Author Topic: This is the Left  (Read 2085 times)

Cardboard

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Re: This is the Left
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2018, 06:10:32 PM »
Oh yeah, Kanye West is now no longer a black man. He is the rich guy living the high life with Trump and Kim Kardashian.

But, LeBron James is smart. So eloquent... One of ours of course!

I wonder what went into some people mind when Prem Watsa pulled out all his hedges after Trump's election?

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rb

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Re: This is the Left
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2018, 06:15:57 PM »
That he pretended he found a face saving way to get out of a bad investment strategy that lost his shareholders loads of money.

Zorrofan

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Re: This is the Left
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2018, 07:37:33 AM »
This is an example of what I'm talking about. How is this remotely acceptable? What has happened to society?

https://twitter.com/TheSilentLOUD/status/1052502026637234176

« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 07:41:06 AM by Zorrofan »

tooskinneejs

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Re: This is the Left
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2018, 07:54:46 AM »
There are plenty of places to argue about politics on the internet.  Why, oh why, does CoBF have to be one of them?  No one is convincing anyone else to change their mind and, instead, we're now sowing division among board members.

Sanjeev - It's completely up to you, but if I had a vote I'd vote to get rid of all of the political stuff on this board.

ajc

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Re: This is the Left
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2018, 09:25:41 AM »


There are plenty of places to argue about politics on the internet.  Why, oh why, does CoBF have to be one of them?  No one is convincing anyone else to change their mind and, instead, we're now sowing division among board members.

Sanjeev - It's completely up to you, but if I had a vote I'd vote to get rid of all of the political stuff on this board.



I'd go a little further and say if politics isn't banned from the forum, except where it's narrowly being discussed as it relates to a specific investment case, it'll probably end up destroying the board.
I think Sanjeev needs to decide what COBF's business is, then stick to it. There's nothing wrong with directing forum members to a reputable politics board and telling them to go there for that.

What you said about bad blood is also on point. Furthermore, that'll spill on to the rest of the threads in all probability.
Right now, the politics section has already overtaken the books section in terms of post numbers. The books section has been around for 7 years and the politics part has been around for 1.
Imagine a bunch of investors who have fewer insights to share about coming-up-on-a-decade's-worth of interesting books they've read, than over a single year of partisan politics.

Beyond that, at the current rate the politics section will have more posts than either the Berkshire Hathaway section or the Fairfax Financial section, in less than 5 years.
On a board called 'The Corner of Berkshire and Fairfax'. It really is amusing.
In ten years, politics will easily outweigh both of those sections combined.
Value investor's haven, something, something.
If politics starts becoming an ever more important and substantial part of COBF's overall conversation, it'll clearly kill the goose.
And the thing is you likely won't know until it's too late, because the sharper members will leave quietly while the blaring BS of the politics posters drowns out everything and makes it seem like you've got an engaged board.

Make no mistake, this is probably the biggest current risk to the future of COBF.
Any idiot can see that, unless they've got their head buried in the sand.
And once you get your reputation as a partisan, political dumpster fire of a discussion board, how the hell do you get it back to one where you're seen as a respectable, intelligent place for focused investors to share their stock ideas and discuss things reasonably.
In my opinion it needs to be stepped on quickly, and really fucking hard. I think that's obvious.
This forum should have no place for that bullshit.

I now expect to hear every excuse in the book from politicoholics of all stripes as to why what's clear isn't actually the case....



Gregmal

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Re: This is the Left
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2018, 11:53:57 AM »


There are plenty of places to argue about politics on the internet.  Why, oh why, does CoBF have to be one of them?  No one is convincing anyone else to change their mind and, instead, we're now sowing division among board members.

Sanjeev - It's completely up to you, but if I had a vote I'd vote to get rid of all of the political stuff on this board.



I'd go a little further and say if politics isn't banned from the forum, except where it's narrowly being discussed as it relates to a specific investment case, it'll probably end up destroying the board.
I think Sanjeev needs to decide what COBF's business is, then stick to it. There's nothing wrong with directing forum members to a reputable politics board and telling them to go there for that.

What you said about bad blood is also on point. Furthermore, that'll spill on to the rest of the threads in all probability.
Right now, the politics section has already overtaken the books section in terms of post numbers. The books section has been around for 7 years and the politics part has been around for 1.
Imagine a bunch of investors who have fewer insights to share about coming-up-on-a-decade's-worth of interesting books they've read, than over a single year of partisan politics.

Beyond that, at the current rate the politics section will have more posts than either the Berkshire Hathaway section or the Fairfax Financial section, in less than 5 years.
On a board called 'The Corner of Berkshire and Fairfax'. It really is amusing.
In ten years, politics will easily outweigh both of those sections combined.
Value investor's haven, something, something.
If politics starts becoming an ever more important and substantial part of COBF's overall conversation, it'll clearly kill the goose.
And the thing is you likely won't know until it's too late, because the sharper members will leave quietly while the blaring BS of the politics posters drowns out everything and makes it seem like you've got an engaged board.

