Corner of Berkshire & Fairfax Message Board

General Category => Politics => Topic started by: Parsad on December 04, 2018, 03:01:27 PM

Title: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Parsad on December 04, 2018, 03:01:27 PM
Lock him up!  Lock him up!  Roger Stone pleads the fifth:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/04/politics/roger-stone-fifth-amendment/index.html

I wonder if Trump remembers this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMyh7ko9L2g

Cheers!

Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Gregmal on December 04, 2018, 03:04:18 PM
I'm shocked. I never would have thought you were a CNN guy...
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Parsad on December 04, 2018, 03:24:39 PM
I'm shocked. I never would have thought you were a CNN guy...

You should be more shocked by the constant hypocrisy that comes out of Trump's mouth...not simply numb by it or condoning it.  Cheers!
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Spekulatius on December 04, 2018, 03:34:51 PM
I'm shocked. I never would have thought you were a CNN guy...

You should be more shocked by the constant hypocrisy that comes out of Trump's mouth...not simply numb by it or condoning it.  Cheers!

Trump really would be a great character in a George Orwell book.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: BRK7 on December 04, 2018, 03:57:24 PM

You should be more shocked by the constant hypocrisy that comes out of Trump's mouth...not simply numb by it or condoning it.  Cheers!

Trump doesn't appear to realize that all of his statements and actions are being recorded for history to judge.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Viking on December 04, 2018, 04:14:17 PM
I'm shocked. I never would have thought you were a CNN guy...

You should be more shocked by the constant hypocrisy that comes out of Trump's mouth...not simply numb by it or condoning it.  Cheers!

Trump really would be a great character in a George Orwell book.

Trump would not work as fiction... no one would believe the behavior of the character to be possible.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 04, 2018, 05:20:47 PM
Gee, now 2 years into it - and Mueller still can't find collusion? 

When it was all so obvious to the Dems that Trump and Putin threw the election - what a farce.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 04, 2018, 05:39:47 PM
Did they uncover that Russian collusion plot yet?

No?  Give him a couple more years, maybe he can take it into 2020, so the Dems will have something to talk about
other than a real agenda...

Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Parsad on December 04, 2018, 10:27:08 PM
Did they uncover that Russian collusion plot yet?

No?  Give him a couple more years, maybe he can take it into 2020, so the Dems will have something to talk about
other than a real agenda...

So you investigate someone for theft and you find out he's a murderer...are you really that blase about corruption in the United States by the man who holds the highest office, his family, his friends, his trusted confidants and his cronies?  Do you really give him a pass for everything you are watching because he cut taxes?  When exactly would you feel comfortable holding him accountable?  Would you truly feel ok if he went and pardoned Manafort, or his son if he's indicted?  Cheers!
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 05, 2018, 05:24:57 AM
Mueller is investigating Trump colluding with Russia to throw the American Election - remember?

Where is this collusion anyway?

Where are the millions of votes that were influenced, etc?

It's almost starting to look like Trump was legitimately elected !

What's the left going to do now?

Ridiculous.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Gregmal on December 05, 2018, 06:05:13 AM
Did they uncover that Russian collusion plot yet?

No?  Give him a couple more years, maybe he can take it into 2020, so the Dems will have something to talk about
other than a real agenda...

So you investigate someone for theft and you find out he's a murderer...are you really that blase about corruption in the United States by the man who holds the highest office, his family, his friends, his trusted confidants and his cronies?  Do you really give him a pass for everything you are watching because he cut taxes?  When exactly would you feel comfortable holding him accountable?  Would you truly feel ok if he went and pardoned Manafort, or his son if he's indicted?  Cheers!

Except theft, even if it's on the grandest scale, is not equal to murder. Going from theft to murder is a giant step up. Which is a very different situation than going from collusion/treasom to whatever petty nonsense they've come up with here. In all cases a big step down. I mean seriously, if this all wraps up and the biggest whale that came from this was that Manafort cheated on his taxes and lobbied for Eastern European countries, independent of the 2016 election... then IDK how you can't consider this whole thing a massive hoax and fraudulent partisan witch hunt.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: investor-man on December 08, 2018, 01:35:33 PM
Mueller is investigating Trump colluding with Russia to throw the American Election - remember?

Where is this collusion anyway?

Where are the millions of votes that were influenced, etc?

It's almost starting to look like Trump was legitimately elected !

What's the left going to do now?

Ridiculous.

The evidence that has been made public is pretty damning. He and his family were bribed.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 08, 2018, 03:17:47 PM
Mueller is investigating Trump colluding with Russia to throw the American Election - remember?

Where is this collusion anyway?

Where are the millions of votes that were influenced, etc?

It's almost starting to look like Trump was legitimately elected !

What's the left going to do now?

Ridiculous.

The evidence that has been made public is pretty damning. He and his family were bribed.

Are you saying Mueller has evidence of Trump colluding with Russia to throw the US Presidential election?

Is that what you are saying? 
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: investor-man on December 08, 2018, 03:23:22 PM
Yes
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Gregmal on December 08, 2018, 04:14:01 PM
Did anyone hear about how Comey has now verified there was ZERO EFFORT to verify the Steele Dossier before issuing wire taps on the Trump campaign? Haven't heard any of the neighborhood liberals chime in on that...
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 08, 2018, 04:31:41 PM
Of course not - it's an investigation in search of a crime.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: ERICOPOLY on December 09, 2018, 05:54:53 AM
Lock him up!  Lock him up!  Roger Stone pleads the fifth:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/04/politics/roger-stone-fifth-amendment/index.html

I wonder if Trump remembers this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMyh7ko9L2g

Cheers!

"The Mob takes the Fifth. If you're innocent, why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?"

- Donald Trump, Sept 2016
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: ERICOPOLY on December 09, 2018, 06:04:15 AM
Trump Tower Moscow business conducted with a Russian bank under US sanctions in June 2016 has given the Russians something with which they can blackmail the President of the United States.

They can control the President of the United States with this information if they can get him elected.

They can continue to control him if it remains a secret.

Is this not an important investigation that Mueller is conducting?

The witches (warlocks really) need to be hunted and burned.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 09, 2018, 06:14:03 AM
The goal of the Mueller investigation was very clear: Find the Russian collusion with Trump that caused the election to be thrown Trump's way.

Remember - Hillary LOST the election because Russia influenced millions of votes. She did not lose the election
because she was a terrible candidate. The election was clearly rigged by the collusion. The purpose of Mueller
investigation is to find the collusion and influence. Trump is NOT a legitimate democratically elected President
of the United States.

So - I will ask once again: Where is the collusion?
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: ERICOPOLY on December 09, 2018, 06:23:52 AM
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/12/04/donald-trump-michael-flynn-russia-national-security-blackmail-column/2196390002/

Money laundering and conflicts of interest
There have long been credible allegations that Russian money was laundered through the Trump Organization. If Russia could show that Trump, his business or his immediate family had benefited from tainted money or broken the law ó or if Trump believed they could ó it would mean that Russia could exert pressure on Trump to influence U.S. foreign policy.

The presidentís behavior has done nothing to allay these concerns, including his inexplicable conduct in Helsinki, when he sided with Putin over his own intelligence agencies and appeared to accept Russia's mendacious denial of involvement in the 2016 election.

