Author Topic: POLL - Trump's Behavior  (Read 3887 times)

Schwab711

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Re: POLL - Trump's Behavior
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2017, 11:13:47 AM »
I don't see where Trump has done anything illegal and removing a president from office for anything but breaking the law is illegal. With that said, I think Trump's behavior and style while in office thus far has been a complete embarrassment to the country. The President is the leader of the entire country including the citizens who didn't vote for him. The divisive language has not place coming from the Whitehouse. His behavior probably has a lot more to do with his reelection than being removed from office. I think the voters who supported him fell into one of three camps:

1. Traditional conservatives who vote based on fiscal policy or values. These voters probably didn't support Trump in the primary, but held their noses during the general election because they didn't want to see a democrat in office.

2. Independents who wanted to see a change in Washington. They saw Trump as something different, he could breaking the mold and get something done for the people. These are the people who may have voted for Obama in 2008.     

3. Nationalists or those who want to conserve the white male majority in this country. These were the people who really helped him win the primary.

Trump's behavior seems to be measured to make sure he keeps Group 3 satisfied (ie. the response to the NYC attack vs Charlottesville). I think this same behavior is alienating more moderate Republicans in group 1 and those hoping for a positive change in group 2. I'm don't think he can win a second term unless he starts appealing to more of the people who elected him.

I think you are completely wrong.  Group 3 is so small as to be almost non-existent (at least from a voting block perspective).  I don't vote, but know many Trump supporters and none of them are racist or sexists or supremisists of any stripe.   How many nazis, kkk members, or overt racists do you know?  I'd suspect very few if any, because very few exist.  1 & 2 are why he won (#1 being the largest group).  Very few wanted Hillary to be president and that had nothing to do with her gender, but with her specifically.

The number of folks wearing robes and hoods is a tiny population.

The number of folks that sympathize and prefer the ideas of nationalists as opposed to a democrat is very large. This is the divide that IC is saying that Russia took advantage of and tried to enhance. Breitbart is the #6 online media outlet. They put globes around the name of most jewish folks they write articles about. Why can't folks take ownership of what they read and support? After all the calls of fake news or MSM, when do folks take a look at the authors they read?
https://www.buzzfeed.com/josephbernstein/heres-how-breitbart-and-milo-smuggled-white-nationalism?utm_term=.uggBo3zgJ#.ofP9VRmo0

I think Ross is pretty spot on. If all of the monday morning QB reviews of the election, demo data, polls, ect were made into a venn diagram, Ross's answer would be one of several in the center.


I also think this thread is another example of TDS.

In prior threads, we learned that folks don't know why the SC exists, will use any semblance of evidence to discredit the entire probe - regardless of validity, don't care that Trump lied during the campaign, has enriched himself to a greater degree than any previous politician, and so on. All they care about is he is bullying folks they don't like. They don't know why they don't like these folks. They don't care that they are hurt by the bully as well. They don't care they are supporting tyrannical behavior and speech. They just like the bullying of democrats, because.

Notice that at no point am I questioning or criticizing anyone's beliefs on actual policy. I'm pointing out that many folks will enthusiastically trade everything to feel momentary happiness. TDS is like a drug addiction. People support Trump because it makes them feel good, consequences to themselves and others be damned!

Here's the ST consequences of Trump's behavior:
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/453055/donald-trump-bergdahl-comments-soldier-pass

In the LT, since we've ignored emoluments clause, theoretically Zuckerburg could be CEO of FB and POTUS and we have precedent now to allow it. We now have precedent that allows a democrat POTUS, being investigated by the FBI, to fire the investigator and scorch earth the entire justice system. I'm sure these precedents will never be abused by anyone other than Trump in the future.

But yes, I think creating a poll about an extremely narrow hypothetical situation, that relies on ideal assumptions, is super instructive. Thanks for starting this!

Edit: I should add, I'm not saying that I think people here or R's in general are supportive of all these nationalist ideas. I'm trying to point out that the insulation of right-wing thought has led to folks supporting the proverbial 'yellow dog' over any democrat. That is not healthy. It exists on the left as well, but in no way to the same degree.  Obviously you can't prove this stuff, but that's what I'm getting at.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 11:26:52 AM by Schwab711 »


cobafdek

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Re: POLL - Trump's Behavior
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2017, 11:22:55 AM »
I don't see where Trump has done anything illegal and removing a president from office for anything but breaking the law is illegal.