Make no mistake, this is probably the biggest current risk to the future of COBF.
Any idiot can see that, unless they've got their head buried in the sand.
And once you get your reputation as a partisan, political dumpster fire of a discussion board, how the hell do you get it back to one where you're seen as a respectable, intelligent place for focused investors to share their stock ideas and discuss things reasonably.
In my opinion it needs to be stepped on quickly, and really fucking hard. I think that's obvious.
This forum should have no place for that bullshit.

I now expect to hear every excuse in the book from politicoholics of all stripes as to why what's clear isn't actually the case....

I don't disagree, and while I talk politics a lot, I wouldn't care if it were gone. But the problem isn't politics. It's people being unable to debate or discuss without getting butthurt and then carrying ill will into other threads/topics. Sanjeev and I disagree on quite a bit politically. Yet we've been able to discuss other topics neutrally and objectively. The same can not be said for most here.

Parsad

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Re: This is the Left
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2018, 12:37:44 PM »
Make no mistake, this is probably the biggest current risk to the future of COBF.
Any idiot can see that, unless they've got their head buried in the sand.
And once you get your reputation as a partisan, political dumpster fire of a discussion board, how the hell do you get it back to one where you're seen as a respectable, intelligent place for focused investors to share their stock ideas and discuss things reasonably.
In my opinion it needs to be stepped on quickly, and really fucking hard. I think that's obvious.
This forum should have no place for that bullshit.


There's been dozens of cries of the death of COBF for years...yet it hasn't happened.  What could kill it is if politics permeates all of the other boards and then we have a Yahoo like message board. 

So you have a choice...either pay me for my time to remove each political post on 6 boards, or you continue to enjoy a free service where I only have to monitor one board with my time.  You can't have a free service where you get exactly what you want and don't have to pay for the time spent maintaining and building it...show me something that works that way. 

And unfortunately, value investors are the cheapest segment of the investing community...they aren't going to pay a dollar if they can find a way to get it for free...and kudos to them for doing so, but it limits what we can do as a free service!  And frankly, I would prefer to keep it free so that there is never an excuse for anyone not being able to enjoy the posts, ideas, discussions, etc.  Cheers!   
No man is a failure who has friends!

ajc

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Re: This is the Left
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2018, 05:20:37 PM »

@Sanjeev

Ha. First things first. I was being an ungrateful dumb-ass for not thanking you for what you've created and sustained. It was always implied, but it's better stated.

That said, I disagree with a couple things. First, the argument that Athens or Rome will always have an empire because they've won every war until now is a bad one. Second, the fact that politics is now a highly prominent, and the quickest growing, large section on COBF signals immediately to any browsing non-members that partisan bickering is acceptable behavior and increases the likelihood that people who join in future will be the type who are looking for that.

Since folks love quoting Munger constantly, I'll join in the fun and say 'people who make it easy to steal in a company are committing a sin'.
Why? Because others will see the theft, realize it's acceptable, and do it themselves. Eventually, you end up with many thieves, the culture rots from the inside, and breaks down.
Partisan bickering is, to my mind, exactly the same if we're in the business of rational, respectful discussion.
By giving that kind of talk (and let's be honest, that type of engagement is 90% what the politics section is about) such prominence, it is in effect saying 'we're okay with this kind of discussion here'.

Better, I think, to put everyone on notice that this type of conversation has no place anywhere on COBF and if need be carry out a couple of public decapitations to make yourself heard. Hopefully that won't be necessary, but it sure would get the point across that this is genuinely a value investors haven where people are right to have high expectations of each other and where our discussions should reflect that 98% of the time.

Anyway... I'm happy agreeing to disagree, I realize you're also far busier these days, but I think this stuff is allowing a big part of the board to drag itself around in the conversational gutter without any sense of shame or responsibility to the rest of the COBF community and I think it's also wishful thinking to expect this won't encourage more sensible members to question its overall value, or to assume it'll discourage lurkers with the same bad habits to not want to join when they see all that's happening.
As Bezos (or is it Buffett) says, you end up attracting the kind of shareholders you invite in through your words and actions.
Eternal vigilance is the price paid for that.

I'm completely with you on your analysis of the payment situation, however I think removing the politics section and sanctioning anyone who makes COBF about politics except as it might in some way influence some fractional part of an investment thesis, will shrink the board but reinforce the idea that COBF is a value investing hub for more serious people who want to discuss investments the same way Buffett, Graham, Klarman, Fisher, etc, always did and do.
It's something a person knows when they see it, and 90% of the politics board is clearly the opposite and literally an ever-growing dumpster fire of trolling, bad-faith discussion, and divisiveness. I mean, I can't find a way to conclude how the overall EV of that is hugely positive instead of obviously negative. In other words, why stick with a losing bet that's only getting worse.

