Corner of Berkshire & Fairfax Message Board

General Category => Politics => Topic started by: cobafdek on November 01, 2017, 12:06:55 AM

Title: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on November 01, 2017, 12:06:55 AM
The topic on First Charges Filed in Mueller Case is a clinic on various manifestations of Trump Derangement Syndrome.  Paraphrasing writser's inscription:  when you are hallucinating, you do not know you are hallucinating.  It's only difficult and painful for others.

Case #1:
As stupid as Trump is, he's street smart enough like a mafia Don to insulate himself.
This is cognitive dissonance.

Case #2:
That's what will undo him eventually. He requires total loyalty, even to the point of claiming the sky is green and 2+2=5 (yes, his inauguration crowd was millions of people, the biggest ever!), but he has no loyalty for his people as soon as they aren't useful to him anymore. Almost everyone who was close to him except direct family has been dumped, or is even now getting attacked on Twitter.
This is magical thinking about loyalty.

Case #3:
Again, we just see a dead man walking - relying on the rules for rulers.

According to the pundits this is the best it gets for the republicans; 2018 is supposedly looking like a disaster, with 2019 and beyond even worse. Impeachment takes a long time, and the results are uncertain. However should the chump become a martyr? an awful lot of problems drop away; & the man has already prepared the ground by releasing the JFK files. The liability becomes an asset, the twitter feed finally goes silent, the 'family' establishes a lock on rulership. And 5 years on, maybe the first FEMALE US President ends up being a Trump?   

Enron, became Enron - in part because Ken Lay (Chairman) knew he was dying. When Enron finally blew he would either be gone, or close to it; others would be taking the fall, and he wouldn't be explaining anything. One has to wonder whether a version of the same thing isn't happening here - as almost all Dons know they will not be shuffling off as a result of old age.

Sadly it's also America, and this kind of solution has a long history.

SD
This is incoherence bordering on psychosis.

These are not examples of abnormal brains.  These are completely NORMAL cognitive behaviors, in otherwise highly intelligent people.

These examples support the thinking of evolutionary psychologists, who say the the human brain did not evolve to perceive objective reality.  We perceive according to patterns, according to bizarre frames of reference.  Our political and religious thinking do not prevent these guys and all of us from reproducing, becoming skillful and insightful investors, and otherwise succeeding in life. 
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Liberty on November 01, 2017, 06:26:29 AM
What is objective reality? Please do tell us as soon as you're done saying nothing (aside from badly parroting Scott Adams talking points) in the most condescending way possible.

No wait, your schtick is to say "people say conflicting things, how can we know? People who hate Trump are obviously hallucinating it all and the others are correct", right? This is the "different people see different movies playing" narrative, right? Or are you going a bit further into the "there's not objective reality! There are no facts, it's impossible to know anything, what does it matter, my beliefs are just as good as any, etc.."?

It's not like you could be the one rationalizing it all away with these rhetorical devices, right? I'm sure it's normal for presidents to have like 10+ of their close people leave in less than a year, a few for bumbling incompetence (Scaramuchi), many because they lied on security forms about meeting foreign agents offering dirt on political adversaries to try to change the course of an election (including their son and son in law, and now Papadopoulos who pled guilty)? I'm sure it's normal to be caught on tape bragging about sexual assault and have 16 women come out and confirm it. I'm sure it's normal to be on the record lying or saying things without evidence over and over again (he'll definitely release his tax returns, right? Obama tapped Trump tower, right? His businesses will be in a blind trust, right? The crowds at the inauguration were bigger than Obama's, right?), to fire the FBI chief after asking for a loyalty pledge when you learn he's investigating people around you, etc. It's also totally normal to have a US president jump to the defense of a foreign despot when someone says he's a killer by immediately putting down the US, around the same time he's calling NATO obsolete, or to basically be the only one to come to the defense of a Nazi/KKK rally where murder took place by pointing out that there were violent people on both sides (technically true, just like in WWII, but the message in context is clear), or to try to ban people from entering the country based on their religion, or to make pro-torture statements based on myths (general Pershing), or to publicly undermine their secretaries of state and call for IQ tests, or to have many staff get caught using private email servers after calling for an opponent to be jailed for doing so, I'm sure it's also normal for presidents to seem to get a large portion of their intelligence from cable news talk shows (he often parrots it back right after it airs), etc.

Anyway, enjoy your president, I'm sure you wish your level of humility, intelligence and integrity matched his. Exactly the kind of man you'd like to have your daughter marry, to paraphrase Buffett.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/statements/?list=speaker
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: SharperDingaan on November 01, 2017, 08:11:44 AM
No, these are all examples of not playing the game.
The game setter is only useful as long as the game benefits enough of the 'right' people. Comes the day it doesn't, it's either time for a new game - or a new game master. New calculation.

Travel the world long enough, and you'll quickly observe that this is also the 'norm' - not the exception.
Ask any Russian.

SD
 
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Liberty on November 01, 2017, 08:42:30 AM
No, these are all examples of not playing the game.
The game setter is only useful as long as the game benefits enough of the 'right' people (ie: French and Russian Revolutions). Comes the day it doesn't, it's either time for a new game - or a new game master. New calculation.

Travel the world long enough, and you'll quickly observe that this is also the 'norm' - not the exception.
Ask any Russian.

SD

The game? These are examples of being a low quality individual.

What's your point? This doesn't make any of it any better. Are you preaching moral relativism?

Lying, even if common, is bad. Corruption, even if common, is bad. Sexual harassment, even if common, is bad. Tyranny, even if common, is bad. Torture, even if common, is bad. Racism, even if common, is bad.

The fact that we had slavery and genocide since forever doesn't make these things any more good or desirable. We should strive to do better (and we have, in the arc of time -- Violence and has been going down, democracy and freedom going up, poverty down, etc).
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on November 01, 2017, 08:45:49 AM
Case #4:
What is objective reality? Please do tell us as soon as you're done saying nothing (aside from badly parroting Scott Adams talking points) in the most condescending way possible.

No wait, your schtick is to say "people say conflicting things, how can we know? People who hate Trump are obviously hallucinating it all and the others are correct", right? This is the "different people see different movies playing" narrative, right? Or are you going a bit further into the "there's not objective reality! There are no facts, it's impossible to know anything, what does it matter, my beliefs are just as good as any, etc.."?

It's not like you could be the one rationalizing it all away with these rhetorical devices, right? I'm sure it's normal for presidents to have like 10+ members of their close people leave in less than a year, a few for bumbling incompetence (Scaramuchi), many because they lied on security forms about meeting foreign agents offering dirt on political adversaries to try to change the course of an election (including their son and son in law, and now Papadopoulos who pled guilty)? I'm sure it's normal to be caught on tape bragging about sexual assault and have 16 women come out and confirm it. I'm sure it's normal to be on the record lying or saying things without evidence over and over again (he'll definitely release his tax returns, right? Obama tapped Trump tower, right? His businesses will be in a blind trust, right?), to fire the FBI chief after asking for a loyalty pledge when you learn he's investigating people around you, etc. It's also totally normal to have a US president jump to the defense of a foreign despot when someone says he's a killer by immediately putting down the US, around the same time he's calling NATO obsolete, or to basically be the only one to come to the defense of a Nazi/KKK rally by pointing out that there were violent people on both sides (technically true, just like in WWII, but the message in context is clear), or to try to ban people form entering the country based on their religion, or to make pro-torture statements based on myths (general Pershing), or to publicly undermine their secretaries of state and call for IQ tests, or to have many staff get caught using private email servers after calling for an opponent to be jailed for doing so, I'm sure it's also normal for presidents to seem to get a large portion of their intelligence from cable news talk shows (he often parrots it back right after it airs), etc.

Anyway, enjoy your president, I'm sure you wish your level of humility, intelligence and integrity matched his. Exactly the kind of man you'd like to have your daughter marry, to paraphrase Buffett.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/statements/?list=speaker
Triggered.  And doubling down.  Thanks for the additional example.

Also, confirmation bias working overtime.  Scott Adams?  I was channeling Rory Sutherland, and, I admit, badly.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Liberty on November 01, 2017, 08:54:38 AM
Case #4:

Triggered.  And doubling down.  Thanks for the additional example.

Also, confirmation bias working overtime.  Scott Adams?  I was channeling Rory Sutherland, and, I admit, badly.

More nothing. Zero substance, just rhetorical tricks ("if I act like I've won, some people will believe I'm smart and I've won" and "if I throw around words like triggered and cognitive bias and cognitive dissonance, surely people will read into it that I'm saying something clever").

Kind of like a con artist. Seems familiar these days...
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on November 01, 2017, 09:04:24 AM
Ask any Russian.

Funny you mention it.  You're probably way ahead of me.  I'm only a third of the way through Brothers Karamazov.  I may understand you better when I'm finished.  You're starting to make sense to me.  Thanks for your reply.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on November 01, 2017, 09:42:46 AM
Can you provide some more explanation? I'm too dense to understand how you came to your individual conclusions in the original post.

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on November 01, 2017, 09:46:03 AM
Where is this going?

Since Dostoievsky is mentioned, this thread reminds me of the plot in the play: Six characters in search of an author by Pirandello. Read that in 1985.
It's a play that you may like cobafdek, because it exploits the blur between illusion and reality.

Potential relevance to an investment thread discussion style and the present polarized environment:

One of the unique aspects of the play is that each participant fails to try to listen and understand others.

From a review:

"The play discusses the tragedy of modern man's failure to communicate. The real problem faced by the modern people is the lack of communication amidst them. In modern society each person has his or her solipsistic world within himself/herself."

We are all deranged to some degree, perhaps some more than others.

Can we, at least, give it a try?


Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: watsa_is_a_randian_hero on November 01, 2017, 09:57:30 AM
what is the point of this?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: SharperDingaan on November 01, 2017, 09:59:57 AM
No, these are all examples of not playing the game.
The game setter is only useful as long as the game benefits enough of the 'right' people (ie: French and Russian Revolutions). Comes the day it doesn't, it's either time for a new game - or a new game master. New calculation.

Travel the world long enough, and you'll quickly observe that this is also the 'norm' - not the exception.
Ask any Russian.

SD

The game? These are examples of being a low quality individual.

What's your point? This doesn't make any of it any better. Are you preaching moral relativism?

Lying, even if common, is bad. Corruption, even if common, is bad. Sexual harassment, even if common, is bad. Tyranny, even if common, is bad. Torture, even if common, is bad. Racism, even if common, is bad.

The fact that we had slavery and genocide since forever doesn't make these things any more good or desirable. We should strive to do better (and we have, in the arc of time -- Violence and has been going down, democracy and freedom going up, poverty down, etc).

For the top 1-2% to get richer, the bottom 90% have to contribute.
The 'game' is just the systematic way of getting the 90% to contribute without argument, and it's typically the top 1-2% who set it. It has nothing to do with good or bad - it's purely about getting the contributions in the most business like manner. When the flows are disrupted, or no longer what they were, it's time for a change - a key message of the rules for rulers.

SD






Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rukawa on November 01, 2017, 11:30:12 AM
what is the point of this?

To vent mostly. That is what this particular subforum is for :)
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on November 01, 2017, 12:42:09 PM
Can you provide some more explanation? I'm too dense to understand how you came to your individual conclusions in the original post.

1.  The writer firmly believes Trump is an absolute idiot.  Some events occur that indicate Trump may actually be savvy.  Cognitive dissonance is experiencing the tension between his beliefs and the new facts.  The easiest way out is to deny or minimize the new fact, because it is only one fact.  Longstanding beliefs are harder to give up.  But trying to minimize the new facts results in something crazy:  he's just "street" smart, which he believes is not really intelligence, but it is. 

2.  The writer presents a caricature of the virtue of loyalty.  Loyalty is imagined as an absolute.  But nobody in real life demands loyalty for loyalty's sake.  Even a mafia don wants effectiveness:  a loyal but ineffective capo gets whacked or demoted.  Trump is all about results (to a fault).  All of the people he's fired was because of lack of effectiveness, and each one knows it.  It was not because of refusing to kiss his ring.  (The technical explanation is that Trump's ethics are consequentialist.  The writer depicts loyalty in a non-consequentialist frame.  Many cognitive social scientists call this "everyday Kantianism," meaning loyalty is a categorical imperative, which they consider magical thinking.

3.  I'm having second thoughts about this one.  Sometimes psychosis and insight look exactly the same!
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Liberty on November 01, 2017, 01:35:04 PM
2.  The writer presents a caricature of the virtue of loyalty.  Loyalty is imagined as an absolute.  But nobody in real life demands loyalty for loyalty's sake.  Even a mafia don wants effectiveness:  a loyal but ineffective capo gets whacked or demoted.  Trump is all about results (to a fault).  All of the people he's fired was because of lack of effectiveness, and each one knows it.  It was not because of refusing to kiss his ring.  (The technical explanation is that Trump's ethics are consequentialist.  The writer depicts loyalty in a non-consequentialist frame.  Many cognitive social scientists call this "everyday Kantianism," meaning loyalty is a categorical imperative, which they consider magical thinking.

Who's caricaturing now? That's not my position.

My position is that Trump makes a big deal of demanding absolute personal loyalty and punishing people who don't show it, but he himself has relatively little for others, and in return, I don't think most others have very deep loyalty for him (it's more opportunistic, to get a job or access to power). So when his guys end up sitting across from FBI agents in a prisoner's dilemma kind of situation, chances are that they'll think twice about sacrificing themselves to save a guy who's probably tweeting about how he didn't know them and they never mattered anyway, and will take the deal. This might be happening as we speak.

"Trump is all about results (to a fault)."

Trump is all about himself. I suspect a narcissistic personality type. It would explain the constant bragging, self-aggrandizing, habitual lying, and need for attention (narcissistic supply feeds these people, either positive or negative), and the constant blaming of everyone else and never admitting any wrongs. His lack of shame has helped him greatly, because most people who find themselves in the situations he's put himself in tend to recuse themselves.

Personally, I don't think Trump is an idiot. Probably around average intelligence, maybe a bit more. But I think his integrity is way below average and his ego off the charts. His curiosity seems very low, leading to poor general knowledge of things that aren't on TV.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on November 01, 2017, 01:54:58 PM
Cobafdek:
You posted this table last year before the election. Within context, you implied this was a rational way to view the candidates. Obviously we can't judge Hillary, but we can judge Trump. Lets see how Dear Leader is doing against expectations.