This may not be correct.  Gerald Ford famously said that "An impeachable offense is whatever a majority of the House of Representatives considers it to be at a given moment in history."   The standard is not settled.

His behavior probably has a lot more to do with his reelection than being removed from office.

Thanks for bringing it up.  I intended my poll question to be about re-election, but I see that the original wording sounds more like "Should he be impeached for his style and behavior?"  Therefore, I've fine tuned the wording to cover primarily re-election, but if impeachment is in the reader's mind, that's ok, too.

Everybody feel free to change one's vote if the original wording was too narrow.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 11:25:53 AM by cobafdek »

cobafdek

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Re: POLL - Trump's Behavior
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2017, 11:46:39 AM »
People support Trump because it makes them feel good, consequences to themselves and others be damned!

Maybe, but I doubt it.  As I stated before in the other threads,  Trump is all about results.  He is future-oriented.  His ethics is consequentialist, to a fault (in other words, it could be criticized as "The ends justify the means.")  He wants good consequences for Team America.  So do his supporters.

I would re-word your statement as "People support Trump because they want good consequences, a better future, for themselves, family, and country.  Conventional social norms be damned!  We're not letting historical etiquette stand in the way!"
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 12:25:44 PM by cobafdek »

Gregmal

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Re: POLL - Trump's Behavior
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2017, 11:51:04 AM »
I don't see where Trump has done anything illegal and removing a president from office for anything but breaking the law is illegal. With that said, I think Trump's behavior and style while in office thus far has been a complete embarrassment to the country. The President is the leader of the entire country including the citizens who didn't vote for him. The divisive language has not place coming from the Whitehouse. His behavior probably has a lot more to do with his reelection than being removed from office. I think the voters who supported him fell into one of three camps:

1. Traditional conservatives who vote based on fiscal policy or values. These voters probably didn't support Trump in the primary, but held their noses during the general election because they didn't want to see a democrat in office.

2. Independents who wanted to see a change in Washington. They saw Trump as something different, he could breaking the mold and get something done for the people. These are the people who may have voted for Obama in 2008.     

3. Nationalists or those who want to conserve the white male majority in this country. These were the people who really helped him win the primary.

Trump's behavior seems to be measured to make sure he keeps Group 3 satisfied (ie. the response to the NYC attack vs Charlottesville). I think this same behavior is alienating more moderate Republicans in group 1 and those hoping for a positive change in group 2. I'm don't think he can win a second term unless he starts appealing to more of the people who elected him.

I think you are completely wrong.  Group 3 is so small as to be almost non-existent (at least from a voting block perspective).  I don't vote, but know many Trump supporters and none of them are racist or sexists or supremisists of any stripe.   How many nazis, kkk members, or overt racists do you know?  I'd suspect very few if any, because very few exist.  1 & 2 are why he won (#1 being the largest group).  Very few wanted Hillary to be president and that had nothing to do with her gender, but with her specifically.

The number of folks wearing robes and hoods is a tiny population.

The number of folks that sympathize and prefer the ideas of nationalists as opposed to a democrat is very large. This is the divide that IC is saying that Russia took advantage of and tried to enhance. Breitbart is the #6 online media outlet. They put globes around the name of most jewish folks they write articles about. Why can't folks take ownership of what they read and support? After all the calls of fake news or MSM, when do folks take a look at the authors they read?
https://www.buzzfeed.com/josephbernstein/heres-how-breitbart-and-milo-smuggled-white-nationalism?utm_term=.uggBo3zgJ#.ofP9VRmo0

I think Ross is pretty spot on. If all of the monday morning QB reviews of the election, demo data, polls, ect were made into a venn diagram, Ross's answer would be one of several in the center.


I also think this thread is another example of TDS.

In prior threads, we learned that folks don't know why the SC exists, will use any semblance of evidence to discredit the entire probe - regardless of validity, don't care that Trump lied during the campaign, has enriched himself to a greater degree than any previous politician, and so on. All they care about is he is bullying folks they don't like. They don't know why they don't like these folks. They don't care that they are hurt by the bully as well. They don't care they are supporting tyrannical behavior and speech. They just like the bullying of democrats, because.

