Author Topic: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!  (Read 9372 times)

MarkS

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Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
« Reply #90 on: December 12, 2018, 06:50:42 AM »
Foreign governments attempting to influence US policy is rampant in Washington.  See attached https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2018/08/foreign-interests-fara-lobby-watch-exclusive/
You suggest that it's uncommon.  I would love to know how many times the Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Germans .... contacted people in the Trump administration. I suspect you would be surprised.  I doubt that you could swing a golf club in Washington without hitting a foreign lobbyist.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 07:42:51 AM by MarkS »


cubsfan

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Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
« Reply #91 on: December 12, 2018, 07:59:38 AM »
Mark - this does not surprise me in the least. Nice link.

I am referencing a coordinated plan between the Russian gov and Trump built on all these hypotheticals.

I guess we will have to wait to see the Mueller report to see the totality of this vast conspiracy.


MarkS

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Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
« Reply #92 on: December 12, 2018, 09:09:37 AM »
I'm glad you liked the link, cubsfan.   I had meant to address my post to Parsad and the CNN article that he referenced.  But somehow his name disappeared from my post. From what I understand, the professional political class from both sides of the aisle in Washington have extensive connections with other foreign agents.

Parsad

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Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
« Reply #93 on: December 12, 2018, 01:58:38 PM »
Parsad - thank you for your civil post.

Here is why I do not believe this is unusual. Just read Greg's summary again - and I'll add these comments:

 - You have a businessman, at some time, thinking about a project in Moscow - one of these days.
    It's not a big secret that Trump might want to expand his empire internationally.
    People think, they talk, they plan for the future, etc. Then nothing happens. Zilch. Nada.
   
-   At the same time, you have a government, Russia - who ALWAYS meddles and tries to create chaos
    in foreign elections. They target their border countries and other countries deemed strategic.
    That's what Russians do - they want create instability and chaos for their benefit. They are not good guys.
    This is certainly not new.

So how difficult is it for an overzealous investigator, in search of a crime, driven in a highly partisan political
environment to construct a circumstantial case against a sitting president?   Well - it's looking pretty tough
2 years into it..

But you can make these links "he thought about this, and his operatives discussed that, etc, etc"
Therefore they colluded, they conspired, etc, etc.

So now, per your clip, you have 22 people "involved" in collusion, discussions, conspiracy, etc, etc.
Give Mueller another 2 years. There are 100 million Russians living around the world. I'm sure
Mueller will find another 1000 Russians or operatives to add to his contorted collusion case because
"someone" that knew Donald Trump talked (colluded) with them about something.
And the more people you add to your "collusion" list - the more true it becomes because of sheer
numbers - regardless of what actually happened.

This has a familiar ring of the Kavanaugh witch hunt to it - that was a total travesty.

I agree with you on the whole Kavanugh thing...it was a joke.  The farce in the Oval Office yesterday was too...but again it was all of them making asses of themselves, with Pence looking mighty scary if he ever became President...that guy would take us back to the Stone Age!

Cubsfan, if we were presenting the same evidence and information about some mob family, there would be zero outcry.  But because this is the President, who happens to be Trump, there is a wave of disbelief and incomprehensibility by those very same people.  Cohen himself is now going to serve 3 years in prison, and stated unequivocally that he did bad things for Trump.  That alone should be of concern to Trump's supporters who view it as simply "shenanigans" and not pure corruption.  Cheers!
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Parsad

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Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
« Reply #94 on: December 12, 2018, 02:01:03 PM »
I'm glad you liked the link, cubsfan.   I had meant to address my post to Parsad and the CNN article that he referenced.  But somehow his name disappeared from my post. From what I understand, the professional political class from both sides of the aisle in Washington have extensive connections with other foreign agents.

I have no doubt about that MarkS...but it doesn't negate from what the Trump administration is guilty of, including tax evasion, bribes, perjury and possibly treason.  Cheers!
No man is a failure who has friends!