But the concern goes beyond Russia, and extends to broader questions of financial conflict of interest. Following the murder of U.S. resident and Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi by Saudi Arabia, Trump has sought to excuse Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. Is the presidentís deference to Saudi Arabia based on geopolitical or security concerns, or is it based on his own financial interests? Although the president now denies having any financial ties to the Saudis, just a short time ago he was bragging about the many tens of millions of dollars the Saudis were spending on his apartments and how much he favored them as a result.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 09, 2018, 06:36:05 AM
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/12/04/donald-trump-michael-flynn-russia-national-security-blackmail-column/2196390002/

Money laundering and conflicts of interest
There have long been credible allegations that Russian money was laundered through the Trump Organization. If Russia could show that Trump, his business or his immediate family had benefited from tainted money or broken the law ó or if Trump believed they could ó it would mean that Russia could exert pressure on Trump to influence U.S. foreign policy.

The presidentís behavior has done nothing to allay these concerns, including his inexplicable conduct in Helsinki, when he sided with Putin over his own intelligence agencies and appeared to accept Russia's mendacious denial of involvement in the 2016 election.

But the concern goes beyond Russia, and extends to broader questions of financial conflict of interest. Following the murder of U.S. resident and Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi by Saudi Arabia, Trump has sought to excuse Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. Is the presidentís deference to Saudi Arabia based on geopolitical or security concerns, or is it based on his own financial interests? Although the president now denies having any financial ties to the Saudis, just a short time ago he was bragging about the many tens of millions of dollars the Saudis were spending on his apartments and how much he favored them as a result.

Oh, here we go - "allegations" by non other than Adam Schiff - that total partisan hack from California - what a joke!

This must be Adam's 15th or 20th bite at the impeachment apple - keep trying Schiff - you and Maxine Waters
make a great pair!
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: ERICOPOLY on December 09, 2018, 06:40:23 AM
The American people deserve to know that our president is acting in their interest and not his own financial self interest, or because he has been compromised by a foreign power. Now, with a new Democratic majority in the House, we should be able to find out.

Rep. Adam Schiff, D-Calif., is ranking member of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 09, 2018, 06:46:44 AM
Adam Schiff is a much bigger Sleaze than Trump anyday - ranks right up there with Maxine Watters, Keith Ellison and
Ocasio Cortez.  The man is a lying machine. Watch any interview with the POS if you want to see a con-man in action.
But I got to give the huckster from California credit - he tries everything - although nothing has stuck yet.

Must be nice to have Congressional immunity when you make derogatory allegations against your opponents.

So much for "ranking" - certainly not "respected".

I really, really hope the Democratic Party nominates one of these nut bags for President in 2020.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: ERICOPOLY on December 09, 2018, 06:54:06 AM
I think politics is a very important (separate) topic on an investing board.

The psychology is very much related. 
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: ERICOPOLY on December 09, 2018, 06:55:21 AM
Trump's campaign slogan 2020:

(insert name) is a much bigger Sleaze than Trump.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: ERICOPOLY on December 09, 2018, 07:02:55 AM
Trump is paid hundreds of millions by the Saudi's and, coincidentally, he ignores the intelligence on the Kashoggi killing:


At another rally that year, Trump said of the Saudis, "I make a lot of money from them."

"They buy all sorts of my stuff. All kinds of toys from Trump. They pay me millions and hundred of millions."

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/16/trump-says-no-financial-interests-in-saudi-arabia-but-makes-money.htm


Or he is a liar?  When is it safe to believe him?
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 09, 2018, 07:07:13 AM
Trump's campaign slogan 2020:

(insert name) is a much bigger Sleaze than Trump.

Might as well - Hillary's slogan for 2016

"Vote for me, I have no platform, but I am not Donald Trump"
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 09, 2018, 07:18:17 AM

A trip down memory lane with the Clown show Adam Schiff:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0qdJAh8eHk

"Well respected" ranking member of House Intelligence Committee.



Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: bearprowler6 on December 09, 2018, 07:40:06 AM
The goal of the Mueller investigation was very clear: Find the Russian collusion with Trump that caused the election to be thrown Trump's way.

Remember - Hillary LOST the election because Russia influenced millions of votes. She did not lose the election
because she was a terrible candidate. The election was clearly rigged by the collusion. The purpose of Mueller
investigation is to find the collusion and influence. Trump is NOT a legitimate democratically elected President
of the United States.

So - I will ask once again: Where is the collusion?

cubsfan----Robert Mueller`s mandate is much broader than finding whether or not their was collusion with the Russians by the Trump campaign. You are simply wrong if you think or believe otherwise. Yes...potential for Russian collusion is part of his mandate and a very important part of it however his overall mandate is MUCH broader.

A link to the document appointing Robert Mueler as Special Counsel is provided below:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3726408-Rosenstein-letter-appointing-Mueller-special.html

Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 09, 2018, 07:57:16 AM
Of course , that is exactly what Mueller is doing - looking at everything under the sun.
Under every rock to unseat a duly elected President. Setting perjury traps for anyone
ever associated with Donald Trump, etc. Looking into everyone's past history, well
outside of the scope of the election.  It's a travesty of justice, with an unlimited mandate.

But look who set the scope - none other than Rod Rosenstein!
Rosenstein is both a witness and accessory to the defrauding the FISA court!

What could be more obvious.

And we all know the express purpose is to find collusion between Russia and Trump.
Because that is why Hillary lost the election. That has always been the purpose.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: bearprowler6 on December 09, 2018, 08:02:41 AM
Of course , that is exactly what Mueller is doing - looking at everything under the sun.
Under every rock to unseat a duly elected President. Setting perjury traps for anyone
ever associated with Donald Trump, etc. Looking into everyone's past history, well
outside of the scope of the election.  It's a travesty of justice, with an unlimited mandate.

But look who set the scope - none other than Rod Rosenstein!
Rosenstein is both a witness and accessory to the defrauding the FISA court!

What could be more obvious.

And we all know the express purpose is to find collusion between Russia and Trump.
Because that is why Hillary lost the election. That has always been the purpose.

Wrong again cubsfan---we all DO NOT know that the purpose is what you continue to falsely state. The purpose is what is stated in the mandate letter that set Robert Muller's role as Special Counsel.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 09, 2018, 08:30:38 AM
Of course , that is exactly what Mueller is doing - looking at everything under the sun.
Under every rock to unseat a duly elected President. Setting perjury traps for anyone
ever associated with Donald Trump, etc. Looking into everyone's past history, well
outside of the scope of the election.  It's a travesty of justice, with an unlimited mandate.

But look who set the scope - none other than Rod Rosenstein!
Rosenstein is both a witness and accessory to the defrauding the FISA court!

What could be more obvious.

And we all know the express purpose is to find collusion between Russia and Trump.
Because that is why Hillary lost the election. That has always been the purpose.

Wrong again cubsfan---we all DO NOT know that the purpose is what you continue to falsely state. The purpose is what is stated in the mandate letter that set Robert Muller's role as Special Counsel.

Yea, signed, sealed and delivered by Rod Rosenstein - co-participant in defrauding the FISA court.

How convenient! And quite a brilliant way to keep the heat from coming his way!




Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: ERICOPOLY on December 09, 2018, 04:19:53 PM

A trip down memory lane with the Clown show Adam Schiff:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0qdJAh8eHk

"Well respected" ranking member of House Intelligence Committee.

The show host repeatedly interrupted him and insulted him.  The host was not interested in presenting an opposing viewpoint to his viewers.

