Corner of Berkshire & Fairfax Message Board

General Category => Politics => Topic started by: Schwab711 on September 20, 2019, 05:48:45 AM

Title: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Schwab711 on September 20, 2019, 05:48:45 AM
More of a placeholder thread until we know more, but it looks like Trump and multiple representatives of Trump's White House approached the Ukrainian President with a proposal where Ukraine restarts the investigation in to Joe Biden, his son, and various associates of them in exchange for foreign aide ($250m related to Crimea - it's been approved, it needs to be released/spent).

Joe Biden's alleged misdealings:
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/05/joe-biden-ukraine-controversy.html - High-level primer
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/01/us/politics/biden-son-ukraine.html - More in-depth issues surrounding Biden

Trump's alleged quid pro quo:
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-impeachment-ukraine-whistleblower-intelligence-giuliani-zelensky-1460327
https://theweek.com/articles/866525/brief-timeline-trump-whistleblower-saga

*Within these links are further links for both ends of the issue



Timeline of Events:
May 10: Rudy Giuliani, Trump's lawyer, calls off a trip to Ukraine one day after saying he would be "meddling in an investigation" and giving Ukraine's new government "reasons why they shouldn't stop it because that information will be very, very helpful to my client." He lobbies Ukraine via back-channels over the summer.

July 25: Trump and Zelensky talk on the phone, and Trump, according to Ukraine's readout of the call, signaled Ukraine should "complete investigation of corruption cases, which inhibited the interaction between Ukraine and the USA."
Reported Aug. 9:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/dan-coats-disrupted-meeting-to-urge-sue-gordon-to-resign-report

Aug. 28: Politico reports that Trump has frozen $250 million in Ukraine security aid and Congress doesn't know why.

Sept. 1: Vice President Mike Pence meets with Zelensky in Poland. He's asked about Biden and the frozen funds the next day.

Sept. 10: Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff (D-Calif.) writes Acting Director of National Intelligence Joseph Maguire to ask about the whistleblower complaint.

Sept. 11: The White House releases military aid to Ukraine with no explanation.

Sept. 19: Ukraine is reported to be a focus of the whistleblower's complaint. Giuliani goes on CNN and says he pressed Ukraine's government to investigate Biden. Then he suggests on Twitter that Trump should push Ukraine to investigate Biden. (https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/462277-giuliani-says-of-course-he-asked-ukraine-to-look-into-biden-seconds)


An Old Review on Bribery/Impeachment, re:Constitution:
https://www.justsecurity.org/41124/impeachment-clause-types-bribery/
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Schwab711 on September 21, 2019, 04:44:38 AM
If no one knows the whistleblowers identity, how could they possibly knows they are partisan? Why do GOP leaders ignore that a Trump appointee agreed it was serious? Why did GOP leaders lie saying the whistleblower could tell Congress?

Why can't we hear the whistleblower and decide the seriousness ourselves?

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/republicans-parrot-trump-in-calling-whistleblower-highly-partisan
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on September 21, 2019, 08:24:18 AM
I can't help but marvel at the irony of this and wonder if it is all just one big joke the puppet masters are playing on us normal folks...The idea that the left is outraged and calling for impeachment over a....politically motivated investigation? Obama's administration launched an investigation into Trump/Russia and now Trump is trying to do the same with Biden/Ukraine...and the reactions to both were sooooooo different it's startling. Honestly the only difference is Obama wasting the time and resources of OUR agencies, whereas at least Trump is getting someone else to do it.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Schwab711 on September 21, 2019, 09:20:48 AM
It sucks that you have become so cynical that you can't see that presidential bribery is a big deal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_in_the_United_States#Constitutional_provisions
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: LC on September 21, 2019, 10:48:55 AM
Quote
Why can't we hear the whistleblower and decide the seriousness ourselves?
This is one of my problems with this current administration - why do they refuse to share information with Congress? Why do they refuse to comply with subpoenas? If "obstruction of justice" has a meaning, this has got to be it.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on September 21, 2019, 12:00:52 PM
They treat worthless partisan pieces of shit like the worthless partisan pieces of shit that they are. I love it, but if the shoe was on the other foot I probably wouldn’t be happy either. What do you think republicans felt like during Obama term 1?
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Schwab711 on September 21, 2019, 01:15:56 PM
Trump appointed the Inspector General that says it is serious. Neither Trump nor the GOP ever complained about the guy before this specific complaint. Weird how they always become partisan/Deep State when they aren't blindly supporting Dear Leader. Trump's DOJ is reportedly already investigating Giuliani on the broader topic of his trips to Ukraine. Trump and his personal lawyer both said if they did what was alleged in the complaint, it would be fine. Giuliani already said he spoke to the Ukrainian president about "corruption" and US aide.

Everyone supporting Trump keeps repeating the phrase 'partisan' without merit. It sounds like a cult, tbh. All that's left to determine is what specifically did Trump say on the call. There are transcripts. That's what he's ultimately trying to block. It's likely he said what was alleged because Trump already said it would be fine if he did say what was alleged.

Quote
I love it, but if the shoe was on the other foot I probably wouldn’t be happy either.

What's the point of complaining about politics if you happily admit to being the problem? You're better than this.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on September 21, 2019, 02:55:32 PM
Schwabster, it’s simple. Neither you nor I have any control over any of this shitshow, so when your team in winning, enjoy it, and when they’re not, realize the game is rigged anyway. Don’t take shit so seriously...
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: LC on September 21, 2019, 05:28:22 PM
There’s the Greg we know and love :)
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Spekulatius on September 21, 2019, 08:37:15 PM
It’s banana republic politics plain and simple. I have the sneaking suspicion that Trump doesn’t even know he breaks laws, he probably had lawyers cleaning up his mess all his live and thinks the laws are for those who don’t have good lawyers. I don’t think he is alone with this attitude either.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cameronfen on September 22, 2019, 03:48:17 PM
I can't help but marvel at the irony of this and wonder if it is all just one big joke the puppet masters are playing on us normal folks...The idea that the left is outraged and calling for impeachment over a....politically motivated investigation? Obama's administration launched an investigation into Trump/Russia and now Trump is trying to do the same with Biden/Ukraine...and the reactions to both were sooooooo different it's startling. Honestly the only difference is Obama wasting the time and resources of OUR agencies, whereas at least Trump is getting someone else to do it.

The difference between Trump/Russia is there was significant suspicion that a crime had occured (which it did likely did in the form of obstruction but not the real point), as among other things Trump went on National TV and asked the Russians to dig up dirt on Clinton.  If there were a case against Biden, the US department of Justice would be investigating, but my guess is this is even a bridge too far for Trump's DOJ, so he has to get a foreign power to investigate.
The Foreign Corrupt Practices Act also covers individuals and not just businesses as its typically used in CoBF. 
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Parsad on September 22, 2019, 06:33:46 PM
They treat worthless partisan pieces of shit like the worthless partisan pieces of shit that they are. I love it, but if the shoe was on the other foot I probably wouldn’t be happy either. What do you think republicans felt like during Obama term 1?

Partisan or not, I'm still waiting to see Trump's taxes!  But we'll never see them like most things from this administration...this won't be any different.  And yes, I'm cynically resigned to that fact, but sitting on the other side of the fence from Trump's supporters.  Cheers!
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Spekulatius on September 23, 2019, 07:45:30 AM
It’s banana republic politics plain and simple. I have the sneaking suspicion that Trump doesn’t even know he breaks laws, he probably had lawyers cleaning up his mess all his live and thinks the laws are for those who don’t have good lawyers. I don’t think he is alone with this attitude either.

By the way, the whole affair looks bad for Biden too, who has a lot of explaining to do what kind of business his son is pursuing  in the Ukraine and why it is totally unrelated to his political ambitions. Could ( or should ) be the end of his run as a candidate for the Dems if not convincingly explained.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Vish_ram on September 23, 2019, 08:57:55 AM
US democracy - it was good while it lasted.

I see lots of similarities between Iranian mullahs and Republicans.

1) fundamentalist view of religion that trumps everything else (feels like R attended christian madrasa)
2) banishing women rights
3) weakening democracy (voter suppression, gerrymandering)
4) clinging to power at any cost
5) fostering hatred towards minorities
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: RuleNumberOne on September 23, 2019, 09:08:56 AM
Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders are the ones fostering hatred towards anyone with money.

Short-term capital gains tax in CA is 54% (40.8% Federal + 13.3% state), on top of which we pay big property taxes to the state and also sales taxes of 9%.

The two demagogues want to write off student and medical debt by raising taxes even more, instead of figuring out how to lower education/healthcare costs.

The two crooks spread hatred against people who have a little bit of money. Both these crooks write books and make millions.


US democracy - it was good while it lasted.

I see lots of similarities between Iranian mullahs and Republicans.

1) fundamentalist view of religion that trumps everything else (feels like R attended christian madrasa)
2) banishing women rights
3) weakening democracy (voter suppression, gerrymandering)
4) clinging to power at any cost
5) fostering hatred towards minorities
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on September 23, 2019, 09:48:10 AM
US democracy - it was good while it lasted.

I see lots of similarities between Iranian mullahs and Republicans.

1) fundamentalist view of religion that trumps everything else (feels like R attended christian madrasa)
2) banishing women rights
3) weakening democracy (voter suppression, gerrymandering)
4) clinging to power at any cost
5) fostering hatred towards minorities

LOL you are seriously comparing women's right in Iran(where they are basically property and can be killed simply for dressing the wrong way or using social media) to America because you feel some of these hoe's should be able to pound whatever protruding objects they feel like and then slaughter the byproduct of that with the moral indifference of say, hitting the backspace button on a computer? Too funny.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Castanza on September 23, 2019, 10:32:44 AM
US democracy - it was good while it lasted.

I see lots of similarities between Iranian mullahs and Republicans.

1) fundamentalist view of religion that trumps everything else (feels like R attended christian madrasa)
2) banishing women rights
3) weakening democracy (voter suppression, gerrymandering)
4) clinging to power at any cost
5) fostering hatred towards minorities

Please list these rights that women don't have.


Here are a few current things in the news...

- Colorado just made it legal for women from the age of 10+ to go topless in public. Is that a victory?
- Young women out earn men. Pay gap?
- Women aren't marrying as much because they see a lack of "economically attractive men"

https://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2010/09/01/young-single-women-outearn-men
https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/colorado-city-removes-topless-ban-in-win-for-free-the-nipple-movement
https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/unmarried-women-lack-economically-attractive-men-study


________________________________________________

To get back on topic. I agree Spek, this investigation could very well be the end of Biden. The question is who becomes the new face of the party? Warren or Sanders? Do either of them have a chance against Trump? Perhaps Warren but I don't see a chance in hell that Bernie wins.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: LC on September 23, 2019, 11:08:23 AM
US democracy - it was good while it lasted.

I see lots of similarities between Iranian mullahs and Republicans.

1) fundamentalist view of religion that trumps everything else (feels like R attended christian madrasa)
2) banishing women rights
3) weakening democracy (voter suppression, gerrymandering)
4) clinging to power at any cost
5) fostering hatred towards minorities

It's a fair comparison. Obviously some items are more extreme in Iran but the fact that some Republicans are going down that same path is of course concerning.

Women are fighting tooth and nail for equality (we're getting close to allowing women to go topless in all 50 states! to use castanza's example) and there is (in general) progress being made on that front.

What concerns me is corruption (on both sides of the aisle). Gerrymandering and voter suppression is, somehow, still a common tactic here in 2019. And Trump's corruption is legendary (at least in how blatant it is) but he is not the only one, as sketchy Democrats and Republics use their elected positions to line their pockets. IMHO more effort needs to be directed here.

You're right on the minority/immigrant item - we see how far this administration is willing to go in order to drum up hate. Some of it is pretty much evil (separating children and parent); some of it is actually hilarious:

https://i.redd.it/1kqolgb177o31.jpg
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Castanza on September 23, 2019, 11:21:00 AM
US democracy - it was good while it lasted.

I see lots of similarities between Iranian mullahs and Republicans.

1) fundamentalist view of religion that trumps everything else (feels like R attended christian madrasa)
2) banishing women rights
3) weakening democracy (voter suppression, gerrymandering)
4) clinging to power at any cost
5) fostering hatred towards minorities

It's a fair comparison. Obviously some items are more extreme in Iran but the fact that some Republicans are going down that same path is of course concerning.

Women are fighting tooth and nail for equality (we're getting close to allowing women to go topless in all 50 states! to use castanza's example) and there is (in general) progress being made on that front.

What concerns me is corruption (on both sides of the aisle). Gerrymandering and voter suppression is, somehow, still a common tactic here in 2019. And Trump's corruption is legendary (at least in how blatant it is) but he is not the only one, as sketchy Democrats and Republics use their elected positions to line their pockets. IMHO more effort needs to be directed here.

You're right on the minority/immigrant item - we see how far this administration is willing to go in order to drum up hate. Some of it is pretty much evil (separating children and parent); some of it is actually hilarious:

https://i.redd.it/1kqolgb177o31.jpg

"It's a fair comparison. Obviously some items are more extreme in Iran but the fact that some Republicans are going down that same path is of course concerning."

You and your cohorts should really stop watching shows like "The Handmaids Tale" and projecting it onto reality. Republicans are heading down that road? Really? Which party is it that has a group of individuals who are outspoken Muslims and seem to have trouble denouncing things like sharia law and female genitalia mutilation.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: LC on September 23, 2019, 11:34:52 AM
Quote
Republicans are heading down that road? Really?
Yes really. I know it's easy to turn a blind eye to the issues that were just listed: gerrymandering, reproductive/women's rights, treatment of minority groups; but these are real failings of the republican party.

I tried to extend the olive branch because its true - democrats engage in poor behavior as well.

But your reply makes it quite obvious: in the republican party, these issues are systemic.

On the contrary, how many current Senators are Muslim? How many Representatives?

And why do you imply there is something wrong about being Muslim?

And on the "trouble denouncing things like sharia law and female genitalia mutilation." point, now you're just wrong. Do I need to post the Omar video again?
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Schwab711 on September 23, 2019, 11:56:54 AM
Start another thread!
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Castanza on September 23, 2019, 12:05:41 PM
Quote
Republicans are heading down that road? Really?
Yes really. I know it's easy to turn a blind eye to the issues that were just listed: gerrymandering, reproductive/women's rights, treatment of minority groups; but these are real failings of the republican party.

I tried to extend the olive branch because its true - democrats engage in poor behavior as well.

But your reply makes it quite obvious: in the republican party, these issues are systemic.

On the contrary, how many current Senators are Muslim? How many Representatives?

And why do you imply there is something wrong about being Muslim?

And on the "trouble denouncing things like sharia law and female genitalia mutilation." point, now you're just wrong. Do I need to post the Omar video again?

1.) I'm not republican

2.) Are you not implying the Muslim religion is also bad if you think its wrong that republicans are headed down the same path?

3.) You're equating the illegal immigrant issue with all minorities. How about you look back at history and see which part supported what and then come to me saying the republicans are the racist party. Democratic party supported slavery, fought women's suffrage, put 10s of thousands of Asians in concentration camps,
supported Jim Crow, supported segregation, supported mass resistance through the Byrd Organization, and who gave birth to the KKK.

4.) You see reproductive rights, I see unborn child's rights. Not the same argument.

5.) Please post the entitled smart ass video of Omar again for all to see. I'm still waiting for her to get caught in her marriage fraud.

_________________________

Last one as we are off topic...apologies
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on September 23, 2019, 12:10:20 PM
The people who support abortion on the "my body my rights" bs argument, should also, if logically sound, support ones freedom to drive drunk...my body, my rights. Booze or semen as the liquid of choice should be irrelevant.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cubsfan on September 23, 2019, 06:38:16 PM
Boy, oh, boy - Biden looks like he is in deep shit when the facts come out on the Ukrainian "pay for play" deal.

Democrats should have kept their mouth shut on Trump and his phone call - cause now the focus is moving to
Biden and his threat to withhold $1B payment to the Ukrainian government, unless they fire the Ukrainian federal
prosecutor that was investigating Hunter Biden and his role in Burisma.

Biden is going to have to fold.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Schwab711 on September 24, 2019, 04:47:33 AM
Boy, oh, boy - Biden looks like he is in deep shit when the facts come out on the Ukrainian "pay for play" deal.

Democrats should have kept their mouth shut on Trump and his phone call - cause now the focus is moving to
Biden and his threat to withhold $1B payment to the Ukrainian government, unless they fire the Ukrainian federal
prosecutor that was investigating Hunter Biden and his role in Burisma.

Biden is going to have to fold.

He said $1b but just about every thing else you wrote is wrong or sensationalized. Investigation was not about Hunter. The concern is that Hunter was paid to consult/manage for an oligarch (Zlochevsky), who many thought should be investigated. The Ukrainian prosecutor truly was extorting subjects of investigations. That doesnt mean Zlochevsky wasn't engaging in money laundering or that Hunter Biden wasn't using his influence, but that wasn't the issue Biden was directly involved in.

Biden isn't getting charged. Trump won't be charged with anything related to this incident either. It's not about any crime. I don't think Biden should have been involved given the appearance of a COI. There's no way to avoid an allegations because of it. In this case, there's not much evidence to support it over 4 years.

You see why admitting to quid pro quo as the chief decision maker is different than being 2 steps removed from potential government abuse while not directly benefiting or being the ultimate decision maker in the situation is different, right?
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cubsfan on September 24, 2019, 05:01:31 AM
I'm not saying Biden will be charged with anything. He won't.

He won't withstand the conflict of interest & influence peddling.

Biden learned well from Clinton - "you scratch my back, and I will scratch yours".

We will see what happens - I say he's finished.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on September 24, 2019, 05:37:14 AM
I don't think they'd need to have gone all the way to Ukraine to find dirt on Hunter Biden....as deplorable as people say Trump is, is this guy not an admitted junky who f*** his dead brothers wife and then cheated on her?
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Cardboard on September 24, 2019, 06:00:41 AM
Cheating on their wives? Roosevelt, Kennedy, Clinton.

What is interesting is that they are some of the better ones if you compare with Truman, Carter and Obama. So if Biden is out we probably need Kamala as she has little problem for that kind of stuff.

Can't believe that their top running candidates would be Bernie and Warren without Biden. Have you seen their confiscation plan or wealth tax? So you would pay a tax on your wealth each year?

I also find ultra interesting that the naive leftist supporters on this board do not understand that once something like that is applied, not only will it hurt their own investments, jobs and family but, since they are savers and essentially wealthy or a small percentage of the population that eventually they will have to pay it too.

Cardboard
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Schwab711 on September 24, 2019, 06:23:28 AM
@cubsfan - Seems reasonable enough.

@gregmal - Yeah, there was a lot more low hanging fruit if Hunter was the target. There could be some strategy to forcing impeachment hearings to start now vs during Congressional primary/election season?

@Cardboard - The wealth tax is unconstitutional. It will be enacted when there's an amendment and no earlier. Most people I've talked to ignore the idea as unrealistic. It seems to be the take her seriously, not literally thing.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Castanza on September 24, 2019, 06:47:14 AM
@cubsfan - Seems reasonable enough.

@gregmal - Yeah, there was a lot more low hanging fruit if Hunter was the target. There could be some strategy to forcing impeachment hearings to start now vs during Congressional primary/election season?

