Author Topic: Russia Investigation.  (Read 92951 times)

Castanza

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #810 on: June 12, 2019, 11:17:36 AM »

Back to Andrew Yang. What do you all think of his campaign? As a centrist, I like a lot of his policies. I know a few libertarians that are on board with him too so I’m curious what you guys think.
[/quote]

Andrew Yang is nowhere close to being Libertarian. And anyone who claims they are Libertarian and support him based on that are fooling themselves. They are slightly conservative socialists who like the sound of "libertarian." Every one of his policies is rooted in government intervention, government aggression, and government force.
- He wants to further politicize the supreme court by putting in terms.
- He has an irrational fear of automation.
- Put the government in media.
- Free marriage counseling for all?!
- Medicare for all
- Increase welfare and single parent subsidies
- Forgive student debt
- Increase gun regulations
- He wants the government to come in and prop up failing malls to "revitalize" communities and give the impression of a solid local economy.
- Increase capital gains tax
- Early childhood education for all
- Paternal leave for both parents
- Federal govt subsidy for people who need to move for work

Oh and you cant forget "Make TAKES FUN!" Lets make it a holiday....

The only things I agree with are the deregulation of nuclear energy, let banks fail if they go under, and decriminalize drugs. Might be a few others. Other than that not a single one of his policies is Libertarian. There is about 20 more listed on his website.

This guy is running on the platform of Cosmic Justice which is ridiculous, inefficient, and impossible to effectively legislate for.


Schwab711

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #811 on: June 12, 2019, 11:40:12 AM »
Yang is off topic. Start a new thread.

cubsfan

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #812 on: June 12, 2019, 04:09:57 PM »
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/06/the-lessons-of-the-mueller-probe/

On the importance of these investigations:

"Our government must make transparent, good-faith efforts to police itself, or risk losing legitimacy in the public’s eyes."

Schwab711

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #813 on: June 12, 2019, 05:16:12 PM »
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/06/the-lessons-of-the-mueller-probe/

On the importance of these investigations:

"Our government must make transparent, good-faith efforts to police itself, or risk losing legitimacy in the public’s eyes."

Barr called it a review. Otherwise I agree with the quote and think it's healthy. It's not a criminal investigation. We know that because the DOJ doesn't announce them. We know the DOJ doesn't smear uncharged individuals. Common sense.

Schwab711

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #814 on: June 12, 2019, 05:19:13 PM »
https://mobile.twitter.com/ABC/status/1138936855573999616

The only reason Trump Jr wasn't charged for conspiracy with Russia to disrupt the election is because he plausibly didn't know this is a crime.

That was the line between "no collusion" and Benedict Arnold.

I'm not trying to put you down, I just don't understand why you can't acknowledge this is wrong and everything you hate about the Clinton's. If no one else can do what Trump is doing then what are you all up in arms about defending, you know?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 05:26:28 PM by Schwab711 »

cubsfan

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #815 on: June 13, 2019, 07:06:26 AM »
Brother Schwab - your case of TDS is very severe, so continue on with your Russia/Trump Collusion Fiasco.

The party is about to get very rough for the FBI, CIA, DOJ and State Department, along with Clinton campaign for trying to steal the 2016 election.

If you can't see that Hillary Clinton and acolytes carried out a wide ranging and illegal spying operation to sink and frame then-candidate Trump
and afterwards sabotage his Presidency with the baseless accusations to divert the heat from themselves - you're missing the big picture
once again. That's always been your problem.

Your new Attorney General, William Barr, testified before the Senate that the Trump Campaign was spied upon by US Intelligence Agencies.
In Barr's Senate testimony, his only question was whether the spying was "adequately predicated" - so no indictments, criminal referrals, etc have
been handed down yet.  Barr will be fair and get to the bottom of the matter.

It appears to me, your hero, Hillary Clinton is in big trouble - and if not linked directly, will have many others in big trouble.