Notice that at no point am I questioning or criticizing anyone's beliefs on actual policy. I'm pointing out that many folks will enthusiastically trade everything to feel momentary happiness. TDS is like a drug addiction. People support Trump because it makes them feel good, consequences to themselves and others be damned!

Here's the ST consequences of Trump's behavior:
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/453055/donald-trump-bergdahl-comments-soldier-pass

In the LT, since we've ignored emoluments clause, theoretically Zuckerburg could be CEO of FB and POTUS and we have precedent now to allow it. We now have precedent that allows a democrat POTUS, being investigated by the FBI, to fire the investigator and scorch earth the entire justice system. I'm sure these precedents will never be abused by anyone other than Trump in the future.

But yes, I think creating a poll about an extremely narrow hypothetical situation, that relies on ideal assumptions, is super instructive. Thanks for starting this!

I think the bold part is accurate. For me, no I don't care at all that he lied, or enriched himself(something I'd question given all the negativity his brands got, including some being completely dumped). Why? because I expect nothing less from our politicians; this has been the norm through most of US history. Over the past couple decades however, its gone from bad, to downright egregious. So the fact that we have another politician doing it, doesn't really bother me on either end. I mean there really has been no bigger example of this, possibly in the history of politics, than the Clintons. It's messed up, but it's kind of just what politicians do. This election became so polarizing because you had two candidates who stood for the polar opposites. Clinton was literally the definition of the corrupt establishment status quo. Meanwhile Trump was a rich douchebag who basically just made a mockery of the establishment.

So to me, I'm young. I have a family to look after. I don't want business crippled by regulation or myself personally to be taxed to death. I don't think handouts and all these welfare programs give people incentive to work. And I don't like being raped on healthcare to subsidize other people or be faced with massive taxes disguised as fines. That's what I would be looking at if Clinton was elected.

Trump's/Republicans economic agenda was probably the biggest thing for me. I've learned, that Presidents ultimately aren't THAT important. Buffett has said the same thing. We place so much significance on them while they are there, but America perseveres and adapts and pretty much always moves forward nonetheless. My gut says that Trump, whether intentionally or as a byproduct of his outrageousness will trigger change. He'll most likely be a one term president but the message to Washington will resonate. So if the likely end product is longer term tax reform and maybe something more productive with healthcare, and 10 years later a clown of a president to look back on and laugh; whatever. He may not be ideal, but he's certainly not the anti-Christ as many love to make him out to be. It's funny how outraged people were a guy like Dubya was president for two terms and oversaw the fake wars and economic meltdown; but a decade later get all warm and fuzzy as he cracks jokes with the Obamas. As bad as he was, guess what, America today is better than 10 years ago.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 11:52:37 AM by Gregmal »

LC

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Re: POLL - Trump's Behavior
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2017, 12:23:49 PM »
Maybe, but I doubt it.  As I stated before in the other threads,  Trump is all about results.  He is future-oriented.  His ethics is consequentialist, to a fault (in other words, it could be criticized as "The ends justify the means.")  He wants good consequences for Team America.  So do his supporters.

You keep making this claim but where is the evidence?
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cobafdek

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Re: POLL - Trump's Behavior
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2017, 12:48:06 PM »
Maybe, but I doubt it.  As I stated before in the other threads,  Trump is all about results.  He is future-oriented.  His ethics is consequentialist, to a fault (in other words, it could be criticized as "The ends justify the means.")  He wants good consequences for Team America.  So do his supporters.

You keep making this claim but where is the evidence?

From The Art of the Deal:
"My style of deal-making is quite simple and straightforward.  I aim very high, and then I just keep pushing and pushing to get what I'm after. Sometimes I settle for less than I sought, but in most cases I still end up with what I want."
"But my experience is that if you're fighting for something you believe in even if it means alienating some people along the way things usually work out for the best in the end."
"You can't con people, at least not for long.  You can create excitement, you can do wonderful promotion and get all kinds of press, and you can throw in a little hyperbole. But if you can't deliver the goods, people will eventually catch on."

As President, his catchphrase is Make America Great Again.

It's all oriented to the future goal.  Not a single past tense verb here.  Isn't this a typical businessman/entrepreneurial mindset?

LC

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Re: POLL - Trump's Behavior
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2017, 01:31:41 PM »
Quotes from his own ghost-written book do not constitute evidence.