@Cardboard - The wealth tax is unconstitutional. It will be enacted when there's an amendment and no earlier. Most people I've talked to ignore the idea as unrealistic. It seems to be the take her seriously, not literally thing.

Revoking the 2A is also unconstitutional yet here we are. The younger generations have almost zero regard for the constitution. I'd be willing to bet most haven't ever read it or studied it in school. So never say never.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Cardboard on September 24, 2019, 07:53:40 AM
When people propose unconstitutional ideas to get elected it should be enough for most to turn away from them.

Unfortunately, society doesn't work that way and the lure of free money is what drives the majority of the electorate.

These are highly dangerous people and I would say on par with most dictators. Building a wall to control immigration was seen by some as some monumental thing but, it is nothing vs what these are proposing.

With media supporting them, next would be the implementation of a "social credit" system just like they have now in China.

Cardboard
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Schwab711 on September 24, 2019, 10:03:14 AM
Seriously, start a new thread. I don't want to talk about the wealth tax or gun legislation.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Castanza on September 24, 2019, 10:45:10 AM
@cubsfan - Seems reasonable enough.

@gregmal - Yeah, there was a lot more low hanging fruit if Hunter was the target. There could be some strategy to forcing impeachment hearings to start now vs during Congressional primary/election season?

@Cardboard - The wealth tax is unconstitutional. It will be enacted when there's an amendment and no earlier. Most people I've talked to ignore the idea as unrealistic. It seems to be the take her seriously, not literally thing.

You literally just talked about it...
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Schwab711 on September 24, 2019, 11:07:02 AM
Yes, I'm part of the problem too. That's why the off-topic posts are so annoying. Whoever goes off-topic writes something that baits you. You either respond and contribute to the problem or the troll goes unchallenged, right? There's lot of other possibilities but this is already too long of a post and back-and-forth for a simple request, make a new topic. Half this thread is already unrelated opinions. Occasionally going on tangents is normal, but most of this thread has been unrelated. So how can we move forward from here such that this thread can stay on topic? Now that you have my admission that I make mistakes too, can you just start a new thread in the future?
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on September 24, 2019, 11:26:44 AM
Schwab,

What you're missing here is that Trump had no choice but to do what he has done. He promised to drain the swamp. The only way he can combat corruption on this scale is to be even more corrupt than the opposition. He is literally going to need to draw on every dirty trick that he learned from his mentors Richard Nixon and Roy Cohn.

Plus there is no way Trump can be found guilty of anything he is accused of in this case because he has two of the greatest legal theories of all time on his side, namely:
1. The "he started it" defense, and
2. the "what he did was worse" defense.
Trump has consistently and successfully employed both of these strategies since pre-school. The beauty of these defenses is that he doesn't even need to prove them to be true, he just needs to invoke them.

It sucks that you have become so cynical that you can't see that presidential bribery is a big deal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_in_the_United_States#Constitutional_provisions
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Cardboard on September 24, 2019, 12:21:00 PM
Yeah get back to subject Schwab and your desire to impeach Trump. Pelosi will probably announce such at 5 pm ET today.

Since their candidates are so bad they have no choice but, to try to get rid of Trump. They must feel that they have a fighting chance against Pence.

Talk about election interference...

 
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on September 24, 2019, 12:23:59 PM
Yeah get back to subject Schwab and your desire to impeach Trump. Pelosi will probably announce such at 5 pm ET today.

Since their candidates are so bad they have no choice but, to try to get rid of Trump. They must feel that they have a fighting chance against Pence.

Talk about election interference...

Indeed although again, how stupid are they? Trump has not only been begging them to do this because it will rally his supporters, but even if it doesn't, they have ZERO shot at accomplishing anything since the Republicans control the Senate. These people are complete morons lol Just another excuse to waste tons of time and tax payer dollars on something that is certain to accomplish nothing.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: bearprowler6 on September 24, 2019, 01:02:04 PM
Yeah get back to subject Schwab and your desire to impeach Trump. Pelosi will probably announce such at 5 pm ET today.

Since their candidates are so bad they have no choice but, to try to get rid of Trump. They must feel that they have a fighting chance against Pence.

Talk about election interference...

Indeed although again, how stupid are they? Trump has not only been begging them to do this because it will rally his supporters, but even if it doesn't, they have ZERO shot at accomplishing anything since the Republicans control the Senate. These people are complete morons lol Just another excuse to waste tons of time and tax payer dollars on something that is certain to accomplish nothing.

Pelosi has played this very well. The House has a job to do...by waiting she knew the Orange Head would continue to pile up impeachable transgression after impeachable transgression. The House will vote to impeach. The Senate will not do the same (unless of course they find religion) and then the Democrats can state to the voting public...you all know he should be impeached but it was the Republican controlled Senate that stopped it.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Tim Eriksen on September 24, 2019, 01:07:23 PM
Yeah get back to subject Schwab and your desire to impeach Trump. Pelosi will probably announce such at 5 pm ET today.

Since their candidates are so bad they have no choice but, to try to get rid of Trump. They must feel that they have a fighting chance against Pence.

Talk about election interference...

Indeed although again, how stupid are they? Trump has not only been begging them to do this because it will rally his supporters, but even if it doesn't, they have ZERO shot at accomplishing anything since the Republicans control the Senate. These people are complete morons lol Just another excuse to waste tons of time and tax payer dollars on something that is certain to accomplish nothing.

Pelosi has played this very well. The House has a job to do...by waiting she knew the Orange Head would continue to pile up impeachable transgression after impeachable transgression. The House will vote to impeach. The Senate will not do the same (unless of course they find religion) and then the Democrats can state to the voting public...you all know he should be impeached but it was the Republican controlled Senate that stopped it.

Or it completely backfires like it did on Republicans and Bill Clinton.   
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: bearprowler6 on September 24, 2019, 01:19:03 PM
Yeah get back to subject Schwab and your desire to impeach Trump. Pelosi will probably announce such at 5 pm ET today.

Since their candidates are so bad they have no choice but, to try to get rid of Trump. They must feel that they have a fighting chance against Pence.

Talk about election interference...

A backfire is possible but my bet...impeachment plus a recession next year and the Orange Head will be gone!

Indeed although again, how stupid are they? Trump has not only been begging them to do this because it will rally his supporters, but even if it doesn't, they have ZERO shot at accomplishing anything since the Republicans control the Senate. These people are complete morons lol Just another excuse to waste tons of time and tax payer dollars on something that is certain to accomplish nothing.

Pelosi has played this very well. The House has a job to do...by waiting she knew the Orange Head would continue to pile up impeachable transgression after impeachable transgression. The House will vote to impeach. The Senate will not do the same (unless of course they find religion) and then the Democrats can state to the voting public...you all know he should be impeached but it was the Republican controlled Senate that stopped it.

Or it completely backfires like it did on Republicans and Bill Clinton.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Cardboard on September 24, 2019, 01:49:52 PM
"A backfire is possible but my bet...impeachment plus a recession next year and the Orange Head will be gone!"

Quite a wish for your country and then HOW DARE YOU tell me that you care for the poor people wishing a recession on them! HOW DARE YOU!!!

Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: bearprowler6 on September 24, 2019, 02:01:47 PM
"A backfire is possible but my bet...impeachment plus a recession next year and the Orange Head will be gone!"

Quite a wish for your country and then HOW DARE YOU tell me that you care for the poor people wishing a recession on them! HOW DARE YOU!!!

How dare I? It was actually quite easy? Besides----whether I wish for a recession or not will have little impact on whether one occurs or not. My bet (not a wish but a an educated assessment of the facts)...based on what I read is that a recession is likely next year. I have positioned my portfolio accordingly. I suggest you and your band of merry Orange Head supporters do the same.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on September 24, 2019, 02:59:27 PM
Why dont you take it one step further and bet on his impeachment and a lefty victory next November. Maybe buy some Tesla, Clean Energy Fuels, Beyond Meat, and maybe even a speculative TerraVia positon. If you're really daring you can short XLF, SPY, and XOM to while you're at it!
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Cardboard on September 24, 2019, 02:59:48 PM
At least orange is how he is or choose to be but, you have your own black face painted, fake, favorite leader that I am certain you will proudly support and vote for on October 21.

Regarding investments, I don't try to predict recessions 1 year out or the like and then construct a portfolio accordingly. Bottom up is how I do it and picking up $20 on the ground that shouldn't be there.

Now let's get back to topic as this will annoy Schwab.

Pelosi has launched an impeachment inquiry. Wow! This will please the frustrated squad bunch, sore losers Democrats of 2016 and all the socialists, communists and swamp members.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Spekulatius on September 24, 2019, 04:37:05 PM
This is going to be fun: Politporn, entertainment and volatility in the stock market. Buckle up and enjoy the ride.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: LC on September 24, 2019, 05:07:16 PM
This is going to be fun: Politporn, entertainment and volatility in the stock market. Buckle up and enjoy the ride.

I just can't wait for the next episode of this reality TV show. Thankfully the producers replaced D&D as lead writers after their Game of Thrones screw up, so at least we have a shot at a good ending.  ;D ;D
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: meiroy on September 24, 2019, 06:29:21 PM
This is going to be fun: Politporn, entertainment and volatility in the stock market. Buckle up and enjoy the ride.

I just can't wait for the next episode of this reality TV show. Thankfully the producers replaced D&D as lead writers after their Game of Thrones screw up, so at least we have a shot at a good ending.  ;D ;D

Ok LC. Now you've done it.

The ending was AWSOME.  People were expecting this Disney happy ending with the pretty princess hugging and kissing everyone and living happily ever after with her prince. Well, guess what, it's game of fucking thrones. So, they went with the version where the benevolent "rescuer of the people" decides they know better than everyone else and then continues with killing everybody.  Plenty of examples of that from history.  Good on them. 

Also, have you not seen this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHn0zRcjP3k

Q.E.D.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: meiroy on September 24, 2019, 06:49:13 PM


Trump's UN speech was quite impressive. Surely he didn't even write one word of it, but still...
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Cardboard on September 24, 2019, 07:43:30 PM
Hunter Biden, a clean man like pop:

https://youtu.be/KCF9My1vBP4

So what is it Schwab? The President (Obama), bribery, Ukraine and the wannabe President?



Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: LC on September 24, 2019, 09:20:01 PM
Ok LC. Now you've done it.

The ending was AWSOME.  People were expecting this Disney happy ending with the pretty princess hugging and kissing everyone and living happily ever after with her prince. Well, guess what, it's game of fucking thrones. So, they went with the version where the benevolent "rescuer of the people" decides they know better than everyone else and then continues with killing everybody.  Plenty of examples of that from history.  Good on them. 

Also, have you not seen this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHn0zRcjP3k

Q.E.D.
So adding metallica to anything is obviously a cheap shot. What can't be improved with a little enter sandman?

My problem was the lack of subtlety in the latter season-and-a-half. I.e. anything D&D had to generate with their own shared handful of gray matter. The complete re-writing of established characters with no justification, giant gaps in terms of continuity, meandering plot devices that ultimately served no purpose, not to mention full scenes of pure cringe (remember the "democracy" meeting)...it was so obvious when they ran out of well-written source material and were seemingly "winging it".

Daenerys could've actually been a great villain but they botched that character arc. They could've done better watching some old WWE plotlines to see how to properly turn heel :D The high sparrow was a much better villain because there was some complexity to it, same with Cersei, who also had multiple seasons to properly develop subtlety to her character (she's also a much better actress than Emilia clarke). Dany was all songbirds and tea cakes one day, and hellfire the next. Lazy writing.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on September 24, 2019, 10:38:28 PM
This is going to be fun: Politporn, entertainment and volatility in the stock market. Buckle up and enjoy the ride.

At the least I think we can say, long/short should be a winning strategy.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Schwab711 on September 25, 2019, 08:16:23 AM
https://twitter.com/ddiamond/status/1176862428937752582

This is pointing out that the summary transcript of the call has incomplete quotes at each of the points Trump makes his request to Ukraine. Just days before, Trump halted payment to Ukraine without alerting Congress.

The "what he did was worse" defense is looking like his best hope from here! The funny thing is, Biden was not the favorite to be the nominee anyway (though he still was in late-July).
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on September 25, 2019, 08:20:51 AM
https://twitter.com/ddiamond/status/1176862428937752582

This is pointing out that the summary transcript of the call has incomplete quotes at each of the points Trump makes his request to Ukraine. Just days before, Trump halted payment to Ukraine without alerting Congress.

The "what he did was worse" defense is looking like his best hope from here! The funny thing is, Biden was not the favorite to be the nominee anyway (though he still was in late-July).

Isn't this becoming an all too familiar trend?

There s a smoking gun! Then there isn't but that's because of "xyz". Then xyz doesn't reveal a smoking gun, but thats because of abc. And abc doesnt have one either but if you look here THATS really where something could be going on.... It literally never ends does it?
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Schwab711 on September 25, 2019, 08:44:01 AM
Trump has already publicly admitted to tying a foreign aid payment to a request (the transcript says "favor"). His lawyer admitted to the intention behind the action. We are only waiting to learn what triggered the whistleblower complaint and what is the extent of the actions. The alleged action occurred, that is without debate.

I guess Trump himself hasn't signaled what his intent was. Intent is important. That's the difference between bribery and normal actions taken by a president. That's part of why the summary transcript (released today), the full transcript (yet to be released, if it exists), any possible recordings, and the whistleblower complaint are needed. All of those plus witness testimony would be compared to timelines of events. Things like "when was the payment halted and why?" will need to be answered.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Spekulatius on September 25, 2019, 10:43:25 AM
I think this will be like WeWork, if there is Public outrage over transgressions, the impeachment inquiry will progress, if not it will fizzle out. The thing is basically like trying to do a Watergate, minus the break in, but with a foreign entity ( Ukraine) involved.
Also, another thought - there ought to be some Republicans want to run for Prez, but can’t with Trump in place, but if he is impeached, it’s another story.

What a time to be alive :-).
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cubsfan on September 25, 2019, 08:53:24 PM
Another total nothing-burger. Makes Pelosi look like an idiot and the rest of the Dems like a vindictive bunch.

But it should sink Biden now that he has some explaining to do....

You guys are a bunch of smart investors, some who understand the energy sector.

Would any of you get millions from the Ukraine or $1.5B from China UNLESS your dad happened to be the current Vice President??

What's the value add to the Ukraine or China from Hunter Biden without his father's position??

Interesting that no one in the press seems to be asking for interviews with Hunter Biden.

Talk about "pay to play" and a complicit mainstream media. The hypocrisy is stunning.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on September 25, 2019, 10:47:54 PM
Well, I think Cubsfan touched on it, but can anyone answer the following question? What is unqualified drug addict, Hunter Biden doing on the board of a Ukrainian nat gas company? Did they need advice on how to smoke crack?
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: RuleNumberOne on September 25, 2019, 11:37:47 PM
He was collecting $50,000 per month as a board member. The biggest American companies pay their board members half of that.

Over his 5 year tenure, that works out to $3 million. From just one client. He has been a lobbyist since 2001, how many more clients does he have right now?

In his spare time, he practiced incest with his sister-in-law.


Well, I think Cubsfan touched on it, but can anyone answer the following question? What is unqualified drug addict, Hunter Biden doing on the board of a Ukrainian nat gas company? Did they need advice on how to smoke crack?
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Parsad on September 26, 2019, 12:16:48 AM
He was collecting $50,000 per month as a board member. The biggest American companies pay their board members half of that.

Over his 5 year tenure, that works out to $3 million. From just one client. He has been a lobbyist since 2001, how many more clients does he have right now?

In his spare time, he practiced incest with his sister-in-law.


Well, I think Cubsfan touched on it, but can anyone answer the following question? What is unqualified drug addict, Hunter Biden doing on the board of a Ukrainian nat gas company? Did they need advice on how to smoke crack?

RuleNumberOne, I'm not sure you grasp what "incest" is. 

Trump creepily talking about how his daughter is so hot, that he would have dated her if she wasn't his daughter, is far closer to incest than what Hunter Biden and his sister-in-law did. 

That being said, he's a douche bag for having an affair with her and his sister-in-law is no prize either!  Cheers!
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Schwab711 on September 26, 2019, 06:13:37 AM

Would any of you get millions from the Ukraine or $1.5B from China UNLESS your dad happened to be the current Vice President??

What's the value add to the Ukraine or China from Hunter Biden without his father's position??

Interesting that no one in the press seems to be asking for interviews with Hunter Biden.


Weird how Trump finally got his Trump Tower Moscow deal (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/azeenghorayshi/here-are-the-trump-moscow-plans) after he was in the lead for the Republican nomination and told a then-unknown-to-be Russian spy at a conference that he was going against the broad GOP platform to reduce Russian sanctions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGj3btgPZ3w

Certainly Ivanka is getting all those Chinese trademarks, some she doesn't actively sell yet, because it's super easy for Americans to obtain those. Kushner and Ivanka are certainly the most qualified people to advise the White House.

Either way, I'm happy you are finally on board with corruption being bad. If only you could see the acts by people who say things you like, too. I'm not sure what you expect to happen to the Biden's. There's nothing known to be illegal. Ukraine wasn't investigating Hunter, they were investigating the company he worked for and the CEO of it. Is it all above board? Certainly no. Obviously no one likes that lineage brings about these perks but what is the remedy?

In the end, Biden was already losing support among D's because of his mental accuity and these types of conflicts of interest. He's probably not even the front runner before we get updated polls from this scandal.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Schwab711 on September 26, 2019, 06:14:13 AM
Come to find out, the official whistleblower complaint cites Trump using the phrase "play ball" in reference to Ukraine.

Full complaint:
https://intelligence.house.gov/uploadedfiles/20190812_-_whistleblower_complaint_unclass.pdf


Folks are going to say that the whistleblower didn't witness the acts or that they are biased. The IG verified the complaint, agreed that it is serious, and has interviewed witnesses to the events. It's not much different from a low level accountant whistleblowing on financial fraud.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Vish_ram on September 26, 2019, 08:13:56 AM
How did the folks who hug the constitution became supporters of traitors?

I guess when it comes to Supreme court, you can throw everything else under the bus. The rule of law only applies to others.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Cardboard on September 26, 2019, 08:53:37 AM
Traitors?

Oh! You mean Obama and Hillary Clinton selling that large U.S. producer of uranium to Russia?

Or you mean them abandoning U.S. ambassador and soldiers to die in Benghazi?
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Castanza on September 26, 2019, 10:14:56 AM
How did the folks who hug the constitution became supporters of traitors?

I guess when it comes to Supreme court, you can throw everything else under the bus. The rule of law only applies to others.

Current policies of democratic candidates violate the following amendments.

2A, 4A, 5A 6A - Red Flag laws, gun control laws

10A - Federally mandated universal healthcare (states have the power to do so but as in the case of Cal they tried and backed out because it would have cost them 400b a year).

16A - Tax on the wealthy is arguably a direct tax (some would argue otherwise as seen with income tax). This could also arguably be applied to universal healthcare.



Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cubsfan on September 26, 2019, 10:21:30 AM
Yep, the radical LEFT has overtaken the Democratic Party for good.
Scum like Adam Schiff, Nadler, AOC, etc - they have won the hearts and minds of the Democrats.

Victory and Political power at all cost - who cares about the needs of the country or the will of the American voters.