The guest had manners and was speaking with a clown.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: investor-man on December 09, 2018, 05:10:03 PM
Rod Rosenstein is a Republican
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 09, 2018, 05:39:00 PM
More from the "truth seeking" scumbag Adam Schiff:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlDW13JrfSQ

Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Gregmal on December 09, 2018, 05:47:35 PM
More from the "truth seeking" scumbag Adam Schiff:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlDW13JrfSQ

He's from California, should we expect anything different?
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: investor-man on December 09, 2018, 06:14:43 PM
Posting video from foxnews is not a good way to persuade us to your beliefs. It's propaganda, plain and simple.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 09, 2018, 06:22:31 PM
Posting video from foxnews is not a good way to persuade us to your beliefs. It's propaganda, plain and simple.

No, you are just closed minded - plain and simple.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: investor-man on December 09, 2018, 07:07:01 PM
You understand that Dutch Intelligence literally caught the Russian hackers on camera, right? I'm not sure what your video proves aside from Tucker Carlson is an asshole and schilling for Putin as Schiff said in the video.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 09, 2018, 07:19:56 PM
What I understand is that Adam Schiff is the biggest fraud on Capitol Hill.

To watch the little weasel Schiff accuse Carlson of carrying water for the Kremlin tells you all you need to know
about Schiff - he can't tell the truth - so he accuses the interviewer of being a traitor, an ally of Russia.

It's that tactic so well perfected by the left. Never changes.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: investor-man on December 09, 2018, 07:41:52 PM
- he can't tell the truth -
THEY CAUGHT THEM ON CAMERA
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Gregmal on December 09, 2018, 08:11:00 PM
Schiff is indeed a huge tool. I don't know how anyone, Republican or Lib, can respect a career politician. Outside of looking for petty ways to incorporate impeachment proceedings, his claim to fame is working with the most hideos looking women on Earth, fellow California leech and career politicians Diane Feinstein, to, get this, FIGHT THE FAA TO REDUCE HELICOPTER NOISE....while at the same time calling a Benghazi investigation a waste of time....
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: LC on December 10, 2018, 07:03:55 AM
- he can't tell the truth -
THEY CAUGHT THEM ON CAMERA
Facts donít matter to some people
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 10, 2018, 07:14:23 AM
- he can't tell the truth -
THEY CAUGHT THEM ON CAMERA
Facts donít matter to some people

Especially to you jokers!
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Schwab711 on December 10, 2018, 10:57:07 AM
The conspiracy has been defined, just not rigorously, yet. The terms of the 'exchange' will surely expand as we learn more.

Give: Sanctions relief

Take: help Trump become POTUS; Trump Moscow


Both elements of the 'original exchange proposal' have been defined in court documents written by Mueller. Clearly, the Trump Organization and the Russian government were involved in the quid pro quo. Trump was the CEO of the Trump Organization during this period. That's the 'collusion'.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 10, 2018, 11:32:45 AM
I am trying hard to follow this logic of "collusion" to throw the Presidential election to Donald Trump.

If I follow this - at some time, Donald Trump was in discussions to put up a building in Moscow. So, the Trump organization
had to work with the Russian government in order to put up a building.

Therefore Trump "colluded" with Russia - and the quid pro quo was Putin's role working with
Trump to throw the election his way, because Putin allowed Trump to build a building in Moscow.

I'm not sure I get it - but is this it?

Do I have your logic correctly?
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Schwab711 on December 10, 2018, 12:01:33 PM
I am trying hard to follow this logic of "collusion" to throw the Presidential election to Donald Trump.

If I follow this - at some time, Donald Trump was in discussions to put up a building in Moscow. So, the Trump organization
had to work with the Russian government in order to put up a building.

Therefore Trump "colluded" with Russia - and the quid pro quo was Putin's role working with
Trump to throw the election his way, because Putin allowed Trump to build a building in Moscow.

I'm not sure I get it - but is this it?

Do I have your logic correctly?

Define what you mean when you say 'collusion' on this site. That's probably our only chance of figuring out whether we are comparing apples and oranges or not (if you actually care).

The reason I think you should define what you mean by collusion is that, among other reasons, conspiracy doesn't require being successful. That's why I keep putting (') around collusion. I suspect this will be a worthless conversation unless I can get you to define the term and care about that definition.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 10, 2018, 12:11:20 PM
Actually, I do care. Explain it to me if you don't mind.

Explain to me how Trump worked (colluded) with the Russian government to throw the US Presidential election.
Explain to me the quid pro quo.

I'm not that bright, so explain to me like I am 10 years old. I really do care.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Schwab711 on December 10, 2018, 12:26:37 PM
Actually, I do care. Explain it to me if you don't mind.

Explain to me how Trump worked (colluded) with the Russian government to throw the US Presidential election.
Explain to me the quid pro quo.

I'm not that bright, so explain to me like I am 10 years old. I really do care.

You are deflecting because you know that the way you use the word collusion actually matches what I just laid out. Just define what you think collusion means. I already wrote what I think the court documents point to re: conspiracy by Trump Campaign/Trump Organization, in a simple way.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 10, 2018, 12:39:43 PM
Never mind Schwab - obviously you think I am trying to trick you - and I am not.

All you needed to do was fill in the blanks. It was a pretty simple request.

Feel free to offer your opinion on this "collusion" narrative:

Trump was going to build a building. He needed the Russian government to approve that.
There was going to be some sort of payments or licenses involved.
Somehow, Putin offered to "throw" the election Trump's way.
Russian hackers were successful in cracking the DNC servers - gave the files to Wikileaks.
The truth made Hillary and the Democrats look bad.
This caused Hillary to lose the election.
That was Putin's payment to Trump.

Do I have it correct?
Is this the "collusion"?


Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: LC on December 10, 2018, 03:01:01 PM
cubsfan, if I understand you correctly, you're looking for the Smocking Gun?

 ;D ;D ;D

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1072095127894667265
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: rb on December 10, 2018, 03:13:54 PM
If I follow this - at some time, Donald Trump was in discussions to put up a building in Moscow. So, the Trump organization
had to work with the Russian government in order to put up a building.

Quick question. If he was trying to build a building, why would the Trump Organization work with the Russian government instead of Moscow city hall?
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 10, 2018, 03:44:04 PM
cubsfan, if I understand you correctly, you're looking for the Smocking Gun?

 ;D ;D ;D

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1072095127894667265

Geez - Trump and that damn Twitter - can't even spell!
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: investor-man on December 10, 2018, 03:54:13 PM
Never mind Schwab - obviously you think I am trying to trick you - and I am not.

All you needed to do was fill in the blanks. It was a pretty simple request.

Feel free to offer your opinion on this "collusion" narrative:

Trump was going to build a building. He needed the Russian government to approve that.
There was going to be some sort of payments or licenses involved.
Somehow, Putin offered to "throw" the election Trump's way.
Russian hackers were successful in cracking the DNC servers - gave the files to Wikileaks.
The truth made Hillary and the Democrats look bad.
This caused Hillary to lose the election.
That was Putin's payment to Trump.

Do I have it correct?
Is this the "collusion"?

VT Bank, a sanctioned Russian bank, agreed to finance Trump Tower Moscow. It's illegal for them to do so unless the sanctions are lifted. Put that together with all of the lies Trump, his family, and their associates have told regarding their contact with Russians and their discussions about lifting the sanctions and then you've got the scenario emerging from Mueller's court filings. It's pretty simple.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 10, 2018, 04:03:38 PM
If I follow this - at some time, Donald Trump was in discussions to put up a building in Moscow. So, the Trump organization
had to work with the Russian government in order to put up a building.

