Author Topic: Trump aims to remove citizenship from American-born children of immigrants  (Read 3143 times)

hillfronter83

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Re: Trump aims to remove citizenship from American-born children of immigrants
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2018, 08:44:49 AM »
^It looks like the issue is not so clear cut.

The framers likely did not foresee the scope of illegal immigration and the rise of the welfare state.

Given customary and case law evolution, any restiction by statute would probably be deemed unconstitutional and require an additional amendment.

It would be possible for Congress to consider legislation over the naturalization process ("positive" legislation to clarify the naturalization process for children).

Common sense and historical context would also suggest that new legislation or constitutional amendment should avoid a retrospective effect on children already born.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R44251.pdf

Yet people are so sure that founding fathers meant AK47 or other weapons talking about "arms" in second amendment. What about nuclear weapons? Could they foresee such development in "arms" back in 18th century?


tengen

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Re: Trump aims to remove citizenship from American-born children of immigrants
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2018, 09:47:15 AM »
It specifically says the words foreigners and aliens in describing what is excluded

The sentence is "This [Citizenship] will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of embassadors [sic] or foreign ministers accredited to the United States, but will include every other class of persons."

It doesn't say that citizenship does not include persons born in the US whose parents are foreigners or aliens. It says that citizenship does not include persons who are innately foreigners or aliens by virtue of belonging to the families of accredited diplomats (as an example). The amendment itself mentions only "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States" as an additional qualifier.

By the way, I'm not arguing that the amendment is perfect and should not be changed.

JSArbitrage

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Re: Trump aims to remove citizenship from American-born children of immigrants
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2018, 12:58:35 PM »
^It looks like the issue is not so clear cut.

The framers likely did not foresee the scope of illegal immigration and the rise of the welfare state.

Given customary and case law evolution, any restiction by statute would probably be deemed unconstitutional and require an additional amendment.

It would be possible for Congress to consider legislation over the naturalization process ("positive" legislation to clarify the naturalization process for children).

Common sense and historical context would also suggest that new legislation or constitutional amendment should avoid a retrospective effect on children already born.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R44251.pdf

Did you read the entire article?  Unless I am misunderstanding - it was very clear.  The Rep from California demanded that children in CA born from non-citizen Chinese parents be given citizenship.  He said that's how it is handled today in CA and that is how this Amendment should handle it.  Some other Rep chimes in and makes fun of the Chinese and the Gypsies and the Rep comes back and makes fun of him for being anti-foreigner. 

It was actually a terrific read BTW.  It shows that the issues today are not new by any means.

watsa_is_a_randian_hero

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Re: Trump aims to remove citizenship from American-born children of immigrants
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2018, 01:04:32 PM »
It specifically says the words foreigners and aliens in describing what is excluded

But "It" isn't the constitution or the 14th amendment to the constitution, is it?

"it" is not.  But the 14th amendment says "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof".  And "it" is the congressional record giving contemporaneous context as to the the meaning of "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof".

ERICOPOLY

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Re: Trump aims to remove citizenship from American-born children of immigrants
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2018, 01:44:01 PM »
My parents were not citizens when I was born.  This could mean that I could lose my citizenship and not have to file US taxes if I move to Australia.  Interesting.

Cigarbutt

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Re: Trump aims to remove citizenship from American-born children of immigrants
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2018, 01:48:40 PM »
^It looks like the issue is not so clear cut.
...
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R44251.pdf
Did you read the entire article?  Unless I am misunderstanding - it was very clear.  The Rep from California demanded that children in CA born from non-citizen Chinese parents be given citizenship.  He said that's how it is handled today in CA and that is how this Amendment should handle it.  Some other Rep chimes in and makes fun of the Chinese and the Gypsies and the Rep comes back and makes fun of him for being anti-foreigner. 

It was actually a terrific read BTW.  It shows that the issues today are not new by any means.

Interesting, if it were so clear, could you explain how people within a certain section of the political spectrum can't simply agree on a simple yes or no answer for the basic question?
https://fedsoc.org/commentary/publications/birthright-citizenship-two-perspectives

And then, do you focus on the "sacred" and literal interpretation or do you account for the "unwritten" document?

Tough topic and I wonder if it is timely for discussion just before an election.

Gregmal

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Re: Trump aims to remove citizenship from American-born children of immigrants
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2018, 02:33:09 PM »
Does any find it odd and contradictory that:

The US taxes "citizens" who don't even live here, thus implying high cost(and therefore value) of being a citizen?

Yet, they let whoever from where ever just roam on in and plug into the system, free? Essentially implying a very low cost or value to being a citizen?

Looks to me as if the real citizens are just getting screwed.

LC

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Re: Trump aims to remove citizenship from American-born children of immigrants
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2018, 03:41:27 PM »

Interesting, if it were so clear, could you explain how people within a certain section of the political spectrum can't simply agree on a simple yes or no answer for the basic question?
https://fedsoc.org/commentary/publications/birthright-citizenship-two-perspectives

And then, do you focus on the "sacred" and literal interpretation or do you account for the "unwritten" document?

Tough topic and I wonder if it is timely for discussion just before an election.

The US government has granted US citizenship to people born within its borders for as long as I can remember. It is pretty clear what the interpretation has been.

I mean, I can "interpret" the 2nd amendment to mean that a grizzly bear owes me two of its legs.

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Yet, they let whoever from where ever just roam on in and plug into the system, free? Essentially implying a very low cost or value to being a citizen?
Think of it like a business. My guess is that, for a long time, the NPV of the marginal citizen was positive. So in that case, sign up as many as possible.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 03:46:17 PM by LC »
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Cigarbutt

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Re: Trump aims to remove citizenship from American-born children of immigrants
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2018, 05:06:14 PM »
The US government has granted US citizenship to people born within its borders for as long as I can remember. It is pretty clear what the interpretation has been.
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I see your point but just because something has been done a certain way for a certain time is not sufficient evidence to prohibit a re-evaluation just as the fact that the US is one of the few countries giving birthright citizenship means that it should stop.

The US happened to have an unusual concentration of wise men cooperating together during foundation. It is fair to say that they did not foresee all but likely felt that the US would become a magnet for spontaneous allegiance. The founding fathers though devised a balanced system, just in case the country becomes a victim of its own success. Clarity may remain an ideal and there will be murky periods but the best is yet to come.

ERICOPOLY

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Re: Trump aims to remove citizenship from American-born children of immigrants
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2018, 05:22:24 PM »
A couple of questions:

So what if both of your parents lose their citizenship because their parents were not citizens.  Do you then lose your citizenship too?

What if you are adopted and don't know who your parents are?  Do you lose your citizenship because you cannot prove otherwise?