This past administration made Watergate look like a small time burglary, as the deep state weaponized so many areas of the government
against private citizens in an effort to overturn a Presidential Election. You should be outraged, but your partisan blindness does not allow it.

Be patient Brother Schwab - and try to keep an open mind for once.

cameronfen

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #816 on: June 14, 2019, 01:38:52 PM »
^ This is absolutely rediculous. 

First Hillary was no longer part of the Obama adminstration so just assuming that the even if the FBI did something questionable how would this be Clinton's fault.  Second hiring Steele was legal.  You can hire (not get free service...hire) foriegners to dig up dirt on opposition candidates.  You cannot get get information from governments because there is a worry of quid pro quo with someone who doesnt have US interests at heart and risk of blackmail. 

Since Steele found something that was potentially illeagal, he reported to the FBI like any reasonable (non Trump) person would do.  Keep in mind Steele was origionally hired by Ted Cruz and up to now no one Hillary/Cruz/or Steele have done anything wrong. 

The FBI opened an investigation of the Trump campaign based on this information in addition to information given to us by Australian intellegence that Popodopolous addmited to a Australian friend that he was in contact with higher ups in the Russian government.  Both this information and much of the Steele doissier is verified by the FBI.  In addition to other comments like asking russia to release more emails right before emails are strategically released raises FBI eyebrows.  Because of this the FBI decides to do things seriously investigate Trump campaign. 

From public evidence nothing suggests the FBI was politically motivated.  Sure Bill Clinton talked to Loretta Lynch at an airport for 10 minutes, but this is miles away from having a trusted foriegn intellegence agency basically relay information that the Trump campaign was bragging about high level contacts with Russia.  Or that Trump publically asked Russia to hack more emails and timing on campaign tweets suggested they knew beforehand about Russia hacked documents.  There was a lot of evidence that worried the FBI from a national security perspective.  They investigate and fold it into the Mueller report which finds lots of shady Russia dealings but no conspiricy.  However just because they didnt find conspiricy (but lots of obstruction of justice btw), doesnt mean the FBI shouldn't have investigated Trump in the first place.  You dont know the result of an investigation until you investigate and a lot of stuff was sketchy so they did. 

Clinton has no connection to this decision and unless there is information that is not public, it is likely the investigation into Trump is reasonable.  After the handling of the Mueller report, it is clear Barr is a Trump toady and while I dont know what Barr knows, the a reasonable conjecture would be that these investigations are likely politically motivated to make Trump happy and cast a shadow on Clinton and the FBI who seemed like based on public information were just doing their jobs (and yes some of them happened to be democrats and spoke in hyperbole which they probably shouldn't have but again nothing to even suggest they acted on it which is the big difference between the FBI and Trump people). 
« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 01:47:25 PM by cameronfen »

cubsfan

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #817 on: June 14, 2019, 05:57:30 PM »
Cameron

I'll put you down as "uninformed". You should stop getting your facts from Rachel Maddow and the "most trusted name in news", CNN,
as both sources have been totally discredited.

Keep an open mind - and try a switch to Judicial Watch, National Review, and The Hill. You'll be shocked as the real story develops.
The mainstream media is not interested in the truth, but interested in ratings and advancing a partisan Democratic agenda.

I'm only trying to help you - but feel free to keep your head buried in the sand - as the truth is pretty ugly for Clinton and the Obama administration.

First - hiring Steele may have been legal, but the FBI fired Steele for misconduct (lying to the FBI and leaking confidential FBI info to the press)

Second - The Clinton campaign then decided to use Steele for the dossier, and went to great lengths to conceal this, as they used 2 firewalls, Fusion GPS
           and the PerkinsCoie Law firm to launder their payments to Steele. It took several months and FOIA requests to uncover this, and totally
           embarrassed the Clinton campaign. In the middle of this relationship was the 3rd ranking member of the DOJ, Bruce Ohr, and his wife, Nelly
           who worked for Fusion GPS. The 2 Ohr's served as the back channel for the unverified Steele Dossier to the FBI.