Quick question. If he was trying to build a building, why would the Trump Organization work with the Russian government instead of Moscow city hall?

We need one of our Russian experts to weigh in - cause I just don't know - but it would not shock me if you
are putting up one of the biggest buildings in Moscow - you might need the Russian Gov to cooperate.

But I really don't know.



Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 10, 2018, 04:06:19 PM
Never mind Schwab - obviously you think I am trying to trick you - and I am not.

All you needed to do was fill in the blanks. It was a pretty simple request.

Feel free to offer your opinion on this "collusion" narrative:

Trump was going to build a building. He needed the Russian government to approve that.
There was going to be some sort of payments or licenses involved.
Somehow, Putin offered to "throw" the election Trump's way.
Russian hackers were successful in cracking the DNC servers - gave the files to Wikileaks.
The truth made Hillary and the Democrats look bad.
This caused Hillary to lose the election.
That was Putin's payment to Trump.

Do I have it correct?
Is this the "collusion"?

VT Bank, a sanctioned Russian bank, agreed to finance Trump Tower Moscow. It's illegal for them to do so unless the sanctions are lifted. Put that together with all of the lies Trump, his family, and their associates have told regarding their contact with Russians and their discussions about lifting the sanctions and then you've got the scenario emerging from Mueller's court filings. It's pretty simple.

Where was the throwing of the Presidential Election?
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Gregmal on December 10, 2018, 04:13:24 PM
It's pretty clear what the strategy here is.

Let's face it, the Trump RE Empire did/does deal with some sketchy people and places. DJT being the head of it, runs for president but still keeps running his business. So there will obviously be an overlap, which there is. The crybaby libs, lost the election, and began a massive witch hunt claiming the election was rigged by Trump and the Russians. They've looked everywhere, and found nothing having to do with that. So, the next obvious step is to look elsewhere. So they'll find business dealings with Russians, which may have been legal, may not have been, and call that their PROOF. They'll then also settle on trying to trump up what is at best, a campaign finance violation, and these two things are now grounds for them to continue their crusade to overthrow the 2016 election. Even though neither those two issues(building a hotel in Russia, or a campaign finance violation) had ANYTHING to do with Trump/Russia rigging the election. Can we all not see this???
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Schwab711 on December 10, 2018, 04:18:09 PM
This is why I asked you what you think collusion means. What does 'throwing the presidential election' mean?

On just Trump Moscow, that "normal government permit" was with a country he lied about having business with and the office he was running for is explicitly banned from carrying out that business by the Constitution.

It's a big deal. A fair chunk of the Federalist Papers are about the dangers of this exact behavior.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 10, 2018, 04:25:13 PM
This is why I asked you what you think collusion means. What does 'throwing the presidential election' mean?

On just Trump Moscow, that "normal government permit" was with a country he lied about having business with and the office he was running for is explicitly banned from carrying out that business by the Constitution.

It's a big deal. A fair chunk of the Federalist Papers are about the dangers of this exact behavior.

Schwab - this is not really that difficult believe me - I gave you a scenario - just say yes or no - or change it.
Where is the collusion or agreement or whatever you would like to call it - the quid pro quo between the Russian government
and Donald Trump to cause Hillary Clinton to lose the election.

It's not that hard - the Russians hacked the DNC servers - gave info to Wikileaks - Hillary looked bad and lost.

Why is this Donald Trumps fault?
Where is the collusion?

Are you saying that the Russians did this to "pay back" Trump because he was going to put up a building and pay them fees?

It's really a simple question. What IS the collusion?
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 10, 2018, 04:29:16 PM
It's pretty clear what the strategy here is.

Let's face it, the Trump RE Empire did/does deal with some sketchy people and places. DJT being the head of it, runs for president but still keeps running his business. So there will obviously be an overlap, which there is. The crybaby libs, lost the election, and began a massive witch hunt claiming the election was rigged by Trump and the Russians. They've looked everywhere, and found nothing having to do with that. So, the next obvious step is to look elsewhere. So they'll find business dealings with Russians, which may have been legal, may not have been, and call that their PROOF. They'll then also settle on trying to trump up what is at best, a campaign finance violation, and these two things are now grounds for them to continue their crusade to overthrow the 2016 election. Even though neither those two issues(building a hotel in Russia, or a campaign finance violation) had ANYTHING to do with Trump/Russia rigging the election. Can we all not see this???


THANK YOU SIR - NOW I GET IT - How simple!

So no collusion - just a partisan effort to discredit a democratically elected US President.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Schwab711 on December 10, 2018, 04:34:51 PM
This is why I asked you what you think collusion means. What does 'throwing the presidential election' mean?

On just Trump Moscow, that "normal government permit" was with a country he lied about having business with and the office he was running for is explicitly banned from carrying out that business by the Constitution.

It's a big deal. A fair chunk of the Federalist Papers are about the dangers of this exact behavior.

Schwab - this is not really that difficult believe me - I gave you a scenario - just say yes or no - or change it.
Where is the collusion or agreement or whatever you would like to call it - the quid pro quo between the Russian government
and Donald Trump to cause Hillary Clinton to lose the election.

It's not that hard - the Russians hacked the DNC servers - gave info to Wikileaks - Hillary looked bad and lost.

Why is this Donald Trumps fault?
Where is the collusion?

Are you saying that the Russians did this to "pay back" Trump because he was going to put up a building and pay them fees?

It's really a simple question. What IS the collusion?

Russian sanctions for business interests. That's all we know about. The GRU indictment hints that Trump knew how Russia planned to help him win the election but your definition of collusion is overly narrow. It's making you miss the criminal conspiracy developing.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: investor-man on December 10, 2018, 04:43:25 PM
It's pretty clear what the strategy here is.

Let's face it, the Trump RE Empire did/does deal with some sketchy people and places. DJT being the head of it, runs for president but still keeps running his business. So there will obviously be an overlap, which there is. The crybaby libs, lost the election, and began a massive witch hunt claiming the election was rigged by Trump and the Russians. They've looked everywhere, and found nothing having to do with that. So, the next obvious step is to look elsewhere. So they'll find business dealings with Russians, which may have been legal, may not have been, and call that their PROOF. They'll then also settle on trying to trump up what is at best, a campaign finance violation, and these two things are now grounds for them to continue their crusade to overthrow the 2016 election. Even though neither those two issues(building a hotel in Russia, or a campaign finance violation) had ANYTHING to do with Trump/Russia rigging the election. Can we all not see this???

Gregmal,

I'm not a "lib". I'm a citizen concerned his country is being run by a guy who appears to be both susceptible to and under the influence of Russian blackmail, and who is acting to serve his own self interests rather than ours.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 10, 2018, 04:51:01 PM
I'm sure if you contort the law enough you will come up with an extremely flimsy indictment.
Mueller, with two years in the making - and very, very little substance on collusion.

Like Greg said - Democrats lost their minds - and started the partisan witch hunt.

I'm really interested in seeing ANY conspiracy/collusion/whatever between the Russians AND Trump to throw the election.
So far nothing.

For years, Russians have been interfering in foreign elections, not just US, - after all, they are Russians - that's what they do.
They try and destabilize countries on their borders and others that have strategic benefit.