MarkS

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Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
« Reply #95 on: December 12, 2018, 03:25:49 PM »
Considering that public trust in media is at historic lows, I'm surprised Parsed that you would rely on media reports to convict someone before they've had their day in court.

Parsad

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Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
« Reply #96 on: December 12, 2018, 03:48:54 PM »
Considering that public trust in media is at historic lows, I'm surprised Parsed that you would rely on media reports to convict someone before they've had their day in court.

Broad human psychology generally tends to move opposite to reality...why stock markets are not completely efficient and people underestimated Trump. 

Cohen, Flynn and Manafort are already headed to the hoosegow, how little trust are people putting in the media...exactly the problem with Trump and his supporters.  Cheers!
No man is a failure who has friends!

investor-man

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Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
« Reply #97 on: December 12, 2018, 05:16:39 PM »
Parsad - thank you for your civil post.

Here is why I do not believe this is unusual. Just read Greg's summary again - and I'll add these comments:

 - You have a businessman, at some time, thinking about a project in Moscow - one of these days.
    It's not a big secret that Trump might want to expand his empire internationally.
    People think, they talk, they plan for the future, etc. Then nothing happens. Zilch. Nada.
   
-   At the same time, you have a government, Russia - who ALWAYS meddles and tries to create chaos
    in foreign elections. They target their border countries and other countries deemed strategic.
    That's what Russians do - they want create instability and chaos for their benefit. They are not good guys.
    This is certainly not new.

So how difficult is it for an overzealous investigator, in search of a crime, driven in a highly partisan political
environment to construct a circumstantial case against a sitting president?   Well - it's looking pretty tough
2 years into it..

But you can make these links "he thought about this, and his operatives discussed that, etc, etc"
Therefore they colluded, they conspired, etc, etc.

So now, per your clip, you have 22 people "involved" in collusion, discussions, conspiracy, etc, etc.
Give Mueller another 2 years. There are 100 million Russians living around the world. I'm sure
Mueller will find another 1000 Russians or operatives to add to his contorted collusion case because
"someone" that knew Donald Trump talked (colluded) with them about something.
And the more people you add to your "collusion" list - the more true it becomes because of sheer
numbers - regardless of what actually happened.

This has a familiar ring of the Kavanaugh witch hunt to it - that was a total travesty.

Heh, where there's smoke there's a babbling brook
Ferengi Rule of Acquisition #3 "Never spend more for an acquisition than you have to."

Schwab711

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Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
« Reply #98 on: December 12, 2018, 06:00:29 PM »
Considering that public trust in media is at historic lows, I'm surprised Parsed that you would rely on media reports to convict someone before they've had their day in court.

Without trusting a world of the media and going just off court docs, Trump is implicated in felonies and it's heavily hinted he will be implicated in conspiracy with a foreign government.

I'd also argue in a debate club type way that folks here used the logic of foreign payments (not from foreign governments) + adjacent political decisions, based solely on 'media' reports, to claim that the Clinton's broke laws with Uranium One. Now it's 'have their day in court' even though a POTUS is exempt from facing federal court for anything. It seems like contradictory logic by many here, from a pure debate point of view.

Edit: I suppose to further the point on the court docs. Butina's plea deal hints at the NRA/GOP/Trump Campaign back-channel and potentially illegal funding. I recognize this still doesn't include Trump's name explicitly in the conspiracy portion of the allegations, but realistically, if there was a conspiracy between Trump and the Russian government, that would be announced at the last possible moment because Trump also happens to be the most powerful man in the world with nearly unlimited power. Between the court docs and Sam Patten's cooperation/plea, we are certainly getting closer to court docs describing portions of the conspiracy.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 02:35:14 PM by Schwab711 »

Hawks

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Re: The Fifth, the Fifth, I Plead The Fifth!
« Reply #99 on: December 13, 2018, 06:36:25 PM »
How many individuals within a Presidents administration, campaign, etc went to jail in the 4 administrations of Bush, Clinton, Obama and Trump?  Currently under Trump my count is 2 went to jail and 2 more pending sentencing. Would be an interesting factual comparison.