Third - James Comey of the FBI then used the Steele Dossier (unverified, but swore to the FISA court that the Dossier was verified) to obtain
           wiretaps, etc on several of Trump's associates and other citizens. Comey did not inform the FISA court the the Dossier was
           PAID FOR by the Clinton Campaign (even though they attempted to concealed the payments). Remember - Steele was previously
           fired by the FBI for misconduct as well and not to be used as a source.

So you have 1 political party (Clinton campaign) using the DOJ and FBI to conduct spying on their political opponent, Donald Trump.
Of course the whole thing is about to get blown sky high, since William Barr, has stated he will get to the bottom of the spying incident.
The FISA warrants were UNVERIFIED, as per Christopher Steele and James Comey directly stated.

Worse yet, the news you missed, is that Christopher Steele is about to spill the beans completely to Barr's staff. He's agreed to meet with
the DOJ Inspector General in London. Don't worry, Michael Horowitz will get to the bottom of relationship between Steele/Clinton/DOJ/FBI.
You can be sure of that.

You can call William Barr a toady or Trump stooge or whatever you like. No one is going to intimidate William Barr, not some POS like
Adam Schiff or Jerry Nadler - you can be sure of that.




cameronfen

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #818 on: June 17, 2019, 11:55:07 AM »
Cameron

I'll put you down as "uninformed". You should stop getting your facts from Rachel Maddow and the "most trusted name in news", CNN,
as both sources have been totally discredited.

Keep an open mind - and try a switch to Judicial Watch, National Review, and The Hill. You'll be shocked as the real story develops.
The mainstream media is not interested in the truth, but interested in ratings and advancing a partisan Democratic agenda.

I'm only trying to help you - but feel free to keep your head buried in the sand - as the truth is pretty ugly for Clinton and the Obama administration.

First - hiring Steele may have been legal, but the FBI fired Steele for misconduct (lying to the FBI and leaking confidential FBI info to the press)

Second - The Clinton campaign then decided to use Steele for the dossier, and went to great lengths to conceal this, as they used 2 firewalls, Fusion GPS
           and the PerkinsCoie Law firm to launder their payments to Steele. It took several months and FOIA requests to uncover this, and totally
           embarrassed the Clinton campaign. In the middle of this relationship was the 3rd ranking member of the DOJ, Bruce Ohr, and his wife, Nelly
           who worked for Fusion GPS. The 2 Ohr's served as the back channel for the unverified Steele Dossier to the FBI.

Third - James Comey of the FBI then used the Steele Dossier (unverified, but swore to the FISA court that the Dossier was verified) to obtain
           wiretaps, etc on several of Trump's associates and other citizens. Comey did not inform the FISA court the the Dossier was
           PAID FOR by the Clinton Campaign (even though they attempted to concealed the payments). Remember - Steele was previously
           fired by the FBI for misconduct as well and not to be used as a source.

So you have 1 political party (Clinton campaign) using the DOJ and FBI to conduct spying on their political opponent, Donald Trump.
Of course the whole thing is about to get blown sky high, since William Barr, has stated he will get to the bottom of the spying incident.
The FISA warrants were UNVERIFIED, as per Christopher Steele and James Comey directly stated.

Worse yet, the news you missed, is that Christopher Steele is about to spill the beans completely to Barr's staff. He's agreed to meet with
the DOJ Inspector General in London. Don't worry, Michael Horowitz will get to the bottom of relationship between Steele/Clinton/DOJ/FBI.
You can be sure of that.

You can call William Barr a toady or Trump stooge or whatever you like. No one is going to intimidate William Barr, not some POS like
Adam Schiff or Jerry Nadler - you can be sure of that.