I see no difference with the current situation and past Russian history - the only difference this time - is the opposition party
is trying to pin the interference on Donald Trump.

You guys need to come up with something better.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Schwab711 on December 10, 2018, 04:58:03 PM
At no point in US history has a US politician been referenced in a court document like Trump was in the GRU indictment. You don't see a difference because you don't want to. Trump lied about what he was doing during the campaign and will have to face the consequences. He could've reported it. He could've reported a lot of behavior to the FBI during the campaign and none of this would be happening. Trump is to blame for Trump's legal issues.

The election was fair and Trump won. No one denies that. Assange thought  Trump's chances of victory were 25% in August 2016, identical to Nate Silver. The biggest election mover was Comey. Idon't know what 'throw' refers to but it's vague nonsense. Conspiracy to Defraud the US is a very real crime. Further, Manafort pled guilty to that exact crime.

Finally, the Uranium One allegation is identical to Trump Moscow/Sanctions. In the yet to be made allegation against Trump, there's proof. You are a hypocrite. All you do is call everyone that sees concerns some name with 'lib' in it to avoid introspective review. Trump's legal problems will continue regardless of any of us.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: investor-man on December 10, 2018, 05:08:43 PM
This is why I asked you what you think collusion means. What does 'throwing the presidential election' mean?

On just Trump Moscow, that "normal government permit" was with a country he lied about having business with and the office he was running for is explicitly banned from carrying out that business by the Constitution.

It's a big deal. A fair chunk of the Federalist Papers are about the dangers of this exact behavior.

Schwab - this is not really that difficult believe me - I gave you a scenario - just say yes or no - or change it.
Where is the collusion or agreement or whatever you would like to call it - the quid pro quo between the Russian government
and Donald Trump to cause Hillary Clinton to lose the election.

It's not that hard - the Russians hacked the DNC servers - gave info to Wikileaks - Hillary looked bad and lost.

Why is this Donald Trumps fault?
Where is the collusion?

Are you saying that the Russians did this to "pay back" Trump because he was going to put up a building and pay them fees?

It's really a simple question. What IS the collusion?

Russian sanctions for business interests. That's all we know about. The GRU indictment hints that Trump knew how Russia planned to help him win the election but your definition of collusion is overly narrow. It's making you miss the criminal conspiracy developing.

That's putting it mildly.

* DJTJ releases emails showing he agreed to meet with Russians to discuss getting dirt on Clinton
* Notably he says "this is great for late summer"
* In late summer Trump says "Russia, I hope you can find Clinton's missing emails."
* Russia finds Clinton's emails
* We know Russia found the email because Dutch intelligence caught them hacking the DNC's server ON CAMERA
* Wikilieaks releases the emails
* Afterward, Wikileaks contacts DJTJ privately on Twitter with yet more hacked shit
* The Russians from the Trump Tower meeting attend the fucking inauguration (you need an invite)
* The Russians attend Rep Dana Rohrabacher's inauguration ball - you know, the guy Paul Ryan said Putin pays.
* Gen. Flynn is fired for lying to VP Pence about his contact with Russians
* Jeff Session recuses himself from the Russia investigation
* James Comey is fired over the Russia investigation
* Trump consistently antagonizes Jeff Session publicly over his recusal
* George Papadopoulos pleads guilty for lying to the FBI
* Rick Gates pleads pleads guilty for lying to the FBI
* Gen. Flynn pleads guilty for lying to the FBI
* a shload of Russians are indicted for their role in attacking the US elections
* Michael Cohen testifies that Trump Tower Moscow would bring hundreds of millions into the Trump's pockets
* We just found out Paul Manafort met with Julian Assange

And this is just the stuff I can come up with off the top of my head.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Gregmal on December 10, 2018, 05:13:47 PM
Is this conspiracy, or a conspiracy? Maybe we should tell Adam Schiff he can now go back to investigating helicopter noise...
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: investor-man on December 10, 2018, 05:14:53 PM
you guys ever think Gregmal and cubsfan are just trollin'?
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Gregmal on December 10, 2018, 05:27:24 PM
https://twitter.com/repadamschiff/status/344282274197561344

This is what our friend Mr. Schiff was doing before Trump. The sad truth is that the bulk of these libtards NEED DJT in order to be relevant
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: investor-man on December 10, 2018, 05:35:58 PM
https://twitter.com/repadamschiff/status/344282274197561344

This is what our friend Mr. Schiff was doing before Trump. The sad truth is that the bulk of these libtards NEED DJT in order to be relevant

He's working for his constituents. That's why he was elected. Go after Cortez. At least she's acting like a fool.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Spekulatius on December 10, 2018, 05:38:53 PM
The US laws are very strict, as it pertains to corruption charges, in particular with foreign government employees. Even if you have nothing to do with political, offering a penthouse to president Putin (or any foreign government  official for that matter) would be corruption and may lead to jail time. even worse when a participant is working for the US government. Now we have Kushner Consulting the Saudiís (on how to deal with the Kashoggi crisis) and all that.

Whether  they really impacted the US elections does not really matter since even the intend should get you into the slammer, as the laws are written.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Gregmal on December 10, 2018, 05:54:55 PM
https://twitter.com/repadamschiff/status/344282274197561344

This is what our friend Mr. Schiff was doing before Trump. The sad truth is that the bulk of these libtards NEED DJT in order to be relevant

He's working for his constituents. That's why he was elected. Go after Cortez. At least she's acting like a fool.

She's doing a good job of representing her constituents. Are you familiar with the district she represents?
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: investor-man on December 10, 2018, 06:35:54 PM
Let's keep it civil. No need for name calling.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Schwab711 on December 10, 2018, 07:05:49 PM
At no point in US history has a US politician been referenced in a court document like Trump was in the GRU indictment. You don't see a difference because you don't want to. Trump lied about what he was doing during the campaign and will have to face the consequences. He could've reported it. He could've reported a lot of behavior to the FBI during the campaign and none of this would be happening. Trump is to blame for Trump's legal issues.

The election was fair and Trump won. No one denies that. Assange thought  Trump's chances of victory were 25% in August 2016, identical to Nate Silver. The biggest election mover was Comey. Idon't know what 'throw' refers to but it's vague nonsense. Conspiracy to Defraud the US is a very real crime. Further, Manafort pled guilty to that exact crime.

Finally, the Uranium One allegation is identical to Trump Moscow/Sanctions. In the yet to be made allegation against Trump, there's proof. You are a hypocrite. All you do is call everyone that sees concerns some name with 'lib' in it to avoid introspective review. Trump's legal problems will continue regardless of any of us.

You are being a total asshole Schwab - once again. I asked you to make the link between the Trump and Russia - and you
refuse to do it. Now you are just making stuff up, which is more like the Schwab I know.

What the hell is "Conspiracy to Defraud the US?" ----  Where is the Trump crime? You really are an idiot.

Trump talked to someone about putting up a building. No building was ever put up. VT Bank "agreed to finance the project".
VT Bank Chairman denies ever having any conversation in regards such a project.

You are such a fool - twisting hypotheticals as usual into "crimes".

Where is the crime, the collusion?

