Author Topic: Should Canada open up its borders?  (Read 2593 times)

shalab

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Should Canada open up its borders?
« on: January 07, 2019, 07:23:00 AM »
I visited Mexico this week and can see why people want to come to the US. I have visited Canada as well. I would even say that on average, Canada is far wealthier than the U.S.

Having said that, what do folks on this forum think of opening up Canadian borders for people in the caravans with work permits to Canada? Canada anyway takes in hundreds of thousands of immigrants from around the world on an yearly basis. This will setup a positive example for all regimes in the world.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 07:33:56 AM by shalab »


DTEJD1997

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Re: Should Canada open up its borders?
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2019, 08:07:25 AM »
Shalab:

I think you are kind of on the right track...but Canada needs workers AND they've got a TON of open space.  They shouldn't take in hundreds of thousands, THEY SHOULD TAKE IN MILLIONS!

The USA could even help this by running daily bus caravans North to Canada.

Canada also has an EXCELLENT health care system.  They could teach USA how to do things.  What better way than to SHOW instead of TELL?  Allow people from USA to come into Canada for healthcare.

Finally, Mexico should reciprocate and allow USA people to come in and buy businesses and real estate!

Viking

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Re: Should Canada open up its borders?
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2019, 09:05:35 AM »
This is a very complicated topic. Immigration, if not handled properly, can cause serious issues in the home country and Canada is no different in this regard. Most importantly, new immigrants need to be settled properly and must be able to find meaningful jobs (over time) and be integrated properly into society; this takes generations to be done properly. Most importantly, the Canadian population (as a whole) needs to support the immigration policy in place and my guess is the vast majority of Canadian support the status quo (current numbers continuing).

Canada is facing some serious headwinds the next couple of years: housing bubble, oil industry in decline, protectionist US. This is likely going to stress the economic and political system. Status quo on immigration makes sense to me.

no_free_lunch

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Re: Should Canada open up its borders?
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2019, 10:19:51 AM »
Great idea!  This is exactly what our PM asked for.

It is racist to be opposed to this.

Thanks for taking us at our word.

LC

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Re: Should Canada open up its borders?
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2019, 12:09:52 PM »
So I like my idea from the other thread, which I'll repeat here:

Let em in but make em pay.

In other words, some type of non-citizen economic green card status. You can live and work here, but you have to pay an extra tax and you don't get the same social services, voting rights, passport, etc.

It has a few benefits:
1) It keeps people above-board. They have a legal status and aren't frightened daily of being kicked out (More a USA problem than Canada), but also the country can track them - which is useful for the below items.

2) From a risk perspective it makes sense. You are coming to this country because of presumably safety/rule of law, job opportunities, etc. These are all characteristics you did not help build - so instead of giving them away for free, you pay a tax.

3) This tax helps ease the burden of native citizens who did help build such an environment. Maybe there is even some provision where if you don't pay into this tax over  a span of XYZ years, you get kicked out (which is why it's important to have these folks registered and have a legal status)

It's not perfect but to me it makes sense. The gov't gets value, the immigrants get value, the native citizens get value.
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Orchard

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Re: Should Canada open up its borders?
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2019, 03:36:50 PM »
Maybe Canada is already doing it? Just see the attached.

Cigarbutt

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Re: Should Canada open up its borders?
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2019, 04:19:58 PM »
I guess the thread is meant to be provocative but here are some numbers:

For the US:
number of immigrants per year: about 1 million in 2018 (stable and declining?)

For Canada:
number of immigrants per year: 310 000 in 2018 (on the rise, 330,000 expected in 2019, 340,000 in 2020)

The population ratio between the 2 countries=9

The foreign-born residents to total population:
US=about 14-15%
CDN=about 20-21%

In the US, the reported numbers underestimate the "foreign" component because of the "illegal" aspect.
Estimate of total illegal immigrant population in the US: about 10 to 20M
Estimate of total illegal immigrant population in Canada: about 65 000
So, it would be reasonable to "adjust" the numbers in the US by adding about a third of the reported value for the total immigrant population.