Lobbyists: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/06/21/president-donald-trump-lobbyists-hired/416749001/

Banks: He is pushing to repeal Dodd-Frank

Saudi: http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/29/politics/kushner-saudi-arabia-trip/index.html
http://www.newsweek.com/trump-did-not-stop-war-gulf-between-saudi-arabia-and-qatar-668987

Tax Policy: Current proposal is expected to be tax hikes for middle and lower class; tax cuts for wealthy

Taxing Rich: This was so transparent. See above

Russia: LOLOLOLOL! I'll never understand the rationalization of this shit.

China: He killed TPP; the US answer to Chinese exports. It was Trump "being tough on China" and definitely had nothing to do with Cronyism:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-13/kushners-set-to-get-400-million-from-chinese-on-marquee-tower

Cronyism: Emoluments, friends in cabinet, and his daughter and son-in-law are non-confirmed "advisers". I can keep going for a long time on this one.

TTIP: This is true. Trump does want to kill trade relations with our allies. No argument here.

Israel-Palestine: Complicated topic, lets skip for the moment.

Iran: Still on-going. However, the Libyan War was cited just a few months ago as the reason North Korea is a problem today (by Fox News and the like). Yet this table is asserting that Trump will (and presumably should?) do exactly that mistake? He is definitely trying to bully Iran and [potentially?] back out of a signed nuclear deal. "Bold move Cotton. Lets see how this plays out."


Trump's "Effective to a fault." Your posts are the TDS. It's poetic irony.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on November 01, 2017, 02:23:00 PM
I'm shocked (shocked!) and disappointed when politicians don't live up to expectations.

The only results that count are MAGA and that the Forgotten Men and Women Are Forgotten No Longer.  Then most is forgiven. 

We have 3 (or 7) years to go.  It's not over yet.

By the way, you should send your post to Taleb for comments.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on November 01, 2017, 02:56:31 PM
What are the criteria that define the "forgotten man/woman"?
Why are "forgotten" ones inspired by Mr. Trump?

Want to learn.

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on November 01, 2017, 03:00:24 PM
Some events occur that indicate Trump may actually be savvy. 


Trump is all about results (to a fault).  All of the people he's fired was because of lack of effectiveness, and each one knows it.


I'm shocked (shocked!) and disappointed when politicians don't live up to expectations.


We have 3 (or 7) years to go.  It's not over yet.

____
I guess where I was confused is because to me, you are exhibiting the same cognitive biases.

So you claim Trump is savvy. Trump is all about results.

But you acknowledge he is a disappointment (because he has not produced results?)

And then you move the yardstick to X years down the line?

Maybe I am misunderstanding.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on November 01, 2017, 03:33:37 PM
What are the criteria that define the "forgotten man/woman"?
Why are "forgotten" ones inspired by Mr. Trump?

Want to learn.

No objective criteria.  I think it's a subjective state of mind, but JD Vance's book Hillbilly Elegy may point the way.  The same for Making America Great Again.  How will we know when it is great again?  Only if it feels that way.

The genius (or idiocy, depending on your point of view) of Trump's rhetoric is that the terms are open-ended and non-partisan.  It's up to each person to decide what they mean, and whether he belongs in that category.  Enough voters felt qualified to be included in that category to make him President.

By this logic, if he is removed from office (losing election, or impeachment), you might conclude the forgotten men and women still felt forgotten.

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on November 01, 2017, 03:54:36 PM
No objective criteria

How will we know when it is great again?  Only if it feels that way

____

These are the problems which create the cognitive biases you are complaining about.

Real progress is measurable.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on November 01, 2017, 04:06:17 PM
I guess where I was confused is because to me, you are exhibiting the same cognitive biases.

You're not confused.  My brain is only human, and I am subject to the same cognitive biases.  For example, I think I experience cognitive dissonance when I read Parsad's, Liberty's, and other's opinions on Trump, because I find their investment stuff worthwhile to read.  Starting this thread could be seen as my way of reducing my discomfort.  I could be completely off base, as I might have been with Case #3:  you see how I relented somewhat to SharperDingaan's view.

I'm shocked (shocked!) and disappointed when politicians don't live up to expectations.

Irony fail:  I guess I'm not very good impersonating Captain Renault in Casablanca.  Too early to conclude Trump is a failure.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Parsad on November 01, 2017, 04:08:47 PM
Case #4:

Triggered.  And doubling down.  Thanks for the additional example.

Also, confirmation bias working overtime.  Scott Adams?  I was channeling Rory Sutherland, and, I admit, badly.

More nothing. Zero substance, just rhetorical tricks ("if I act like I've won, some people will believe I'm smart and I've won" and "if I throw around words like triggered and cognitive bias and cognitive dissonance, surely people will read into it that I'm saying something clever").

Kind of like a con artist. Seems familiar these days...

+1!  Cheers!
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on November 01, 2017, 04:13:41 PM
These are the problems which create the cognitive biases you are complaining about.

Real progress is measurable.

Correct that the emotion brain is involved with the cognitive biases, but I'm not complaining about them, and didn't want to come across as complaining.  I'm just making note of them.

Feelings/emotions/subjective states aren't real?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on November 01, 2017, 04:19:43 PM
If it's too early to tell, then all our discussion is pointless and all we can do is wait and see.

In the meantime, what we can do is create good metrics (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMART_criteria) to evaluate his performance.

It would be interesting to see what goals/metrics/milestones people have in mind to consider his presidency a success.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Gregmal on November 01, 2017, 04:27:05 PM
Not surprised at all by this. I've called it out plenty of times.

I myself voted for Trump. He is not my favorite candidate ever. He is not even what I'd classify as a great person or a role model of any sorts. He is what he is and for many reasons, to me, I decided he was a better option than sticking with Hillary and the status quo.

But what is highly amusing are the type of things highlighted here. The complete insanity his critics seem to display grasping at every little bit of anything to try to prove to themselves that he is what they want him to be.

I've seen so many laughable headlines critiquing things ranging from how much his wife's clothing cost(even though Hillary regularly wore $15,000 Hermes shirts) to the fact that his wife wore a certain outfit to such and such event(while Michelle Obama was a fashionista for doing the same), calling him racist/fascist/whatever for not explicitly singling out a group of white extremists(even though Barry O never heard a peep about refusing to denounce radical Islam), complaining about the corruption among his inner circle(even though politicians across the board are largely corrupt and the Clintons were quite possible the most corrupt of any politicians to even step foot in Washington), to calling him an idiot/crook/whatever for bankrupting companies and dodging taxes(these same people idolize fellows like Buffett and Lampert for doing the same). It's hilarious. Almost as hilarious as all the Hollywood heroes/women's/human rights activists/major liberals getting exposed by the Harvey Weinstein scandal. There are a lot of Ben Affleck's and George Clooney's here...

There's so much turnover in his cabinet OMG. It must be because it's in chaos and he's an idiot. Or maybe unlike previous politicians he doesn't fill it with his friends to let them chill for 4-8 years and rather runs it the same way he did his own businesses; firing someone if they arent doing the job right or if a better candidate comes along. Anyway, I'll just see what I want to see.

Edit, also have to throw in the Comey hilariousness. "Comey should be fired for what he did to Hillary before the election and how he handled that"...Trump fires Comey..."Obstruction of justice! How dare Comey get fired"... LOL
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Parsad on November 01, 2017, 04:37:36 PM
Not surprised at all by this. I've called it out plenty of times.

I myself voted for Trump. He is not my favorite candidate ever. He is not even what I'd classify as a great person or a role model of any sorts. He is what he is and for many reasons, to me, I decided he was a better option than sticking with Hillary and the status quo.

But what is highly amusing are the type of things highlighted here. The complete insanity his critics seem to display grasping at every little bit of anything to try to prove to themselves that he is what they want him to be.

I've seen so many laughable headlines critiquing things ranging from how much his wife's clothing cost(even though Hillary regularly wore $15,000 Hermes shirts) to the fact that his wife wore a certain outfit to such and such event(while Michelle Obama was a fashionista for doing the same), calling him racist/fascist/whatever for not explicitly singling out a group of white extremists(even though Barry O never heard a peep about refusing to denounce radical Islam), complaining about the corruption among his inner circle(even though politicians across the board are largely corrupt and the Clintons were quite possible the most corrupt of any politicians to even step foot in Washington), to calling him an idiot/crook/whatever for bankrupting companies and dodging taxes(these same people idolize fellows like Buffett and Lampert for doing the same). It's hilarious. Almost as hilarious as all the Hollywood heroes/women's/human rights activists/major liberals getting exposed by the Harvey Weinstein scandal. There are a lot of Ben Affleck's and George Clooney's here...

There's so much turnover in his cabinet OMG. It must be because it's in chaos and he's an idiot. Or maybe unlike previous politicians his doesn't fill it with his friends to let them chill for 4-8 years and rather runs it the same way he did his own businesses; firing someone if they arent doing the job right or if a better candidate comes along. Anyway, I'll just see what I want to see.

Ignore all of the stupid little things that people have grasped onto and won't let go.  We are closing in on a year in office.  By ANY measure...has there been any success or progress by the Trump administration, in any area at all?

Forget about the complete dysfunction within his own team, the Republican party and the present collusion case against those that advised, supported or guided him.  Has there been any piece of progress anywhere in nearly a year in office?  Anything...at all?

What he could have gotten done if his bullying tactics, twitter obsession and ego were put aside:

- Could have reduced corporate and personal taxes across the board.
- Could have repatriated back nearly $1-1.5T in offshore cash.
- Could have fixed Obamacare...properly.
- Could have tightened immigration controls.
- Could have boldly taken the global stage and lead the world to deal with NK.
- Could have aligned both conservative democrats and liberal republicans.
- Could have evened the playing field between China and the United States.
- Could have used offshore cash to invest in domestic business and entrepreneurship.
- Could have propelled U.S. into becoming fully energy self-sufficient.

Nope.  Nada...zilch...nothing done, nothing passed...wasted opportunities!  Cheers!
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Gregmal on November 01, 2017, 04:44:42 PM
Not surprised at all by this. I've called it out plenty of times.

I myself voted for Trump. He is not my favorite candidate ever. He is not even what I'd classify as a great person or a role model of any sorts. He is what he is and for many reasons, to me, I decided he was a better option than sticking with Hillary and the status quo.

But what is highly amusing are the type of things highlighted here. The complete insanity his critics seem to display grasping at every little bit of anything to try to prove to themselves that he is what they want him to be.

I've seen so many laughable headlines critiquing things ranging from how much his wife's clothing cost(even though Hillary regularly wore $15,000 Hermes shirts) to the fact that his wife wore a certain outfit to such and such event(while Michelle Obama was a fashionista for doing the same), calling him racist/fascist/whatever for not explicitly singling out a group of white extremists(even though Barry O never heard a peep about refusing to denounce radical Islam), complaining about the corruption among his inner circle(even though politicians across the board are largely corrupt and the Clintons were quite possible the most corrupt of any politicians to even step foot in Washington), to calling him an idiot/crook/whatever for bankrupting companies and dodging taxes(these same people idolize fellows like Buffett and Lampert for doing the same). It's hilarious. Almost as hilarious as all the Hollywood heroes/women's/human rights activists/major liberals getting exposed by the Harvey Weinstein scandal. There are a lot of Ben Affleck's and George Clooney's here...

There's so much turnover in his cabinet OMG. It must be because it's in chaos and he's an idiot. Or maybe unlike previous politicians his doesn't fill it with his friends to let them chill for 4-8 years and rather runs it the same way he did his own businesses; firing someone if they arent doing the job right or if a better candidate comes along. Anyway, I'll just see what I want to see.

Ignore all of the stupid little things that people have grasped onto and won't let go.  We are closing in on a year in office.  By ANY measure...has there been any success or progress by the Trump administration, in any area at all?

Forget about the complete dysfunction within his own team, the Republican party and the present collusion case against those that advised, supported or guided him.  Has there been any piece of progress anywhere in nearly a year in office?  Anything...at all?

What he could have gotten done if his bullying tactics, twitter obsession and ego were put aside:

- Could have reduced corporate and personal taxes across the board.
- Could have repatriated back nearly $1-1.5T in offshore cash.
- Could have fixed Obamacare...properly.
- Could have tightened immigration controls.
- Could have boldly taken the global stage and lead the world to deal with NK.
- Could have aligned both conservative democrats and liberal republicans.
- Could have evened the playing field between China and the United States.
- Could have used offshore cash to invest in domestic business and entrepreneurship.
- Could have propelled U.S. into becoming fully energy self-sufficient.

Nope.  Nada...zilch...nothing done, nothing passed...wasted opportunities!  Cheers!

Ok. I agree with you. But being objective, is it not entirely clear that Trump is basically the most bullshit Republican to ever run as one. Democrats hate him, Republicans hate him. Is it really shocking he can't get anything through? The progress you are seeing is folks like Corker, Flake, soon to be McConnell, Pelosi and Schumer, all leaving because they are starting to get the message that people are sick of their nonsense? That is what Trump brings to the table. It will turn the system around(hopefully), as we are already starting to see hints of that. I just hope he doesn't get us nuked with his bravado bs but let's get real, he's a one term president who was really just as Michael Moore described him, a human Molotov cocktail the middle class sent to Washington to say F you.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on November 01, 2017, 04:55:47 PM
Quote
unlike previous politicians he doesn't fill it with his friends to let them chill for 4-8 years and rather runs it the same way he did his own businesses; firing someone if they arent doing the job right or if a better candidate comes along

Democrats hate him, Republicans hate him. Is it really shocking he can't get anything through?

the other perspective is that he makes excuses for his own ineffectiveness, but not his employees.

if all the goals that Sanjeev mentioned are not realistic, what are some realistic goals for a successful Trump presidency?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on November 01, 2017, 05:01:48 PM
"turn the system around(hopefully)"
That is what interests me now. However it's done and by whom.

Let's not forget the forgotten and try to address how things can get done.
There is so much potential. Especially if it's inclusive. Let's define the realistic goals and the way to achieve them.

The definition of the "forgotten man" is certainly fuzzy and has been twisted along the way to "fit" the ideology.

"JD Vance's book Hillbilly Elegy may point the way". Thanks for the suggestion. I'll look into it.