I do get my facts from some liberal sites like CNN, which I can't believe I'm making this concession to you, because CNN is typically considered a news first (as opposed to opinion first) site, and generally among people in the know considered middle in the road.  It has become more left, as Trump has verred into crazy territory.  I also read National Review from time to time as well as the Hill occasionally  (which is more questionable than NR but I still read it), as they are more trustworthy.  Judicial Watch is widely known to peddle in conspiracy theory (at least from my sources which may be left biased idk).  I do appreciate the fact that you are trying to educate me, however if I agree to keep an open mind, I encourage you to at least read CNN or even, gulp, turn on MSNBC to at least try and understand what the left thinks.  We are all not loonies either. 

To respond to your points (labelled by number in the same numbers):

1.  Sure this is true.  However, he was fired due to a difference in philosophy (on something that could have been illegal I'll give you that) not because his information was ever deemed untrustworthy. 

2a.   Sure.  This was entirely legal.  Every campaign hires people to get dirt on other candidates.  Ted Cruz hired Steele in much the same way.  The reason you want to make your connection to investigators as opaque as possible is 1.) campaign tactics.  You don't want other candidates to know who you are hiring so they can avoid and figure out what you know and 2.) optics.  When it was revealed Clinton was behind it fallout was big.  However, it's entirely legal and done by everyone which was shown by Ted Cruz using a similar opaque structure to hire Steele.  Notice hiring investigators does not harm the interest of the United States in any obvious way.  Asking foreign governments for information on other campaigns is illegal for obvious reasons and Trump just a couple days ago publicly put a giant for sale sign on his forehead.  If you criticize Clinton for doing what everyone else is doing, is perfectly legal, and not harming the interests of the United States in any substantial and obvious way, you should call out Trumps most recent public comments as being dispicable.  There is no way around this point without being a hypocrite. 

2b.  Unfortunately, civil servants happen to have a lot of spouses that work in politics.  Those two fields overlap a lot.  Was anyone complaining that Valarie Plame's husband worked for the Bush administration?  Or what about James Carville spouse as a Republican operative?  These complaints public servants having to remain political in their own private life is ridiculous and basically acknowledged as such for 40 years until recently when Republicans decided to use this as a red haring to suggest bias.  Yeah that sucks that Ohr is a Democrat--he was part of the Obama administration.  A big way the FBI/CIA builds-out sources is through personal relationships (again Valarie Plame).  How is it that handing over potentially incriminating evidence to the FBI is nothing but a patriotic thing to do?  Do you have any information that the in some significant way unduly pushed the investigation against Trump? Sure Clinton also benefited, but nothing suggests the act in itself was anything but the right thing to do. 

3.  a. Direct quote by Comey: “First, I told President Trump that the particular allegation about him being involved with prostitutes in Moscow was unverified, but I felt it important that he know about it,” Comey said. “More broadly, the bureau began an effort after we got the Steele dossier to see how much of it we could replicate. That work was ongoing when I was fired.”   
b.  At the time of FISA, the Steele doissier was already in the public domain and much of it was known not to be verified yet.  Additionally, the FISA court would have already known that the dossier was paid for by Clinton as that was also already in the public domain.  The FISA court knew the Steele doissier was part of the evidence and if anyone told them that it was entirely verified they would have been laughed out of court.  I saw a "The Hill" article that mentions Comey swearing it was verified, but I have no idea what there source would be for that.  Additionally here is an article on the Lawfare Blog, which was written by a George W. Bust district attorney which basically comes to the conclusion that while a good deal of it is unverified, "As a raw intelligence document, the Steele dossier, we believe, holds up well so far." (https://www.lawfareblog.com/steele-dossier-retrospective)
c.  To address your point that Steele was not to be used as a source: again nothing indicated that Steele ever fabricated any intelligence or was sloppy in his investigations.  He just disagreed with the FBI on what should be made public and leaked the information on his own.  Big no-no I agree, but if this guy tells me that he has evidence indicating conspiracy with the Russian government by the candidate of a major political party, as the FBI I still sit down and listen.  Put another way if James O'Keefe or Alex Jones or even Donald Trump had evidence of Clinton doing something illegal would your party listen?  Steele is 1000x more trustworthy then them. 
d.  Lost in all this is that the Steele dossier was not the only evidence for this investigation.  Much of this was in the public domain.  After being warned that Flynn had contact with Russians, Trump still hired Flynn.  Trump tweeting to the Russians asking them to leak hacked Clinton documents.  Evidence from Austrialian intellegence that suggested the Popodopolous was actively seeking out Russians.  Again I'm not saying this is enough to charge Trump, but it's certainly enough to open up an investigation into the campaign. 