The reason for the difference in illegal immigration rates is mainly geographic in nature. According to a certain rhetoric, the US would be great again if there would be another Canada south of their border to act as a buffer. :)

As Viking explains, the immigration issue is a difficult one.
From a humble northern perspective, the US is a victim of its own success and it seems that many moderate voices in both tribes have tried, for years, to reach a reasonable compromise.
Why so little progress and why are we hitting a wall?

rb

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Re: Should Canada open up its borders?
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2019, 07:15:43 PM »
Looks like shalab's Canada boner is back.

rb

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Re: Should Canada open up its borders?
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2019, 07:35:04 PM »
So I like my idea from the other thread, which I'll repeat here:

Let em in but make em pay.

In other words, some type of non-citizen economic green card status. You can live and work here, but you have to pay an extra tax and you don't get the same social services, voting rights, passport, etc.
LC, as far as I remember you have lived in Canada for a while. So you should know that what you're proposing would not just be in contrary our laws, it would be in contrary to our values.

What you're proposing is not akin to say half slavery, but definitely similar to the practices of some mafioso racketeer. Why should one not receive goverment services if one is paying for them? Even more than others in your example. If one is an upstanding member of the society, why should one not have a voice in shaping the society one lives in? This is US style BS - let's make people's lives hard just because we can. Once we do that we can feel good about ourselves.

Ok now, Canada actually has a pretty decent open border. A lot of people can come here. We have a foreign worker program - so people can come here legally to work on our farms, etc. Once they're in they pay taxes, and are under the full protection of our laws (including minimum wage). They don't have to sneak in. It's quite a serious list of offenses for someone to hire undocumented workers.

When it comes to the number of people we take in, compared to the Unites States, it is a LOT. Proportionally, legal immigration I think is higher than legal immigration in the US+illegal immigration+border apprehensions. Foreign workers are not included in the immigration numbers so those would be on top.

LC

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Re: Should Canada open up its borders?
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2019, 08:28:52 PM »
rb,

Fair points all around. Yes I lived in Montreal for years, and yes it's a weird proposition (and not really serious) because it's very un-Canadian. I blame my retreat to the States  ;D

It's a bit like the modest proposal. I am serious about the States part - people here have become so divided and certain folks are simply unwilling to compromise. This unwillingness is a sign of their underlying belief - because it's about tribalism more than anything else. So you have to make them a ridiculous offer that meets every one of their stated criteria, to bring their true beliefs out into the open.

For example, I made this proposal on the other active thread in the politics section. It hits all their criteria. Tax revenue. Less of a burden on "Native Citizens". The gov't can track immigrants, impose harsher penalties on them for misbehavior. But not a single person bit (except for Sanjeev, and good for him!) because they are simply unwilling to compromise. As meiroy correctly posted in that thread, "If those people crossing via Mexico were white they wouldn't care that much about it.  That's what it comes down to."

So now that I've explained myself, hopefully not too poorly, I'll commend you on two, very fine, very Canadian, very human policies (in your own words):

Quote
Ok now, Canada actually has a pretty decent open border. A lot of people can come here. We have a foreign worker program - so people can come here legally to work on our farms, etc. Once they're in they pay taxes, and are under the full protection of our laws (including minimum wage). They don't have to sneak in. It's quite a serious list of offenses for someone to hire undocumented workers.

When it comes to the number of people we take in, compared to the Unites States, it is a LOT. Proportionally, legal immigration I think is higher than legal immigration in the US+illegal immigration+border apprehensions. Foreign workers are not included in the immigration numbers so those would be on top.

Kudos to you and I wish my home country embraced such ideals. And I still tell my wife that we will be living back in Montreal...hopefully sooner rather than when I am too much older...truly a special place in the world and my heart.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 08:31:53 PM by LC »
"Lethargy bordering on sloth remains the cornerstone of our investment style."
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