Maybe a suggestion for a slightly different perspective on the issue:
http://swcta.net/moore/files/2013/03/Nickel-and-Dimed-Barbara-Ehrenreich.pdf

The Dream has to be kept alive.



Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Liberty on November 01, 2017, 05:04:03 PM
Pretty weak, Greg.

You made a list of strawmen...

I don't see anybody here focusing on what Trump's wife is wearing, but it's pretty hypocritical to focus on Clinton wearing some expensive clothes when Trump is constantly posing in a golden palace sitting on a golden throne and bragging about being rich (and then turning around and doing his best pitch to blue collar people -- who he never really gave much thought before running for office -- about caring so much about them).

I don't care what Obama or Trump call terrorists, and clearly if Obama had used that phrase it wouldn't have changed anything (not like his opponents would've been satisfied by that). It's pretty clear that Obama didn't have affinities for Al Quaeda or ISIS. He killed Bin Laden and bombed the crap out of them (maybe if Bush hadn't lied to start a war in 2003 ISIS would've never existed, but whatever). Trump, on the other hand, became the only person to defend the white supremacists, which was very peculiar. Equating the two doesn't work.

As for Trump's financials, well, if he ever released his tax returns like he promised countless times to do (and blamed Romney for not doing fast enough), we could say more. But nobody here is admiring Buffett for "bankrupting companies (?) and dodging taxes". It's fine to be tax efficient, and good for Trump if he is. But I think that as a presidential candidate, his taxes and businesses should've been scrutinized like past candidates, and even moreso as president. He should also put his assets in a blind trust not run by his children who he sees all the time, which he said he'd do before he actually didn't, because conflicts of interests are a real thing. Only someone of low integrity would weasel out of doing what is clearly the right thing by claiming that the letter of the law doesn't force him to do so.

As for the turnover in the cabinet, thats not the problem. The problem is the reason why there's so much turnover. Chaos and incompetence and scandals over lies on security clearance forms, firing the FBI director, the constant drumbeat of new Russia-linked revelations (which are made even more peculiar by Trump's very weird behavior wrt Russia and Putin for much of last year) and such. For months it was basically one or more scandal per day. This is unprecedented stuff and trying to spin it as some competent business guy optimizing his staff is disingenious.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: EliG on November 01, 2017, 05:27:24 PM
President's job approval after 280 days in the office vs. unemployment rate:

Trump, 2017: 35% / 4.4%
Obama, 2009: 53% / 9.3%
Bush, 2001: 88% / 4.7%              *** Bush's approval spiked after 9/11
Clinton, 1993: 47% / 6.9%

So... unemployment rate is 4.4%, the economy is not in a recession, stock market is at the record highs, the country is not at war, body bags are not coming back by the planeload... yet Trump's job approval rating sits at 35%. How can that be??

Option 1: 65% of the country is suffering a derangement syndrome / cognitive dissonance.
Option 2: Trump defenders fail to see or refuse to see what is plainly obvious to a comfortable majority.

That's a tough one to figure out.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Gregmal on November 01, 2017, 05:27:47 PM
Pretty weak, Greg.

You made a list of strawmen...

I don't see anybody here focusing on what Trump's wife is wearing, but it's pretty hypocritical to focus on Clinton wearing some expensive clothes when Trump is constantly posing in a golden palace sitting on a golden throne and bragging about being rich (and then turning around and doing his best pitch to blue collar people -- who he never really gave much thought before running for office -- about caring so much about them).

I don't care what Obama or Trump call terrorists, and clearly if Obama had used that phrase it wouldn't have changed anything (not like his opponents would've been satisfied by that). It's pretty clear that Obama didn't have affinities for Al Quaeda or ISIS. He killed Bin Laden and bombed the crap out of them (maybe if Bush hadn't lied to start a war in 2003 ISIS would've never existed, but whatever). Trump, on the other hand, became the only person to defend the white supremacists, which was very peculiar. Equating the two doesn't work.

As for Trump's financials, well, if he ever released his tax returns like he promised countless times to do (and blamed Romney for not doing fast enough), we could say more. But nobody here is admiring Buffett for "bankrupting companies (?) and dodging taxes". It's fine to be tax efficient, and good for Trump if he is. But I think that as a presidential candidate, his taxes and businesses should've been scrutinized like past candidates, and even moreso as president. He should also put his assets in a blind trust not run by his children who he sees all the time, which he said he'd do before he actually didn't, because conflicts of interests are a real thing. Only someone of low integrity would weasel out of doing what is clearly the right thing by claiming that the letter of the law doesn't force him to do so.

As for the turnover in the cabinet, thats not the problem. The problem is the reason why there's so much turnover. Chaos and incompetence and scandals over lies on security clearance forms and the constant drumbeat of new Russia-linked revelations (which are made even more peculiar by Trump's very weird behavior wrt Russia and Putin for much of last year) and such. For months it was basically one or more scandal per day. This is unprecedented stuff and trying to spin it as some competent business guy optimizing his staff is disingenious.

Maybe not you as an individual, specifically, but these things have been all over the news, nonstop now, for the past couple years and increasingly more so since he was elected. Some of it's even been posted here.

The media has literally gone insane. It's like, how many more "polls" do we have to see? All the time, "Trump approval rating lowest ever", "polls indicate Republicans now hate Trump", "polls indicate America favors impeaching Trump". I mean haven't these people learned their lesson? After the lying and blatantly false "polls" these people put out hoping to influence the election; after Trump calling their bluff and saying that the polls were media manipulated lies, and winning; they lost any semblance of credibility. And they were shown to be the frauds that they were. And yet still, they are back at it trying to tell people about their polls, and their tabloid level stories, and how people seeing advertisements paid for by Russians influenced the election(imagine that? 120m people on FB influenced the election but 300m+ Americans seeing CNN, NYT, WAPO etc didn't? Please), etc. It's a joke. Enough is enough.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: EliG on November 01, 2017, 05:35:03 PM
After the lying and blatantly false "polls" these people put out hoping to influence the election...
Trump lost the national popular vote by 3 million, which is close to what national polls projected. He won 3 mid-west states by a combined margin of ~110K votes, which is well within margin of error of the small polls conducted in those 3 states.

But feel free to believe whatever conspiracy theories you want to believe.

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Liberty on November 01, 2017, 05:44:09 PM
Maybe not you as an individual, specifically, but these things have been all over the news, nonstop now, for the past couple years and increasingly more so since he was elected. Some of it's even been posted here.

The media has literally gone insane. It's like, how many more "polls" do we have to see? All the time, "Trump approval rating lowest ever", "polls indicate Republicans now hate Trump", "polls indicate America favors impeaching Trump". I mean haven't these people learned their lesson? After the lying and blatantly false "polls" these people put out hoping to influence the election; after Trump calling their bluff and saying that the polls were media manipulated lies, and winning; they lost any semblance of credibility. And they were shown to be the frauds that they were. And yet still, they are back at it trying to tell people about their polls, and their tabloid level stories, and how people seeing advertisements paid for by Russians influenced the election(imagine that? 120m people on FB influenced the election but 300m+ Americans seeing CNN, NYT, WAPO etc didn't? Please), etc. It's a joke. Enough is enough.

Oh, okay, it's the media's fault...

The same media that gave Trump wall-to-wall free coverage for months because his outrageousness gave good ratings. Trump would never have won if he wasn't primarily a media/reality TV celebrity.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Gregmal on November 01, 2017, 05:44:20 PM
After the lying and blatantly false "polls" these people put out hoping to influence the election...
Trump lost the national popular vote by 3 million, which is close to what national polls projected. He won 3 mid-west states by a combined margin of ~110K votes, which is well within margin of error of the small polls conducted in those 3 states.

But feel free to believe whatever conspiracy theories you want to believe.

Perhaps you are forgetting but WaPo, CNN, etc, the whole liberal propeganda machine had Hillary winning by anywhere from 6-9% overall. They had her winning by double digits states like Wisconsin, Michigan, North Carolina, Virginia, NH, etc. Heck there were even a few saying she would win states like Arizona by 5%. They weren't even close. One can maybe stretch the argument by saying what you are; that it was a popular vote. But it wasn't when you looked at the state projections, it was disgraceful. When you looked at the electoral college poll projections, it was blatant how much they lied. Yet no one is calling for an investigation there.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Gregmal on November 01, 2017, 05:45:34 PM
Maybe not you as an individual, specifically, but these things have been all over the news, nonstop now, for the past couple years and increasingly more so since he was elected. Some of it's even been posted here.

The media has literally gone insane. It's like, how many more "polls" do we have to see? All the time, "Trump approval rating lowest ever", "polls indicate Republicans now hate Trump", "polls indicate America favors impeaching Trump". I mean haven't these people learned their lesson? After the lying and blatantly false "polls" these people put out hoping to influence the election; after Trump calling their bluff and saying that the polls were media manipulated lies, and winning; they lost any semblance of credibility. And they were shown to be the frauds that they were. And yet still, they are back at it trying to tell people about their polls, and their tabloid level stories, and how people seeing advertisements paid for by Russians influenced the election(imagine that? 120m people on FB influenced the election but 300m+ Americans seeing CNN, NYT, WAPO etc didn't? Please), etc. It's a joke. Enough is enough.

Oh, okay, it's the media's fault...

The same media that gave Trump wall-to-wall free coverage for months because his outrageousness gave good ratings. Trump would never have won if he wasn't primarily a media/reality TV celebrity.

The media gave Trump coverage because their own agenda led them to believe that constantly covering him(and always bashing him) would get them the result they wanted. Boy did that backfire.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Liberty on November 01, 2017, 05:54:42 PM
The media gave Trump coverage because their own agenda led them to believe that constantly covering him(and always bashing him) would get them the result they wanted. Boy did that backfire.

They certainly didn't think he had much chances of winning. Nobody did on both sides of the aisle, and I'm pretty sure that includes Trump until the very end. He was basically lucky that a bunch of stars aligned to allow him to squeak through.

But what came first, the chicken or the egg?

When someone does something reprehensible and gets negative coverage, is it the coverage's fault?

Trump actually got off easier than anyone else in the media, he was totally teflon for a long time. Have any other presidential candidate do some of the things that he's pulled - even just one of them - and they'd be over. They basically graded him on a curve, expecting him to say things that aren't true, to make promises he'd break, to call people names and not understand policy details, or have lots of ethical conflicts, make racist remarks, etc.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Hawks on November 01, 2017, 06:12:08 PM
Could we move on from all this, and deal with investing, markets, companies, etc?  That's what this Board is primarily about.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Gregmal on November 01, 2017, 06:12:47 PM
The media gave Trump coverage because their own agenda led them to believe that constantly covering him(and always bashing him) would get them the result they wanted. Boy did that backfire.

They certainly didn't think he had much chances of winning. Nobody did on both sides of the aisle, and I'm pretty sure that includes Trump until the very end. He was basically lucky that a bunch of stars aligned to allow him to squeak through.

But what came first, the chicken or the egg?

When someone does something reprehensible and gets negative coverage, is it the coverage's fault?

Trump actually got off easier than anyone else in the media, he was totally teflon for a long time. Have any other presidential candidate do some of the things that he's pulled - even just one of them - and they'd be over. They basically graded him on a curve, expecting him to say things that aren't true, to make promises he'd break, to call people names and not understand policy details, or have lots of ethical conflicts, make racist remarks, etc.

If you were paying attention and being honest, Trump winning was always a very real possibility. The media got played by Trump(who's apparently a grand idiot) because he saw the crap they were pulling was just alienating the people who he needed to vote for him further, and bilked it. Meanwhile these people thought they were putting victory on a plate for Clinton.

If your eyes were open and you weren't just believing what you wanted to believe Trump winning was actually quite conceivable. Myself and a small few others on here predicted it. I remember a post from DTEJD1997 talking about the sheer enthusiasm from a Trump rally of predominantly white women in Detroit. What happened? The usual Liberal bunch here mocked him. They believed what they wanted to. In terms of applying this to investments, this is the equivalent to the retail investor who believes the stock promoters and crooked management when listening to grand stories about how his $15,000 penny stock investment is about to take off. Meanwhile those reading the tea leaves/scouring the 10K's knew what was really going on. It's been going on for quite a while, and this election just happened to be the boiling point.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Liberty on November 01, 2017, 07:11:52 PM
The media gave Trump coverage because their own agenda led them to believe that constantly covering him(and always bashing him) would get them the result they wanted. Boy did that backfire.

They certainly didn't think he had much chances of winning. Nobody did on both sides of the aisle, and I'm pretty sure that includes Trump until the very end. He was basically lucky that a bunch of stars aligned to allow him to squeak through.

But what came first, the chicken or the egg?

When someone does something reprehensible and gets negative coverage, is it the coverage's fault?

Trump actually got off easier than anyone else in the media, he was totally teflon for a long time. Have any other presidential candidate do some of the things that he's pulled - even just one of them - and they'd be over. They basically graded him on a curve, expecting him to say things that aren't true, to make promises he'd break, to call people names and not understand policy details, or have lots of ethical conflicts, make racist remarks, etc.

If you were paying attention and being honest, Trump winning was always a very real possibility. The media got played by Trump(who's apparently a grand idiot) because he saw the crap they were pulling was just alienating the people who he needed to vote for him further, and bilked it. Meanwhile these people thought they were putting victory on a plate for Clinton.

If your eyes were open and you weren't just believing what you wanted to believe Trump winning was actually quite conceivable. Myself and a small few others on here predicted it. I remember a post from DTEJD1997 talking about the sheer enthusiasm from a Trump rally of predominantly white women in Detroit. What happened? The usual Liberal bunch here mocked him. They believed what they wanted to. In terms of applying this to investments, this is the equivalent to the retail investor who believes the stock promoters and crooked management when listening to grand stories about how his $15,000 penny stock investment is about to take off. Meanwhile those reading the tea leaves/scouring the 10K's knew what was really going on. It's been going on for quite a while, and this election just happened to be the boiling point.

Don't pretend like it was anything other than a fluke. It was so close that anything could've derailed it. Comey doesn't come out one week before, he loses. Access Hollywood tape comes out a bit later, he loses. A few thousand more Ds come out to vote in a couple states, he loses. He's running agaisnt a man and no doubt that swings more than needed from the mysoginists... Even now his popularity is at historical lows.