Business interests and sanctions. That's the 'collusion'. Collusion is a nothing word come to find out. Like saying market value instead of fair market value. Conspiracy is what everyone means. Trump has done that. You are choosing to name call instead of read my posts after I took your admission you weren't tricking me at face value...
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: rb on December 10, 2018, 07:29:16 PM
you guys ever think Gregmal and cubsfan are just trollin'?
Can't say about cubsfan, i think he's just a Trump guy. But Scottie, our great and glorious, self identified troll pointed out Gregmal as a troll. I'd go with his judgement. Even if he was very annoying Scottie tended to be an honest troll. Feels very weird to say all of this.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 10, 2018, 07:31:47 PM
You get what you deserve Schwab. You call me a hypocrite and expect me to not respond in kind to you?
Don't be a baby.

Business interest and sanctions??


What business was transacted?   Where is the quid pro quo?  What conspiracy happened?

There is no building. There is no penthouse.

You are dealing in hypotheticals.



Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: rb on December 10, 2018, 07:33:21 PM
If I follow this - at some time, Donald Trump was in discussions to put up a building in Moscow. So, the Trump organization
had to work with the Russian government in order to put up a building.

Quick question. If he was trying to build a building, why would the Trump Organization work with the Russian government instead of Moscow city hall?

We need one of our Russian experts to weigh in - cause I just don't know - but it would not shock me if you
are putting up one of the biggest buildings in Moscow - you might need the Russian Gov to cooperate.

But I really don't know.
You don't. Just like in the US and anywhere else in the world the federal government doesn't concern itself with local zoning laws. They have better things to do. That's why the put in place local governments.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: rb on December 10, 2018, 07:35:39 PM
You get what you deserve Schwab. You call me a hypocrite and expect me to not respond in kind to you?
Don't be a baby.

Business interest and sanctions??

What business was transacted?   Where is the quid pro quo?  What conspiracy happened?

There is no building. There is no penthouse.

You are dealing in hypotheticals.
Well there was that Helsinki thing. That was quite a "quo".
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Schwab711 on December 10, 2018, 07:43:12 PM
You get what you deserve Schwab. You call me a hypocrite and expect me to not respond in kind to you?
Don't be a baby.

Business interest and sanctions??


What business was transacted?   Where is the quid pro quo?  What conspiracy happened?

There is no building. There is no penthouse.

You are dealing in hypotheticals.

The plan to build the building in connection to some other payoff is the definition of conspiracy. It's a felony to plan to commit a felony and to make actions to progress the plan.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 10, 2018, 07:50:15 PM
You get what you deserve Schwab. You call me a hypocrite and expect me to not respond in kind to you?
Don't be a baby.

Business interest and sanctions??


What business was transacted?   Where is the quid pro quo?  What conspiracy happened?

There is no building. There is no penthouse.

You are dealing in hypotheticals.

The plan to build the building in connection to some other payoff is the definition of conspiracy. It's a felony to plan to commit a felony and to make actions to progress the plan.

Now this is getting comical.

Where is this payoff that you are talking about?

You know, the payoff for this building that never happened but they were thinking about building one of these days.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Schwab711 on December 10, 2018, 08:27:20 PM
Earlier you were simple and couldn't understand what I was saying. Now it's commical and you're an expert.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Gregmal on December 10, 2018, 08:30:56 PM
you guys ever think Gregmal and cubsfan are just trollin'?
Can't say about cubsfan, i think he's just a Trump guy. But Scottie, our great and glorious, self identified troll pointed out Gregmal as a troll. I'd go with his judgement. Even if he was very annoying Scottie tended to be an honest troll. Feels very weird to say all of this.

This is kind of a cute way to attempt to marginalize or avoid addressing points of contention. There are an awful lot of emotionally fragile Nancy's here.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 10, 2018, 08:57:56 PM
Earlier you were simple and couldn't understand what I was saying. Now it's commical and you're an expert.

I am simple. I'm certainly no expert. This does not pass the smell test.

We are talking about grounds to remove a duly elected US President. Someone the public wants to run this country.
This is serious stuff. It seems to me we should have a VERY high bar to remove him. It should not be built on hypotheticals.
Maybe this would have happened, and maybe that would have happened, etc.

And it is a travesty of justice if it is a case built on political partisanship.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: LC on December 10, 2018, 09:19:49 PM
Quote
We are talking about grounds to remove a duly elected US President. Someone the public wants to run this country.
You say these two things as if they are equivalent.

Regardless, Trump obviously does not pass the smell test. If he were CEO of OilCo doing business in Russian mines, we would all be running with our capital for the hills. But you're behaving like the sunk-cost investor who ignores the red flags.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: rb on December 10, 2018, 09:26:10 PM
you guys ever think Gregmal and cubsfan are just trollin'?
Can't say about cubsfan, i think he's just a Trump guy. But Scottie, our great and glorious, self identified troll pointed out Gregmal as a troll. I'd go with his judgement. Even if he was very annoying Scottie tended to be an honest troll. Feels very weird to say all of this.
This is kind of a cute way to attempt to marginalize or avoid addressing points of contention. There are an awful lot of emotionally fragile Nancy's here.
I'm not a fragile Nancy and Scottie made good points. Furthermore, Scottie has been way more honest in his posts and trolling than you ever were. So if it needs to come to that... I'll go with Scottie and his oppinion. File that under words I never thought I'd utter.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: rb on December 10, 2018, 09:30:33 PM
Quote
We are talking about grounds to remove a duly elected US President. Someone the public wants to run this country.
You say these two things as if they are equivalent.

Regardless, Trump obviously does not pass the smell test. If he were CEO of OilCo doing business in Russian mines, we would all be running with our capital for the hills. But you're behaving like the sunk-cost investor who ignores the red flags.
Yea, just to nitpick a little, the public doesn't want him to run the country. The electoral college does. I'm not saying that he's not duly elected, but you don't get to wrap yourself with the righteous blanket of the public. Leave the public alone.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 11, 2018, 06:32:38 AM
Thanks for all the clarification boys.

So, let's see:

Trump knows a guy, that knows a guy, that knows a guy.... and one of those guys might be able to arrange a meeting
with the Russian government about building a building in Moscow one of these days. And it if the building ever gets built,
Vladimir Putin might get a penthouse according to one of the "guys".  And if building is approved, there will be
license fees paid. And bank financing may be approved by VT Bank, although the CEO of VT says no such discussions
ever happened. And perhaps along the way, Putin will help Trump win the election.

But there is no building or penthouse or bank financing, or project, etc.

But Trump THOUGHT about doing it - so this constitutes the collusion and/or conspiracy between Trump and Putin.

But some guys said so, (Russian or otherwise), and some of those guys may indicted and/or convicted already
by Bob Mueller and face jail time. So this means Trump is guilty.

Sounds awful hypothetical to me.




Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: ERICOPOLY on December 11, 2018, 03:14:24 PM
Rep. Zoe Lofgren asks Google CEO why she got Trump pictures when she searched for 'idiot'

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/12/11/idiot-google-search-trump-result/2276429002/
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: investor-man on December 11, 2018, 03:22:00 PM
Rep. Zoe Lofgren asks Google CEO why she got Trump pictures when she searched for 'idiot'

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/12/11/idiot-google-search-trump-result/2276429002/

Steve King had some concerns about his iPhone too
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Parsad on December 11, 2018, 11:10:18 PM
Thanks for all the clarification boys.

So, let's see:

Trump knows a guy, that knows a guy, that knows a guy.... and one of those guys might be able to arrange a meeting
with the Russian government about building a building in Moscow one of these days. And it if the building ever gets built,
Vladimir Putin might get a penthouse according to one of the "guys".  And if building is approved, there will be
license fees paid. And bank financing may be approved by VT Bank, although the CEO of VT says no such discussions
ever happened. And perhaps along the way, Putin will help Trump win the election.

