faith effort at a constructive discussion!
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MarkS

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #568 on: February 12, 2019, 03:42:04 PM »
Quote
But if you want me to respond you need to put out something more concrete

;D ;D ;D ;D

The guy posts hours worth of reading, even spells out the summation for you, and you respond in 40 minutes asking for something "more concrete".

What a good faith effort at a constructive discussion!

I could spend the rest of my life pouring over the links that Schwab posted and still not find hard evidence of Trump collusion with Russia.

cubsfan

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #569 on: February 12, 2019, 03:52:03 PM »
That's cause he's looking for collusion in the wrong place!