And I was actually one of the people who thought he had a better chance than the polls predicted, as I kept telling people around me. Scott Adams did make some good points back then. But it was still always going to need all stars properly aligned for a photo finish at best, after eight years of power by the other party...

Low probably events do happen. Someone does win the lottery. But to afterwards pretend they were obvious is hindsight bias.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Liberty on November 01, 2017, 07:12:35 PM
Could we move on from all this, and deal with investing, markets, companies, etc?  That's what this Board is primarily about.

What are you doing in the politics section? Got lost?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on November 01, 2017, 07:38:29 PM
After the lying and blatantly false "polls" these people put out hoping to influence the election...
Trump lost the national popular vote by 3 million, which is close to what national polls projected. He won 3 mid-west states by a combined margin of ~110K votes, which is well within margin of error of the small polls conducted in those 3 states.

But feel free to believe whatever conspiracy theories you want to believe.

Perhaps you are forgetting but WaPo, CNN, etc, the whole liberal propeganda machine had Hillary winning by anywhere from 6-9% overall. They had her winning by double digits states like Wisconsin, Michigan, North Carolina, Virginia, NH, etc. Heck there were even a few saying she would win states like Arizona by 5%. They weren't even close. One can maybe stretch the argument by saying what you are; that it was a popular vote. But it wasn't when you looked at the state projections, it was disgraceful. When you looked at the electoral college poll projections, it was blatant how much they lied. Yet no one is calling for an investigation there.

They really didn't, man. A couple states missed estimates (makes sense with p = 0.05). The right-wing media was just as bad at the time. I hate Trump and actually bet on him winning. Check my post history. Nate Silver had Trump at 35% odds on election eve. Trump was the favorite in mid-October (electoral, not popular). The NYT, WaPo, LAT, ect had temporary blindness but they have sincerely improved coverage. CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, ect included (i don't have cable so I forget them). I listen to Rush and Hannity often. The right-wing MSM is on equal footing, but they won so they didn't need to recalibrate post-election. Look at cobafdek's response to me. Nothing matters, worship Trump (fuck Democrats) is the motto. That blows my mind.

There was no conspiracy with 500 journalists, 5000 gov't workers, IC employees, private lawyers, ect all involved, led by the Clinton's. There's no way the Clinton's could be that bright. Trump won. No one disputes that (other than FNC, Rush, Hannity, Breitbart with strawmen). I can't even get my friend to keep some secrets between us. Trump won. I'm trying to point out the party is over, message was sent, we've all been bamboozled, and Trump is a greedy pig. He's not MAGA. We are MAGA. Trump is killing this country. If you still don't believe me fine. I'll profit as we lose our footing in the world. My entire portfolio is still pro-Trump. I took him at his word this whole time. Check my Twitter for real-time anger for trusting him over and over.

If you still don't believe the polls thing, send me an outlet and I'll show you what happened. 98% or so of past elections could be called on popular vote. Hillary had the popular vote for sure. 2016 was an anomaly, relative to historical elections (maybe obviously).
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Hawks on November 01, 2017, 07:39:31 PM
Sorry Liberty, got distracted by all the posters trying to score "political points".  All the best.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Gregmal on November 01, 2017, 07:43:16 PM
The media gave Trump coverage because their own agenda led them to believe that constantly covering him(and always bashing him) would get them the result they wanted. Boy did that backfire.

They certainly didn't think he had much chances of winning. Nobody did on both sides of the aisle, and I'm pretty sure that includes Trump until the very end. He was basically lucky that a bunch of stars aligned to allow him to squeak through.

But what came first, the chicken or the egg?

When someone does something reprehensible and gets negative coverage, is it the coverage's fault?

Trump actually got off easier than anyone else in the media, he was totally teflon for a long time. Have any other presidential candidate do some of the things that he's pulled - even just one of them - and they'd be over. They basically graded him on a curve, expecting him to say things that aren't true, to make promises he'd break, to call people names and not understand policy details, or have lots of ethical conflicts, make racist remarks, etc.

If you were paying attention and being honest, Trump winning was always a very real possibility. The media got played by Trump(who's apparently a grand idiot) because he saw the crap they were pulling was just alienating the people who he needed to vote for him further, and bilked it. Meanwhile these people thought they were putting victory on a plate for Clinton.

If your eyes were open and you weren't just believing what you wanted to believe Trump winning was actually quite conceivable. Myself and a small few others on here predicted it. I remember a post from DTEJD1997 talking about the sheer enthusiasm from a Trump rally of predominantly white women in Detroit. What happened? The usual Liberal bunch here mocked him. They believed what they wanted to. In terms of applying this to investments, this is the equivalent to the retail investor who believes the stock promoters and crooked management when listening to grand stories about how his $15,000 penny stock investment is about to take off. Meanwhile those reading the tea leaves/scouring the 10K's knew what was really going on. It's been going on for quite a while, and this election just happened to be the boiling point.

Don't pretend like it was anything other than a fluke. It was so close that anything could've derailed it. Comey doesn't come out one week before, he loses. Access Hollywood tape comes out a bit later, he loses. A few thousand more Ds come out to vote in a couple states, he loses. He's running agaisnt a man and no doubt that swings more than needed from the mysoginists... Even now his popularity is at historical lows.

And I was actually one of the people who thought he had a better chance than the polls predicted, as I kept telling people around me. Scott Adams did make some good points back then. But it was still always going to need all stars properly aligned for a photo finish at best, after eight years of power by the other party...

Low probably events do happen. Someone does win the lottery. But to afterwards pretend they were obvious is hindsight bias.

A fluke? Most people paying attention drew immediate comparisons to the Reagan elections in the 80's. You know, the same ones where the MSM called him a bumbling idiot and predicted a landslide loss.

Access Hollywood literally came out at the worst time possible! How do we know this? Because the media purposely waiting to drop this at the moment of greatest expected damage. That is on record. Talk about trying to influence the election!

And yes, "even now his popularity is at all time lows" if you beleieve the polls put out there by the same idiots and liars who gave you the polls that said Hillary would win in a landslide... Perhaps we learn from our mistakes rather than takes these liars at face value?

It wasn't close. Trump took over 300 EC votes and won nearly every major swing state; including ones MSM had polling 10+ points in favor of Clinton days before the election.

And maybe they were low probability to some, but not all. Maybe it's just the ability to see things for what they are. Michael Burry saw what Goldman, Lehman, Citi and the Fed didn't. It was still obvious to him and those paying attention rather than believing what they wanted, or had an incentive to believe.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: EliG on November 01, 2017, 07:56:10 PM
And yes, "even now his popularity is at all time lows" if you beleieve the polls put out there by the same idiots and liars who gave you the polls that said Hillary would win in a landslide... Perhaps we learn from our mistakes rather than takes these liars at face value?

The most recent Fox News poll has Trump's job approval at 38/57, -19 spread.

Here's their last pre-election poll:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2016/polls

48% Clinton, 44% Trump, enough for a comfortable Clinton victory.

There we go, Fox News must be a left-wing media propaganda outlet run by liberal idiots and liars. Talk about cognitive dissonance.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: DTEJD1997 on November 01, 2017, 07:57:37 PM
Hey all:

I can vaguely remember the media being in ABSOLUTE hysterics when Reagan won. They were calling him a cowboy, a warmonger, reckless, dangerous, and on and on and on and on...

In the beginning, they also made fun of his jar of jelly beans.

That he was simply a "B list" actor and a simpleton.  That his supporters were cretins, mentally deficient racists, and on and on.

They were also convinced he would lead us into a nuclear war.

Turns out he was one of the best presidents ever.  Truly a great man.  America and the world was a MUCH better country/place with him serving as President.

Not saying that Trump will be the same way...but the media has been crazy/hysterical and wrong before...
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rb on November 01, 2017, 08:00:54 PM
After the lying and blatantly false "polls" these people put out hoping to influence the election...
Trump lost the national popular vote by 3 million, which is close to what national polls projected. He won 3 mid-west states by a combined margin of ~110K votes, which is well within margin of error of the small polls conducted in those 3 states.

But feel free to believe whatever conspiracy theories you want to believe.
The polls thing is funny. When polls showed Trump winning they were the shit. When they showed Trump loosing all of a sudden were fake news, lying media, etc.

And no the polls did not predict a massive Clinton win. Yes there were polls that showed Clinton +6 or +8 in the summer but not close to the election day. I don't remember all the details but 538 did an analysis before the election and found a polling average of Clinton +3 or +4. They also noted that all the polls were at least a week old and Trump was showing momentum in those polls and if that momentum continued (which they noted was likely) the margin was smaller than that and it would be a close election. The end result was Clinton +2. So i don't see the big polling error.

Now if there's some polling error in the approval does it really make a difference if Trump's approval rating is 35% or 37% in his first year with a good economy. Would the story change? I think not. It sure looks like a whole bunch of people are having buying remorse. Maybe they through that Molotov cocktail and it felt good but now they're seeing the fire.

OK, so maybe with Trump Americans threw a molotov cocktail and flipped Washington the bird. Maybe I can understand the frustration but was there some other goal behind that? Was the goal to replace the Jeff Flakes and Dean Hellers with Kelli Wars? Will the country and the people be better off under that scenario?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rb on November 01, 2017, 08:12:31 PM
There was no conspiracy with 500 journalists, 5000 gov't workers, IC employees, private lawyers, ect all involved, led by the Clinton's. There's no way the Clinton's could be that bright. Trump won. No one disputes that (other than FNC, Rush, Hannity, Breitbart with strawmen). I can't even get my friend to keep some secrets between us.
This is so true. It's what makes me shake my head and laugh my ass off at the people seeing conspiracies everywhere. Try to set up a get 10-15 people for a dinner out and see how that goes. Most of us can't get 15 people to conspire to eat some steak but apparently there are some people that can easily and regularly can get hundreds and thousands of people silently on the same page to engage in illegal behavior.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on November 01, 2017, 08:26:48 PM
Mr. Trump has repeatedly been underestimated.
The election was a close call.
But he won.
In a very polarized world, swing voters made the difference.

"The media got played by Trump(who's apparently a grand idiot) because he saw the crap they were pulling was just alienating the people who he needed to vote for him further, and bilked it."
That may be a very valid point.

The presidency will continue to be a challenging balancing act.
Maybe people underestimate again the capacity to thrive in a divide and conquer environment.

I submit that one of the issues that needs to be analyzed/understood is to figure out why many swing voters switched (sometimes enthusiastically so) to Mr. Trump ie against the establishment and the language/message being offered as an alternative.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on November 01, 2017, 08:35:21 PM
Hey all:

I can vaguely remember the media being in ABSOLUTE hysterics when Reagan won. They were calling him a cowboy, a warmonger, reckless, dangerous, and on and on and on and on...

In the beginning, they also made fun of his jar of jelly beans.

That he was simply a "B list" actor and a simpleton.  That his supporters were cretins, mentally deficient racists, and on and on.

They were also convinced he would lead us into a nuclear war.

Turns out he was one of the best presidents ever.  Truly a great man.  America and the world was a MUCH better country/place with him serving as President.

Not saying that Trump will be the same way...but the media has been crazy/hysterical and wrong before...

They ranted about quirks. We have legit news media writing articles about specifically why Trump could not have committed Treason (because we are not at War with Russia). This is not Reagan. Not by a long shot.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on November 01, 2017, 08:43:51 PM
"The media got played by Trump(who's apparently a grand idiot) because he saw the crap they were pulling was just alienating the people who he needed to vote for him further, and bilked it."
That may be a very valid point.

Basically George Wallace, who regretted the decision to divide the populous after he did it.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: DTEJD1997 on November 01, 2017, 09:10:12 PM
Hey all:

I can vaguely remember the media being in ABSOLUTE hysterics when Reagan won. They were calling him a cowboy, a warmonger, reckless, dangerous, and on and on and on and on...

In the beginning, they also made fun of his jar of jelly beans.

That he was simply a "B list" actor and a simpleton.  That his supporters were cretins, mentally deficient racists, and on and on.

They were also convinced he would lead us into a nuclear war.

Turns out he was one of the best presidents ever.  Truly a great man.  America and the world was a MUCH better country/place with him serving as President.

Not saying that Trump will be the same way...but the media has been crazy/hysterical and wrong before...

They ranted about quirks. We have legit news media writing articles about specifically why Trump could not have committed Treason (because we are not at War with Russia). This is not Reagan. Not by a long shot.

I am not saying that Trump is on the same level of Reagan.  Time will tell.

What I am trying to point out is that the collective media lost their minds back around 1980 when Reagan won his first term & shortly thereafter.  They besmirched him and his supporters...kind of like what is going now.

History showed that they could not have been more wrong back in 1980.

The press was wrong back in 1980.  The press was probably more educated back then as compared to now.  Not that they were "sharp knives" back in 1980, but they are definitely "more stupider" now...

Maybe they are right and President Trump will turn out to be a simpering idiot....but they've been very wrong before!
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on November 01, 2017, 09:30:29 PM
Hey all:

I can vaguely remember the media being in ABSOLUTE hysterics when Reagan won. They were calling him a cowboy, a warmonger, reckless, dangerous, and on and on and on and on...

In the beginning, they also made fun of his jar of jelly beans.

That he was simply a "B list" actor and a simpleton.  That his supporters were cretins, mentally deficient racists, and on and on.

They were also convinced he would lead us into a nuclear war.

Turns out he was one of the best presidents ever.  Truly a great man.  America and the world was a MUCH better country/place with him serving as President.

Not saying that Trump will be the same way...but the media has been crazy/hysterical and wrong before...

They ranted about quirks. We have legit news media writing articles about specifically why Trump could not have committed Treason (because we are not at War with Russia). This is not Reagan. Not by a long shot.

I am not saying that Trump is on the same level of Reagan.  Time will tell.

What I am trying to point out is that the collective media lost their minds back around 1980 when Reagan won his first term & shortly thereafter.  They besmirched him and his supporters...kind of like what is going now.

History showed that they could not have been more wrong back in 1980.

The press was wrong back in 1980.  The press was probably more educated back then as compared to now.  Not that they were "sharp knives" back in 1980, but they are definitely "more stupider" now...

Maybe they are right and President Trump will turn out to be a simpering idiot....but they've been very wrong before!

