Author Topic: Trump Derangement Syndrome  (Read 5836 times)

SharperDingaan

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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2017, 09:59:57 AM »
No, these are all examples of not playing the game.
The game setter is only useful as long as the game benefits enough of the 'right' people (ie: French and Russian Revolutions). Comes the day it doesn't, it's either time for a new game - or a new game master. New calculation.

Travel the world long enough, and you'll quickly observe that this is also the 'norm' - not the exception.
Ask any Russian.

SD

The game? These are examples of being a low quality individual.

What's your point? This doesn't make any of it any better. Are you preaching moral relativism?

Lying, even if common, is bad. Corruption, even if common, is bad. Sexual harassment, even if common, is bad. Tyranny, even if common, is bad. Torture, even if common, is bad. Racism, even if common, is bad.

The fact that we had slavery and genocide since forever doesn't make these things any more good or desirable. We should strive to do better (and we have, in the arc of time -- Violence and has been going down, democracy and freedom going up, poverty down, etc).

For the top 1-2% to get richer, the bottom 90% have to contribute.
The 'game' is just the systematic way of getting the 90% to contribute without argument, and it's typically the top 1-2% who set it. It has nothing to do with good or bad - it's purely about getting the contributions in the most business like manner. When the flows are disrupted, or no longer what they were, it's time for a change - a key message of the rules for rulers.

SD






« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 01:46:08 PM by SharperDingaan »


rukawa

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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2017, 11:30:12 AM »
what is the point of this?

To vent mostly. That is what this particular subforum is for :)

cobafdek

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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2017, 12:42:09 PM »
Can you provide some more explanation? I'm too dense to understand how you came to your individual conclusions in the original post.

1.  The writer firmly believes Trump is an absolute idiot.  Some events occur that indicate Trump may actually be savvy.  Cognitive dissonance is experiencing the tension between his beliefs and the new facts.  The easiest way out is to deny or minimize the new fact, because it is only one fact.  Longstanding beliefs are harder to give up.  But trying to minimize the new facts results in something crazy:  he's just "street" smart, which he believes is not really intelligence, but it is. 

2.  The writer presents a caricature of the virtue of loyalty.  Loyalty is imagined as an absolute.  But nobody in real life demands loyalty for loyalty's sake.  Even a mafia don wants effectiveness:  a loyal but ineffective capo gets whacked or demoted.  Trump is all about results (to a fault).  All of the people he's fired was because of lack of effectiveness, and each one knows it.  It was not because of refusing to kiss his ring.  (The technical explanation is that Trump's ethics are consequentialist.  The writer depicts loyalty in a non-consequentialist frame.  Many cognitive social scientists call this "everyday Kantianism," meaning loyalty is a categorical imperative, which they consider magical thinking.

3.  I'm having second thoughts about this one.  Sometimes psychosis and insight look exactly the same!

Liberty

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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2017, 01:35:04 PM »
2.  The writer presents a caricature of the virtue of loyalty.  Loyalty is imagined as an absolute.  But nobody in real life demands loyalty for loyalty's sake.  Even a mafia don wants effectiveness:  a loyal but ineffective capo gets whacked or demoted.  Trump is all about results (to a fault).  All of the people he's fired was because of lack of effectiveness, and each one knows it.  It was not because of refusing to kiss his ring.  (The technical explanation is that Trump's ethics are consequentialist.  The writer depicts loyalty in a non-consequentialist frame.  Many cognitive social scientists call this "everyday Kantianism," meaning loyalty is a categorical imperative, which they consider magical thinking.

Who's caricaturing now? That's not my position.

My position is that Trump makes a big deal of demanding absolute personal loyalty and punishing people who don't show it, but he himself has relatively little for others, and in return, I don't think most others have very deep loyalty for him (it's more opportunistic, to get a job or access to power). So when his guys end up sitting across from FBI agents in a prisoner's dilemma kind of situation, chances are that they'll think twice about sacrificing themselves to save a guy who's probably tweeting about how he didn't know them and they never mattered anyway, and will take the deal. This might be happening as we speak.

"Trump is all about results (to a fault)."

Trump is all about himself. I suspect a narcissistic personality type. It would explain the constant bragging, self-aggrandizing, habitual lying, and need for attention (narcissistic supply feeds these people, either positive or negative), and the constant blaming of everyone else and never admitting any wrongs. His lack of shame has helped him greatly, because most people who find themselves in the situations he's put himself in tend to recuse themselves.