Absolutely disgraceful.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Parsad on September 26, 2019, 10:24:40 AM
Come to find out, the official whistleblower complaint cites Trump using the phrase "play ball" in reference to Ukraine.

Full complaint:
https://intelligence.house.gov/uploadedfiles/20190812_-_whistleblower_complaint_unclass.pdf


Folks are going to say that the whistleblower didn't witness the acts or that they are biased. The IG verified the complaint, agreed that it is serious, and has interviewed witnesses to the events. It's not much different from a low level accountant whistleblowing on financial fraud.

Reading the call paper (can't call it a transcript, because it wasn't) yesterday, I thought Trump could be investigated but probably not impeached.  Reading the whistleblower report including all of the meetings that took place, I have to change my mind. 

Wow!  I think this is far more serious and with far better evidence than the collusion complaint/investigation had.  I would not be surprised to not only see Trump get in trouble, but Guiliani is doing his best to join Manafort and Cohen.  They may take down Biden on this too...which I have no problem with if he did what is purported!  Cheers!
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Parsad on September 26, 2019, 10:29:44 AM
Yep, the radical LEFT has overtaken the Democratic Party for good.
Scum like Adam Schiff, Nadler, AOC, etc - they have won the hearts and minds of the Democrats.

Victory and Political power at all cost - who cares about the needs of the country or the will of the American voters.

Absolutely disgraceful.

Cubsfan you can blame the radical left all you want, but deep down you know that if what the whistleblower purports happened, that's more blatant and nefarious than Watergate was.  Whether Trump was just unaware of what he was saying on the call, the subsequent meetings and pressure, no longer support just a friendly call. 

It fully supports the argument that the President knew and had proof on Biden, wanted to get his hands on that information, as well as anything on Hillary, and was leveraging withholding support to get that dirt.  It's not only unethical, it's criminal like a thug or mobster calling in a favour. 

And I agree with the right, if Biden did do something, get the proof and throw his ass in prison too!  Cheers!
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cubsfan on September 26, 2019, 10:39:14 AM
Parsad - we have different views on this - I see a nothing burger. I see a total joke - another attempt to take down the President.

So many attempts by the Left - no dice - maybe we have a shot this time if we smear him enough. Let's keep the focus off our insane
political agenda - and get rid of this guy. It's so transparent.

That is what I see - plain as day to me.

Biden doesn't need to go to prison - Americans just need to know he learned well from the Crooked Clintons on how
"Pay to Play" works - he got his money, in exchange for influence.  That's enough to outrage the public.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Parsad on September 26, 2019, 10:53:40 AM
Parsad - we have different views on this - I see a nothing burger. I see a total joke - another attempt to take down the President.

So many attempts by the Left - no dice - maybe we have a shot this time if we smear him enough. Let's keep the focus off our insane
political agenda - and get rid of this guy. It's so transparent.

That is what I see - plain as day to me.

Biden doesn't need to go to prison - Americans just need to know he learned well from the Crooked Clintons on how
"Pay to Play" works - he got his money, in exchange for influence.  That's enough to outrage the public.

Again, Biden, the Clintons, etc...whoever you want to blame...is not responsible for Trump's own actions.  As value investors, we talk about and admire investors who are intellectually honest when making decisions...Ericopoly comes to mind!  I think any intellectually honest reader can see that no one else influenced Trump's behavior in the whistleblower report other than Trump and his own advisors. 

The left may be loving this...but unlike looking for collusion, this one seems pretty black and white.  He made the call, the call paper indicates all of the things in the whistleblower report were reported accurately, and subsequent meetings consummated what Trump planned on the call.  You have intent, instigation, planning and consummation.  While Trump could be impeached, I think the Justice department should consider treason charges against Guiliani.  Cheers!
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on September 26, 2019, 11:46:13 AM
I think with this, just like pretty much everything else Trump related... people will see what they want to see.

Bottom line, the left has cried wolf so many times that maybe now if there is something real, it will cost them. I know plenty of democrats who are down right tired of these people thinking impeachment is the answer TO EVERYTHING now. Kavanaugh did not have one credible smear on his record, and look at what they've shamelessly done to him? Still no apology from any of them. Trump has had a field day, playing the game and being bigger and badder and bolder than all the crooks that came before him. NOW they want to deal with it!?!? They've had the House and literally accomplished NOTHING because all they want to do is bother Trump. As Ive said, these fools are missing the fact that the only thing that binds them with their base is a common hatred of Trump. People do not like them and don't approve of the job they are doing.

Everything is skewed and its hard to find anything credible surrounding Trump. On one end, the guy is a blatant lier and always spins everything in his favor. On the other end, you look at MSM, like CNN, fabricating narratives and then blasting it everywhere hoping to fool people into thinking their stories are the truth. Their homepage literally dedicates 22/25 top stories to bashing Trump. Who knows whats real anymore as all the people and outlets are just dishonest liars.

Trump isn't going anywhere. Which all in all is good given the alternatives. It baffles me, completely, to see people(particularly investors) actually start attempting to rationalize Elizabeth Warren lol. Im as big a contrarian as anyone, but to think maybe it won't be that bad is crazy. Maybe it doesn't fuck up the economy. But it will 100% impair the types of companies people here seem to like to buy. It might not even hit the bottom line, but you damn well better bet that at the least, big time multiple contraction will occur if that bitch gets anywhere near the WH.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on September 26, 2019, 11:52:23 AM
I would go even further than Parsad. After reading the complaint, reading the phone call memorandum, and watching today's testimony, I think the President, Vice President, AG Barr, Giulliani and others are likely to go down over this. Not only is it a near certainty that Trump will be impeached by the House, I think it is likely that enough Republican Senators will defect and vote to convict, if he is impeached. If it went that far, it would be the first time in history that the Senate voted to convict.

What the Bidens did certainly smells bad. It may also be that it was reprehensible. It seems unlikely that it was criminal and even more unlikely that anything would be done about it at this late date.

If the Republicans turn on Trump, it will happen quickly and few including Trump will see it coming. They are going to hide their intentions until the last moment, but to me that looks more likely all the time. I just hope they will do it quickly, in time to put forward a viable alternate to Trump.

I am sure that Bill Weld and Mitt Romney have been positioning themselves for this moment as well as several Republicans who "retired" like Jeff Flake. Leaving office for some of these retirees may have been a gamble that they would have the option to return at a higher level without the stench of Trump on them.

If they are going to do it, I hope the Republicans throw Trump under the bus quickly, because I sure prefer the sound of President Romney the idea of almost anyone the Dems are putting forward. Almost no mainstream economist would support or endorse tarriffs, and no mainstream economist would support the crazy stuff that the Dems are putting forward like national rent controls. The amount of corruption generated by rent control in NYC alone should be a lesson in why that is a bad idea. None of these people seem to have a grasp of mainstream economic theory or history.

Strongmen frequently create a boogeyman and then present themselves as the only one who can save the populace from the boogeyman. In Trump's case he has defined himself against the radical left. He and his henchmen have sought to trigger and empower the radical left because they would both grow stronger as a result. That has pushed Democratic candidates toward some real leftwing nutbag platforms. To de-escalate all this non-sense, I think our greatest hope is probably a moderate Republican. Right now the two who have signaled interest who seem to have the best chance are two former Massachusetts governors, but who knows what the future holds.

Much of what is in the whistleblower complaint is easily verified by the president's own words, contemporaneous news reporting, the phone call memorandum, and statements from the Ukranian government. It is hard to see this ending well for anyone who was involved.

My impression is that the defense of Trump by Republican committee members in today's hearing was very tepid compared to previous times such as the Mueller hearings. I think that may be the most ominous sign of all. When he no longer scares Republicans in the Senate and House in to supporting him no matter what he does, it's all over for him.

Parsad - we have different views on this - I see a nothing burger. I see a total joke - another attempt to take down the President.

So many attempts by the Left - no dice - maybe we have a shot this time if we smear him enough. Let's keep the focus off our insane
political agenda - and get rid of this guy. It's so transparent.

That is what I see - plain as day to me.

Biden doesn't need to go to prison - Americans just need to know he learned well from the Crooked Clintons on how
"Pay to Play" works - he got his money, in exchange for influence.  That's enough to outrage the public.

Again, Biden, the Clintons, etc...whoever you want to blame...is not responsible for Trump's own actions.  As value investors, we talk about and admire investors who are intellectually honest when making decisions...Ericopoly comes to mind!  I think any intellectually honest reader can see that no one else influenced Trump's behavior in the whistleblower report other than Trump and his own advisors. 

The left may be loving this...but unlike looking for collusion, this one seems pretty black and white.  He made the call, the call paper indicates all of the things in the whistleblower report were reported accurately, and subsequent meetings consummated what Trump planned on the call.  You have intent, instigation, planning and consummation.  While Trump could be impeached, I think the Justice department should consider treason charges against Guiliani.  Cheers!
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on September 26, 2019, 11:56:55 AM
Speaking of the Kavanaugh hearings, the outrage among Republican committee members today was extremely muted compared to the Kavanaugh hearings. It seemed like they were phoning it in today, and none of them even attempted to question the validity or seriousness of the accusations in a substantial way. The attacks were more procedural, complaining as though they Democrats had insulted the witness, or simply saying "here we go again". That's very different from their behavior in previous conflicts similar to today's.

I think with this, just like pretty much everything else Trump related... people will see what they want to see.

Bottom line, the left has cried wolf so many times that maybe now if there is something real, it will cost them. I know plenty of democrats who are down right tired of these people thinking impeachment is the answer TO EVERYTHING now. Kavanaugh did not have one credible smear on his record, and look at what they've shamelessly done to him? Still no apology from any of them. Trump has had a field day, playing the game and being bigger and badder and bolder than all the crooks that came before him. NOW they want to deal with it!?!? They've had the House and literally accomplished NOTHING because all they want to do is bother Trump. As Ive said, these fools are missing the fact that the only thing that binds them with their base is a common hatred of Trump. People do not like them and don't approve of the job they are doing.

Everything is skewed and its hard to find anything credible surrounding Trump. On one end, the guy is a blatant lier and always spins everything in his favor. On the other end, you look at MSM, like CNN, fabricating narratives and then blasting it everywhere hoping to fool people into thinking their stories are the truth. Their homepage literally dedicates 22/25 top stories to bashing Trump. Who knows whats real anymore as all the people and outlets are just dishonest liars.

Trump isn't going anywhere. Which all in all is good given the alternatives. It baffles me, completely, to see people(particularly investors) actually start attempting to rationalize Elizabeth Warren lol. Im as big a contrarian as anyone, but to think maybe it won't be that bad is crazy. Maybe it doesn't fuck up the economy. But it will 100% impair the types of companies people here seem to like to buy. It might not even hit the bottom line, but you damn well better bet that at the least, big time multiple contraction will occur if that bitch gets anywhere near the WH.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Castanza on September 26, 2019, 12:05:39 PM
Either way if Trump get's impeached or not I think Republicans will win the 2020 election. The democrats have a bunch of copy and paste candidates that have far too many extreme stances for the average American. Not to mention if Trump is impeached this will fire up his former base to vote for his replacement at all costs. 
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on September 26, 2019, 12:34:41 PM
I mean if the truth lies in what the transcript read, then this is nonsense. If it lies with what the whistleblower alleged, its more serious but still not likely to get him impeached. Supposedly the complainer is CIA...start the deep state, anti Trump stuff....

It all depends on how its viewed, and the split will be partisan. We've already heard the "treason", "compromising national security", etc from the clowns. I think they've used up their allotment of buzz words already so now they ring hollow.

On the other end, are people running for president exempt from being investigated? Obviously not since Obama's administration used it as an excuse to spy on the Trump campaign. Is it illegal to ask people for things? Especially if it did involve something corrupt? Why shouldn't one be allowed to withhold things, especially if they have the upper hand, in exchange for something? You can throw around words like quid pro quo, bribe, etc, but again, the other side can just say that's called negotiating, strong arming, etc.

I was and still kind of am a fan of what Trump is and has done regarding taking action and living up to what he promised on the campaign trail. And while I found it entertaining, and was amused by how much he plays these fools like fiddles and just constantly trolls them... I'm also just kind of worn out by the constant bullshit with him....
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: LC on September 26, 2019, 01:06:12 PM
Either way if Trump get's impeached or not I think Republicans will win the 2020 election. The democrats have a bunch of copy and paste candidates that have far too many extreme stances for the average American. Not to mention if Trump is impeached this will fire up his former base to vote for his replacement at all costs.

The bolded part is the really sad part. Trump is a pretty easy candidate to defeat in a general election if you can muster up a halfway normal candidate.

If Trump get's impeached I like the R's chances even more as they can replace Trump with a better candidate (again, not a difficult thing to do unless you're the D's).

Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Cardboard on September 26, 2019, 01:12:19 PM
"It baffles me, completely, to see people(particularly investors) actually start attempting to rationalize Elizabeth Warren lol."

Anybody with any decent savings, understanding of the economy, love for their family, knows that this repugnant human being would be a disaster for America.

Some of them here supporting her or not opposed own things like BAC, JPM and WFC... HELLOOOOO!!!!!

I would go further, anyone trying to be something in life would never support any of the leftist agenda.

On this website, there seems to be a lot of admiration for Buffett which may skew some mindset on left vs right. However, let's face it, this guy along with Soros are effectively on their death bed with billions in the bank.

These guys had zero heart all throughout their careers basically pillaging other investors and even countries. Now that they are about to die, they want none of us to succeed, pay a ton in taxes (which they never paid!) and to be charitable. Again... HELLOOOOO!!!!!!

Cardboard
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: LC on September 26, 2019, 01:15:32 PM
It applies only to households with a net worth of $50 million or more—roughly the wealthiest 75,000 households, or the top 0.1%. Households would pay an annual 2% tax on every dollar of net worth above $50 million and a 3% tax on every dollar of net worth above $1 billion.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on September 26, 2019, 01:24:32 PM
First they came for the billionaires, and I did not speak out—

     Because I was not a billionaire.

. . .
 
It applies only to households with a net worth of $50 million or more—roughly the wealthiest 75,000 households, or the top 0.1%. Households would pay an annual 2% tax on every dollar of net worth above $50 million and a 3% tax on every dollar of net worth above $1 billion.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Spekulatius on September 26, 2019, 01:24:46 PM
So I am behind a few seasons with House of Cards - does it make sense to watch it anymore, since I can pretty much watch the real thing in Fox news?

Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Schwab711 on September 26, 2019, 01:35:11 PM
"It baffles me, completely, to see people(particularly investors) actually start attempting to rationalize Elizabeth Warren lol."

Anybody with any decent savings, understanding of the economy, love for their family, knows that this repugnant human being would be a disaster for America.

Some of them here supporting her or not opposed own things like BAC, JPM and WFC... HELLOOOOO!!!!!

I would go further, anyone trying to be something in life would never support any of the leftist agenda.

On this website, there seems to be a lot of admiration for Buffett which may skew some mindset on left vs right. However, let's face it, this guy along with Soros are effectively on their death bed with billions in the bank.

These guys had zero heart all throughout their careers basically pillaging other investors and even countries. Now that they are about to die, they want none of us to succeed, pay a ton in taxes (which they never paid!) and to be charitable. Again... HELLOOOOO!!!!!!

Cardboard

This is her actual platform:
https://elizabethwarren.com/plans

A few people have said she's the D version of Trump and it's basically true. I don't really want to get in a habit of saying my politics but I wish other candidates were ahead in the polls. Despite whatever I may think, she's basically the anti-corruption candidate more than anything else. I think there's a widespread image that Warren = Bernie and it's quite inaccurate. I think she actively allows that image to be formed in voter's minds. Bernie openly wants socialism. She openly does not support that path at all. She's Trumpian in the image versus actual platform divergence she allows.

In 1999 or 2000, Trump stated he supported a wealth tax.

Here's an article from Berkeley discussing the unconstitutionality of a wealth tax. It's honestly not going to happen, like the original Muslim Ban.
https://gspp.berkeley.edu/news/news-center/the-constitutionality-of-a-net-worth-tax


The only part of the plan likely to be introduced is the increased IRS enforcement:
https://elizabethwarren.com/plans/ultra-millionaire-tax

I'm not writing this to make excuses for her. I'm pointing out every candidate with support runs on illegal ideas lately. I'm writing this because it is an investment forum and I try to consider what rules will or may be passed and what effects they may have all the time. I did it with taxes in 2016. I think health insurers are the 2020 version of high tax companies and banks. They will do well with a R win and do better than expected with a D win. The market is wrong on them, imo.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: LC on September 26, 2019, 02:06:10 PM
First they came for the billionaires, and I did not speak out—

     Because I was not a billionaire.

. . .
 

I was copying from her website to accurately frame the scope of the proposal.

Personally I would rather increase marginal tax rates and reduce "tax avoidance" rather than tax capital.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on September 26, 2019, 03:10:40 PM
Another interesting perspective.

https://nypost.com/2019/09/26/former-cia-official-on-whistleblower-how-could-this-be-an-intelligence-matter/
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on September 26, 2019, 04:19:04 PM
The author served for six whole months in the Trump administration. Not a record, but I suppose that is an accomplishment of sorts.

Another interesting perspective.

https://nypost.com/2019/09/26/former-cia-official-on-whistleblower-how-could-this-be-an-intelligence-matter/
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cubsfan on September 26, 2019, 04:55:23 PM
Probably good to see the war with the LEFT and the Republicans come to a head. It's inevitable. No one has ever fought them
like Trump. Romney wouldn't. Gingrich didn't. McCain caved. The Left is used to mainstream Republicans running away from them
in terror - "please don't call me a racist or bigot!". Doesn't work with Trump - and they HATE him for it.

The Left and Democrats are nothing but cry babies and obstructionist.  Time for the American people to weigh in and put the wood to the
Democrats in the 2020 election. The best thing for this party is to lose in a landslide.

Make your choice - ridiculous progressive/socialist agenda put forth by liars & frauds, or a Trump agenda. Time for this to come to a head. Go ahead and impeach.

Have the lying Democratic Party roll the dice and let's see what happens. I can't wait to see how Americans react at the ballot box.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Parsad on September 26, 2019, 06:20:36 PM
I would go even further than Parsad. After reading the complaint, reading the phone call memorandum, and watching today's testimony, I think the President, Vice President, AG Barr, Giulliani and others are likely to go down over this. Not only is it a near certainty that Trump will be impeached by the House, I think it is likely that enough Republican Senators will defect and vote to convict, if he is impeached. If it went that far, it would be the first time in history that the Senate voted to convict.

What the Bidens did certainly smells bad. It may also be that it was reprehensible. It seems unlikely that it was criminal and even more unlikely that anything would be done about it at this late date.

If the Republicans turn on Trump, it will happen quickly and few including Trump will see it coming. They are going to hide their intentions until the last moment, but to me that looks more likely all the time. I just hope they will do it quickly, in time to put forward a viable alternate to Trump.

I am sure that Bill Weld and Mitt Romney have been positioning themselves for this moment as well as several Republicans who "retired" like Jeff Flake. Leaving office for some of these retirees may have been a gamble that they would have the option to return at a higher level without the stench of Trump on them.

If they are going to do it, I hope the Republicans throw Trump under the bus quickly, because I sure prefer the sound of President Romney the idea of almost anyone the Dems are putting forward. Almost no mainstream economist would support or endorse tarriffs, and no mainstream economist would support the crazy stuff that the Dems are putting forward like national rent controls. The amount of corruption generated by rent control in NYC alone should be a lesson in why that is a bad idea. None of these people seem to have a grasp of mainstream economic theory or history.