I mean, everyone and every organization has been wrong before. Trump very likely conspired with Russia. I hate the rationalization that ignores known facts and testimony. Has anyone considered the consequences of if this is a witch hunt and the alleged conspiracy is without any evidence?

It would be the end of the Democrat party, easily 100s of high ranking government officials indicted, 100s of federal law enforcement officials indicted, disbandiment or full restructuring of Intel agencies, and so on. An end of the US government, as we know it. 1,000s of people have bet their careers, reputations, and freedom to call out Trump. What are the odds they are all wrong and Trump is right, despite all the reported crap?

This isn't about liberals/democrats or MSM. This is one of the bigger criminal investigations in US history. I'm at a loss for why I need to point this all out.

Fox News has more access to Trump's admin then any other media outlet at the moment. How has Fox News not broken a single story on Trump/Russia in over 18 months? "To thine own self be true."
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Investor20 on November 02, 2017, 05:55:13 AM
"This isn't about liberals/democrats or MSM. This is one of the bigger criminal investigations in US history. I'm at a loss for why I need to point this all out."

Yes...its not about liberals/conservatives. Its about how our govt works.  I am not sure why more people are not concerned.

NYtimes reports:

"He testifies against others, who in turn are pressured to testify against still others. And all this makes it more difficult to protect the man at the center if indeed he has violated the law."
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/30/opinion/paul-manafort-indictment-trump.html

As per above NYtimes argument, they have to arrest a few other guys to figure out "if indeed he has violated the law".

And all these are cases normally no one would get arrested.  No one would have looked at Manafort, if he was not Trumps campaign manager. How do I know this...look at this Politico article:

"Washington lobbyists who represent foreign powers have taken comfort for decades in the fact that the Justice Department rarely goes after them for potentially breaking the law. That all changed on Monday."
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/31/tony-podesta-lobbyists-mueller-manafort-244389

Note in above "decades" Mueller was FBI director for 10 years and active participant in that policy of not pursuing these kind of cases. Manafort got arrested not for what he did, but his association with Trump. That is a very slippery process, and a scary one.

If they ultimately find out that he did not indeed violate the law, too bad for others I guess for getting arrested for things normally they don't. That the govt resorts to these kind of tactics scares me more than anything else.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rkbabang on November 02, 2017, 07:08:54 AM
just as Michael Moore described him, a human Molotov cocktail the middle class sent to Washington to say F you.

I'm not a fan of Moore, but that description is absolutely perfect.  And it is exactly why I'm enjoying all of this so much.  The rage coming from the anti-Trump left is palatable.  I've never seen anything like it in all my life.  They are beside themselves and simply can't deal with it.  The planned rallies where they will be in the streets screaming at the sky (if this is really going to happen) should be youTube gold.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rb on November 02, 2017, 08:41:45 AM
Note in above "decades" Mueller was FBI director for 10 years and active participant in that policy of not pursuing these kind of cases. Manafort got arrested not for what he did, but his association with Trump. That is a very slippery process, and a scary one.

If they ultimately find out that he did not indeed violate the law, too bad for others I guess for getting arrested for things normally they don't. That the govt resorts to these kind of tactics scares me more than anything else.
I really don't understand the thinking here. They break the low and they shouldn't be arrested because they got away with it in the past? This is ridiculous. Especially in the US where if you catch a kid with some marijuana you throw the book at him. But these guys should be free to essentially act as foreign agents, engage in money laundering, etc and they should be left alone because there's supposedly some gentleman's agreement?

If you break the law I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that at some point in the future the FBI may pay you a visit in the early hours.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cardboard on November 02, 2017, 09:11:19 AM
Following the law now...

It is interesting that RB and others are now pushing for the law to be followed. Actually, I have no problem at all with this thinking.

However, all existing and applicable laws, to all people should be applied. This means application to Clinton, Trump and yes to immigration also.

Cardboard
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Gregmal on November 02, 2017, 09:18:41 AM
Note in above "decades" Mueller was FBI director for 10 years and active participant in that policy of not pursuing these kind of cases. Manafort got arrested not for what he did, but his association with Trump. That is a very slippery process, and a scary one.

If they ultimately find out that he did not indeed violate the law, too bad for others I guess for getting arrested for things normally they don't. That the govt resorts to these kind of tactics scares me more than anything else.
I really don't understand the thinking here. They break the low and they shouldn't be arrested because they got away with it in the past? This is ridiculous. Especially in the US where if you catch a kid with some marijuana you throw the book at him. But these guys should be free to essentially act as foreign agents, engage in money laundering, etc and they should be left alone because there's supposedly some gentleman's agreement?

If you break the law I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that at some point in the future the FBI may pay you a visit in the early hours.

Pretty much. And this is just another byproduct of Trump. The guy IMO is not much better or worse than the politicians that came before him. He just seems(debate whether it's intentional or not) to highlight, and do everything they all did, just in a much more extravagant way.

Make outrageous promises that can't be fulfilled? Check
Talk out of both sides of his mouth? Check
Surround himself with people who he can use to do the dirty work? Check
Ignore/outrage large portions of the population? Check

Like you said in your post prior to this, that's why it's enjoyable. To see the other side have to deal with what they've done to all of us; and they hate it! It's so enjoyable. Obama spent the majority of his time in office taking passive aggressive swipes at white people. All the libs, who tout free speech and 1st amendment, that protest and harass anyone who shares a different view than them. Democrats as a whole have spend the last decade vilifying the middle/upper middle class. They've all been living lavishly while telling the American people they feel the pain. Politicians, and especially lobbyists have all been above the law for decades. Manifort played that game, and yes, just because he is associated with the Trump witch hunt, is he facing trouble. But now a precedent will be established and more will be forced to change or face similar repercussions. It's all a crock of you know what.

So then here comes Trump who is so bold with all these things it's refreshing. And it's bound to force changes. It's like when Lou Lamouriello of the NJ Devils, a long opponent of what were called "retirement contracts" offered Ilya Kovalchuk 17 years and 100 million with the last 6 years at 500k. It was so outrageous it could only be construed as making a mockery of the system. And a year later those types of contracts were banned.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rb on November 02, 2017, 09:24:58 AM
However, all existing and applicable laws, to all people should be applied. This means application to Clinton, Trump and yes to immigration also.

Cardboard
Yes I fully agree. Furthermore I think that it's really dangerous to protect people based on political ideology or apply the law in ways that's convenient. You'll just create 2 groups of protected criminals. If for example they find that Podesta engaged in the same shit as Manafort (money laundry, etc) you'll find no protest from me when they haul him away.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rkbabang on November 02, 2017, 09:27:57 AM
However, all existing and applicable laws, to all people should be applied. This means application to Clinton, Trump and yes to immigration also.

Cardboard
Yes I fully agree. Furthermore I think that it's really dangerous to protect people based on political ideology or apply the law in ways that's convenient. You'll just create 2 groups of protected criminals. If for example they find that Podesta engaged in the same shit as Manafort (money laundry, etc) you'll find no protest from me when they haul him away.

"Two groups of protected criminals".  That is as good a description of the current US government as I've seen.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on November 02, 2017, 09:51:57 AM
For what it's worth, tend to think that, in the main, we get what we deserve.

"We misunderstand public life if we equate it with politics, with the activities of government. Not only do we misunderstand it, we also strangle our sense of public possibilities. The heart of public life is simply the interaction of strangers and that is a basic and vital human experience, not a specialized political process" Palmer, 1981

Some say this started with television and other technology-inducing individualism.
But social media may help with the revival after all.
Long participatory democracy and civic pride.

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on November 02, 2017, 02:23:11 PM
The Special Counsel didn't just get appointed because people hate Trump. Nor is it out of the ordinary, considering the below timeline (I might have forgotten an important event or 20):

JUL 2016 (22nd): FBI opens counter intelligence Trump/Russia probe (almost certainly because of intercepted electronic communications that were monitored from a FISA warrant. That warrant was almost certainly not granted due to the dossier. Neither of these two conjectures are absolutely confirmed, at present)

AUG 2016 (roughly 2-3 weeks later): Obama receives intelligence that Putin directly ordered and was involved in the cyberwarfare on the US
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/national-security/obama-putin-election-hacking/?utm_term=.bcab38c4146d

AUG-NOV 2016: Congress is aware of Trump/Russia and the evidence. They refuse to act or alert the public. Obama does not alert the public until OCT-2016. Aides are now saying that Obama didn't react at the time because of the strong partisan polarization at the time and concerns over how 1/2 the public would react to a perceived favoritism of one candidate and investigation into the other. The new PBS documentary on Putin dives in to this part of the story.

DEC 11 2016: McConnell/Congress states that Russia did commit an attack effecting the US election. Only after the election and new evidence being revealed did he/they admit this is true. We now have everyone but Trump himself agreeing that the facts laid out by IC/Obama/media are true.
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/12/why-didnt-obama-reveal-intel-about-russias-influence-on-the-election/510242/

JAN 2017: IC tells the public they are sure the Russians interfered with the election. This again confirms the story of Obama/media/Bi-partisan congress. At this point, we only know the FBI is investigating Trump Campaign and Russia connections, not Trump himself. Again, only Trump is denying anything occurred at this point.
https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf

JAN 27 2017: FBI investigates George Papadopolous and finds him lying to the FBI. At lunchtime of that day, Trump requested to have dinner with the FBI Director (Comey) one-on-one. During the private dinner, Trump talked about and requested loyalty and asked about an on-going investigation into individuals who worked for his campaign. Both Comey and Trump knew that GP was interviewed that morning and found to have lied. Trump misleadingly set up a 1-1 dinner, with the investigator, likely after learning this detail. He then proceeded to ask the investigator about details of the investigation and attempted to sway the investigator as to the facts of the case.

FEB 2017: AG Sessions recuses himself from probe due to involvement with Trump campaign and lying about contacts with Russians
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/timeline-leading-jeff-sessions-recusal-fallout/story?id=45855918

MAR 2017: Comey testifies to congress that the FBI is investigating the Trump campaign's activities with Russia

MAY 9 2017: Trump fires the FBI Director, who is investigating Trump's campaign.

ONE WEEK LATER: Rosenstein, as acting AG for the scope of this investigation, appoints a SC (Mueller). Cites public interest and unique circumstances as the reason for an independent investigation lead.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/appointment-special-counsel   (plain english reasons)
https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/967231/download   (legal reasons)



You can look up better timelines but these are the key points in the story, relevant to your comment. To believe Trump about a witch hunt is to assume that nearly every Federal Law Enforcement senior official (including every non-recused official Trump has appointed/nominated) is part of a cover-up that no one has any evidence for, all while fabricating all outstanding evidence in to Trump and his campaign. That is an extremely lofty reach. If we hear hoof beats, we should be thinking horses, not zebras.



Like many others, I'm all for enforcing laws. However, Hillary hasn't been indicted because there's no straight forward case against her, from my understanding. I know this is angering and disappointing to many, but this seems to be the truth of why she wasn't. That's what has been shown in investigation hearings and court docs, all of which are publicly available. If R's could have found something in 1 of the 7 Benghazi investigations on her, the emails, or through any related investigation, they would have charged her.

As to the immigration laws: Again, my understanding is that everything done was in adherence with our laws. The immigration bans were shot down because of Trump running his mouth as to an illegal purpose of the law. If he said nothing and just did it, they would have been legal. It is as annoyingly stupid as that. The actually text was not the issue.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Gregmal on November 02, 2017, 02:32:52 PM
The Special Counsel didn't just get appointed because people hate Trump. Nor is it out of the ordinary, considering the below timeline (I might have forgotten an important event or 20):

JUL 2016 (22nd): FBI opens counter intelligence Trump/Russia probe (almost certainly because of intercepted electronic communications that were monitored from a FISA warrant. That warrant was almost certainly not granted due to the dossier. Neither of these two conjectures are absolutely confirmed, at present)

AUG 2016 (roughly 2-3 weeks later): Obama receives intelligence that Putin directly ordered and was involved in the cyberwarfare on the US
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/national-security/obama-putin-election-hacking/?utm_term=.bcab38c4146d

AUG-NOV 2016: Congress is aware of Trump/Russia and the evidence. They refuse to act or alert the public. Obama does not alert the public until OCT-2016. Aides are now saying that Obama didn't react at the time because of the strong partisan polarization at the time and concerns over how 1/2 the public would react to a perceived favoritism of one candidate and investigation into the other. The new PBS documentary on Putin dives in to this part of the story.

DEC 11 2016: McConnell/Congress states that Russia did commit an attack effecting the US election. Only after the election and new evidence being revealed did he/they admit this is true. We now have everyone but Trump himself agreeing that the facts laid out by IC/Obama/media are true.
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/12/why-didnt-obama-reveal-intel-about-russias-influence-on-the-election/510242/

JAN 2017: IC tells the public they are sure the Russians interfered with the election. This again confirms the story of Obama/media/Bi-partisan congress. At this point, we only know the FBI is investigating Trump Campaign and Russia connections, not Trump himself. Again, only Trump is denying anything occurred at this point.
https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf

JAN 27 2017: FBI investigates George Papadopolous and finds him lying to the FBI. At lunchtime of that day, Trump requested to have dinner with the FBI Director (Comey) one-on-one. During the private dinner, Trump talked about and requested loyalty and asked about an on-going investigation into individuals who worked for his campaign. Both Comey and Trump knew that GP was interviewed that morning and found to have lied. Trump misleadingly set up a 1-1 dinner, with the investigator, likely after learning this detail. He then proceeded to ask the investigator about details of the investigation and attempted to sway the investigator as to the facts of the case.

FEB 2017: AG Sessions recuses himself from probe due to involvement with Trump campaign and lying about contacts with Russians
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/timeline-leading-jeff-sessions-recusal-fallout/story?id=45855918

MAR 2017: Comey testifies to congress that the FBI is investigating the Trump campaign's activities with Russia

MAY 9 2017: Trump fires the FBI Director, who is investigating Trump's campaign.

ONE WEEK LATER: Rosenstein, as acting AG for the scope of this investigation, appoints a SC (Mueller). Cites public interest and unique circumstances as the reason for an independent investigation lead.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/appointment-special-counsel   (plain english reasons)
https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/967231/download   (legal reasons)



You can look up better timelines but these are the key points in the story, relevant to your comment. To believe Trump about a witch hunt is to assume that nearly every Federal Law Enforcement senior official (including every non-recused official Trump has appointed/nominated) is part of a cover-up that no one has any evidence for, all while fabricating all outstanding evidence in to Trump and his campaign. That is an extremely lofty reach. If we hear hoof beats, we should be thinking horses, not zebras.



