Author Topic: Should we know other people's salaries?  (Read 2206 times)

rkbabang

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Re: Should we know other people's salaries?
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2018, 06:25:50 AM »
Twice in my career I've felt as I was underpaid.  The first time was when I was 5 years out of college and had worked at the same company for those 5 years.  I decided to leave, secured a job for 30% more than I was making, +stock, +half a years salary sign on bonus.  I gave my notice and my company immediately matched the offer (salary, stock and retention bonus), so I obviously was underpaid.   The next time over 10 years later after being with that company for over 15 years, I again felt underpaid.  I found another job, gave my notice and left for a much, much better offer which my company wasn't willing to match (they said they couldn't match it).  That was over 7 years ago and I couldn't be happier. I've never known what my coworkers made at any company, but if you feel you are worth more than you are making, see if you can find a job for more.  If you do and your company is not willing to match it, leave.

I don't want to know what my co-workers make or them to know what I make.  All I want to know is what my skills are worth on the market.


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rkbabang

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Re: Should we know other people's salaries?
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2018, 05:56:06 AM »
Meanwhile in Finland: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/01/world/europe/finland-national-jealousy-day.html

I've always said that this whole thing the left has about "equality" and "wealth disparity" is nothing but pure toxic envy eating at them.  It is a personality malignancy.  No matter how good you have it you can't be happy if someone else has more.

Interesting quote from the article:

"When people could easily learn the incomes of co-workers and neighbors, self-reported happiness began to track more closely with income, with low earners reporting lower happiness. "

wachtwoord

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Re: Should we know other people's salaries?
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2018, 06:21:34 AM »
Meanwhile in Finland: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/01/world/europe/finland-national-jealousy-day.html

Wtf are these people (Finland and Norway) crazy? Incentivizing tax evasion to avoid being a target for an abduction or blackmail. It's really no-one's business how much wealth you've got.

Anyway I'm curious now: are there more countries than these two where it's possible to look up resident's private tax records? (Either as a private person, business or media).

Thanks for sharing the article!
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undervalued

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Re: Should we know other people's salaries?
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2018, 09:00:11 AM »
Twice in my career I've felt as I was underpaid.  The first time was when I was 5 years out of college and had worked at the same company for those 5 years.  I decided to leave, secured a job for 30% more than I was making, +stock, +half a years salary sign on bonus.  I gave my notice and my company immediately matched the offer (salary, stock and retention bonus), so I obviously was underpaid.   The next time over 10 years later after being with that company for over 15 years, I again felt underpaid.  I found another job, gave my notice and left for a much, much better offer which my company wasn't willing to match (they said they couldn't match it).  That was over 7 years ago and I couldn't be happier. I've never known what my coworkers made at any company, but if you feel you are worth more than you are making, see if you can find a job for more.  If you do and your company is not willing to match it, leave.

I don't want to know what my co-workers make or them to know what I make.  All I want to know is what my skills are worth on the market.

That sucks. I've had the same experience. First 3 years, I was under paid a lot. I then moved to a different company and got a 50% bump. In that 2nd company I learned from my nosy coworker that there too I was underpaid. I found this 2nd company through an agent and the agent also felt I was underpaid so he fought to get me a 20% bump. From my nosy coworker, I learned that I was still under paid. He then moved to a different state and had me apply there as well which I did. The company then matched my salary which gave me another 15% bump.
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LC

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Re: Should we know other people's salaries?
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2018, 09:33:18 AM »
Meanwhile in Finland: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/01/world/europe/finland-national-jealousy-day.html

I've always said that this whole thing the left has about "equality" and "wealth disparity" is nothing but pure toxic envy eating at them.  It is a personality malignancy.  No matter how good you have it you can't be happy if someone else has more.

Interesting quote from the article:

"When people could easily learn the incomes of co-workers and neighbors, self-reported happiness began to track more closely with income, with low earners reporting lower happiness. "

I disagree with your comment about envy. Now I understand you have your own biases when you're attributing these characteristics to "the left", but how can you be envious of something you do not know?

On the topic of wealth inequality you can simply look at the state of the US to determine the consequences.

On the topic of salary and income disclosure, it is about having full(er) information to assess your own situation. While ignorance may be bliss but I would rather people not live in it.

Also, the full picture of that quote is:

A study of faculty members at the University of California, where pay was made accessible online in 2008, found that lower-earning workers, after learning how their pay stacked up, were less happy in their job and more likely to look for a new one.

This jives with undervalued's experience. Presumably he is much better paid now thanks to knowing his coworker's salaries.