Strongmen frequently create a boogeyman and then present themselves as the only one who can save the populace from the boogeyman. In Trump's case he has defined himself against the radical left. He and his henchmen have sought to trigger and empower the radical left because they would both grow stronger as a result. That has pushed Democratic candidates toward some real leftwing nutbag platforms. To de-escalate all this non-sense, I think our greatest hope is probably a moderate Republican. Right now the two who have signaled interest who seem to have the best chance are two former Massachusetts governors, but who knows what the future holds.

Much of what is in the whistleblower complaint is easily verified by the president's own words, contemporaneous news reporting, the phone call memorandum, and statements from the Ukranian government. It is hard to see this ending well for anyone who was involved.

My impression is that the defense of Trump by Republican committee members in today's hearing was very tepid compared to previous times such as the Mueller hearings. I think that may be the most ominous sign of all. When he no longer scares Republicans in the Senate and House in to supporting him no matter what he does, it's all over for him.

Parsad - we have different views on this - I see a nothing burger. I see a total joke - another attempt to take down the President.

So many attempts by the Left - no dice - maybe we have a shot this time if we smear him enough. Let's keep the focus off our insane
political agenda - and get rid of this guy. It's so transparent.

That is what I see - plain as day to me.

Biden doesn't need to go to prison - Americans just need to know he learned well from the Crooked Clintons on how
"Pay to Play" works - he got his money, in exchange for influence.  That's enough to outrage the public.

Again, Biden, the Clintons, etc...whoever you want to blame...is not responsible for Trump's own actions.  As value investors, we talk about and admire investors who are intellectually honest when making decisions...Ericopoly comes to mind!  I think any intellectually honest reader can see that no one else influenced Trump's behavior in the whistleblower report other than Trump and his own advisors. 

The left may be loving this...but unlike looking for collusion, this one seems pretty black and white.  He made the call, the call paper indicates all of the things in the whistleblower report were reported accurately, and subsequent meetings consummated what Trump planned on the call.  You have intent, instigation, planning and consummation.  While Trump could be impeached, I think the Justice department should consider treason charges against Guiliani.  Cheers!

I would be very happy with a President Romney as well!  And I would prefer that to any of the Democrats other than Buttigeig possibly.  Cheers!
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Parsad on September 26, 2019, 06:25:40 PM
Another interesting perspective.

https://nypost.com/2019/09/26/former-cia-official-on-whistleblower-how-could-this-be-an-intelligence-matter/

Of course it's an intelligence matter.  If the President is exposing himself to possible exploitation by doing deals with foreign counterparts that compromise elections, then that undermines U.S. security, intelligence and interests. 

Like the damn pee-pee tape..."I love Putin, he's a great leader, we have a great relationship!"  Cheers!
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Spekulatius on September 26, 2019, 06:35:23 PM
Either way if Trump get's impeached or not I think Republicans will win the 2020 election. The democrats have a bunch of copy and paste candidates that have far too many extreme stances for the average American. Not to mention if Trump is impeached this will fire up his former base to vote for his replacement at all costs.

This would actually be a very positive development, if post an impeachment the Republicans can muster a candidate that is untainted by trumpism. And I would think that such a candidate would have a decent chance of winning too, especially if the Democratic candidate isn’t centrist,
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: RuleNumberOne on September 26, 2019, 07:14:06 PM
Schwab711,

Elizabeth is a shameless demagogue. She has proposed a 14.8% hike on income above $250k for single filers and $400k for joint filers. That translates to the following capital gains tax rates in California:

Long-term: 52% (20% Federal + 13.3% CA state tax + 3.8% Obamacare surcharge + Elizabeth's 14.8%)
Short-term: 69% (37% Federal + 13.3% CA state tax + 3.8% Obamacare surcharge + Elizabeth's 14.8%)

CA home prices are high and that translates to high property taxes. And CA also has a 9% sales tax.

This plan was released by the Demagogue 2 weeks ago to pay for higher Social Security causing her surge in the polls. This lops off a big chunk of after-tax income for people in California. This is what the Demagogue says on her website:

"We should be increasing Social Security benefits and asking the richest Americans to contribute their fair share."

By taking away a large chunk of current after-tax income to swing seniors her way in the polls, she is going to ensure an exodus from CA to low-income low-cost low-tax states. Hurts CA state and is deflationary.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/12/elizabeth-warren-proposes-sweeping-increase-in-social-security-benefits-financed-by-wealth-taxes.html

Lying Liz claims people making $250k and above are "the richest Americans" and they need "to contribute their fair share."

It worked for the Demagogue, soon after she released her plan she overtook Biden.

Capital gains tax rates for Californians have increased by 12.5% due to Obama hikes and CA state hikes. Lying Liz is proposing another 14.8% increase.

"It baffles me, completely, to see people(particularly investors) actually start attempting to rationalize Elizabeth Warren lol."

Anybody with any decent savings, understanding of the economy, love for their family, knows that this repugnant human being would be a disaster for America.

Some of them here supporting her or not opposed own things like BAC, JPM and WFC... HELLOOOOO!!!!!

I would go further, anyone trying to be something in life would never support any of the leftist agenda.

On this website, there seems to be a lot of admiration for Buffett which may skew some mindset on left vs right. However, let's face it, this guy along with Soros are effectively on their death bed with billions in the bank.

These guys had zero heart all throughout their careers basically pillaging other investors and even countries. Now that they are about to die, they want none of us to succeed, pay a ton in taxes (which they never paid!) and to be charitable. Again... HELLOOOOO!!!!!!

Cardboard

This is her actual platform:
https://elizabethwarren.com/plans

A few people have said she's the D version of Trump and it's basically true. I don't really want to get in a habit of saying my politics but I wish other candidates were ahead in the polls. Despite whatever I may think, she's basically the anti-corruption candidate more than anything else. I think there's a widespread image that Warren = Bernie and it's quite inaccurate. I think she actively allows that image to be formed in voter's minds. Bernie openly wants socialism. She openly does not support that path at all. She's Trumpian in the image versus actual platform divergence she allows.

In 1999 or 2000, Trump stated he supported a wealth tax.

Here's an article from Berkeley discussing the unconstitutionality of a wealth tax. It's honestly not going to happen, like the original Muslim Ban.
https://gspp.berkeley.edu/news/news-center/the-constitutionality-of-a-net-worth-tax


The only part of the plan likely to be introduced is the increased IRS enforcement:
https://elizabethwarren.com/plans/ultra-millionaire-tax

I'm not writing this to make excuses for her. I'm pointing out every candidate with support runs on illegal ideas lately. I'm writing this because it is an investment forum and I try to consider what rules will or may be passed and what effects they may have all the time. I did it with taxes in 2016. I think health insurers are the 2020 version of high tax companies and banks. They will do well with a R win and do better than expected with a D win. The market is wrong on them, imo.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: LC on September 26, 2019, 07:32:38 PM
Yeah I don't agree with the income levels for increased SSA taxes, but I do agree with the premise that wage and income growth have diverged. This is essentially the problem:

The top 1% of earners have an estimated effective FICA contribution rate of about 2%, compared to more than 10% for the middle 50% of earners.

Now, how to fix it? Well allowing non-earned income to escape the calculation probably would help. Raising the FICA contribution limit and/or introducing a progressive element (higher % at higher income buckets) would also help. But I don't think a widespread tax of everything over 400K is reasonable.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Schwab711 on September 26, 2019, 07:43:00 PM
Social security taxes don't work that way. We should start a separate thread though.

Back to Ukraine/Trump, there were multiple people that reported concerns about the July 25th call. The WH already knew that the whistleblower was a CIA officer. I don't think they think the Deep State angle will work this time.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/26/us/politics/who-is-whistleblower.html

Worth remembering that Dan Coats resigned on the 28th and DNI Maguire contradicted Trump's talking points several times today.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: meiroy on September 26, 2019, 08:01:15 PM

Even if Trump is removed, all or most of those who enable him will remain.

It's very easy to look at the situation and just dump it all on Trump but this is obviously not the case.

Hence the rise of AOC and Warren, etc.

Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: RuleNumberOne on September 26, 2019, 08:01:55 PM
These are not "Social Security Taxes", don't be evasive.

These are taxes on all investment income of 14.8%. For employer-derived income, the 14.8% is split between employee and employer. The proceeds go towards a higher stipend for retirees so that they can vote for Evasive Elizabeth.


Social security taxes don't work that way. We should start a separate thread though.

Back to Ukraine/Trump, there were multiple people that reported concerns about the July 25th call. The WH already knew that the whistleblower was a CIA officer. I don't think they think the Deep State angle will work this time.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/26/us/politics/who-is-whistleblower.html

Worth remembering that Dan Coats resigned on the 28th and DNI Maguire contradicted Trump's talking points several times today.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: meiroy on September 26, 2019, 08:04:03 PM
It applies only to households with a net worth of $50 million or more—roughly the wealthiest 75,000 households, or the top 0.1%. Households would pay an annual 2% tax on every dollar of net worth above $50 million and a 3% tax on every dollar of net worth above $1 billion.

I'm not sure if this is the way to go, but following what happened in the past 10 years or so, a new QE to households is necessary and will be greatly beneficial to the economy.

Myself and many on this board have greatly benefited from the previous QE so it's quite natural and expected to read here that people push against households QE.  Personally, I see it as a net positive.

Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on September 27, 2019, 12:01:31 AM
These are not "Social Security Taxes", don't be evasive.

These are taxes on all investment income of 14.8%. For employer-derived income, the 14.8% is split between employee and employer. The proceeds go towards a higher stipend for retirees so that they can vote for Evasive Elizabeth.


Social security taxes don't work that way. We should start a separate thread though.

Back to Ukraine/Trump, there were multiple people that reported concerns about the July 25th call. The WH already knew that the whistleblower was a CIA officer. I don't think they think the Deep State angle will work this time.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/26/us/politics/who-is-whistleblower.html

Worth remembering that Dan Coats resigned on the 28th and DNI Maguire contradicted Trump's talking points several times today.

What a lot of people don't get, is that self employed individuals are already paying pretty much 40% on every dollar they make, regardless of tax bracket. So when people bitch, and I see a lot of it especially in relation to the $120K or whatever cutoff where handout taxes get phased out, they miss the point. A 1099 who earns $20K for the year pays about $3,000 just in self employment tax...that's before they even get to their bracket or have to pay for their own health insurance...
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on September 27, 2019, 05:38:46 AM
I would go even further than Parsad. After reading the complaint, reading the phone call memorandum, and watching today's testimony, I think the President, Vice President, AG Barr, Giulliani and others are likely to go down over this. Not only is it a near certainty that Trump will be impeached by the House, I think it is likely that enough Republican Senators will defect and vote to convict, if he is impeached. If it went that far, it would be the first time in history that the Senate voted to convict.


Boom! There it is.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/jeff-flake-35-gop-senators-impeach-trump

Jeff flake says that 35 GOP senators would be willing to vote to impeach trump. One can assume that if the House does impeach Trump and the impeachment makes it to the senate that if those 35 Senators would have been willing to vote to impeach, then they would likely be willing to vote to convict in the Senate if they were given the chance.

The senate has 45 Democrats, 2 Independents and 53 Republicans.

If all 45 Democrats vote to convict, and 35 Republicans vote to convict, that would give you 80 votes. 13 votes in excess of the 67 votes needed. Given that the Democrats already have all the votes needed to impeach from only Democratic Representatives, this looks ominous to me.

Though Trump was friends with Nixon, and Nixon was a mentor, unlike Nixon, Trump will likely try to go down with the ship. He has been the mob-boss-president, and mob bosses are keenly afraid of what happens when they lose power. Look at how many times Trump has gone down this the ship in his business history, while declaring victory the whole way down. I think this could get VERY nasty.

The game theory going on behind the scenes must be fascinating, especially because Pence is also implicated.

If Pence and Trump are somehow taken down, the next in line is actually Nancy Pelosi. That may lead to some very interesting negotiations, such as, if you can get Trump to resign in the next 10 days, we will let you keep Pence. I wonder if there will be conversations like that?
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Cardboard on September 27, 2019, 05:53:19 AM
"Myself and many on this board have greatly benefited from the previous QE so it's quite natural and expected to read here that people push against households QE.  Personally, I see it as a net positive."

This thinking that the saver is somehow guilty and owes something to society because of QE is deeply flawed IMO.

QE was born because spenders borrowed massively, could not honour their debt and created a crisis.

If this had not happened, QE would not have been necessary and savers would have still made similar returns

Cardboard
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: meiroy on September 27, 2019, 06:28:22 AM

QE was [supposedly] necessary due to previous government policy fuckups involving interest rates and such. Inflating asset prices was "unintended consequence".

Households QE is necessary in order to rebalance the economy.

It is a net positive.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cubsfan on September 27, 2019, 07:48:45 AM
We're reaching the point of no return.

So interesting watching this all play out: Democrats turning America into a banana republic ruled by lying bureaucrats like Schiff, Nadler, etc -
taking the power away from the voters of America. Truth or will of the people no longer matters - only political power. One coup attempt after
another - until something works - instead of legislating and moving the country forward under an elected President.

Perhaps Americans will be exhausted with all the phony scandals thrown against the wall - like shit to see if something sticks - and abandon
this disgusting party at the ballot box.

If not, they will get a country ruled by a "resistance fighter" Comey, a Boy Scout McCabe, a true criminal Hillary Clinton, an influence peddler Biden,
scummy low level bureaucrats like Clapper, Brennan, Bruce Ohr, and a totally complicit media.

Say goodbye to a functioning democracy, and hello to the "deep state", where truth doesn't matter.
A country ruled by DC, that voted 94% for Hillary Clinton and Deep State power - to overrule the legitimate votes cast by the American people.

Be careful what you wish for guys.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on September 27, 2019, 08:42:57 AM
Here are some comments on Bill Weld's candidacy for President in 2020.

My memory of Bill Weld was that he was a very boring Governor. I mean boring to be a very positive descriptor in this case.

At some point, corruption, scandal and chaos will limit long-term investment by businesses because they cannot predict the future political climate. Business people hate uncertainty and will frequently wait on the sidelines rather than risk their career or their capital when making decisions under conditions of uncertainty. The continued chaos of the Trump administration at some point will start to hurt our competitiveness. Businesses want to know what rules they have to play by.

It's also interesting that Weld began his career with the House Judiciary Committee during the Watergate impeachment inquiry. I wonder if his experience with that impeachment and his experience prosecuting white collar crime lead him to believe that Trump would be successfully impeached and that would give a Republican challenger an opportunity. He certainly seems to be in the right place at the right time.

I have spoken with fraud investigators and people who work for US District attorney's in the last year or two. It was a random and unscientific survey, but every professional I spoke to was pretty certain they knew which legal theories Trump would be prosecuted under after he leaves office, and their theories make sense to me. If those people were all in agreement and their beliefs made a lot of sense to me, then why wouldn't someone with impeachment experience and federal white collar crime prosecution experience like Weld have insights regarding impeachment that a lay person would not?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Weld

Weld is billed as being socially liberal and fiscally conservative. A combination that a lot of investors claim to support.

What is possibly most interesting is this quote from Wikipedia about Weld's success at appealing to moderates and non-Republicans that allowed him to be elected as a Republican in Massachusetts:

Quote
In 1990, Weld announced his candidacy for Governor of Massachusetts, to replace the out-going Michael Dukakis. Although Republicans made up under 14% of the Massachusetts electorate and a Republican had not won the gubernatorial election since 1970, Weld's liberal stances on social issues made him a viable candidate for office in the heavily Democratic state.

I live in an overwhelmingly Republican town. It's interesting to note that I have seen only one presidential election sign in my town, the "Any Functioning Adult 2020" sign. The "Any Functioning Adult 2020" signs are everywhere. I suspect that a lot of those signs are in the yards of political conservatives, Republicans and independents.

Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cwericb on September 27, 2019, 10:14:53 AM
"Be careful what you wish for guys."
Yup. The scariest part of impeachment is Mike Pence.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cwericb on September 27, 2019, 10:26:53 AM
In an effort to balance my personal political views, I have listened to Fox instead of CNN for the past 2-3 months (I spend 2 hours a day commuting). Aside from Shepherd Smith and Chris Wallace, most of the commentators seem to be decidedly pro Trump.

However, in the past few days I have noticed a bit of a shift against Trump or at least a more neutral sentiment regarding his present problems. If Fox is starting to shift away from their support, it may be an indication that people in general have finally grown tired of his Presidency and his overall behavior and feel that he has finally crossed a line.  JMHO.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Cardboard on September 27, 2019, 10:41:25 AM
""Be careful what you wish for guys."
Yup. The scariest part of impeachment is Mike Pence."

You call yourself a conservative, apparently being a member in Canada but, all I hear you say all the time is that most if not all U.S. conservatives are bad.

What is so wrong with Mike Pence? Is he that different vs some of the top Republican candidates who tried to beat Trump in the primary?

Do you want a Trudeau for U.S. president???
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cwericb on September 27, 2019, 11:48:23 AM
Yeah I like your Idea. Let’s send Justin to the States. I may be wrong, but I think Justin doesn't have a hope in hell of forming the next government. Now you might not agree but a minority Conservative government would suit me just fine. Harper was great until he got his majority and I wonder if Justin understands that he never won his election, it was simply a vote against Harper and Justin ended up PM by default.

For the past 3 years it seems that Pence has been just a gofer for Trump and seems to have no mind of his own. Those guys need to go.

Personally if I could appoint the next President of the US it would probably be John Kasich. He is not perfect, but then who is? I think he is a no nonsense type of guy and is a straight shooter, but then I haven’t followed him before he ran against Trump..

“You call yourself a conservative, apparently being a member in Canada but, all I hear you say all the time is that most if not all U.S. conservatives are bad.”

Never said that.

However, there are conservatives and there are conservatives. I consider myself to be a bit right of center. But some on here are way more extreme right than I would agree with. I can understand how they feel that way, but people have to have some give and take and if the extreme right and the extreme left don’t  start backing off towards the center, the future of the US looks pretty dismal. I would think it is time for a third party because both extremes are going to tear the country apart.

The remark that Trump made about shooting someone and not losing any supporters is all too true - and I don’t include you in that group by the way, as I have seen you moderate your support for Trump at times.

Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Castanza on September 27, 2019, 12:32:15 PM
Yeah I like your Idea. Let’s send Justin to the States. I may be wrong, but I think Justin has a hope in hell of forming the next government. Now you might not agree but a minority Conservative government would suit me just fine. Harper was great until he got his majority and I wonder if Justin understands that he never won his election, it was simply a vote against Harper and Justin ended up PM by default.

For the past 3 years it seems that Pence has been just a gofer for Trump and seems to have no mind of his own. Those guys need to go.

Personally if I could appoint the next President of the US it would probably be John Kasich. He is not perfect, but then who is? I think he is a no nonsense type of guy and is a straight shooter, but then I haven’t followed him before he ran against Trump..

“You call yourself a conservative, apparently being a member in Canada but, all I hear you say all the time is that most if not all U.S. conservatives are bad.”

Never said that.