Like many others, I'm all for enforcing laws. However, Hillary hasn't been indicted because there's no straight forward case against her, from my understanding. I know this is angering and disappointing to many, but this seems to be the truth of why she wasn't. That's what has been shown in investigation hearings and court docs, all of which are publicly available. If R's could have found something in 1 of the 7 Benghazi investigations on her, the emails, or through any related investigation, they would have charged her.

As to the immigration laws: Again, my understanding is that everything done was in adherence with our laws. The immigration bans were shot down because of Trump running his mouth as to an illegal purpose of the law. If he said nothing and just did it, they would have been legal. It is as annoyingly stupid as that. The actually text was not the issue.

I'm sorry but if you listen to the reasoning Comey gave, your head should spin. With Hillary, we are talking about national security and classified information. Yet I probably couldn't get out of a speeding ticket with the excuses that I didn't intend to break the law, but was just reckless and careless...

"Although we did not find clear evidence that Secretary Clinton or her colleagues intended to violate laws governing the handling of classified information, there is evidence that they were extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information" -James Comey
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rb on November 02, 2017, 02:39:06 PM
Gregmal, are you this upset when Trump serves classified info to the Russians just straight up?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on November 02, 2017, 02:43:50 PM
I'm sorry but if you listen to the reasoning Comey gave, your head should spin. With Hillary, we are talking about national security and classified information. Yet I probably couldn't get out of a speeding ticket with the excuses that I didn't intend to break the law, but was just reckless and careless...

"Although we did not find clear evidence that Secretary Clinton or her colleagues intended to violate laws governing the handling of classified information, there is evidence that they were extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information" -James Comey

There's no need for a metaphor here. We know the actual statutes that Hillary was being investigated for potentially violating. We know the actual requirements the government needed to provide to meet the burden of proof. We know the actual case precedent, for this specific statute. We know the actual details of her actions.

It is unnecessary and misleading metaphors like you present that has led to the polarization (on Both Sides, if that's of any help). Comey was absolutely right, if you research the case in detail. Again, it is frustrating and disappointing to many, but he handled the case correctly.

I guess I didn't include this before, but it should be mentioned that Trump has not been impeached for similar reasons. We have prior precedent. Trump has not yet met those standards, despite technically committing offences that are impeachable. Prior precedent matters! It's literally the bedrock of our legal system!
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: EliG on November 02, 2017, 04:35:11 PM
#MAGA people are tired of winning:

(https://i.imgur.com/o0eKv8l.png)
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Gregmal on November 02, 2017, 04:59:58 PM
#MAGA people are tired of winning:

(https://i.imgur.com/o0eKv8l.png)

Is this not the height of insanity? How many times has he tried doing something on healthcare only to have career politicians like John McCain purposely sabotage it? It's going to be the same thing with taxes. You are already seeing several Republicans refusing to do anything.

This dude's healthcare went up 80% because that's what this Obamacare scam does. And well, if you don't want to get ripped off on healthcare, and choose just not to have it, they screw you with a hefty fine.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: randomep on November 02, 2017, 05:09:59 PM


Is this not the height of insanity? How many times has he tried doing something on healthcare only to have career politicians like John McCain purposely sabotage it? It's going to be the same thing with taxes. You are already seeing several Republicans refusing to do anything.

This dude's healthcare went up 80% because that's what this Obamacare scam does.

Wait Gregmal, you are implying Trump is a successful executive who can turn this country around if only he was not tripped-up or backstabbed by his own people?

That is kinda like Hitler saying that he could've conquered Russia if only his general were comptent.  Comon, we all know now with hindsight Hitler was in waaay over his head...... Kinda like the Trump huh? I am sure if he is alive at ninety he'll bitch like that.

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on November 02, 2017, 05:11:22 PM
Trump is so ineffective! What kind of #loser can't push a bill passed some old farts in congress? Just sitting there as president doing nothing! Talk about #LAZY! Just another example of government waste! I wish he would just fire himself #IMFIRED #letsgogolfing #melaniawheresmymilk
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: EliG on November 02, 2017, 05:16:43 PM
Is this not the height of insanity? How many times has he tried doing something on healthcare only to have career politicians like John McCain purposely sabotage it?

Sorry Greg, but you are badly brainwashed. You live in a bizarro world where black is white, white is black, and you have zero awareness of it. As hard as it is to do, you should try to expand your news sources beyond pro-Trump echo chamber.

FYI, I am a *conservative* Canadian. Just so you know where I'm coming from.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: randomep on November 02, 2017, 05:21:21 PM

I don't know about you but I envy Trump. He has had a grand life. He is filthy rich, he has always had trophy girlfriends and wives and could father a child at 60... and do zero work raising the child. 

To do so he had luck, rich parents, and his own wits. So sure he has something in his brain that I wish I had.  But I still think he is an idiot.  He cannot pick stocks, run a company or run a country.   I think of a businessman's contribution the way Warren Buffett thinks of the airline industry.  Is this a net creater or destroyer of capital?  Trump could be a net destroyer of capital. Or let me put it this way, I don't think he earned beyond the net cost of capital for his shareholders.  He went bankrupt, what? 4 times? His failed to pay back his bond holders how much money?

If every business man did what he did this country would be broke.  That's why I think he is an idiot....... one who is really good at milking the world for his benefit.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: EliG on November 02, 2017, 05:25:14 PM
More winning for the forgotten #MAGA people:

(https://i.imgur.com/7b2HKgZ.png)
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Gregmal on November 02, 2017, 05:43:52 PM


Is this not the height of insanity? How many times has he tried doing something on healthcare only to have career politicians like John McCain purposely sabotage it? It's going to be the same thing with taxes. You are already seeing several Republicans refusing to do anything.

This dude's healthcare went up 80% because that's what this Obamacare scam does.

Wait Gregmal, you are implying Trump is a successful executive who can turn this country around if only he was not tripped-up or backstabbed by his own people?

That is kinda like Hitler saying that he could've conquered Russia if only his general were comptent.  Comon, we all know now with hindsight Hitler was in waaay over his head...... Kinda like the Trump huh? I am sure if he is alive at ninety he'll bitch like that.

When both Republicans and Democrats refuse to work with him, I don't know what is reasonably expected to get done right off the bat. Maybe Eli thinks he should just go in there and find a way to do it completely by himself or something, but the reality is that he can't change Obamacare with out Congress being willing to do something proactive. Wasn't it McCain who even admitted "we aren't just going to jam this through because we have numbers, like the Democrats did with Obamacare". Yea you're right John, so instead go do nothing. I'm sure John is also using the VA facilities and is currently enrolled through an Obamacare exchange for his brain tumor treatment. Oh wait, of course he isn't. He's got the gold plated benefits packages all Senators do. But he's fine leaving this mess as is for the rest of us.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Gregmal on November 02, 2017, 05:45:32 PM
Is this not the height of insanity? How many times has he tried doing something on healthcare only to have career politicians like John McCain purposely sabotage it?

Sorry Greg, but you are badly brainwashed. You live in a bizarro world where black is white, white is black, and you have zero awareness of it. As hard as it is to do, you should try to expand your news sources beyond pro-Trump echo chamber.

FYI, I am a *conservative* Canadian. Just so you know where I'm coming from.

Awful lot of substance here. Bravo. Although what's clear is the same theme as always. Obama creates this giant healthcare mess. Now we blame Trump, who has been in office all of 10 months. Yea, ok.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: randomep on November 02, 2017, 06:04:09 PM


Is this not the height of insanity? How many times has he tried doing something on healthcare only to have career politicians like John McCain purposely sabotage it? It's going to be the same thing with taxes. You are already seeing several Republicans refusing to do anything.

This dude's healthcare went up 80% because that's what this Obamacare scam does.

Wait Gregmal, you are implying Trump is a successful executive who can turn this country around if only he was not tripped-up or backstabbed by his own people?

That is kinda like Hitler saying that he could've conquered Russia if only his general were comptent.  Comon, we all know now with hindsight Hitler was in waaay over his head...... Kinda like the Trump huh? I am sure if he is alive at ninety he'll bitch like that.

When both Republicans and Democrats refuse to work with him, I don't know what is reasonably expected to get done right off the bat. Maybe Eli thinks he should just go in there and find a way to do it completely by himself or something, but the reality is that he can't change Obamacare with out Congress being willing to do something proactive. Wasn't it McCain who even admitted "we aren't just going to jam this through because we have numbers, like the Democrats did with Obamacare". Yea you're right John, so instead go do nothing. I'm sure John is also using the VA facilities and is currently enrolled through an Obamacare exchange for his brain tumor treatment. Oh wait, of course he isn't. He's got the gold plated benefits packages all Senators do. But he's fine leaving this mess as is for the rest of us.

I don't know if you read my post or want to address what I said.   Let me spell it out clearly. He is in waaay over his head.   

I am not just addressing Obamacare..... what about the wall? what about destroying ISIS? I know there is 37 months to go but I can just see the excuses like yours in the coming months when Trump does jack shit different from any other generic middle of the road presidential candidate.

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Gregmal on November 02, 2017, 06:21:23 PM


Is this not the height of insanity? How many times has he tried doing something on healthcare only to have career politicians like John McCain purposely sabotage it? It's going to be the same thing with taxes. You are already seeing several Republicans refusing to do anything.

This dude's healthcare went up 80% because that's what this Obamacare scam does.

Wait Gregmal, you are implying Trump is a successful executive who can turn this country around if only he was not tripped-up or backstabbed by his own people?

That is kinda like Hitler saying that he could've conquered Russia if only his general were comptent.  Comon, we all know now with hindsight Hitler was in waaay over his head...... Kinda like the Trump huh? I am sure if he is alive at ninety he'll bitch like that.

When both Republicans and Democrats refuse to work with him, I don't know what is reasonably expected to get done right off the bat. Maybe Eli thinks he should just go in there and find a way to do it completely by himself or something, but the reality is that he can't change Obamacare with out Congress being willing to do something proactive. Wasn't it McCain who even admitted "we aren't just going to jam this through because we have numbers, like the Democrats did with Obamacare". Yea you're right John, so instead go do nothing. I'm sure John is also using the VA facilities and is currently enrolled through an Obamacare exchange for his brain tumor treatment. Oh wait, of course he isn't. He's got the gold plated benefits packages all Senators do. But he's fine leaving this mess as is for the rest of us.

I don't know if you read my post or want to address what I said.   Let me spell it out clearly. He is in waaay over his head.   

I am not just addressing Obamacare..... what about the wall? what about destroying ISIS? I know there is 37 months to go but I can just see the excuses like yours in the coming months when Trump does jack shit different from any other generic middle of the road presidential candidate.

Well I would think for starters, looking at things deeper than what the tabloid level surface stuff tells you would help. If the Flakes and all those career politicians get turned over, and newer folks come in who aren't bitter that the kingdom as they knew it began crumbling; and Trump still hasn't gotten anything through- fine. But I'm not sure I believe people can be so married to their narratives that they can't see the utter hatred; both Democrat and Republican, career politicians, refuse to do work with him. On top of that its been 10 months. So yes, if the situation in 3 years is just the same, sure, I'd say he failed. But I don't think the situation will be. Things are changing. You can see it starting when these career toolbags like Corker aren't even bothering to run because they know they have no shot without the president's approval.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: randomep on November 02, 2017, 06:58:03 PM

Well I would think for starters, looking at things deeper than what the tabloid level surface stuff tells you would help. If the Flakes and all those career politicians get turned over, and newer folks come in who aren't bitter that the kingdom as they knew it began crumbling; and Trump still hasn't gotten anything through- fine. But I'm not sure I believe people can be so married to their narratives that they can't see the utter hatred; both Democrat and Republican, career politicians, refuse to do work with him. On top of that its been 10 months. So yes, if the situation in 3 years is just the same, sure, I'd say he failed. But I don't think the situation will be. Things are changing. You can see it starting when these career toolbags like Corker aren't even bothering to run because they know they have no shot without the president's approval.

Wow, ok I really misunderstood you. You actually think there is a reasonable chance he can do anything other than "fail" as you describe it?  Ok, I am older and time flies faster, 3 years will fly by like a flash.  Well revisit this thread when it gets closer to 3 years.

Technically, I don't have skin in the game, I am not an american. I know a political discussion is just back and forth like discussing religion with someone that has opposite views to you. It is just words back and forth and ultimately a waste of time.   But putting your stakes down and saying so and so will happen, that is something that can be refuted or confirmed. Kinda like post-mortem after you sell a stock and want to know if your thesis turned out right.

And what is the purpose of this post-mortem? Its your future (assuming you are an american). I'd like to hear discussion on who to pick as the next president, especially if Trump fails as I expect, who knows maybe I'll learn something useful like I learned from our discussion here.....

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rb on November 02, 2017, 06:59:58 PM
When both Republicans and Democrats refuse to work with him, I don't know what is reasonably expected to get done right off the bat. Maybe Eli thinks he should just go in there and find a way to do it completely by himself or something, but the reality is that he can't change Obamacare with out Congress being willing to do something proactive. Wasn't it McCain who even admitted "we aren't just going to jam this through because we have numbers, like the Democrats did with Obamacare". Yea you're right John, so instead go do nothing. I'm sure John is also using the VA facilities and is currently enrolled through an Obamacare exchange for his brain tumor treatment. Oh wait, of course he isn't. He's got the gold plated benefits packages all Senators do. But he's fine leaving this mess as is for the rest of us.
Hold on a second, I though America didn't have kings where everyone has to bend to the ruler's wants. Also wasn't he who was the best most greatest dealmaker? Why doesn't he go in there to make a deal?

By the way this is the environment leaders operate in. Nobody has everything served on a platter and they just waltz in and take the platitudes. It's always complicated. The good ones make it work somehow and the bad ones don't. Yes some senators voted against healthcare because they were against another 20 million or so people being uninsured.