But there is no building or penthouse or bank financing, or project, etc.

But Trump THOUGHT about doing it - so this constitutes the collusion and/or conspiracy between Trump and Putin.

But some guys said so, (Russian or otherwise), and some of those guys may indicted and/or convicted already
by Bob Mueller and face jail time. So this means Trump is guilty.

Sounds awful hypothetical to me.

It isn't Trump knows a guy, who knows a guy:

https://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2018/12/10/lead-alex-marquardt-russia-live-jake-tapper.cnn

How do you not think that at the very least this is unusual?  Clearly confirmation bias is at work with many Trump supporters who completely discount the conduct of people around him.  Cheers!
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 12, 2018, 06:06:44 AM
Parsad - thank you for your civil post.

Here is why I do not believe this is unusual. Just read Greg's summary again - and I'll add these comments:

 - You have a businessman, at some time, thinking about a project in Moscow - one of these days.
    It's not a big secret that Trump might want to expand his empire internationally.
    People think, they talk, they plan for the future, etc. Then nothing happens. Zilch. Nada.
   
-   At the same time, you have a government, Russia - who ALWAYS meddles and tries to create chaos
    in foreign elections. They target their border countries and other countries deemed strategic.
    That's what Russians do - they want create instability and chaos for their benefit. They are not good guys.
    This is certainly not new.

So how difficult is it for an overzealous investigator, in search of a crime, driven in a highly partisan political
environment to construct a circumstantial case against a sitting president?   Well - it's looking pretty tough
2 years into it..

But you can make these links "he thought about this, and his operatives discussed that, etc, etc"
Therefore they colluded, they conspired, etc, etc.

So now, per your clip, you have 22 people "involved" in collusion, discussions, conspiracy, etc, etc.
Give Mueller another 2 years. There are 100 million Russians living around the world. I'm sure
Mueller will find another 1000 Russians or operatives to add to his contorted collusion case because
"someone" that knew Donald Trump talked (colluded) with them about something.
And the more people you add to your "collusion" list - the more true it becomes because of sheer
numbers - regardless of what actually happened.

This has a familiar ring of the Kavanaugh witch hunt to it - that was a total travesty.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: MarkS on December 12, 2018, 06:50:42 AM
Foreign governments attempting to influence US policy is rampant in Washington.  See attached https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2018/08/foreign-interests-fara-lobby-watch-exclusive/
You suggest that it's uncommon.  I would love to know how many times the Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Germans .... contacted people in the Trump administration. I suspect you would be surprised.  I doubt that you could swing a golf club in Washington without hitting a foreign lobbyist.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: cubsfan on December 12, 2018, 07:59:38 AM
Mark - this does not surprise me in the least. Nice link.

I am referencing a coordinated plan between the Russian gov and Trump built on all these hypotheticals.

I guess we will have to wait to see the Mueller report to see the totality of this vast conspiracy.

Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: MarkS on December 12, 2018, 09:09:37 AM
I'm glad you liked the link, cubsfan.   I had meant to address my post to Parsad and the CNN article that he referenced.  But somehow his name disappeared from my post. From what I understand, the professional political class from both sides of the aisle in Washington have extensive connections with other foreign agents.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Parsad on December 12, 2018, 01:58:38 PM
Parsad - thank you for your civil post.

Here is why I do not believe this is unusual. Just read Greg's summary again - and I'll add these comments:

 - You have a businessman, at some time, thinking about a project in Moscow - one of these days.
    It's not a big secret that Trump might want to expand his empire internationally.
    People think, they talk, they plan for the future, etc. Then nothing happens. Zilch. Nada.
   
-   At the same time, you have a government, Russia - who ALWAYS meddles and tries to create chaos
    in foreign elections. They target their border countries and other countries deemed strategic.
    That's what Russians do - they want create instability and chaos for their benefit. They are not good guys.
    This is certainly not new.

So how difficult is it for an overzealous investigator, in search of a crime, driven in a highly partisan political
environment to construct a circumstantial case against a sitting president?   Well - it's looking pretty tough
2 years into it..

But you can make these links "he thought about this, and his operatives discussed that, etc, etc"
Therefore they colluded, they conspired, etc, etc.

So now, per your clip, you have 22 people "involved" in collusion, discussions, conspiracy, etc, etc.
Give Mueller another 2 years. There are 100 million Russians living around the world. I'm sure
Mueller will find another 1000 Russians or operatives to add to his contorted collusion case because
"someone" that knew Donald Trump talked (colluded) with them about something.
And the more people you add to your "collusion" list - the more true it becomes because of sheer
numbers - regardless of what actually happened.

This has a familiar ring of the Kavanaugh witch hunt to it - that was a total travesty.

I agree with you on the whole Kavanugh thing...it was a joke.  The farce in the Oval Office yesterday was too...but again it was all of them making asses of themselves, with Pence looking mighty scary if he ever became President...that guy would take us back to the Stone Age!

Cubsfan, if we were presenting the same evidence and information about some mob family, there would be zero outcry.  But because this is the President, who happens to be Trump, there is a wave of disbelief and incomprehensibility by those very same people.  Cohen himself is now going to serve 3 years in prison, and stated unequivocally that he did bad things for Trump.  That alone should be of concern to Trump's supporters who view it as simply "shenanigans" and not pure corruption.  Cheers!
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Parsad on December 12, 2018, 02:01:03 PM
I'm glad you liked the link, cubsfan.   I had meant to address my post to Parsad and the CNN article that he referenced.  But somehow his name disappeared from my post. From what I understand, the professional political class from both sides of the aisle in Washington have extensive connections with other foreign agents.

I have no doubt about that MarkS...but it doesn't negate from what the Trump administration is guilty of, including tax evasion, bribes, perjury and possibly treason.  Cheers!
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: MarkS on December 12, 2018, 03:25:49 PM
Considering that public trust in media is at historic lows, I'm surprised Parsed that you would rely on media reports to convict someone before they've had their day in court.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Parsad on December 12, 2018, 03:48:54 PM
Considering that public trust in media is at historic lows, I'm surprised Parsed that you would rely on media reports to convict someone before they've had their day in court.

Broad human psychology generally tends to move opposite to reality...why stock markets are not completely efficient and people underestimated Trump. 

Cohen, Flynn and Manafort are already headed to the hoosegow, how little trust are people putting in the media...exactly the problem with Trump and his supporters.  Cheers!
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: investor-man on December 12, 2018, 05:16:39 PM
Parsad - thank you for your civil post.

Here is why I do not believe this is unusual. Just read Greg's summary again - and I'll add these comments:

 - You have a businessman, at some time, thinking about a project in Moscow - one of these days.
    It's not a big secret that Trump might want to expand his empire internationally.
    People think, they talk, they plan for the future, etc. Then nothing happens. Zilch. Nada.
   
-   At the same time, you have a government, Russia - who ALWAYS meddles and tries to create chaos
    in foreign elections. They target their border countries and other countries deemed strategic.
    That's what Russians do - they want create instability and chaos for their benefit. They are not good guys.
    This is certainly not new.

So how difficult is it for an overzealous investigator, in search of a crime, driven in a highly partisan political
environment to construct a circumstantial case against a sitting president?   Well - it's looking pretty tough
2 years into it..