However, there are conservatives and there are conservatives. I consider myself to be a bit right of center. But some on here are way more extreme right than I would agree with. I can understand how they feel that way, but people have to have some give and take and if the extreme right and the extreme left don’t  start backing off towards the center, the future of the US looks pretty dismal. I would think it is time for a third party because both extremes are going to tear the country apart.

The remark that Trump made about shooting someone and not losing any supporters is all too true - and I don’t include in that group by the way, as I have seen you moderate your support for Trump at times.

When I first lived in Ohio I though John Kasich was pretty good. I liked his "right to work" stance, the fact that he cut education funding, cut planned parenthood funding. He was for the most part fiscally conservative. But he immediately changed almost all of his stances when he ran for President (which came out of nowhere). I don't trust a politician that is willing to flip his stance so easily in such a short amount of time. I think he has a bolt loose. Look at him in the video below berating some police officer who gave him a ticket. Not saying he would be terrible, but there are certainly better people out there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyQHUSH-Zww
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on September 27, 2019, 12:34:18 PM
Yeah I like your Idea. Let’s send Justin to the States. I may be wrong, but I think Justin has a hope in hell of forming the next government. Now you might not agree but a minority Conservative government would suit me just fine. Harper was great until he got his majority and I wonder if Justin understands that he never won his election, it was simply a vote against Harper and Justin ended up PM by default.

For the past 3 years it seems that Pence has been just a gofer for Trump and seems to have no mind of his own. Those guys need to go.

Personally if I could appoint the next President of the US it would probably be John Kasich. He is not perfect, but then who is? I think he is a no nonsense type of guy and is a straight shooter, but then I haven’t followed him before he ran against Trump..

“You call yourself a conservative, apparently being a member in Canada but, all I hear you say all the time is that most if not all U.S. conservatives are bad.”

Never said that.

However, there are conservatives and there are conservatives. I consider myself to be a bit right of center. But some on here are way more extreme right than I would agree with. I can understand how they feel that way, but people have to have some give and take and if the extreme right and the extreme left don’t  start backing off towards the center, the future of the US looks pretty dismal. I would think it is time for a third party because both extremes are going to tear the country apart.

The remark that Trump made about shooting someone and not losing any supporters is all too true - and I don’t include in that group by the way, as I have seen you moderate your support for Trump at times.

When I first lived in Ohio I though John Kasich was pretty good. I liked his "right to work" stance, the fact that he cut education funding, cut planned parenthood funding. He was for the most part fiscally conservative. But he immediately changed almost all of his stances when he ran for President (which came out of nowhere). I don't trust a politician that is willing to flip his stance so easily in such a short amount of time. I think he has a bolt loose. Look at him in the video below berating some police officer who gave him a ticket. Not saying he would be terrible, but there are certainly better people out there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyQHUSH-Zww

The bolded is all one needs to focus on. And therein lies my appreciation for Trump. He's exposing all of them(Dems and Republicans) as corrupt, do nothing losers who leach off the system and manipulate their bases to keep the gig going.

I mean look at this week's events. You have clips from 1999 of Lindsay Graham and Nancy Pelosi doing, and saying, and behaving in exact opposite fashions to an extent its comedic. This just shows its all a farce.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on September 27, 2019, 12:42:07 PM
Yeah I like your Idea. Let’s send Justin to the States. I may be wrong, but I think Justin has a hope in hell of forming the next government. Now you might not agree but a minority Conservative government would suit me just fine. Harper was great until he got his majority and I wonder if Justin understands that he never won his election, it was simply a vote against Harper and Justin ended up PM by default.

For the past 3 years it seems that Pence has been just a gofer for Trump and seems to have no mind of his own. Those guys need to go.

Personally if I could appoint the next President of the US it would probably be John Kasich. He is not perfect, but then who is? I think he is a no nonsense type of guy and is a straight shooter, but then I haven’t followed him before he ran against Trump..

“You call yourself a conservative, apparently being a member in Canada but, all I hear you say all the time is that most if not all U.S. conservatives are bad.”

Never said that.

However, there are conservatives and there are conservatives. I consider myself to be a bit right of center. But some on here are way more extreme right than I would agree with. I can understand how they feel that way, but people have to have some give and take and if the extreme right and the extreme left don’t  start backing off towards the center, the future of the US looks pretty dismal. I would think it is time for a third party because both extremes are going to tear the country apart.

The remark that Trump made about shooting someone and not losing any supporters is all too true - and I don’t include in that group by the way, as I have seen you moderate your support for Trump at times.

When I first lived in Ohio I though John Kasich was pretty good. I liked his "right to work" stance, the fact that he cut education funding, cut planned parenthood funding. He was for the most part fiscally conservative. But he immediately changed almost all of his stances when he ran for President (which came out of nowhere). I don't trust a politician that is willing to flip his stance so easily in such a short amount of time. I think he has a bolt loose. Look at him in the video below berating some police officer who gave him a ticket. Not saying he would be terrible, but there are certainly better people out there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyQHUSH-Zww

The bolded is all one needs to focus on. And therein lies my appreciation for Trump. He's exposing all of them(Dems and Republicans) as corrupt, do nothing losers who leach off the system and manipulate their bases to keep the gig going.

I agree completely. That's what I appreciate about Hitler. Hitler really exposed what those corrupt Germans were capable of, and someone really needed to do it.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Castanza on September 27, 2019, 12:45:34 PM
Yeah I like your Idea. Let’s send Justin to the States. I may be wrong, but I think Justin has a hope in hell of forming the next government. Now you might not agree but a minority Conservative government would suit me just fine. Harper was great until he got his majority and I wonder if Justin understands that he never won his election, it was simply a vote against Harper and Justin ended up PM by default.

For the past 3 years it seems that Pence has been just a gofer for Trump and seems to have no mind of his own. Those guys need to go.

Personally if I could appoint the next President of the US it would probably be John Kasich. He is not perfect, but then who is? I think he is a no nonsense type of guy and is a straight shooter, but then I haven’t followed him before he ran against Trump..

“You call yourself a conservative, apparently being a member in Canada but, all I hear you say all the time is that most if not all U.S. conservatives are bad.”

Never said that.

However, there are conservatives and there are conservatives. I consider myself to be a bit right of center. But some on here are way more extreme right than I would agree with. I can understand how they feel that way, but people have to have some give and take and if the extreme right and the extreme left don’t  start backing off towards the center, the future of the US looks pretty dismal. I would think it is time for a third party because both extremes are going to tear the country apart.

The remark that Trump made about shooting someone and not losing any supporters is all too true - and I don’t include in that group by the way, as I have seen you moderate your support for Trump at times.

When I first lived in Ohio I though John Kasich was pretty good. I liked his "right to work" stance, the fact that he cut education funding, cut planned parenthood funding. He was for the most part fiscally conservative. But he immediately changed almost all of his stances when he ran for President (which came out of nowhere). I don't trust a politician that is willing to flip his stance so easily in such a short amount of time. I think he has a bolt loose. Look at him in the video below berating some police officer who gave him a ticket. Not saying he would be terrible, but there are certainly better people out there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyQHUSH-Zww

The bolded is all one needs to focus on. And therein lies my appreciation for Trump. He's exposing all of them(Dems and Republicans) as corrupt, do nothing losers who leach off the system and manipulate their bases to keep the gig going.

I agree completely. That's what I appreciate about Hitler. Hitler really exposed what those corrupt Germans were capable of, and someone really needed to do it.

You must be on this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-lZ0j0XNBA
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on September 27, 2019, 12:55:29 PM
Yeah I like your Idea. Let’s send Justin to the States. I may be wrong, but I think Justin has a hope in hell of forming the next government. Now you might not agree but a minority Conservative government would suit me just fine. Harper was great until he got his majority and I wonder if Justin understands that he never won his election, it was simply a vote against Harper and Justin ended up PM by default.

For the past 3 years it seems that Pence has been just a gofer for Trump and seems to have no mind of his own. Those guys need to go.

Personally if I could appoint the next President of the US it would probably be John Kasich. He is not perfect, but then who is? I think he is a no nonsense type of guy and is a straight shooter, but then I haven’t followed him before he ran against Trump..

“You call yourself a conservative, apparently being a member in Canada but, all I hear you say all the time is that most if not all U.S. conservatives are bad.”

Never said that.

However, there are conservatives and there are conservatives. I consider myself to be a bit right of center. But some on here are way more extreme right than I would agree with. I can understand how they feel that way, but people have to have some give and take and if the extreme right and the extreme left don’t  start backing off towards the center, the future of the US looks pretty dismal. I would think it is time for a third party because both extremes are going to tear the country apart.

The remark that Trump made about shooting someone and not losing any supporters is all too true - and I don’t include in that group by the way, as I have seen you moderate your support for Trump at times.

When I first lived in Ohio I though John Kasich was pretty good. I liked his "right to work" stance, the fact that he cut education funding, cut planned parenthood funding. He was for the most part fiscally conservative. But he immediately changed almost all of his stances when he ran for President (which came out of nowhere). I don't trust a politician that is willing to flip his stance so easily in such a short amount of time. I think he has a bolt loose. Look at him in the video below berating some police officer who gave him a ticket. Not saying he would be terrible, but there are certainly better people out there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyQHUSH-Zww

The bolded is all one needs to focus on. And therein lies my appreciation for Trump. He's exposing all of them(Dems and Republicans) as corrupt, do nothing losers who leach off the system and manipulate their bases to keep the gig going.

I agree completely. That's what I appreciate about Hitler. Hitler really exposed what those corrupt Germans were capable of, and someone really needed to do it.

You must be on this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-lZ0j0XNBA
Ok. I admit it was a joke, but I do not think we should celebrate anyone for bringing out the worst in people.

A fish rots from the head, and if the Trump administration has issues, I think it's fair to ask why.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cubsfan on September 27, 2019, 02:54:16 PM

I don't trust a politician
The bolded is all one needs to focus on. And therein lies my appreciation for Trump. He's exposing all of them(Dems and Republicans) as corrupt, do nothing losers who leach off the system and manipulate their bases to keep the gig going.


Bingo - that is all you need to know about this disgrace. A US President beholden to NO ONE, but the American people is being sunk by
the DC Swamp. The Left, Democrats and many Republicans want Trump OUT to protect their turf and careers. They could care less
what the people want. They want what the Clintons, Obama and Biden have - they want political power so they can be rich too.

The truth doesn't matter anymore.

Welcome to the Banana Republic guys, where the people don't rule.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Schwab711 on September 27, 2019, 03:03:18 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/27/us/politics/trump-lapierre-nra-impeachment.html#click=https://t.co/JU3XRUl8rQ

Pay for play?
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on September 28, 2019, 06:17:34 PM
In an effort to balance my personal political views, I have listened to Fox instead of CNN for the past 2-3 months (I spend 2 hours a day commuting). Aside from Shepherd Smith and Chris Wallace, most of the commentators seem to be decidedly pro Trump.

However, in the past few days I have noticed a bit of a shift against Trump or at least a more neutral sentiment regarding his present problems. If Fox is starting to shift away from their support, it may be an indication that people in general have finally grown tired of his Presidency and his overall behavior and feel that he has finally crossed a line.  JMHO.
I have found reading about media bias to be useful as I try to balance out my sources on a daily basis.

https://www.adfontesmedia.com

I agree with you that Fox and other biased sources on the right seemed flummoxed for a while. At some point they will likely start repeating talking points put out by the Trump administration or campaign.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Vish_ram on September 30, 2019, 07:46:26 AM
Trump is having a melt down. The shrillness of his tweets increases by the day. R's support remains shaky. Wheels of justice turn slowly.

Fox is very astute in preparing themselves for a post-Trump era. President Pence anyone?

In an effort to balance my personal political views, I have listened to Fox instead of CNN for the past 2-3 months (I spend 2 hours a day commuting). Aside from Shepherd Smith and Chris Wallace, most of the commentators seem to be decidedly pro Trump.

However, in the past few days I have noticed a bit of a shift against Trump or at least a more neutral sentiment regarding his present problems. If Fox is starting to shift away from their support, it may be an indication that people in general have finally grown tired of his Presidency and his overall behavior and feel that he has finally crossed a line.  JMHO.
I have found reading about media bias to be useful as I try to balance out my sources on a daily basis.

https://www.adfontesmedia.com

I agree with you that Fox and other biased sources on the right seemed flummoxed for a while. At some point they will likely start repeating talking points put out by the Trump administration or campaign.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Cardboard on September 30, 2019, 08:02:42 AM
I love his latest tweet:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1142157838153895941

I watched 60 minutes last night and all I saw was strong support by McCarthy. I also enjoyed when Scott Pelley asked Schiff about putting the country through another 2 years of basically witch hunting. LOL!

Do you really believe that McConnell and the Senate will toss Trump? If they were to do it, would only be to increase Republican chances of winning again.

Once more, the problem lies in the Democrats court: they are too damn stupid to find a proper candidate that Americans like and represent the values of the quiet majority.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cubsfan on September 30, 2019, 08:39:08 AM
Once more, the problem lies in the Democrats court: they are too damn stupid to find a proper candidate that Americans like and represent the values of the quiet majority.

Bingo:  If you don't have a compelling message for the voters, then simply attack the messenger endlessly until you bring him down.

It didn't work for Hillary in 2016: "Hi Middle America - my message is I am not Donald Trump the monster, but other than that, I have no message"

Fast forward to 2019 Democrats:  "We have not learned a thing from the last election"
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on September 30, 2019, 02:11:11 PM
Pompeo Took Part in the Ukraine Call

https://www.wsj.com/articles/mcconnell-envisions-senate-trial-if-house-passes-articles-of-impeachment-11569865002?mod=hp_lead_pos1

Lie down with dogs, get fleas.

The fact that Mnuchin was out making the rounds on talk shows for Trump is an indication that he is the highest ranking official that is not implicated in the Ukraine scandal. That has just been confirmed. Unfortunately for GSE reform, Mnuchin and his aides have likely been a bit distracted with this for some time.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cubsfan on September 30, 2019, 07:13:22 PM
Nice to see old Joe out golfing with his son and business associates at Burisma - but, no, they never talked about any influence Joe might provide.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/joe-hunter-biden-seen-golfing-with-ukraine-gas-company-exec-back-in-2014-photo-shows

Good thing Joe Biden was sent to Ukraine to clean up corruption!

Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Cardboard on September 30, 2019, 07:36:39 PM
Common sense is not so common Cubsfan!

Trying to explain such things to die hard Democrats or never-Trump folks is useless unfortunately. That is why we get guys like Read the Footnotes saying that we bring no argument, no value. He knows better you know?

Parsad was using the term in a previous post: "intellectual honesty". Yup!
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on October 01, 2019, 11:42:45 AM
Another aspect of this that stinks to high heaven is this... Look at the completely bogus stuff the Dems tried pulling with Kavanaugh...what blew it all up? Bringing those frauds to light to testify and stand behind their claims...So...how do you manufacture a big story, but keep it from blowing up again and being exposed as nonsense? An anonymous whistleblower seems like the best bet.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cubsfan on October 01, 2019, 12:30:46 PM
..So...how do you manufacture a big story, but keep it from blowing up again and being exposed as nonsense? An anonymous whistleblower seems like the best bet.

Yes, it's really quite a brilliant strategy by a dishonest partisan group: create a vehicle where one can not face his accuser.
The longer it all takes, the longer the smear can goe on. And if Biden is a casualty - so be it.

And, really, their timing is perfect - on the heels of 2 IG reports that should be out fairly soon. One by Horowitz, one by Durham.
Those will likely be devastating to Obama's administration: FBI, CIA, State Dept, and even DOJ.

This is the Democrats best chance to bury the truth when it comes out from the IG reports.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cubsfan on October 01, 2019, 03:30:44 PM
Nice try Schwab - I never said anything like the first, but you're excused anyway.

And I will apologize to you - on the second point - I do NOT know that it is a Democratic Whistleblower. So I will clarify for you.
You win again. It very well may be a Republican whistleblower that hates Trump - Washington is loaded with them.

What is apparent: The Whistleblower is operating on hearsay - that we know. So good for the Democrats to seize on it
as to what looks like their last opportunity to impeach Trump. It failed for Mueller with all his innuendos - and I doubt it will
work this time when the whistleblower and his backers are exposed. After all, Comey, McCabe, Glen Simpson, Ohr,  Mueller  etc - have been totally
disgraced after their "bombshell" revalations that turned out to backfire on them.

You definitely need to get rid of Trump before IG reports come out - the Democrats have too much to lose given all the failed coup attempts.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 01, 2019, 03:32:22 PM
Here's a bit of comedy from way back a couple of days ago when we didn't know that Pompeo was on the infamous Ukraine shakedown call.

If you want to know what Mike Pompeo looks like when he is really struggling to give a deceptive answer without outright lying, you can find a great baseline in this video of an interview by Martha Raddatz.

He clearly had prepared the Trump talking points, which would have had him saying something deceptive when asked about the complaint. Instead, he was surprised by the broad sweep of her question about the call itself instead of the complaint and his planned narrowly formulated deceptive responses would not work with the broad question. I am guessing it is hard to find an example of a Harvard Law grad, or US Representative, or US Presidential Cabinet member stumbling for words as much as he does in this video.

https://theweek.com/speedreads/868870/last-week-mike-pompeo-said-didnt-know-anything-about-trumps-ukraine-call
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cubsfan on October 01, 2019, 03:54:28 PM
Here is some real comedy gold for you - in the too strange to be believed category:

Does the fact that Joe Biden is running for President make him immune to ethical scrutiny?

Does the public have a right to know the exact nature of what Joe Biden did in the Ukraine?

The former Vice President was tasked with Ukrainian affairs, when his problem plagued son, who had no energy or foreign policy experience,
made a great deal of money from a corrupt Ukrainian energy company. It looks like his "Biden" name was very, very valuable to the company.
And when a curious Ukrainian prosecutor started an investigation into the company and his son's activities - the former Vice President
stepped in - withheld a $1B payment AND BRAGGED ABOUT GETTING THE CURIOUS PROSECUTOR FIRED. 
AND THEN, Hunter Biden was no longer being investigated. AND THEN Hunter Biden made a great deal of money as a result.

Now THAT is comedy gold - cause no one would believe that was ETHICAL in the least.

You may think that the American people are stupid - but they are not.

Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 01, 2019, 05:38:33 PM
Looks like the next shoe likely drops tomorrow when State Department Inspector General Steve Linick meets with several congressional committees.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/463926-state-dept-inspector-general-expected-to-brief-congressional

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_A._Linick

https://www.stateoig.gov

The first whistleblower may show a road map for others. I expect we might see several before this is over and on multiple subjects. It's cockroach theory. Probably a lot of laws have been broken and a lot of people know about it, it's just a matter of time until they feel safe speaking about it. This may be a start of the dam bursting, but who knows what's going on.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on October 02, 2019, 12:46:14 PM
https://nypost.com/2019/10/02/adam-schiff-knew-about-whistleblowers-complaint-before-it-was-filed-report/

LOL. These idiots just cant keep the threads from eventually unraveling. As we suspected, a scam orchestrated by the libtards...
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cubsfan on October 02, 2019, 05:08:57 PM
https://nypost.com/2019/10/02/adam-schiff-knew-about-whistleblowers-complaint-before-it-was-filed-report/

LOL. These idiots just cant keep the threads from eventually unraveling. As we suspected, a scam orchestrated by the libtards...