I think the people voted for repeal and replace. But what they got was repeal. Where was the replace. Where was the White House's proposals on healthcare? Where were the white papers about reforming healthcare that can be negotiated to arrive at a deal? Nowhere. Because there were none. It was all just empty words. So yeah, some senators voted against some empty bullshit. So what did Trump do? Out of spite he pulled subsidies from insurance markets. A move that will both hurt people and cost the government money. Some leadership on display right there.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Investor20 on November 02, 2017, 07:15:32 PM

AUG 2016 (roughly 2-3 weeks later): Obama receives intelligence that Putin directly ordered and was involved in the cyberwarfare on the US
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/national-security/obama-putin-election-hacking/?utm_term=.bcab38c4146d
 
The hacking theory has several serious problems.

1) It happened early 2015, when no one could have known Trump is republican nominee. 

So there is no way Russia to have decided to help Trump by hacking DNC. The hacking occured way before Sep 2015 date given below:

"When Special Agent Adrian Hawkins of the Federal Bureau of Investigation called the Democratic National Committee in September 2015 to pass along some troubling news about its computer network, he was transferred, naturally, to the help desk."
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/13/us/politics/russia-hack-election-dnc.html

And ofcourse no one did anything about it. A message was left, and that's all. See below.

2) FBI did not do anything about this hacking as per DNC's Wasserman:

"“Respectfully, Secretary Johnson is utterly misinformed. And it’s simply not accurate. ... The FBI and other federal agencies did virtually nothing to make sure that when they were aware at the point that they were aware that there was a concern that there was an intrusion on our network by the Russians that they did virtually nothing to sound the alarm bells to make us aware of that. And they left, essentially, the Russians on our network for more than, for almost a year before we discovered that they were there.”
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/fl-reg-wasserman-schultz-homeland-security-wrong-20170622-story.html

3) FBI never looked at the key evidence - that is study the DNC hacked computers.

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/313555-comey-fbi-did-request-access-to-hacked-dnc-servers
"Comey: DNC denied FBI's requests for access to hacked servers"

Its curious that for what some call the biggest investigation ever, which the crime is supposedly the hacking of DNC computers, FBI never looks at the computers.  DNC/FBI doesn't do anything for an year to fix the security hole. And this all happened well before Trump is a republican nominee.

Stalin apparently said, Show me the man and I will show you the crime.  The gist of this is, police is supposed to investigate a crime, not a person.  But here we are investigating Trump, but the crime, the hacking, FBI never looked at the server.  FBI/DNC didn't do anything about the hacking even after they knew about it for an year.


Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on November 02, 2017, 08:39:37 PM

AUG 2016 (roughly 2-3 weeks later): Obama receives intelligence that Putin directly ordered and was involved in the cyberwarfare on the US
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/national-security/obama-putin-election-hacking/?utm_term=.bcab38c4146d
 
The hacking theory has several serious problems.

1) It happened early 2015, when no one could have known Trump is republican nominee. 

So there is no way Russia to have decided to help Trump by hacking DNC. The hacking occured way before Sep 2015 date given below:

"When Special Agent Adrian Hawkins of the Federal Bureau of Investigation called the Democratic National Committee in September 2015 to pass along some troubling news about its computer network, he was transferred, naturally, to the help desk."
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/13/us/politics/russia-hack-election-dnc.html

And ofcourse no one did anything about it. A message was left, and that's all. See below.

2) FBI did not do anything about this hacking as per DNC's Wasserman:

"“Respectfully, Secretary Johnson is utterly misinformed. And it’s simply not accurate. ... The FBI and other federal agencies did virtually nothing to make sure that when they were aware at the point that they were aware that there was a concern that there was an intrusion on our network by the Russians that they did virtually nothing to sound the alarm bells to make us aware of that. And they left, essentially, the Russians on our network for more than, for almost a year before we discovered that they were there.”
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/fl-reg-wasserman-schultz-homeland-security-wrong-20170622-story.html

3) FBI never looked at the key evidence - that is study the DNC hacked computers.

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/313555-comey-fbi-did-request-access-to-hacked-dnc-servers
"Comey: DNC denied FBI's requests for access to hacked servers"

Its curious that for what some call the biggest investigation ever, which the crime is supposedly the hacking of DNC computers, FBI never looks at the computers.  DNC/FBI doesn't do anything for an year to fix the security hole. And this all happened well before Trump is a republican nominee.

Stalin apparently said, Show me the man and I will show you the crime.  The gist of this is, police is supposed to investigate a crime, not a person.  But here we are investigating Trump, but the crime, the hacking, FBI never looked at the server.  FBI/DNC didn't do anything about the hacking even after they knew about it for an year.

1. Your NYT article seems to confirm it was Russia... Anyway,

George Papadopoulos' guilty plea was for lying to the FBI. One of the lies was about "dirt", which is known to be DNC emails. Importantly, GP knew of this dirt before joining the campaign and before it was publicly announced.

https://www.justice.gov/sco
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/prosecutors-consider-bringing-charges-in-dnc-hacking-case-1509618203
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/world/national-security/prosecutors-have-identified-russian-government-hackers-who-breached-the-dnc/2017/11/02/f38b9b18-bfd3-11e7-8444-a0d4f04b89eb_story.html

Also, the theory is Trump was pushed to run in 2013 by Russia, but we don't have proof of that yet. Either way, if you had read my post instead of trying to "gotcha" me, youd see the SC mandate is to investigate potential links between Trump campaign and Russia. GP guilty plea is another example that Trump campaign attempted to acquire DNC emails, which were known to be stolen property because of GP. Trump not being a candidate at the time of theft is moot.

2. It's Wassermen's word vs the FBI and DHS. I'll take law enforcement, as I have over and over.

3. See #1. Also, the SC investigation will certainly cover this detail and opine. It's an active investigation. The FBI and now SC cannot respond or rebuttal alternative theories until they have reached a conclusion.

You mention DNC did nothing, but they did (so did the FBI, just not as cooperatively as youd hope). DNC had crowdstrike investigate the leak, a highly respected firm. The FBI researched mirrors/blueprints/copies of the servers (not the actual physical hardware, which was researched by crowdstrike). I don't know why you assume nothing was done for a year.

Your last quote is quite the catch-22. No criminal charge is legit because you can always find a crime. It has zero value and is not indicative of anything.

Finally, Comey testified that Trump was not personally being investigated. That's the only indication we have right now and it's quite a leap to assume he is under investigation.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rkbabang on November 03, 2017, 05:23:49 AM


Is this not the height of insanity? How many times has he tried doing something on healthcare only to have career politicians like John McCain purposely sabotage it? It's going to be the same thing with taxes. You are already seeing several Republicans refusing to do anything.

This dude's healthcare went up 80% because that's what this Obamacare scam does.

Wait Gregmal, you are implying Trump is a successful executive who can turn this country around if only he was not tripped-up or backstabbed by his own people?

That is kinda like Hitler saying that he could've conquered Russia if only his general were comptent.  Comon, we all know now with hindsight Hitler was in waaay over his head...... Kinda like the Trump huh? I am sure if he is alive at ninety he'll bitch like that.

"His own people"?   I'm not a fan of Trump, but you have to admit that he is on his own.  The Republican party machine hates him almost as much as the Democrats do.  He has no people.  Especially not in congress.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: EliG on November 03, 2017, 08:04:24 PM
The only results that count are MAGA and that the Forgotten Men and Women Are Forgotten No Longer.  Then most is forgiven. 

The Joint Committee on Taxation, distributional estimate of the GOP tax bill:

Estate tax repeal is NOT included in the estimate.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNvn098XUAAAbzq.jpg)

Big Daddy is taking care of the forgotten MAGA people. They are getting tired of winning.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Jurgis on November 03, 2017, 08:12:12 PM
The only results that count are MAGA and that the Forgotten Men and Women Are Forgotten No Longer.  Then most is forgiven. 

The Joint Committee on Taxation, distributional estimate of the GOP tax bill:

Estate tax repeal is NOT included in the estimate.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNvn098XUAAAbzq.jpg)

Big Daddy is taking care of the forgotten MAGA people. They are getting tired of winning.

(http://elliotthall.me/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Its-good-to-be-the-king.jpg)
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rb on November 03, 2017, 10:10:03 PM
That chart is almost meaningless without the estate tax. The estate tax is 200B compared to the whole bill that blows a 1.5T hole (very fiscally responsible btw) so it's a big part of it. Once you factor that in it'll be way more skewed. Forgotten people rejoice. You're paying so that multimillionaire elites can have more money. Job well done.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on November 04, 2017, 08:39:30 AM
Case #4:

Triggered.  And doubling down.  Thanks for the additional example.

Also, confirmation bias working overtime.  Scott Adams?  I was channeling Rory Sutherland, and, I admit, badly.

More nothing. Zero substance, just rhetorical tricks ("if I act like I've won, some people will believe I'm smart and I've won" and "if I throw around words like triggered and cognitive bias and cognitive dissonance, surely people will read into it that I'm saying something clever").

Kind of like a con artist. Seems familiar these days...

+1!  Cheers!

Smiley Fratboy Parsad and Hairtrigger Liberty failing Prof. Munger's psychology classes.  Insane!  Sad!
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Investor20 on November 05, 2017, 05:43:54 PM

AUG 2016 (roughly 2-3 weeks later): Obama receives intelligence that Putin directly ordered and was involved in the cyberwarfare on the US
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/national-security/obama-putin-election-hacking/?utm_term=.bcab38c4146d
 
Stalin apparently said, Show me the man and I will show you the crime.  The gist of this is, police is supposed to investigate a crime, not a person.  But here we are investigating Trump, but the crime, the hacking, FBI never looked at the server.  FBI/DNC didn't do anything about the hacking even after they knew about it for an year.

George Papadopoulos' guilty plea was for lying to the FBI. One of the lies was about "dirt", which is known to be DNC emails. Importantly, GP knew of this dirt before joining the campaign and before it was publicly announced.

Yes  Papadopoulos plea was for lying to FBI.  Not for collusion. Neither are activities by Manafort are anything to do with Trump.  These charges are actually exculpatory as explained in below article, because SC is accepting that the Papadopoulos or Manafort actions have nothing to do with collusion.

In addition if you go thru the responses by higher level Trump campaign, they were not encouraging Papadopoulos. The details are in below article written by former NY public prosecutor Andrew McCarthy
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/453264/donald-trump-george-papadopoulos-indictment-exculpatory-trump

We can agree to disagree.  But I want police to pursue crimes, not people.  Sherlock Holmes solves a crime.  He does not investigate if a person is good or bad person.

Harvard law professor Dershowitz says:
“Manafort now is the first domino, and what Mueller wants to do is see him as the first domino, the second domino, the third domino, ultimately trying to get to the big domino, which is President Trump,” Dershowitz said on "Fox & Friends."

If Manafort has nothing to offer to assist Mueller’s larger investigation, then “he’s going to twist in the wind,” Dershowitz said.
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/357794-dershowitz-mueller-will-pressure-manafort-to-squeal-on-trump

I am strongly opposed to these tactics of arresting someone hoping they will give something about someone else & arresting that person hoping they will give something about some one else.....I want police to investigate crimes, not arrest someone to get someone else.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on November 06, 2017, 05:02:46 AM

AUG 2016 (roughly 2-3 weeks later): Obama receives intelligence that Putin directly ordered and was involved in the cyberwarfare on the US
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/national-security/obama-putin-election-hacking/?utm_term=.bcab38c4146d
 
Stalin apparently said, Show me the man and I will show you the crime.  The gist of this is, police is supposed to investigate a crime, not a person.  But here we are investigating Trump, but the crime, the hacking, FBI never looked at the server.  FBI/DNC didn't do anything about the hacking even after they knew about it for an year.

George Papadopoulos' guilty plea was for lying to the FBI. One of the lies was about "dirt", which is known to be DNC emails. Importantly, GP knew of this dirt before joining the campaign and before it was publicly announced.

Yes  Papadopoulos plea was for lying to FBI.  Not for collusion. Neither are activities by Manafort are anything to do with Trump.  These charges are actually exculpatory as explained in below article, because SC is accepting that the Papadopoulos or Manafort actions have nothing to do with collusion.

In addition if you go thru the responses by higher level Trump campaign, they were not encouraging Papadopoulos. The details are in below article written by former NY public prosecutor Andrew McCarthy
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/453264/donald-trump-george-papadopoulos-indictment-exculpatory-trump

We can agree to disagree.  But I want police to pursue crimes, not people.  Sherlock Holmes solves a crime.  He does not investigate if a person is good or bad person.

Harvard law professor Dershowitz says:
“Manafort now is the first domino, and what Mueller wants to do is see him as the first domino, the second domino, the third domino, ultimately trying to get to the big domino, which is President Trump,” Dershowitz said on "Fox & Friends."

If Manafort has nothing to offer to assist Mueller’s larger investigation, then “he’s going to twist in the wind,” Dershowitz said.
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/357794-dershowitz-mueller-will-pressure-manafort-to-squeal-on-trump

I am strongly opposed to these tactics of arresting someone hoping they will give something about someone else & arresting that person hoping they will give something about some one else.....I want police to investigate crimes, not arrest someone to get someone else.

What do you think collusion is? Seems like there has been a ton of "collusion" to me (secret or illegal conspiracy). It may not have been proven illegal yet, but Trump's team certainly operated a secret conspiracy.

No one is going to get charged for "collusion". It's a non-legal description of actions, from what I've read. By "collusion", folks are referring to alleged corruption, money laundering, conspiracy, espionage, FARA violations, and such. I'm not a lawyer or expert in this stuff but that's my understanding. The reason I mention the "dirt" is the DNC emails have been a continual part of "collusion" allegations.

In general, the collusion theory is based on the broad allegations that Trump and/or his campaign team (and/or other associates) accepted stolen material from and negotiated as an illegal representative of the US with Russia to carry out any illegal action (definition above, basically). I'm sure there's other allegations that I'm forgetting but this broadly summarizes the point of Mueller's broad scope of investigation (granted by Trump appointee). It's purposefully broad because IC has heavily hinted that this was a multi-year, premeditated operation (with a foreign intel arm, which means it's likely we are all going to learn a lot of spy jargon in the next 12 months). WSJ story just came out saying this goes back to at least 2015. Trump's Twitter suggests it could go back even earlier. Prior financial deals may be related to 2016 as a result (e.g. Manafort and soon to be others). Russia-Ukraine relations from 2005-present are certainly noteworthy with respect to present allegations.

If the first 2 indictments and guilty plea mean Trump is innocent then fantastic in my book. However, given the frequency of lying by all involved and obstruction-like actions of Trump, I think we should determine that with certainty.