Anyway, I think it'd be simpler to pull off than you think and would just require a notice to move the politics discussion to somewhere else on the web and at most, one or two public executions for anyone stupid enough to try and continue their foolish quest to drag the board down.
Finally, to your complete credit, you've done a noteworthy job with COBF over the years and I see little indication of that changing.


@Gregmal

I respect you saying that. I also agree halfway with your views. The other half though is in an almost entirely self-regulated community, it's incumbent on the adults in the room to set the tone they'd want if any role were reversed. We've all gotta be that since there're no gamekeepers. To me, that means deciding what conversation sections and styles are productive and which aren't, and when some area is clearly toxic it's incumbent on each of us to be restrained and disciplined enough to walk away and actively discourage participation in those threads, as well as their growth. That won't happen automatically. All you need is ten or twenty people to go off the reservation this way, heads fully in the punchbowl, and you can destroy an entire ethos. We've all seen this happen in various business catastrophes across the public markets.
In the end, we're all part curators of COBF and the quality control and integrity of the platform is only as good as the worst few members.

As I said above, the ultimate cost to the whole community isn't worth it. So really, the trick is not just to remain dispassionate but also for each of us to have the discipline and maturity to not engage at all, as well as to actively disincentivize this stuff. If everyone on COBF did that, there'd be minimal issues and nothing but a focused, high quality investing forum. That doesn't happen though unless everyone pulls in the right direction. Unfortunately, I think those who've been engaging on the politics forums have far more often than not, been dragging the whole reputation of COBF down while actively being damn selfish towards those who want it to be a wholly high quality place and nothing less. Bottom line is, COBF needs far more people on those threads right now to look in the mirror and start refusing to participate on those threads because we all know they're currently not truly there trying to reach a humble understanding.

Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox but I think those who've done this ahead of the wider COBF investment community interest over the last year have definitely damaged the character and reputation of the board in a tangible way and it'll only get worse for as long as it goes unchecked.
Nothing happens in a vacuum. All the pieces matter.

My 2 cents worth.






*walks away muttering under his breath*



Gregmal

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Re: This is the Left
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2018, 05:48:29 PM »
Is there a way to make certain sections of the forum private? If so I'd say put everything non investment idea into a premium section and charge something nominal like $50 a year to use it. I'd certainly pay that to keep making Liberty, Dougie, and the mob look silly. Just kidding... Kind of...

ajc

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Re: This is the Left
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2018, 03:05:06 AM »


Is there a way to make certain sections of the forum private? If so I'd say put everything non investment idea into a premium section and charge something nominal like $50 a year to use it. I'd certainly pay that to keep making Liberty, Dougie, and the mob look silly. Just kidding... Kind of...



Ha. Fair enough.
Anyway, maybe I'm being too serious and need to go take my meds.

On the other hand, I find it funny that folks will talk about the major 'coarsening of discourse' problem in politics today, but then gladly go over to COBF and coarsen the discourse in the way these threads do.
There are a hundred ways to mangle a culture of discourse, many of them subtle, and the entire politics section is basically one big case study in that.
None of that could've happened without every individual participating.

I mean, I get the free speech and wider social discussion angle, but where's the upside for COBF. Unless the discussion there can be administratively monitored constantly so it's kept on point and sensible (which it clearly can't), then how is it adding value. At the same time, it seems pretty clear to me that there's a real risk to the board culture on the downside.
To go back to the coarsening point, it says something that people wanna claim this type of talk will erode democratic norms and negatively impact the quality of our lives and democracy at the presidential and national level, while at the same time logging onto COBF and coarsening the conversational ethos but saying it won't spill over or have any wider impact.
Just on the face of it, it looks like bullshit. Yet, there's a whole group of folks on the forum who've taken it upon themselves to run that risk and if it eventually doesn't work out then we'll all be the ones who pay the price. I'm not sure 'assholes' is a strong enough term to describe them.

Whatever, maybe I'm full of it. I do think though that COBF does investing pretty darn well, all things considered. Given what we've seen over twelve months with the growth and type of talk on the politics section, I can't for the life of me see how it improves things and can easily see how it might have a strongly negative impact.
I guess I'm saying if retaining what you love and what you're good at, requires you to surgically remove something that's engaging but vastly toxic, then what are we waiting for.
Honestly, I'm a little surprised there even needs to be an argument about it. That just goes to show you how quickly it has turned into an obsession and a battleground that people refuse to let go of.
Talk about some pitiful, sunk-cost nonsense.

It's a little like some people who develop an addiction to a certain, unproductive way of interacting. It'd be unsurprising to see them then attempt all kinds of mental gymnastics in order to retain whatever crap they've become so heavily invested in. You see it time and time again in investing, yet none of them can recognize it when they're doing it themselves.
Coddling that kind of thing does no-one any good.
Be vigilant, harsh if necessary, and stamp it out, is the only way you fix it.

I'm shutting up now. I've said what needed to be said. There's way less upside than people think, and the downside risk is being underestimated.