So Adam Schiff colluded with the Whistleblower to file his complaint?   

https://thefederalist.com/2019/10/02/breaking-anti-trump-whistleblower-colluded-with-house-democrats-before-filing-complaint/

I really am shocked.

Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 03, 2019, 04:40:26 PM
It seems unusual to me for FoxNews.com to publish an opinion piece that differs from Trump or Republican talking points. Anyone have an opinion on how unusual this opinion piece from Foxnews.com is?

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/judge-andrew-napolitano-trump-attacks-presidency
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Cardboard on October 03, 2019, 07:02:55 PM
What is it Read the Footnotes? Grasping at straws?
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Parsad on October 03, 2019, 09:50:21 PM
What is it Read the Footnotes? Grasping at straws?

You know the whole collusion thing was based solely on a third-party witness, but this one is admitted to directly by the White House and the entire administration.  Numbnuts went on television today and told China should investigate the Bidens. 

People are distancing themselves this time.  You're not going to get a bunch of cohorts going to prison...this time he's going down...impeached.  And Pence will also probably not be able to distance himself enough to be appointed President.  Guiliani, Volker...all going down.  Play the music from the end of Goodfellas!  Cheers!
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 04, 2019, 03:45:35 AM
It seems unusual to me for FoxNews.com to publish an opinion piece that differs from Trump or Republican talking points. Anyone have an opinion on how unusual this opinion piece from Foxnews.com is?

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/judge-andrew-napolitano-trump-attacks-presidency

If anyone didn't follow the link, I highly recommend you do. Judge Napolitano seems very well reasoned to me.

Just in case anyone decided not to click on the link because they made assumptions of some sort, let me encourage you not to let your political biases trick you on this one. It's really worth clicking on.

Also, here's a video from Judge Napolitano.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/judge-andrew-napolitano-trump-attacks-presidency
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on October 04, 2019, 07:05:26 AM
What is it Read the Footnotes? Grasping at straws?

You know the whole collusion thing was based solely on a third-party witness, but this one is admitted to directly by the White House and the entire administration.  Numbnuts went on television today and told China should investigate the Bidens. 

People are distancing themselves this time.  You're not going to get a bunch of cohorts going to prison...this time he's going down...impeached.  And Pence will also probably not be able to distance himself enough to be appointed President.  Guiliani, Volker...all going down.  Play the music from the end of Goodfellas!  Cheers!

Even if we want to disregard the Senate being controlled by the Republicans, you can't really ignore the asinine move by Schiff to effectively quarterback this thing and then lie about his involvement. Ive read a number of clippings from even the liberal news outlets stating that this is a major problem optically, and that many Democrats behind the scenes are furious with him. This may have bungled the whole thing, which was already highly partisan, but admittedly, probably their best shot at making something happen. Granted it was still a half court shot rather than a free throw, but once again, they sabotage themselves because of their own TDS caused angst.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Cardboard on October 04, 2019, 07:14:12 AM
"If anyone didn't follow the link, I highly recommend you do. Judge Napolitano seems very well reasoned to me."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGdWTV2Pl3I

Now after this video do you still find him as well reasoned?

"... let me encourage you not to let your political biases trick you on this one." LOL!

Cardboard
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Schwab711 on October 04, 2019, 07:18:39 AM
This was addressed in 2016 over and over. By statutes, Hillary was guilty, no doubt. I wrote as much at the time. By the Gen. Petraeus precedent, if they charged her it wouldn't stick. That's why the DOJ couldn't move forward with charges (they have to believe charges will stick). Mueller said as much about Trump Jr (fear charges wouldn't stick, so didn't indict at all).

Not holding Trump accountable for campaign finance crimes would create more laws where the elite are not held to the same standards as average people. That's the underlying fight right now. The R vs D fight is the magician's hand waving.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 04, 2019, 07:46:17 AM
"If anyone didn't follow the link, I highly recommend you do. Judge Napolitano seems very well reasoned to me."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGdWTV2Pl3I

Now after this video do you still find him as well reasoned?

"... let me encourage you not to let your political biases trick you on this one." LOL!

Cardboard

Ad hominem attack on a Fox commentator. I won't indulge such a bias.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cubsfan on October 05, 2019, 08:45:24 AM
 Stanford Hoover Institute Political Historian Victor Davis Hanson discusses both sides (Biden/Trump) of the Ukraine issue.

Worth a listen for the openminded:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/victor-davis-hanson-ukraine-impeachment-bidens

Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 06, 2019, 04:09:13 PM
This piece does a good job of reminding the reader of the Ukrainian context of the Ukraine bribery scandal and the risks to Ukraine and Europe.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/10/06/putin-trump-zelensky-phone-call-229243
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: meiroy on October 07, 2019, 02:33:39 AM

Even if Trump is removed, all or most of those who enable him will remain.

It's very easy to look at the situation and just dump it all on Trump but this is obviously not the case.

Hence the rise of AOC and Warren, etc.

OK, I think I exaggerated here. The way things are going, some of his enablers will go down, probably in the dozens. Maybe this will be the awakening moment of the GOP and we'll get a sane party again. Just maybe.

Hope springs eternal

Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 07, 2019, 03:40:06 AM
The Ukraine scandal may have been much broader and deeper. Giuliani and Perry may have been acting to put pressure on Ukraine to help his business buddies (including buddies born in Russia) make a profit in Ukraine's natural gas market.

https://apnews.com/d7440cffba4940f5b85cd3dfa3500fb2

After reading this news, I think we need to know what was in those phone calls with Putin. Much of the dispute over Ukraine stems from Russia's natural gas interests.

Also, since the President is making false claims about corruption involving a natural gas company against Biden, I think this link might be helpful to understanding the situation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cubsfan on October 07, 2019, 04:19:05 PM
Nice clear video clip on how Hunter Biden cashes in on $1.5B deal in China using his VP father's influence.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/10/04/schweizer_bidens_son_cashed_in_on_vp_being_point_man_for_obama_in_ukraine_and_china.html

Deal done in 2 weeks.

How long would it take you money managers to raise $1.5B for your fund if your VP father didn't help?

Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: meiroy on October 07, 2019, 11:06:14 PM

Is it me or did Fox News start to slowly turn against Trump?
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 08, 2019, 05:42:05 AM

Is it me or did Fox News start to slowly turn against Trump?

I think someone else had already asked that question before me, but 5 days ago when I posted the following post I was trying to ask the same thing without being so direct in a hope that I would not bias the response:

It seems unusual to me for FoxNews.com to publish an opinion piece that differs from Trump or Republican talking points. Anyone have an opinion on how unusual this opinion piece from Foxnews.com is?

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/judge-andrew-napolitano-trump-attacks-presidency

If anyone didn't follow the link, I highly recommend you do. Judge Napolitano seems very well reasoned to me.

Just in case anyone decided not to click on the link because they made assumptions of some sort, let me encourage you not to let your political biases trick you on this one. It's really worth clicking on.

Also, here's a video from Judge Napolitano.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/judge-andrew-napolitano-trump-attacks-presidency
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 08, 2019, 05:44:25 AM
Someone please explain to me how Trump's actions in Syria are not both:

1) An attempt to distract from his crimes at a giant cost to the USA, and
2) A giant gift to Vladimir Putin.

It's amazing what you can buy with some pee tapes and a promise of election assistance.

Edit: I forgot to mention that Putin likely has tapes of his conversations with Trump which could be used to blackmail Trump.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: LC on October 08, 2019, 07:24:27 AM
What's more frightening is Trump's willingness to pull out of the open skies treaty:

https://theweek.com/speedreads/870300/trump-apparently-wants-pull-from-open-skies-treaty-nobody-knows-why

Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cubsfan on October 08, 2019, 04:28:49 PM
https://nypost.com/2019/10/02/adam-schiff-knew-about-whistleblowers-complaint-before-it-was-filed-report/

LOL. These idiots just cant keep the threads from eventually unraveling. As we suspected, a scam orchestrated by the libtards...

So Adam Schiff colluded with the Whistleblower to file his complaint?   

https://thefederalist.com/2019/10/02/breaking-anti-trump-whistleblower-colluded-with-house-democrats-before-filing-complaint/

I really am shocked.

Damn - it just get worse for the Democrats - now it looks like whistleblower was not only a registered Democrat coached by Adam Schiff -
but he/she was also had a relationship with one of the Democratic Presidential Candidates.

You can't make this stuff up, it's so sleazy.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/whistleblower-had-professional-tie-to-2020-democratic-candidate

Under questioning from Republicans during last Friday's impeachment inquiry interview with Atkinson, the inspector general revealed that the whistleblower's possible bias was not that he was simply a registered Democrat. It was that he had a significant tie to one of the Democratic presidential candidates currently vying to challenge President Trump in next year's election.

"The IG said [the whistleblower] worked or had some type of professional relationship with one of the Democratic candidates," said one person with knowledge of what was said.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 08, 2019, 06:17:58 PM
The best legal experience I ever got when I was very young. I asked my father why he did so much work for a big blowhard, an overreaching jerk, rather than for his best friend Grant McFaden. He said, ‘That man you call a blowhard is a walking bonanza of legal troubles, whereas Grant McFaden, who fixes problems promptly and is nice, hardly generates any legal work at all.’ My dad was teaching me a lesson and it worked.

-Charlie Munger

Now I understand why all these Republican congressmen with legal backgrounds have been sucking up to Trump. They know he's a goldmine!

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/464946-gowdy-in-talks-to-join-trumps-impeachment-defense-team
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 08, 2019, 06:33:38 PM
"Jimmy Carter's impeachment advice for Trump: Tell the truth for a change
The former president also says it's unwise for Trump to stonewall Congress."

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/08/jimmy-carter-trump-impeachment-040753

My forecast is that eventually we will see Jimmy Carter, George Bush, and Barack Obama join together to call for Trump's resignation. I would not be surprised if they hold a joint photo op, although a letter or op-ed might be more likely. It would not surprise me if they threw in a few vice-presidents for good measure, just to add to the gravitas. I suppose it's more likely to happen after impeachment, but who knows.

Also, don't be surprised if you see more lovefests between the left and the right like George Bush and Ellen Degeneres just happening to go to a ball game together. It also wouldn't surprise me if some ex-presidents decided to all go to a baseball game together, and maybe share some apple pie for good measure.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 09, 2019, 03:45:56 AM
From Richard Lewis's Transcript of the 2019 Daily Journal Meeting:
(http://latticeworkinvesting.com/category/charlie-munger/)

Quote
My father had this best friend and client and he also had this other client who is a big blowhard and he was always working for the big blowhard and he wasn’t ever working for his wonderful client whom I admired. And I said, “Why do you do this?” And he said, “Charlie you idiot…” He says, “the big blowhard is an endless source of legal troubles. He’s always in trouble. Overreaching and misbehaving and so forth. Whereas Grant McFadden treats everybody right. The employees, the customers, everything. And if he gets involved with some psychotic he walks over there and makes a graceful exit immediately. A man like that doesn’t need a lawyer.” My father was trying to teach me something and it really worked. I spent my whole life trying to be like Grant McFadden and I want to tell you it works. It really works.
-Charlie Munger

I think this mess may create as much work as the tobacco settlements. If I were given the chance to try to get elected or re-elected as a republican Trump supporter or to go on to his legal defense team, I would probably feel a calling to go back to the law. It's probably higher paid, although the client's creditworthiness, especially willingness to pay has been questioned, and job security might be pretty much guaranteed for a decade or more.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 09, 2019, 04:47:39 AM
Quote
Dems raise fresh quid-pro-quo questions about Ukraine missile sale
The sale raises the prospect that President Donald Trump may have been pressuring Ukraine in exchange for political favors far earlier than previously known.

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/08/trump-ukraine-missile-sale-040915

It appears the house impeachment inquiry has been exploring whether Trump tampered with Ukrainian cooperation with the Mueller investigation through a similar quid pro quo with the previous Ukranian administration. That would tie all the pieces together.

If you're looking for a unifying theory of the Ukraine scandal it is this: What democrats know and/or suspect, but can't say publicly yet, is that since Zelensky's election Trump was testing and pressuring the new administration to see if Zelensky and his government would play ball as their Poroshenko predecessors had. In other words, the scandal did not start in July 2019, it goes back for years and it was only exposed due to the difficulty of transitioning a corrupt quid pro quo relationship from one administration to another.

It's a very simple explanation. It will be interesting to see if facts are revealed to support this explanation.

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 09, 2019, 05:06:25 AM
https://www.gq.com/story/ukraine-us-political-scandals-including-trump-impeachment-inquiry

While Hunter Biden's involvement in the Burisma may not have been illegal, the article does a good job of providing qualitative context for why any involvement in Ukraine would create a repetitional risk.

The use of recognizable political names on boards in Ukraine actually reminds me of Theranos's similar attempt at creating an air of legitimacy.

I recommend that this GQ article goes well with a can of Billy Beer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Beer).
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on October 09, 2019, 07:25:03 AM
Oh boy. Now its being reported that the "whistleblower" has direct ties to a 2020 Democrat campaign and that his lawyer is a prominent Democrat as well....Sorry Dems, looks like the latest stunt is falling apart. At least it lasted longer than the Kavanaugh farce.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Schwab711 on October 09, 2019, 07:51:11 AM
Trump is the last politician to hire the whistleblower. Trump was almost certainly aware (at least certainly should have been aware) of the whistleblower's work experience. Trump hired them anyway.

Trump committed crimes and admitted to them. There is no amount of excuses or fingerpointing that will change that. It doesn't make it a coup. Trump can take down as many people with him as he'd like, but he still admitted to campaign finance crimes in front of the whole country. It's sad you can't admit it.

There's always excuses and what-ifs. "But Trump is only being investigated because he did his crimes in public unlike past politicians". Yes, that is why he is being investigated again. Do whatever about Hunter, I don't care. Tarnish Joe Biden for his associations/COI, great. Bitch about Warren embellishing about being Indian because it's a family story she took to heart (with 23andMe, you'd think people might get this is a nothingburger).

Trump broke numerous laws and admitted to them over the years. Bragged about them. There's no amount of bullshit explaining or excusing that will change that. It's not a Dem conspiracy. There's no coup. He lies to you and you are too proud to admit you were deceived. All other discussion is pointless imo.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cubsfan on October 09, 2019, 08:00:12 AM
This is so deranged Schwab - it's too funny actually.

Your President Trump, is the MOST scrutinized US President EVER - from Day 1 - and NOTHING so far.

You must just love CNN and MSNBC, where the REAL criminals, McCabe, Clapper, and Brennan are scrambling for their lives
to DEFLECT all their illegal activities back to Trump.

It's just not working Schwab - but it IS making a mess of the country.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Schwab711 on October 09, 2019, 08:02:19 AM
This is so deranged Schwab - it's too funny actually.

Your President Trump, is the MOST scrutinized US President EVER - from Day 1 - and NOTHING so far.

You must just love CNN and MSNBC, where the REAL criminals, McCabe, Clapper, and Brennan are scrambling for their lives
to DEFLECT all their illegal activities back to Trump.

It's just not working Schwab - but it IS making a mess of the country.

You are acting like someone that was lied to. Attacking me. Attacking everyone conducting legal oversight of the President. Making excuses. It won't change the facts of Trump's behavior. The end does not justify the means. Whether Trump faces punishment for his crimes doesn't change the fact that he did them. Attacking me may make you feel better, but reality is reality.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cubsfan on October 09, 2019, 08:10:32 AM
I was lied to Schwab - by you, it's all in the thread.

Just call me a patriot - as when the facts come out - and the hoax has been revealed and crumbling - I support the President
and NOT the CRIMINALS who executed the hoax.

Meanwhile, you just double down on madness.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on October 09, 2019, 08:12:07 AM
This is so deranged Schwab - it's too funny actually.

Your President Trump, is the MOST scrutinized US President EVER - from Day 1 - and NOTHING so far.

You must just love CNN and MSNBC, where the REAL criminals, McCabe, Clapper, and Brennan are scrambling for their lives
to DEFLECT all their illegal activities back to Trump.

It's just not working Schwab - but it IS making a mess of the country.

You are acting like someone that was lied to. Attacking me. Attacking everyone conducting legal oversight of the President. Making excuses. It won't change the facts of Trump's behavior. The end does not justify the means. Whether Trump faces punishment for his crimes doesn't change the fact that he did them. Attacking me may make you feel better, but reality is reality.

Whatever you believe, its hard to see how after so many swings and misses, the same overtly partisan people will be taken serious; in other words have a major backfire with the American people, purely on optics. Impeachment should be clear cut. And Trumps given them a bit to work with. And yet you still have the optics of Schiff orchestrating behind the scenes and then lying about it, and now a whistleblower who is working with a prominent Democrat and for a 2020 Dem candidate. These idiots really can't do better than this? There is a reason Pelosi is refusing to hold an official vote...As legitimate as the case may be, this comes off as a coup, especially since "impeachment" has so boisterously been the objective of 99% of them since day 1. Again, this is their own doing and because of their own actions that they've seemingly backed themselves into a corner even when they may have a legitimate case now...
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: LC on October 09, 2019, 08:36:06 AM
Quote
Impeachment should be clear cut

Right, like using your political influence (and threatening to withhold payments) to instruct other countries to investigate your political rival.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on October 09, 2019, 08:48:47 AM
Quote
Impeachment should be clear cut

Right, like using your political influence (and threatening to withhold payments) to instruct other countries to investigate your political rival.

So i guess presidential candidates are off limits as far as corruption investigations go... unless you’re a republican.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: RuleNumberOne on October 09, 2019, 09:01:22 AM
Schwab711,

There are "campaign finance crimes in front of the whole country" everyday:
 - promising student debt writeoff if you mail them a $25 check every month.
 - promising medical debt writeoff if you mail them a $25 check every month.
 - promising free education if you mail them a $25 check every month.
 - promising free healthcare if you mail them a $25 check every month.
 - promising $200 extra per month for sitting on your ass (whether in diners or in front of the TV at home) if you mail them a $25 check every month.
- promising universal pre-K if you mail them a $25 check every month.

"It's sad you can't admit it."

Trump is the last politician to hire the whistleblower. Trump was almost certainly aware (at least certainly should have been aware) of the whistleblower's work experience. Trump hired them anyway.

Trump committed crimes and admitted to them. There is no amount of excuses or fingerpointing that will change that. It doesn't make it a coup. Trump can take down as many people with him as he'd like, but he still admitted to campaign finance crimes in front of the whole country. It's sad you can't admit it.

There's always excuses and what-ifs. "But Trump is only being investigated because he did his crimes in public unlike past politicians". Yes, that is why he is being investigated again. Do whatever about Hunter, I don't care. Tarnish Joe Biden for his associations/COI, great. Bitch about Warren embellishing about being Indian because it's a family story she took to heart (with 23andMe, you'd think people might get this is a nothingburger).

Trump broke numerous laws and admitted to them over the years. Bragged about them. There's no amount of bullshit explaining or excusing that will change that. It's not a Dem conspiracy. There's no coup. He lies to you and you are too proud to admit you were deceived. All other discussion is pointless imo.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: LC on October 09, 2019, 09:07:52 AM
Quote
Impeachment should be clear cut

Right, like using your political influence (and threatening to withhold payments) to instruct other countries to investigate your political rival.

So i guess presidential candidates are off limits as far as corruption investigations go... unless you’re a republican.