Personally, I don't think Trump is an idiot. Probably around average intelligence, maybe a bit more. But I think his integrity is way below average and his ego off the charts. His curiosity seems very low, leading to poor general knowledge of things that aren't on TV.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 01:54:13 PM by Liberty »
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Schwab711

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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2017, 01:54:58 PM »
Cobafdek:
You posted this table last year before the election. Within context, you implied this was a rational way to view the candidates. Obviously we can't judge Hillary, but we can judge Trump. Lets see how Dear Leader is doing against expectations.

Lobbyists: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/06/21/president-donald-trump-lobbyists-hired/416749001/

Banks: He is pushing to repeal Dodd-Frank

Saudi: http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/29/politics/kushner-saudi-arabia-trip/index.html
http://www.newsweek.com/trump-did-not-stop-war-gulf-between-saudi-arabia-and-qatar-668987

Tax Policy: Current proposal is expected to be tax hikes for middle and lower class; tax cuts for wealthy

Taxing Rich: This was so transparent. See above

Russia: LOLOLOLOL! I'll never understand the rationalization of this shit.

China: He killed TPP; the US answer to Chinese exports. It was Trump "being tough on China" and definitely had nothing to do with Cronyism:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-13/kushners-set-to-get-400-million-from-chinese-on-marquee-tower

Cronyism: Emoluments, friends in cabinet, and his daughter and son-in-law are non-confirmed "advisers". I can keep going for a long time on this one.

TTIP: This is true. Trump does want to kill trade relations with our allies. No argument here.

Israel-Palestine: Complicated topic, lets skip for the moment.

Iran: Still on-going. However, the Libyan War was cited just a few months ago as the reason North Korea is a problem today (by Fox News and the like). Yet this table is asserting that Trump will (and presumably should?) do exactly that mistake? He is definitely trying to bully Iran and [potentially?] back out of a signed nuclear deal. "Bold move Cotton. Lets see how this plays out."


Trump's "Effective to a fault." Your posts are the TDS. It's poetic irony.

cobafdek

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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2017, 02:23:00 PM »
I'm shocked (shocked!) and disappointed when politicians don't live up to expectations.

The only results that count are MAGA and that the Forgotten Men and Women Are Forgotten No Longer.  Then most is forgiven. 

We have 3 (or 7) years to go.  It's not over yet.

By the way, you should send your post to Taleb for comments.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 02:37:47 PM by cobafdek »

Cigarbutt

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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2017, 02:56:31 PM »
What are the criteria that define the "forgotten man/woman"?
Why are "forgotten" ones inspired by Mr. Trump?

Want to learn.


LC

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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2017, 03:00:24 PM »
Some events occur that indicate Trump may actually be savvy. 


Trump is all about results (to a fault).  All of the people he's fired was because of lack of effectiveness, and each one knows it.


I'm shocked (shocked!) and disappointed when politicians don't live up to expectations.


We have 3 (or 7) years to go.  It's not over yet.

____
I guess where I was confused is because to me, you are exhibiting the same cognitive biases.

So you claim Trump is savvy. Trump is all about results.

But you acknowledge he is a disappointment (because he has not produced results?)

And then you move the yardstick to X years down the line?

Maybe I am misunderstanding.
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cobafdek

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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2017, 03:33:37 PM »
What are the criteria that define the "forgotten man/woman"?
Why are "forgotten" ones inspired by Mr. Trump?

Want to learn.

No objective criteria.  I think it's a subjective state of mind, but JD Vance's book Hillbilly Elegy may point the way.  The same for Making America Great Again.  How will we know when it is great again?  Only if it feels that way.

The genius (or idiocy, depending on your point of view) of Trump's rhetoric is that the terms are open-ended and non-partisan.  It's up to each person to decide what they mean, and whether he belongs in that category.  Enough voters felt qualified to be included in that category to make him President.

By this logic, if he is removed from office (losing election, or impeachment), you might conclude the forgotten men and women still felt forgotten.


LC

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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2017, 03:54:36 PM »
No objective criteria

How will we know when it is great again?  Only if it feels that way

____

These are the problems which create the cognitive biases you are complaining about.

Real progress is measurable.
"Lethargy bordering on sloth remains the cornerstone of our investment style."
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