But you can make these links "he thought about this, and his operatives discussed that, etc, etc"
Therefore they colluded, they conspired, etc, etc.

So now, per your clip, you have 22 people "involved" in collusion, discussions, conspiracy, etc, etc.
Give Mueller another 2 years. There are 100 million Russians living around the world. I'm sure
Mueller will find another 1000 Russians or operatives to add to his contorted collusion case because
"someone" that knew Donald Trump talked (colluded) with them about something.
And the more people you add to your "collusion" list - the more true it becomes because of sheer
numbers - regardless of what actually happened.

This has a familiar ring of the Kavanaugh witch hunt to it - that was a total travesty.

Heh, where there's smoke there's a babbling brook
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Schwab711 on December 12, 2018, 06:00:29 PM
Considering that public trust in media is at historic lows, I'm surprised Parsed that you would rely on media reports to convict someone before they've had their day in court.

Without trusting a world of the media and going just off court docs, Trump is implicated in felonies and it's heavily hinted he will be implicated in conspiracy with a foreign government.

I'd also argue in a debate club type way that folks here used the logic of foreign payments (not from foreign governments) + adjacent political decisions, based solely on 'media' reports, to claim that the Clinton's broke laws with Uranium One. Now it's 'have their day in court' even though a POTUS is exempt from facing federal court for anything. It seems like contradictory logic by many here, from a pure debate point of view.

Edit: I suppose to further the point on the court docs. Butina's plea deal hints at the NRA/GOP/Trump Campaign back-channel and potentially illegal funding. I recognize this still doesn't include Trump's name explicitly in the conspiracy portion of the allegations, but realistically, if there was a conspiracy between Trump and the Russian government, that would be announced at the last possible moment because Trump also happens to be the most powerful man in the world with nearly unlimited power. Between the court docs and Sam Patten's cooperation/plea, we are certainly getting closer to court docs describing portions of the conspiracy.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Hawks on December 13, 2018, 06:36:25 PM
How many individuals within a Presidents administration, campaign, etc went to jail in the 4 administrations of Bush, Clinton, Obama and Trump?  Currently under Trump my count is 2 went to jail and 2 more pending sentencing. Would be an interesting factual comparison.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Gregmal on December 13, 2018, 06:45:00 PM
I think pardons are equally as relevent

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton_pardon_controversyg

Lots of good stuff like :

First Lady Hillary Clinton's youngest brother, Tony Rodham, was an acquaintance of the Gregorys, and had lobbied Clinton on their behalf.[15] In October 2006, the group Judicial Watch filed a request with the U.S. Justice Department for an investigation, alleging that Rodham had received $107,000 from the Gregorys for the pardons in the form of loans that were never repaid, as part of a quid pro quo scheme.

and

Federal prosecutor Mary Jo White was appointed to investigate the pardon of Marc Rich. She was later replaced by then-Republican James Comey, who found no illegality on Clinton's part.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Parsad on December 14, 2018, 01:36:17 AM
I think pardons are equally as relevent

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton_pardon_controversyg

Lots of good stuff like :

First Lady Hillary Clinton's youngest brother, Tony Rodham, was an acquaintance of the Gregorys, and had lobbied Clinton on their behalf.[15] In October 2006, the group Judicial Watch filed a request with the U.S. Justice Department for an investigation, alleging that Rodham had received $107,000 from the Gregorys for the pardons in the form of loans that were never repaid, as part of a quid pro quo scheme.

and

Federal prosecutor Mary Jo White was appointed to investigate the pardon of Marc Rich. She was later replaced by then-Republican James Comey, who found no illegality on Clinton's part.

Again, your argument is a frickin' joke!  You're equating one irregular and unethical act with another to make it ok.  If the Clinton's were pedophiles, so that makes it ok for Trump to be one...this is what you are saying.  Cheers!
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Gregmal on December 14, 2018, 02:20:18 AM
I think pardons are equally as relevent

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton_pardon_controversyg

Lots of good stuff like :

First Lady Hillary Clinton's youngest brother, Tony Rodham, was an acquaintance of the Gregorys, and had lobbied Clinton on their behalf.[15] In October 2006, the group Judicial Watch filed a request with the U.S. Justice Department for an investigation, alleging that Rodham had received $107,000 from the Gregorys for the pardons in the form of loans that were never repaid, as part of a quid pro quo scheme.

and

Federal prosecutor Mary Jo White was appointed to investigate the pardon of Marc Rich. She was later replaced by then-Republican James Comey, who found no illegality on Clinton's part.

Again, your argument is a frickin' joke!  You're equating one irregular and unethical act with another to make it ok.  If the Clinton's were pedophiles, so that makes it ok for Trump to be one...this is what you are saying.  Cheers!

Interesting. It's called "partisan ranting" when it's about Obama or Clinton. But when it's about Trump.....
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Spekulatius on December 14, 2018, 04:14:26 AM
I think pardons are equally as relevent

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton_pardon_controversyg

Lots of good stuff like :

First Lady Hillary Clinton's youngest brother, Tony Rodham, was an acquaintance of the Gregorys, and had lobbied Clinton on their behalf.[15] In October 2006, the group Judicial Watch filed a request with the U.S. Justice Department for an investigation, alleging that Rodham had received $107,000 from the Gregorys for the pardons in the form of loans that were never repaid, as part of a quid pro quo scheme.

and

Federal prosecutor Mary Jo White was appointed to investigate the pardon of Marc Rich. She was later replaced by then-Republican James Comey, who found no illegality on Clinton's part.

Again, your argument is a frickin' joke!  You're equating one irregular and unethical act with another to make it ok.  If the Clinton's were pedophiles, so that makes it ok for Trump to be one...this is what you are saying.  Cheers!

Interesting. It's called "partisan ranting" when it's about Obama or Clinton. But when it's about Trump.....

Well, crooks running this country and have or had enough convicts in their employment to fill a jail tract are much more bothersome than crooks that are retired.
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: Parsad on December 14, 2018, 09:12:24 AM
I think pardons are equally as relevent

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton_pardon_controversyg

Lots of good stuff like :

First Lady Hillary Clinton's youngest brother, Tony Rodham, was an acquaintance of the Gregorys, and had lobbied Clinton on their behalf.[15] In October 2006, the group Judicial Watch filed a request with the U.S. Justice Department for an investigation, alleging that Rodham had received $107,000 from the Gregorys for the pardons in the form of loans that were never repaid, as part of a quid pro quo scheme.

and

Federal prosecutor Mary Jo White was appointed to investigate the pardon of Marc Rich. She was later replaced by then-Republican James Comey, who found no illegality on Clinton's part.

Again, your argument is a frickin' joke!  You're equating one irregular and unethical act with another to make it ok.  If the Clinton's were pedophiles, so that makes it ok for Trump to be one...this is what you are saying.  Cheers!

Interesting. It's called "partisan ranting" when it's about Obama or Clinton. But when it's about Trump.....

Well, crooks running this country and have or had enough convicts in their employment to fill a jail tract are much more bothersome than crooks that are retired.

Personally, I'm not happy with either.  If the Clinton's are guilty of various things, they should do the time.  The rules aren't made for just a proportion of the population...both parties should remember that.  Cheers!
Title: Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
Post by: ERICOPOLY on December 14, 2018, 09:54:49 AM
Trump is just like a child.  You catch him doing something wrong and he says "but you aren't punishing my sister, not fair!".

He has a sister named Hillary.