Did I say that?
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Schwab711 on October 09, 2019, 09:30:16 AM
Schwab711,

There are "campaign finance crimes in front of the whole country" everyday:
 - promising student debt writeoff if you mail them a $25 check every month.
 - promising medical debt writeoff if you mail them a $25 check every month.
 - promising free education if you mail them a $25 check every month.
 - promising free healthcare if you mail them a $25 check every month.
 - promising $200 extra per month for sitting on your ass (whether in diners or in front of the TV at home) if you mail them a $25 check every month.
- promising universal pre-K if you mail them a $25 check every month.

"It's sad you can't admit it."


This makes no sense. I don't want to engage with it. Your tax math is wrong too. Half of social security is deductible and you are talking marginal rates when the point of the proposal is to raise effective rates. I don't even necessarily disagree with some of your stances but you are plain rude and do a terrible job arguing them. Your argument above can be obviously shown inconsistent.

I debate with cubsfan because I've always heard he is a great person irl and I disagree with his views on Trump alone. He is intellectually honest in general and there's mutual respect. That's a gap that can be bridged even if we never agree. I debate with gregmal because he's polite, very knowledgeable, and intellectually consistent. We disagree on a lot but I have learned a lot from him. Consider his rebuttal above. I vigorously disagree, but it's a tough point to defend against, right now. Its not just leaving it at "prior work", it's the focus on optics. That's the difference. He is a good competitor in debate. I get the opinion you just want me to think like you or I'm terrible, and that's not fun nor interesting.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: RuleNumberOne on October 09, 2019, 09:40:43 AM
You are a very sore loser. Your concession speech is very sore.

Schwab711,

There are "campaign finance crimes in front of the whole country" everyday:
 - promising student debt writeoff if you mail them a $25 check every month.
 - promising medical debt writeoff if you mail them a $25 check every month.
 - promising free education if you mail them a $25 check every month.
 - promising free healthcare if you mail them a $25 check every month.
 - promising $200 extra per month for sitting on your ass (whether in diners or in front of the TV at home) if you mail them a $25 check every month.
- promising universal pre-K if you mail them a $25 check every month.

"It's sad you can't admit it."


This makes no sense. I don't want to engage with it. Your tax math is wrong too. Half of social security is deductible and you are talking marginal rates when the point of the proposal is to raise effective rates. I don't even necessarily disagree with some of your stances but you are plain rude and do a terrible job arguing them. Your argument above can be obviously shown inconsistent.

I debate with cubsfan because I've always heard he is a great person irl and I disagree with his views on Trump alone. He is intellectually honest in general and there's mutual respect. That's a gap that can be bridged even if we never agree. I debate with gregmal because he's polite, very knowledgeable, and intellectually consistent. We disagree on a lot but I have learned a lot from him. Consider his rebuttal above. I vigorously disagree, but it's a tough point to defend against, right now. Its not just leaving it at "prior work", it's the focus on optics. That's the difference. He is a good competitor in debate. I get the opinion you just want me to think like you or I'm terrible, and that's not fun nor interesting.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 09, 2019, 09:48:49 AM

I debate with cubsfan because I've always heard he is a great person irl . . .

Not that Schwab was trying to out, me but . . .

I admit it. I said it. And more than once.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on October 09, 2019, 09:51:41 AM
You are a very sore loser. Your concession speech is very sore.

Schwab711,

There are "campaign finance crimes in front of the whole country" everyday:
 - promising student debt writeoff if you mail them a $25 check every month.
 - promising medical debt writeoff if you mail them a $25 check every month.
 - promising free education if you mail them a $25 check every month.
 - promising free healthcare if you mail them a $25 check every month.
 - promising $200 extra per month for sitting on your ass (whether in diners or in front of the TV at home) if you mail them a $25 check every month.
- promising universal pre-K if you mail them a $25 check every month.

"It's sad you can't admit it."


This makes no sense. I don't want to engage with it. Your tax math is wrong too. Half of social security is deductible and you are talking marginal rates when the point of the proposal is to raise effective rates. I don't even necessarily disagree with some of your stances but you are plain rude and do a terrible job arguing them. Your argument above can be obviously shown inconsistent.

I debate with cubsfan because I've always heard he is a great person irl and I disagree with his views on Trump alone. He is intellectually honest in general and there's mutual respect. That's a gap that can be bridged even if we never agree. I debate with gregmal because he's polite, very knowledgeable, and intellectually consistent. We disagree on a lot but I have learned a lot from him. Consider his rebuttal above. I vigorously disagree, but it's a tough point to defend against, right now. Its not just leaving it at "prior work", it's the focus on optics. That's the difference. He is a good competitor in debate. I get the opinion you just want me to think like you or I'm terrible, and that's not fun nor interesting.

This sounds like the debate approach of somebody else you seem to detest....

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1102661631568461824?lang=en
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cubsfan on October 09, 2019, 10:56:10 AM

I debate with cubsfan because I've always heard he is a great person irl . . .

Not that Schwab was trying to out, me but . . .

I admit it. I said it. And more than once.

Ok, ok - you guys have me right where you want me...  I'll apologize and try to turn the rhetoric down.
Not easy on a politics thread.  As long as we are all trying to be intellectually honest - that is what really matters.
Debate is an important way to get there, but I understand the flaming doesn't help.

I know RTF well and respect him a ton. Schwab, I see his passion and can't help but admire it - and when Gregmal vouches for him - well, what can I say.
Even my nemesis, LC, said the most brilliant thing last month "I'm sure over a couple of pints, we'd all get along famously" - so true.

I'm sure we all care about our country and the direction it is headed - and the truth is very hard to find these days.

Ok - sincerely appreciate the thoughts. I'll try once again to be a better citizen of CoBF.



Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: LC on October 09, 2019, 12:16:28 PM
Quote
Even my nemesis, LC, said the most brilliant thing last month "I'm sure over a couple of pints, we'd all get along famously" - so true.
I meant it, too!
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 09, 2019, 12:41:25 PM

I debate with cubsfan because I've always heard he is a great person irl . . .

Not that Schwab was trying to out, me but . . .

I admit it. I said it. And more than once.

Ok, ok - you guys have me right where you want me...  I'll apologize and try to turn the rhetoric down.
Not easy on a politics thread.  As long as we are all trying to be intellectually honest - that is what really matters.
Debate is an important way to get there, but I understand the flaming doesn't help.

I know RTF well and respect him a ton. Schwab, I see his passion and can't help but admire it - and when Gregmal vouches for him - well, what can I say.
Even my nemesis, LC, said the most brilliant thing last month "I'm sure over a couple of pints, we'd all get along famously" - so true.

I'm sure we all care about our country and the direction it is headed - and the truth is very hard to find these days.

Ok - sincerely appreciate the thoughts. I'll try once again to be a better citizen of CoBF.

Now that the heat has been turned down a bit, I'll admit that I have been saying nice things about cubs fan behind his back, and I did so openly and with no shame, contrary to what I jokingly implied. I did probably say "he's a great guy" rather than person though if we want to be really acurate, and I acknowledge I am confident I am not Schwab's only source for that information.

I also know Schwab personally. I know he is an accomplished financial analyst and tries sincerely to bring the same kind of rigor to any research and analysis he does including in the political realm.

Cubs, thank you for the kind words and thank you for directing us to what's most important when you said:

Quote
I'm sure we all care about our country and the direction it is headed - and the truth is very hard to find these days.

Ok - sincerely appreciate the thoughts. I'll try once again to be a better citizen of CoBF.

I'm sure we all can agree with these words regardless of any biases or beliefs.

And for our international board members, they too may be affected by what is going on in the US, or may be affected by similar issues in their own countries or regions.

Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: meiroy on October 09, 2019, 06:07:21 PM

Is it me or did Fox News start to slowly turn against Trump?

https://twitter.com/BretBaier/status/1182054428314132481

"Tonight on #SpecialReport-- new
@foxnewspoll
 on #impeachment shows 51% of those polled favor impeachment and removal from office. #FoxNews"


Another step forward.  They could have easily fixed the number in his favor as they have done before.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on October 09, 2019, 06:20:33 PM
We've all seen "the polls" before...I remember when everyone was sooooo certain Hillary's double digit lead guaranteed her the WH.

If the sentiment lasts then I guess no one has to worry about Trump getting re-elected next year...start selling all your stocks now!
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: RuleNumberOne on October 09, 2019, 08:02:03 PM
That is how they attract independents to Fox. Fox will be the only one with balanced coverage watched by independent voters.


Is it me or did Fox News start to slowly turn against Trump?

https://twitter.com/BretBaier/status/1182054428314132481

"Tonight on #SpecialReport-- new
@foxnewspoll
 on #impeachment shows 51% of those polled favor impeachment and removal from office. #FoxNews"


Another step forward.  They could have easily fixed the number in his favor as they have done before.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: meiroy on October 09, 2019, 09:55:22 PM
We've all seen "the polls" before...I remember when everyone was sooooo certain Hillary's double digit lead guaranteed her the WH.

If the sentiment lasts then I guess no one has to worry about Trump getting re-elected next year...start selling all your stocks now!

You missed the whole point here. The fact that Fox chose to publish a number over 50% might have some significance in the context of what I wrote. Still early to tell.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 10, 2019, 06:47:17 AM
I think "sleepy" Joe may have just rope-a-doped Donald Trump:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaHa1tdjvLw

Joe Biden does a good job of looking like the least worst Democratic candidate. If Biden can keep putting in performances like this not only will he be the candidate for the Democratic ticket, but I think he will handily beat Trump, if it's a fair fight.

It's actually a somber moment when a former Vice-President makes such horrible accusations against a sitting President.

I stand by my previous comments that I hope the GOP will throw Trump overboard quickly and put forward a candidate with a better chance. The time limits for the GOP to put forward a better candidate are more practical and not some fast approaching statutory time deadline. They have many months for someone to throw there hat in the ring even from a practical standpoint, but I sincerely believe the sooner the better for them. Every month after December that they put it off probably makes it a bit harder for them.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 10, 2019, 07:19:57 AM
The Ukraine scandal may have been much broader and deeper. Giuliani and Perry may have been acting to put pressure on Ukraine to help his business buddies (including buddies born in Russia) make a profit in Ukraine's natural gas market.

https://apnews.com/d7440cffba4940f5b85cd3dfa3500fb2

After reading this news, I think we need to know what was in those phone calls with Putin. Much of the dispute over Ukraine stems from Russia's natural gas interests.

Also, since the President is making false claims about corruption involving a natural gas company against Biden, I think this link might be helpful to understanding the situation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

The two Soviet born clowns (rumored to be ) behind the take over plot of the Ukrainian state national gas company were just arrested. This could get REALLY bad for the Trump administration and associates if this line of inquiry holds water.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/10/politics/guliani-client-arrested-campaign-finance/index.html

Edit: Here's the indictment:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/10/politics/read-indictment-giuliani-associates-arrested-campaign-finance/index.html

They are likely charging them for the lowest crime, and biding time while working up to the greater crimes and hoping to build a case against their superiors and getting them to flip on their associates. Three other individuals are accused in the indictment, with two others named in the indictment, who apparently have not yet been arrested. One foreign actor is identified but not named in the indictment.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 10, 2019, 07:25:40 AM
We've all seen "the polls" before...I remember when everyone was sooooo certain Hillary's double digit lead guaranteed her the WH.

If the sentiment lasts then I guess no one has to worry about Trump getting re-elected next year...start selling all your stocks now!

You missed the whole point here. The fact that Fox chose to publish a number over 50% might have some significance in the context of what I wrote. Still early to tell.

Trump responds by tweeting "they suck" and "Fox News doesn't deliver anymore":

Quote
“From the day I announced I was running for President, I have NEVER had a good @FoxNews Poll. Whoever their Pollster is, they suck,” the president said in a series of tweets Thursday morning. “But @FoxNews is also much different than it used to be in the good old days.”

and

Quote
“@FoxNews doesn’t deliver for US anymore,” Trump concluded on Thursday. “It is so different than it used to be. Oh well, I’m President!”
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cubsfan on October 10, 2019, 07:30:31 AM
We've all seen "the polls" before...I remember when everyone was sooooo certain Hillary's double digit lead guaranteed her the WH.

If the sentiment lasts then I guess no one has to worry about Trump getting re-elected next year...start selling all your stocks now!

You missed the whole point here. The fact that Fox chose to publish a number over 50% might have some significance in the context of what I wrote. Still early to tell.

No doubt the media is fueling the impeachment frenzy - my bet is, just as in 2016, there is a silent majority (more vocal now) that will not
stand for this over throw of a US President unfairly.

Almost all the polls were disastrously wrong in 2016 - witness the NYT that gave Trump a 10% chance of winning the night before the election.
Many polls were in the 20% range. Today - many, many more Americans know how dishonest the media is - and just vote their true feeling at the
ballot box.

Trump has consistently turn out THOUSANDS at his frequent campaign rallies - and has now captivated many Americans.
IF I see this attendance at the rallies go down significantly - I would be really worried.

I'll stack up his rallies against polls any day - we'll know pretty soon. The rallies might even get bigger know that people are furious
at the effort to overthrow the government.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cubsfan on October 10, 2019, 07:41:38 AM
I stand by my previous comments that I hope the GOP will throw Trump overboard quickly and put forward a candidate with a better chance.

I think you may be out of touch with mainstream America.

The 2016 election was about Americans NOT TRUSTING politicians any longer - NONE of them - Republican or Democrat.
This is why a populist/outsider was elected.

Americans asked themselves "Are we any better off today than we were before?" - politicians make promises that they do NOT intend to keep.
Washington DC is broken.  The 2016 election was about change and putting someone in charge that will break the DC stranglehold and keep promises.

It does NOT matter who the Republicans put up for a candidate: The LEFT will seek to DESTROY that candidate regardless.
Put up a black, like Herman Cain - they will destroy him. Put up a woman like Palin - they will destroy her. Put up a decent, clean, foright guy like Bush -
he'll be destroyed.   

It does NOT matter who the Republicans nominate: The LEFT does not compromise - and the LEFT is in charge of the Democratic Party.

Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on October 10, 2019, 07:44:31 AM
I stand by my previous comments that I hope the GOP will throw Trump overboard quickly and put forward a candidate with a better chance.

I think you may be out of touch with mainstream America.

The 2016 election was about Americans NOT TRUSTING politicians any longer - NONE of them - Republican or Democrat.
This is why a populist/outsider was elected.

Americans asked themselves "Are we any better off today than we were before?" - politicians make promises that they do NOT intend to keep.
Washington DC is broken.  The 2016 election was about change and putting someone in charge that will break the DC stranglehold and keep promises.

It does NOT matter who the Republicans put up for a candidate: The LEFT will seek to DESTROY that candidate regardless.
Put up a black, like Herman Cain - they will destroy him. Put up a woman like Palin - they will destroy her. Put up a decent, clean, foright guy like Bush -
he'll be destroyed.   

It does NOT matter who the Republicans nominate: The LEFT does not compromise - and the LEFT is in charge of the Democratic Party.

Its funny how many Democrats Ive heard say, I would have been fine with Romney.... both during Obama term 2 and in relation to Trump...to which I'm always like "well fucktard, you had that chance and if you recall, totally demonized the guy"...you reap what you sow.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: LC on October 10, 2019, 07:50:17 AM
Quote
Trump has consistently turn out THOUSANDS at his frequent campaign rallies - and has now captivated many Americans.
Ah yes the manufactured rallies? I wouldn't be surprised if the screen actors guild mandates a portion of those paid attendee positions go to union-members :D

Quote
Americans asked themselves "Are we any better off today than we were before?" - politicians make promises that they do NOT intend to keep.
Washington DC is broken.  The 2016 election was about change and putting someone in charge that will break the DC stranglehold and keep promises.

And it failed. The swamp is full and Trump is committing all the same sins of previous politicians, if not more.

Oh wait, it turns out the "outsider" who has been connected to politics all his life and ran for office of the President isn't so much of an "outsider" as an "insider"? Color me shocked.  ::)
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cubsfan on October 10, 2019, 07:50:34 AM
That exactly right Gregmal - McCain AND Romney refused to FIGHT on the Democrats terms. "Please don't call me a racist, please!"

Trump IS a fighter - and they cannot stand that they can't control him. Shit, the Republicans can't stand it either.

The average American can figure this one out - and as IMPERFECT as Donald Trump is - they TRUST him more than any lying DC politician.

They elected someone to fight FOR THEM.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 10, 2019, 07:55:09 AM
The Ukraine scandal may have been much broader and deeper. Giuliani and Perry may have been acting to put pressure on Ukraine to help his business buddies (including buddies born in Russia) make a profit in Ukraine's natural gas market.

https://apnews.com/d7440cffba4940f5b85cd3dfa3500fb2

After reading this news, I think we need to know what was in those phone calls with Putin. Much of the dispute over Ukraine stems from Russia's natural gas interests.

Also, since the President is making false claims about corruption involving a natural gas company against Biden, I think this link might be helpful to understanding the situation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

The two Soviet born clowns (rumored to be ) behind the take over plot of the Ukrainian state national gas company were just arrested. This could get REALLY bad for the Trump administration and associates if this line of inquiry holds water.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/10/politics/guliani-client-arrested-campaign-finance/index.html

Edit: Here's the indictment:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/10/politics/read-indictment-giuliani-associates-arrested-campaign-finance/index.html

They are likely charging them for the lowest crime, and biding time while working up to the greater crimes and hoping to build a case against their superiors and getting them to flip on their associates. Three other individuals are accused in the indictment, with two others named in the indictment, who apparently have not yet been arrested. One foreign actor is identified but not named in the indictment.

I just finished reading the entire indictment and it looks as though these guys weren't just trying to help Rudy create or dig up dirt on Biden (if CNN is correct in its reporting), and they weren't just paying donations to try to get the Trump administration to help them take over Ukrainian gas corp, they were also bribing Nevada politicians to get in the marijuana business in Nevada.

Russian/Soviet mafia-state cockroach theory in action.

So this whole administration could be brought down because these two guys couldn't engage in just one criminal conspiracy at once! Do Russian mob guys like to sing, or do the have some kind of omertà?

Also interesting that the other two named conspirators have not been arrested. Perhaps they have already been cooperating?
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 10, 2019, 08:14:12 AM
Here's a good summary if you don't have time to read the entire indictment:

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/10/rudy-giuliani-ukraine-associates-indicted-043873

Here's a sample:

Quote
Two foreign-born associates of President Donald Trump's personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, were among those indicted on campaign finance charges made public on Thursday over alleged schemes to buy political influence on behalf of a Ukrainian government official and a Russian businessman.

Some of the charges against the two men, Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman, stem from alleged activities related to their work with Giuliani, including a successful effort to have the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, Marie Yovanovitch, removed from her post.

According to the indictment, Parnas and Fruman agitated for her removal at the behest of an unnamed Ukrainian government official, and hid the source of political donations they made in order to further that goal.

The indictment also alleges that Parnas, Fruman and two other U.S. citizens participated in a separate scheme to use political donations to obtain licenses for a planned marijuana venture. The ultimate source of the political donations, according to the indictment, was an unnamed Russian businessman.

The ultimate source of funds for these schemes was an unnamed Russian business man.