Wealth inequality is easier to develop when you (1) underpay everyone you can, and (2) limit their knowledge so they never find out they are underpaid. Why not discourage this?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 09:35:18 AM by LC »
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rkbabang

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Re: Should we know other people's salaries?
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2018, 10:25:27 AM »
Meanwhile in Finland: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/01/world/europe/finland-national-jealousy-day.html

I've always said that this whole thing the left has about "equality" and "wealth disparity" is nothing but pure toxic envy eating at them.  It is a personality malignancy.  No matter how good you have it you can't be happy if someone else has more.

Interesting quote from the article:

"When people could easily learn the incomes of co-workers and neighbors, self-reported happiness began to track more closely with income, with low earners reporting lower happiness. "

I disagree with your comment about envy. Now I understand you have your own biases when you're attributing these characteristics to "the left", but how can you be envious of something you do not know?

On the topic of wealth inequality you can simply look at the state of the US to determine the consequences.

On the topic of salary and income disclosure, it is about having full(er) information to assess your own situation. While ignorance may be bliss but I would rather people not live in it.

Also, the full picture of that quote is:

A study of faculty members at the University of California, where pay was made accessible online in 2008, found that lower-earning workers, after learning how their pay stacked up, were less happy in their job and more likely to look for a new one.

This jives with undervalued's experience. Presumably he is much better paid now thanks to knowing his coworker's salaries.

Wealth inequality is easier to develop when you (1) underpay everyone you can, and (2) limit their knowledge so they never find out they are underpaid. Why not discourage this?

The state of the US is pretty damn good.  Jobs are plentiful and almost everyone is doing pretty damn well.   No one (and I mean no one except for the mentally ill living under a bridge drinking themselves to death refusing shelter) is without food or a roof over their heads or heat (if needed).  Almost no one lives without a smart phone or access to the internet.  Everyone has a TV, a microwave, a cooking stove, and most have a car (if needed).  Look at socialist countries where everyone is equal, even food isn't a given.

EDIT:  I deleted something I wrote here that upon re-reading wasn't very nice. I apologize.  It is just that I do not understand how anyone can look at the tremendous wealth generated in the United States and the elimination of anything that could be called real poverty as a bad thing simply because some people happen to have a lot more than others.

Also. You quoted the paragraph above the one that I did. The full quote is:

"A study of Norway, which made its tax data easily accessible to anonymous online searches in 2001, reached a similar conclusion: When people could easily learn the incomes of co-workers and neighbors, self-reported happiness began to track more closely with income, with low earners reporting lower happiness. In 2014, Norway banned anonymous searches, and the number of searches dropped dramatically."
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 11:00:02 AM by rkbabang »

wachtwoord

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Re: Should we know other people's salaries?
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2018, 12:46:38 PM »
Lol moved to politics haha

Anyway I think we have several topics:

1) should we know the salaries of co-workers?
My answer to this is that the employer should decide. There is an obvious opt-out if you don't like it (quit).

2) nation-wide public tax records?
Seems like an obvious no to me because short of emigrating there is no opt-out (and then there needs to be a country which doesnt do it) and obvious safety concerns. The maffia would love this.

3) is wealth inequality a problem?
No quite the opposite. Value creating behaviour in society needs to be sufficiently rewarded to motivate those able to  to actually do so. The rest of society benefits from this behaviour because a rising tide lifts all boats, albeit only on an absolute level (the only thing that should matter) and not on a relative basis, causing the jealousy we see today with people complaining about wealth inequality. I suggest we treat them the same as any crying jealous child: tell them to work harder and if they steal from other kids or break their toys give them a time out.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master"

LC

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Re: Should we know other people's salaries?
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2018, 12:47:08 PM »
I see we have been relegated to the politics forum. Our biases are too strong, rk :D :D :D

Regarding the quote it is a small matter - yes finding out you are underpaid sucks. If you are underpaid, you can:
-Live in an ignorant bliss where you do not know it.
-Try to negotiate a higher wage, either successfully or unsuccessfully
-Do nothing about it

I just find the argument that the intangible downside, i.e. "it makes people feel bad", to not be a good one - when the potential upside is actually tangible (raise or new job).

In terms of the US....we can debate endlessly. The indicators are out there - we will select the ones which support our own conclusions, but perhaps this is not the topic to do so.
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LC

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Re: Should we know other people's salaries?
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2018, 12:58:10 PM »
3) is wealth inequality a problem?
No quite the opposite. Value creating behaviour in society needs to be sufficiently rewarded to motivate those able to  to actually do so. The rest of society benefits from this behaviour because a rising tide lifts all boats, albeit only on an absolute level (the only thing that should matter) and not on a relative basis, causing the jealousy we see today with people complaining about wealth inequality. I suggest we treat them the same as any crying jealous child: tell them to work harder and if they steal from other kids or break their toys give them a time out.
Oh I agree on the treatment. When a child takes all the toys for himself, take the toys away and give him a time out before he can play again with the other kids.
"Lethargy bordering on sloth remains the cornerstone of our investment style."
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brk.b | cash