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Ross812

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Re: POLL - Trump's Behavior
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2017, 01:39:42 PM »
I don't see where Trump has done anything illegal and removing a president from office for anything but breaking the law is illegal. With that said, I think Trump's behavior and style while in office thus far has been a complete embarrassment to the country. The President is the leader of the entire country including the citizens who didn't vote for him. The divisive language has not place coming from the Whitehouse. His behavior probably has a lot more to do with his reelection than being removed from office. I think the voters who supported him fell into one of three camps:

1. Traditional conservatives who vote based on fiscal policy or values. These voters probably didn't support Trump in the primary, but held their noses during the general election because they didn't want to see a democrat in office.

2. Independents who wanted to see a change in Washington. They saw Trump as something different, he could breaking the mold and get something done for the people. These are the people who may have voted for Obama in 2008.     

3. Nationalists or those who want to conserve the white male majority in this country. These were the people who really helped him win the primary.

Trump's behavior seems to be measured to make sure he keeps Group 3 satisfied (ie. the response to the NYC attack vs Charlottesville). I think this same behavior is alienating more moderate Republicans in group 1 and those hoping for a positive change in group 2. I'm don't think he can win a second term unless he starts appealing to more of the people who elected him.

I think you are completely wrong.  Group 3 is so small as to be almost non-existent (at least from a voting block perspective).  I don't vote, but know many Trump supporters and none of them are racist or sexists or supremisists of any stripe.   How many nazis, kkk members, or overt racists do you know?  I'd suspect very few if any, because very few exist.  1 & 2 are why he won (#1 being the largest group).  Very few wanted Hillary to be president and that had nothing to do with her gender, but with her specifically.

I agree the rasist, sexist, and sepremisist faction is a tiny minority, but his behavior seems to be catering to that group at the expense of group 1 that got him through the general election.  Trump has to review the facts and takes four days to decide how to respond when a Nazi drives into a crowd of people, but an immigration program is put on the chopping block the same day an immigrant drives into a crowd. I don't think group 3 is full of racists either; there are plenty of white men (who are not overtly racist) who feel disenfranchised in the american dream because a high school degree and hard work no longer assures success and latch on to immigrants as the scapegoat.     

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Schwab711

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Re: POLL - Trump's Behavior
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2017, 01:52:38 PM »
People support Trump because it makes them feel good, consequences to themselves and others be damned!

Maybe, but I doubt it.  As I stated before in the other threads,  Trump is all about results.  He is future-oriented.  His ethics is consequentialist, to a fault (in other words, it could be criticized as "The ends justify the means.")  He wants good consequences for Team America.  So do his supporters.

I would re-word your statement as "People support Trump because they want good consequences, a better future, for themselves, family, and country.  Conventional social norms be damned!  We're not letting historical etiquette stand in the way!"

Thanks for considering my posts in good faith. I agree with LC on the first part above. Not much more to add there.

The 2nd paragraph (general tone of Greg) are sentiments I can really appreciate. I think the large majority of the country, left, center, and right, very much feel this way!! I love this stuff.

I'm very worried about the damage we are doing, as a country, by allowing Trump to carry himself the way he is in the name of obtaining these end goals (I would feel this way of any POTUS or senior official doing this). Who knows, I could be chicken little as well. But this POTUS is certainly different (on purpose, according to many supporters I've talked to offline). The country was in a really bad spot with candidates in 2016. I just hope folks will consider delayed gratitude by searching for a better candidate to fight "establishment", "societal norms", "DC as usual" or whatever hard-to-define but know-it-when-you-see it ism. The legal damage Trump is doing day in and day out is my issue with all of this.

I think the above paragraph addresses Greg, for the most part. It's your last paragraph I worry about, though I understand your sentiment. Pre-election, I posted about how every prior POTUS was compared to Hitler. What a dangerous journalistic precedent! I think the trend there is improving but one journalist could kill any improvement at any point (similar to my Breitbart point - there's actually a fair amount of good boutique conservative media outlets at the moment). Now we have someone we are actually worried about but it's hard to convey the message. I get it.

cobafdek

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Re: POLL - Trump's Behavior
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2017, 02:06:39 PM »
Quotes from his own ghost-written book do not constitute evidence.

"I am a better investor than Buffett because it says so right here in my book."

Good sarcasm!  But to people not familiar about you on this message board, it might look like you're hallucinating a quote to oppose my actual quotes.  Be careful!