Could it be this man? I think I found him:

https://preview.redd.it/kyimm9j72tl31.png?width=471&auto=webp&s=8cb4fb637f8832ce046dc78d32a2d04c55ff5dda
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 10, 2019, 12:49:11 PM
It's going to be hard for Giuliani to claim he doesn't know these two (one of Trump's previous defenses), because he had lunch with them immediately before the went to the airport and were arrested because they were leaving the country on one-way tickets.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/465256-suspects-arrested-on-campaign-finance-charges-after-having-lunch-with

If I were a coconspirator, it would make me a bit nervous that the government had been sitting on the indictment and did not plan to reveal the indictment, but it become necessary when they tried to leave the country.

If I were these two gentlemen, I would be worried about the precedent of Jeffrey Epstein. Who was the last man who went to jail with knowledge that could have implicated Trump in serious crimes. Epstein's information would likely have been much more damaging, but still a chilling precedent for these two. Hopefully they will be watched 24 hours a day for their own safety.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Cardboard on October 10, 2019, 01:33:19 PM
I have seen quite a few people experience TDS but, for you, the amount of posting, and time spent on lately it is on a completely different scale.

If Trump is not impeached, then removed from office, I think that you will do a depression.

Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Schwab711 on October 10, 2019, 01:47:11 PM
It's going to be hard for Giuliani to claim he doesn't know these two (one of Trump's previous defenses)

Tough is right. Giuliani's lawyer admitted that these guys assisted Giuliani in representing Trump last week.
https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1181299742980132870


Rep Sessions' role (not related to AG Sessions):
https://twitter.com/nycsouthpaw/status/1182300870928715779
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 10, 2019, 01:59:12 PM
It's going to be hard for Giuliani to claim he doesn't know these two (one of Trump's previous defenses)

Tough is right. Giuliani's lawyer admitted that these guys assisted Giuliani in representing Trump last week.
https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1181299742980132870


Rep Sessions' role (not related to AG Sessions):
https://twitter.com/nycsouthpaw/status/1182300870928715779

There is mounting evidence that candidate-2 may be Kevin McCarthy.

Kevin McCarthy the ranking member in the House. That could explain his eagerness to go on the talking circuit when almost no one else would. He might have had non-obvious motivations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zpIGFBfQi8
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cubsfan on October 10, 2019, 02:05:18 PM
Sounds like you guys are onto another "bombshell" - the count must be up to 20 or 30 now - with nothing to show?

Keep feeding that impeachment beast. It's the only way the Democrats can win anymore. The agenda sure can't do it.

Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cubsfan on October 10, 2019, 04:21:05 PM
https://nypost.com/2019/10/02/adam-schiff-knew-about-whistleblowers-complaint-before-it-was-filed-report/

LOL. These idiots just cant keep the threads from eventually unraveling. As we suspected, a scam orchestrated by the libtards...

So Adam Schiff colluded with the Whistleblower to file his complaint?   

https://thefederalist.com/2019/10/02/breaking-anti-trump-whistleblower-colluded-with-house-democrats-before-filing-complaint/

I really am shocked.

Damn - it just get worse for the Democrats - now it looks like whistleblower was not only a registered Democrat coached by Adam Schiff -
but he/she was also had a relationship with one of the Democratic Presidential Candidates.

You can't make this stuff up, it's so sleazy.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/whistleblower-had-professional-tie-to-2020-democratic-candidate

Under questioning from Republicans during last Friday's impeachment inquiry interview with Atkinson, the inspector general revealed that the whistleblower's possible bias was not that he was simply a registered Democrat. It was that he had a significant tie to one of the Democratic presidential candidates currently vying to challenge President Trump in next year's election.

"The IG said [the whistleblower] worked or had some type of professional relationship with one of the Democratic candidates," said one person with knowledge of what was said.


You could not write a better script that this - no wonder Biden wants to impeach Trump:

https://www.dailywire.com/news/breaking-cia-whistleblower-worked-with-democrat-joe-biden

Nah... no anti-Trump bias there...
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on October 10, 2019, 04:46:37 PM
https://nypost.com/2019/10/02/adam-schiff-knew-about-whistleblowers-complaint-before-it-was-filed-report/

LOL. These idiots just cant keep the threads from eventually unraveling. As we suspected, a scam orchestrated by the libtards...

So Adam Schiff colluded with the Whistleblower to file his complaint?   

https://thefederalist.com/2019/10/02/breaking-anti-trump-whistleblower-colluded-with-house-democrats-before-filing-complaint/

I really am shocked.

Damn - it just get worse for the Democrats - now it looks like whistleblower was not only a registered Democrat coached by Adam Schiff -
but he/she was also had a relationship with one of the Democratic Presidential Candidates.

You can't make this stuff up, it's so sleazy.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/whistleblower-had-professional-tie-to-2020-democratic-candidate

Under questioning from Republicans during last Friday's impeachment inquiry interview with Atkinson, the inspector general revealed that the whistleblower's possible bias was not that he was simply a registered Democrat. It was that he had a significant tie to one of the Democratic presidential candidates currently vying to challenge President Trump in next year's election.

"The IG said [the whistleblower] worked or had some type of professional relationship with one of the Democratic candidates," said one person with knowledge of what was said.


You could not write a better script that this - no wonder Biden wants to impeach Trump:

https://www.dailywire.com/news/breaking-cia-whistleblower-worked-with-democrat-joe-biden

Nah... no anti-Trump bias there...

I've been saying it forever, but these people are quite possibly the biggest idiots you could ask for. It would take a great deal of work, and even then, Im not quite sure it would be possible to come up with such stupid "strategy" on a consistent basis. Ill be the first to admit Trump is certainly not a genius, but he's playing checkers and these fools are barely playing tic tac toe with big retard chalk on the driveway.

Oh yea, I can't find any trace of this news on CNN for some reason...I doubt it is a deliberate attempt to manipulate the masses and control the narrative. Nah, TRUMP PRESIDENCY IN JEOPARDY BECAUSE OF TIES TO GIULIANI is certainly a more pressing subject... as is EXPLORING THE QUEER APPEAL OF ELIZABETH WARREN....
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on October 10, 2019, 08:12:14 PM
So as more details come out that really start to throw this definitively into the “Another hoax” category, I have a couple questions. If this guy has an “arguable bias”, wha exactly would be needed for it to be an unarguable bias? Would he need to be caught ripping off a face mask Mission Impossible style and revealing himself to be none other than Ukraine Joe himself? If he didn’t have a bias, why approach Pencilneck Schiff, one of the most partisan lefties on the planet, ahead of time? Why not use any number of lawyers, rather than one known as a “mega Democrat”? I think the opinion piece I posted from a former intelligence official hit the nail on the head here, pretty much from day 1. It was just another orchestrated scheme and the presentation was a dead giveaway.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: meiroy on October 11, 2019, 02:23:35 AM

Is it me or did Fox News start to slowly turn against Trump?

https://twitter.com/BretBaier/status/1182054428314132481

"Tonight on #SpecialReport-- new
@foxnewspoll
 on #impeachment shows 51% of those polled favor impeachment and removal from office. #FoxNews"


Another step forward.  They could have easily fixed the number in his favor as they have done before.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/10/us/politics/fox-news-poll-trump-impeachment.html

"Attorney General William P. Barr met privately Wednesday evening with Rupert Murdoch, the media mogul who is one of President Trump’s frequent confidants but whose Fox News is viewed by the president as more hostile toward him than it used to be."
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 11, 2019, 04:05:31 AM

Is it me or did Fox News start to slowly turn against Trump?

https://twitter.com/BretBaier/status/1182054428314132481

"Tonight on #SpecialReport-- new
@foxnewspoll
 on #impeachment shows 51% of those polled favor impeachment and removal from office. #FoxNews"


Another step forward.  They could have easily fixed the number in his favor as they have done before.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/10/us/politics/fox-news-poll-trump-impeachment.html

"Attorney General William P. Barr met privately Wednesday evening with Rupert Murdoch, the media mogul who is one of President Trump’s frequent confidants but whose Fox News is viewed by the president as more hostile toward him than it used to be."

The conservative market is starting to split. Fox News needs to attract the widest market they can in order to remain viable. A lean online operation can work with a very narrow audience, but that won't work for Fox News and their overhead. I don't think Rupert is running Fox News as a loss leader or out of the goodness of his heart . 28% or more of Republicans supporting impeachment is going to make it very difficult for them to continue to parrot lies put out by the Trump administration or the Trump campaign.

https://theweek.com/speedreads/870332/brutal-new-poll-shows-3-10-republicans-support-trump-impeachment-push

The gap between what Fox News is doing and what all other large reputable networks are doing is growing so large that the gap alone probably poses an existential threat to Fox News. Rupert is smart enough to know that he can't let a small gap open. He was absolutely brilliant in the way that he gained a foothold in the US broadcast market, and I am sure he hasn't forgotten the lesson that he taught the networks. Today there is so much competition through different channels it must be even more important to not provide an opening to competitors.

Does anyone have guess as to what Fox's breaking point is? Certainly 51% would be too much to tolerate, but my guess is that the bar is much lower. It might even be that the bar is as low as 30% of Republicans supporting impeachment would create an existential threat if they do not change their relationship with Trump. 28% and rising rapidly is definitely enough to create crisis.

A final issue is that Fox may be concerned about legal risk in repeating the lies of the President or in broadcasting dishonest campaign ads. Does anyone have a sense of whether it might put Fox in increased legal jeopardy if they are broadcasting things that all other major networks refuse to broadcast?

It seems like the other networks are moving rapidly to combat the unprecedented falsehoods. They are legally separate and operate under different names, but Rupert's has news brands all over the world and he might be concerned about about repetitional risks to his other franchises. If Fox does not change their practices, they could be left as the only US outlet functioning as a megaphone for disinformation. Even if that is not a legal risk to Fox, what is the repetitional risk to Fox?

Here are two new conservative outlets that just launched in the past couple of days. Personally, I am MUCH more interested in what they have to say than Fox. Based on their start, I would highly recommend them.

https://thedispatch.com

https://thebulwark.com/trumps-fake-war-on-corruption-is-actually-a-real-war-on-joe-biden/

Also, I came across this humorous, and likely accurate piece from the right leaning publication "The Week":

https://theweek.com/articles/870864/joe-biden-only-conservative-running-president

Is the right starting to show a different type of split with Trump compared to the past? Thoughts?
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on October 11, 2019, 05:38:54 AM
https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-whistleblower-may-not-testify-in-person-11570738009

LOL no wonder this coward, and the clown Democrats are trying so hard to hide this guy's identity. Its all a farce and they know the only way to keep it from completely blowing up is to keep hiding.

I really hope somebody outs this guy and lets him deal with his own mess. He's already given Trump all he needs. Now the narrative is "Sleepy Joe, and his failing campaign, losing ground to socialists like Elizabeth Warren, desperately had one of his friends from the corrupt Obama administration make up a totally false claim about a perfectly legal and friendly conversation I had with President Zelensky of Ukraine". This shit is so predictable.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 12, 2019, 09:38:27 AM
George Conway was a Republican on the short list for Solicitor General and Assistant Attorney General in the Trump administration.

George Conway from the Atlantic on October 3:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/10/george-conway-trump-unfit-office/599128/

I like the fact that George Conway takes several established frameworks and goes through the analysis very methodically. It is nice to see a well structured logical argument that is free of name calling and profanity.

Plus the article includes many links to primary source materials that he references. It's a real walk down memory lane.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on October 12, 2019, 06:26:08 PM

Is it me or did Fox News start to slowly turn against Trump?

https://twitter.com/BretBaier/status/1182054428314132481

"Tonight on #SpecialReport-- new
@foxnewspoll
 on #impeachment shows 51% of those polled favor impeachment and removal from office. #FoxNews"


Another step forward.  They could have easily fixed the number in his favor as they have done before.

Whoops!

https://nypost.com/2019/10/12/fox-news-pollster-braun-research-misrepresented-impeachment-poll-analysis/

Like I said, regardless of where you stand, you really can't trust any of these clowns anymore. Eventually this will cause a major problem(if it hasn't already) in the US for all people. People just don't know what's real anymore and the media(plus politicians) are clearly at fault.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: cwericb on October 13, 2019, 06:28:12 AM

I agree 100%.

It is getting very concerning. It is becoming even more serious when you look at the ‘advances’ in manipulating video so that now you can make someone appear to be saying something they have not said.

For years we have relied on the press to expose corruption and misdeeds. Left, right or whatever, society should be very concerned about where this is going to lead.

 
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 13, 2019, 07:01:30 AM

Is it me or did Fox News start to slowly turn against Trump?

https://twitter.com/BretBaier/status/1182054428314132481

"Tonight on #SpecialReport-- new
@foxnewspoll
 on #impeachment shows 51% of those polled favor impeachment and removal from office. #FoxNews"


Another step forward.  They could have easily fixed the number in his favor as they have done before.

Whoops!

https://nypost.com/2019/10/12/fox-news-pollster-braun-research-misrepresented-impeachment-poll-analysis/

Like I said, regardless of where you stand, you really can't trust any of these clowns anymore. Eventually this will cause a major problem(if it hasn't already) in the US for all people. People just don't know what's real anymore and the media(plus politicians) are clearly at fault.

I would no more quote the NYPost than I would the National Enquirer. In terms of survey methodology, the NYPost methodology seems more suspect than the original Fox poll. The NY Post methodology seems to assume that the percentage of Democrats, Independents, and Republicans is a known number or at least that Gallup Polling is better, whereas in fact we have to estimate that through polls. If the poll was well conducted, it could be a sign that people are switching their party affiliation or even that Gallup is a misestimation.

At best the criticism is that the Fox News poll would be more accurate if combined with the results from other polls. That might be a good exercise, but it is also not the same methodology and should be clearly differentiated.

If you want aggregated the results from multiple polls because you believe that can get you a better estimate, then I would suggest fivethirtyeight.com. 538's aggregated number is that 49.3% support impeachment. Not that different from Fox's 51% estimate and likely well within the margin of error. A word of caution though, 538's aggregated number includes many older polls and therefore likely underestimates the rapid rise in support for impeachment.

Edit: Here's a link to the 538 impeachment watch:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/do-americans-support-impeaching-president-trump/?ex_cid=rrpromo

Note that they are only displaying data since the Ukraine scandal because support for impeachment jumped much higher after the scandal broke.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Cardboard on October 13, 2019, 08:43:08 AM
"I would no more quote the NYPost than I would the National Enquirer. In terms of survey methodology, the NYPost methodology seems more suspect than the original Fox poll."

I see a trend by Read the Footnotes or dismiss anything that does not fit his narrative. Don't even quote it!

Same mistake was made during the last election as Trump could not possibly win according to more "respected" polls. See how that turned out?
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on October 13, 2019, 09:10:36 AM
I am aware of The Post's shortcomings. However I do have a line with what I'll spend time with, and The Post does, at least if you go online, have an adequate sampling of the relevant ongoings of the world in a wide variety of topics, which I like. Its also got great sports coverage. Yahoo News isn't terrible either as it grabs stuff from everywhere. Fox, CNN, MSNBC, I check regularly, but just cant spend much time there as its skewed intentionally to be manipulative rather than just let one know what is happening in the world. And again, I'm not just referring to politics.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: RuleNumberOne on October 13, 2019, 09:11:14 AM
The NYPost with its coverage of Hunter Biden's corruption, has acquired more credibility than the NYT.

The NYT is populated by writers who spread the dishonest data put out by Lying Liz. Lying Liz who hired dishonest researchers to prepare the crooked data.

Read the Footnotes has such a giant appetite for writing, he should look into starting his own far-left newspaper and putting the NYT out of business.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 13, 2019, 09:41:57 AM
I am aware of The Post's shortcomings. However I do have a line with what I'll spend time with, and The Post does, at least if you go online, have an adequate sampling of the relevant ongoings of the world in a wide variety of topics, which I like. Its also got great sports coverage. Yahoo News isn't terrible either as it grabs stuff from everywhere. Fox, CNN, MSNBC, I check regularly, but just cant spend much time there as its skewed intentionally to be manipulative rather than just let one know what is happening in the world. And again, I'm not just referring to politics.
Gregmal, thanks for your mature and respectful response.

I admit that I have engaged in reading the Post, but I consider it a guilty pleasure. I personally wouldn't cite the NYPost as a reputable source of information. Supposedly impartial ratings groups actually rate Fox, CNN, MSNBC as being less biased and closer to being primary information than NYPost. Check out any of the media bias charts for one easy and quick reference point.

Wikipedia may be a questionable source, but I would certainly rank it higher than NYPost. Wikipedia says the following about NYPost:

Quote
The Post has been criticized since the beginning of Murdoch's ownership for sensationalism, blatant advocacy, and conservative bias. In 1980, the Columbia Journalism Review stated "New York Post is no longer merely a journalistic problem. It is a social problem – a force for evil."

Perhaps the most serious allegation against the Post is that it is willing to contort its news coverage to suit Murdoch's business needs, in particular that the paper has avoided reporting anything that is unflattering to the government of the People's Republic of China, where Murdoch has invested heavily in satellite television. Although, it has recently allowed criticism of the People's Republic of China and it's handling of the Hong Kong protests.

In The New Yorker, Ken Auletta writes that Murdoch "doesn’t hesitate to use the Post to belittle his business opponents". He goes on to say that Murdoch's support for Edward I. Koch while he was running for mayor of New York "spilled over onto the news pages of the Post, with the paper regularly publishing glowing stories about Koch and sometimes savage accounts of his four primary opponents."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Post

To both interject some fun and to highlight the fact that the New York Post is a tabloid, I suggest the following search for your amusement:

https://www.google.com/search?rls=en&q=new+york+post+worst+headlines&tbm=isch&source=univ&client=safari&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiRtNyj1pnlAhXFY98KHccNCi8QsAR6BAgJEAE&biw=1202&bih=714
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Gregmal on October 13, 2019, 10:25:19 AM
True, but for me a lot of it is probably(after a tiny bit of thought) the formatting as well. They have 4-6 top stories and then just categories where its 4-5 stories under each, typically being the most relevant at the moment, and occasionally, yes, most gossipy or clickbaitish. But I'd find it more appealing to scroll through an entire log of different subjects with the highlighted subjects equally presented than have to deal with Fox or CNN where they cram as much political nonsense into the first 75% of their feed. Heck even if I go to CNN sports, they still dont stop. I still get "Why NBA coach keeps calling out Trump" and I'm like, fuck, I just want to know what the Devils did last night or who's the game 4 starter for the Yankees.

https://www.foxnews.com

https://www.cnn.com

https://nypost.com


Check it out and see what I mean. I'd rather scroll through the occasional "Who's Miley Hooking Up With Now" headline versus 70,000 different reiterations of political bullshit.
Title: Re: The President, bribery, and Ukraine
Post by: Read the Footnotes on October 15, 2019, 03:25:23 AM
John Bolton was reportedly so concerned by the Ukraine call that he told aides to contact the White House lawyers.

https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/465790-bolton-told-ex-trump-aide-to-call-white-house-lawyers-about

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bolton-instructed-former-russia-adviser-to-talk-to-nsc-lawyer-over-ukraine

Trump's disinformation campaign's narrative that the only person with an was some misguided deep state low-level hack is going to be hard to maintain, especially if Bolton testifies to Congress. Bolton is a Republican, a political appointee and was the National Security Advisor.

It will be interesting to watch Trump attack and try to discredit Bolton. Any guesses as to what nickname he will get?