I'll have to get to your closing remarks later as I got to go.  I enjoy discussing this with you though.  I hope I don't come off as harsh as certainly I have a totally different understanding of what happened than you mostly due to our own echo chambers. 

cubsfan

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Re: Russia Investigation.
« Reply #819 on: June 18, 2019, 06:42:47 AM »
Thank you for the civil response. It's encouraging to see perhaps we can debate instead of degenerate as we disagree.

Regarding "sources" - we'll just disagree. I've watched CNN & MSNBC for years. Something has changed. CNN is the network that brought
us Michael Avanetti for President, and showcased the loser 200 times last year as a savior to Republic. MSNBC isn't far behind, with Rachel
Maddow, their highest rated show featuring Russia, Russia, Russia for 2 years running. Rachel is smart, but looks really really bad.

I consider Judicial Watch - conservative for sure, but not unfair. Reasonable people can disagree and that's fine.

Some counterpoints:

1-  Christopher Steele was trustworthy - until he leaked FBI information to the Press and then lied to the FBI multiple times about his leaking.

2a - That Clinton Campaign chose to use Steele afterwards as a source is not ILLEGAL and that was their choice. Fine. No problem. What was illegal
       was Steele supplying the revised Dossier to the Clinton campaign and then the DOJ/Fusion GPS giving that info to the FBI to, once again,
       use Steele as a "source".  This information was never verified by the FBI and used for the basis for FISA warrants. The FISA court has a very
        high standard for granting surviellance of US Citizens (spying) - and the FBI must swear the information was verified. And to NOT disclose
       to the court that and OPPOSITION political party PAID FOR this information is CERTAINLY a large problem.

2a - Trump's most recent actions are THOUGHT crimes, not ACTIONS. If you consider this a crime, certainly the Clinton/DOJ/FBI action is a real crime.

2b - You can not have an "impartial investigation" when you staff it with 19 lawyers that are Democratic and many hate Trump. Surely you understand
       the issue of impartiality and why it is so important?  Can it be perfect? Of course not.   But don't tell me you can not find 19 very impartial
       attorneys/investigators to participate in your investigation. How is it possible that you don't vet them for bias? AND AT LEAST the very
       obvious signs of bias - like campaign contributions, individuals that worked on Clinton's staff or foundation. SURELY that is a problem.
       This investigation was HIGHLY partisan and Mueller looks very very bad.

3a - The FISA warrant was unverified - that was discovered after repeated FOIA requests from Judicial Watch and months of stonewalling.
       This was highly embarrassing for the investigators. Andrew McCabe testified that without the Steele Dossier the FISA warrants could NOT
       have been obtained by the FBI. Christopher Steele testified in UK courts that his Dossier was "unverfiable" and could NEVER be used in
       a court of law.


      The job of the FBI is to VERIFY the information given to them by a source (trustworthy or NOT). As an investigator, you don't just
      take a 3rd party's word as gospel for PROBABLE CAUSE to start an investigation. The Dossier was NOT verified to the FISA court
      and NEVER disclosed a political campaign paid for it as opposition research. The FBI could never verified Steele's sources and sub-sources
      and all the salacious accusations that were made.  The FBI graded the credibility of the Dossier as very low, but still used it.

Cameron - you don't come off as harsh and I appreciate your openness. What has been perpetuated by the Media and clowns like Clapper, Brennan,
Schiff, etc - is a campaign of misinformation.

I do NOT expect you to believe me - just keep an open mind when the Michael Horowitz investigation and others present THEIR version
of what really happened.