It seems like crimes are being pursued. This exact legal tactic is how high level drug dealers and mob bosses are convicted. Similarly, the US passed the RICO act to prevent folks from getting away with crimes they committed, but for various reasons are hard to probe individually (think murder in the mob).

Mueller can only indict criminals. Much like my other posts (and what Dersh) has said, the burden of proof for Mueller is going to be much higher than for normal politicans, which is higher than for normal people. The point of all of this is to restore confidence.

Dersh is speculating, like left-wing outlets. Nothing says Trump is the target. I still believe that until there is reason to believe otherwise. Arresting Manafort, Flynn, and many underlings goes a long way to improve confidence. As long as the investigation is rigorous and unbiased, I'll support any result.

I do like Andrew McCarthy and I read this article before. I don't agree with him here but time will ultimately tell. As to the speed of the case: most mafia-related investigations take 3+ years (from what I've read). Mueller's been working just less than 6 months. We'll see I guess.

Only thing I'll add. GP's plea transcript stated that record destruction charge was dropped for cooperation and either the transcript or plea deal mentioned that further charges may be brought, even with full cooperation. Given recent analysis of Greek news from May 2016 and 2 previously undisclosed Trump campaign national security team meetings, I don't think we've heard the last of GP. I don't want to speculate in this thread but it seems worthwhile to mention since they were discovered after McCarthy's article.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/13/british-spies-first-to-spot-trump-team-links-russia

http://billmoyers.com/story/trump-russia-timeline/
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Investor20 on November 07, 2017, 02:36:20 AM

AUG 2016 (roughly 2-3 weeks later): Obama receives intelligence that Putin directly ordered and was involved in the cyberwarfare on the US
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/national-security/obama-putin-election-hacking/?utm_term=.bcab38c4146d
 
Stalin apparently said, Show me the man and I will show you the crime.  The gist of this is, police is supposed to investigate a crime, not a person.  But here we are investigating Trump, but the crime, the hacking, FBI never looked at the server.  FBI/DNC didn't do anything about the hacking even after they knew about it for an year.

George Papadopoulos' guilty plea was for lying to the FBI. One of the lies was about "dirt", which is known to be DNC emails. Importantly, GP knew of this dirt before joining the campaign and before it was publicly announced.

Yes  Papadopoulos plea was for lying to FBI.  Not for collusion. Neither are activities by Manafort are anything to do with Trump.  These charges are actually exculpatory as explained in below article, because SC is accepting that the Papadopoulos or Manafort actions have nothing to do with collusion.

In addition if you go thru the responses by higher level Trump campaign, they were not encouraging Papadopoulos. The details are in below article written by former NY public prosecutor Andrew McCarthy
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/453264/donald-trump-george-papadopoulos-indictment-exculpatory-trump

We can agree to disagree.  But I want police to pursue crimes, not people.  Sherlock Holmes solves a crime.  He does not investigate if a person is good or bad person.

Harvard law professor Dershowitz says:
“Manafort now is the first domino, and what Mueller wants to do is see him as the first domino, the second domino, the third domino, ultimately trying to get to the big domino, which is President Trump,” Dershowitz said on "Fox & Friends."

If Manafort has nothing to offer to assist Mueller’s larger investigation, then “he’s going to twist in the wind,” Dershowitz said.
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/357794-dershowitz-mueller-will-pressure-manafort-to-squeal-on-trump

I am strongly opposed to these tactics of arresting someone hoping they will give something about someone else & arresting that person hoping they will give something about some one else.....I want police to investigate crimes, not arrest someone to get someone else.

What do you think collusion is? Seems like there has been a ton of "collusion" to me (secret or illegal conspiracy). It may not have been proven illegal yet, but Trump's team certainly operated a secret conspiracy.

No one is going to get charged for "collusion". It's a non-legal description of actions, from what I've read. By "collusion", folks are referring to alleged corruption, money laundering, conspiracy, espionage, FARA violations, and such. I'm not a lawyer or expert in this stuff but that's my understanding. The reason I mention the "dirt" is the DNC emails have been a continual part of "collusion" allegations.

In general, the collusion theory is based on the broad allegations that Trump and/or his campaign team (and/or other associates) accepted stolen material from and negotiated as an illegal representative of the US with Russia to carry out any illegal action (definition above, basically). I'm sure there's other allegations that I'm forgetting but this broadly summarizes the point of Mueller's broad scope of investigation (granted by Trump appointee). It's purposefully broad because IC has heavily hinted that this was a multi-year, premeditated operation (with a foreign intel arm, which means it's likely we are all going to learn a lot of spy jargon in the next 12 months). WSJ story just came out saying this goes back to at least 2015. Trump's Twitter suggests it could go back even earlier. Prior financial deals may be related to 2016 as a result (e.g. Manafort and soon to be others). Russia-Ukraine relations from 2005-present are certainly noteworthy with respect to present allegations.

If the first 2 indictments and guilty plea mean Trump is innocent then fantastic in my book. However, given the frequency of lying by all involved and obstruction-like actions of Trump, I think we should determine that with certainty.

It seems like crimes are being pursued. This exact legal tactic is how high level drug dealers and mob bosses are convicted. Similarly, the US passed the RICO act to prevent folks from getting away with crimes they committed, but for various reasons are hard to probe individually (think murder in the mob).

Mueller can only indict criminals. Much like my other posts (and what Dersh) has said, the burden of proof for Mueller is going to be much higher than for normal politicans, which is higher than for normal people. The point of all of this is to restore confidence.

Dersh is speculating, like left-wing outlets. Nothing says Trump is the target. I still believe that until there is reason to believe otherwise. Arresting Manafort, Flynn, and many underlings goes a long way to improve confidence. As long as the investigation is rigorous and unbiased, I'll support any result.

I do like Andrew McCarthy and I read this article before. I don't agree with him here but time will ultimately tell. As to the speed of the case: most mafia-related investigations take 3+ years (from what I've read). Mueller's been working just less than 6 months. We'll see I guess.

Only thing I'll add. GP's plea transcript stated that record destruction charge was dropped for cooperation and either the transcript or plea deal mentioned that further charges may be brought, even with full cooperation. Given recent analysis of Greek news from May 2016 and 2 previously undisclosed Trump campaign national security team meetings, I don't think we've heard the last of GP. I don't want to speculate in this thread but it seems worthwhile to mention since they were discovered after McCarthy's article.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/13/british-spies-first-to-spot-trump-team-links-russia

http://billmoyers.com/story/trump-russia-timeline/

"Mueller's been working just less than 6 months."

But Feds have been working on this for 1.5 years. Its more than dozen agencies. They even wire tapped Manafort when he was campaign manager during a presidential election. Manafort was prior investigated in 2014:

"A secret order authorized by the court that handles the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) began after Manafort became the subject of an FBI investigation that began in 2014. It centered on work done by a group of Washington consulting firms for Ukraine's former ruling party, the sources told CNN.
The surveillance was discontinued at some point last year for lack of evidence, according to one of the sources."

"The FBI then restarted the surveillance after obtaining a new FISA warrant that extended at least into early this year.
Sources say the second warrant was part of the FBI's efforts to investigate ties between Trump campaign associates and suspected Russian operatives."
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/09/18/politics/paul-manafort-government-wiretapped-fisa-russians/index.html?CNNPolitics=Tw

"The surveillance was discontinued at some point last year for lack of evidence...". This is my concern.


Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on November 07, 2017, 05:25:42 AM
"Mueller's been working just less than 6 months."

But Feds have been working on this for 1.5 years. Its more than dozen agencies. They even wire tapped Manafort when he was campaign manager during a presidential election. Manafort was prior investigated in 2014:

Yikes, I forgot the FBI investigation started July 2016. From what we know, it is based on information obtained during FISA surveillance (which has been referred to as wiring taping prior to 2002 or so). I suppose the only difference between then and now, with respect to PM alone, is that Lynch/Carlin never prosecuted PM. Not trying to imply anything with that but it's worth pointing out. Why they didn't (and why we are now) is an important question that needs to be answered during all of this (maybe they weren't done, didn't have enough evidence, political, something in between, or something else altogether).

"A secret order authorized by the court that handles the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) began after Manafort became the subject of an FBI investigation that began in 2014. It centered on work done by a group of Washington consulting firms for Ukraine's former ruling party, the sources told CNN.
The surveillance was discontinued at some point last year for lack of evidence, according to one of the sources."

"The FBI then restarted the surveillance after obtaining a new FISA warrant that extended at least into early this year.
Sources say the second warrant was part of the FBI's efforts to investigate ties between Trump campaign associates and suspected Russian operatives."
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/09/18/politics/paul-manafort-government-wiretapped-fisa-russians/index.html?CNNPolitics=Tw

"The surveillance was discontinued at some point last year for lack of evidence...". This is my concern.

Yes, this is a concern I get. Thanks for bringing this up because this is where I can see people/parties/whatever having reservations. Best we can tell, this counter intel probe into Trump associates (which morphed into investigating Trump Campaign/Russia, led by Mueller) is based on FISA surveillance (which may be some combination of targeted/non-targeted and warranted/warrantless surveillance, for various reasons - I don't think we have clarification on this yet or I've missed it).

I don't know what this means for the Mueller probe. These are the other questions they will eventually have to answer in detail. Who did they surveil? Why? How long? What did they find? Why did the FBI open an investigation? Was it directly related to surveillance (or vice versa)? Why did it merit an expansion of the probe? And, of course, was Trump aware of any of this, how aware was he, for how long, and was this considered when he fired Comey?

I started posting because I didn't like that these threads were polarized and I thought I could add value. I think our discussion has made for a pretty good summary of where the probe is, how we got here, and why both sides have valid reasons to be yelling at each other. It was cool having someone lay out a different viewpoint that is also consistent and well-informed on the topic. Cool stuff. Ultimately, I'm with you on concerns. I really hope we get satisfactory answers to most or all of these basic questions/concerns.

Some interesting links I've saved since I've been following all this:
https://www.lawfareblog.com/director-national-intelligence-releases-2016-transparency-report   (gets in to *estimated* stats on most concerns mentioned by media)
http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/741586-nsa-fact-sheet-on-section-702-of-fisa-and.html
https://www.lawfareblog.com/topic/fisa-215-collection
https://www.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/analysis/Government%20Surveillance%20Factsheet.pdf
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on November 21, 2017, 10:10:12 AM
This Thanksgiving season, Katherine Graham in her grave can be grateful that son Donald unloaded this rag awhile ago.

Case #5:  http://www.newsweek.com/how-murderer-charles-manson-and-donald-trump-used-language-gain-followers-717399

The logic technicians on this board will see the basic fallacy of the undistributed middle, in the form of an enthymeme.

The students of rhetoric here will see a propaganda fail, a variant of the "Trump=Hitler" meme.  Sadly, many on this board used it last year.  You know who you are!

Here, Newsweek fails on two counts:  it can neither think logically, nor convince persuasively.  I've just filled out a 5150 on FakeNewsweek.

Time will tell whether this is one of the last gasps of the "Trump=Hitler" hysteria.  If this post fails to trigger anti-Trump board members to respond by doubling down, then the delusion may be dead.





Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on March 09, 2018, 04:47:46 PM
Intense cognitive dissonance is the hallmark of TDS.  The Mind-reader Illusion is one of the signs of cognitive dissonance.

Compare these two samples of mind-reading:

1.  In other words, because Trump has both a massive ego and virtually no understanding of foreign policy, he foolishly leaped at the bait dangled by the South and North Koreans. . . .  Imagine Trump, for example, thinking he could make a deal with Iran with no expert preparation, no tedious diplomacy, no disclosure by Iran of its program, no agreed-upon parameters — simply by getting in the room with the Supreme Leader and telling him what’s what. . . .  Trump thinks this is like a real-estate deal. He marches into the room, barks a few lines, sets a price and then goes out for a steak dinner with the guy on the other side — all the details to be worked out later. In fact, the details are the entire ballgame. . . .  The fact that, given his druthers, Trump would have marched into a room without preconditions with the North Korean thug tells you everything you need to know about how erratic, dangerous and irrational he can be.

2.  Trump wants more tariffs. He bad mouths trade any chance he gets, gets out of free trade treaties and generally feels like the US economy should be more closed on itself rather than trading with the rest of the world. This is likely because he doesn't understand the difference between a zero-sum game and a non-zero sum game, or that it's not because something is called a "deficit" that it's necessarily bad (if it was phrased as "the US is the biggest purchaser in the world because it's wealthiest and so it buys more from it's much smaller trading partners than they buy from it" I bet he'd feel less like everybody was taking advantage of the country -- it would also make sense to look at where the economic value flows rather than just look at gross revenues from trade with various countries). He also feels like any other country strengthening is somehow taking something away from the US (zero sum game mentality again), so he has to put down others constantly, even allies, rather than help them. . . .  You thinking that this is some masterful 3D chess by Trump is still the old Scott Adams thinking from pre-election days when people thought it was all an act to achieve his goals. Well, the past year has shown that it's really a big SNAFU and that there's no plan and he's just whining it and changing his mind based on the last adviser or lobbyist that he spoke to and who controls access to him or what's on some partisan TV show that evening (literally without fact-checking any of it). So who's naive?

Which one was written by Hairtrigger Liberty?  (Reply #195 in http://www.cornerofberkshireandfairfax.ca/forum/general-discussion/mr-trump-to-to-impose-stiff-tariffs-on-steel-and-aluminum/)

Which one was written by Jennifer Rubin of the Washington Post?  https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2018/03/09/damage-control-at-white-house-to-reverse-trumps-stunning-blunder/?utm_term=.6d27d7d8a2d0
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rukawa on March 10, 2018, 05:09:34 AM
I'm no fan of Trump but I think TDS is real. Interestingly it has a historical parallel...Reagan Derangement Syndrome. The funny thing about RDS is that liberals are still pretty deranged in their thinking about Reagan even after he basically brought down communism which is probably the single greatest achievement of any president in the last 60 years.

The thinking about Reagan was that he was some moronic, has-been actor who was enormously dangerous, mean-spirited and malevolent. And that the 1980's was a horrible decade of greed.

So it doesn't matter what Trump does. He will be viewed as evil by liberals now and for the next 30 years regardless of foreign policy or economic accomplishments.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/06/the-reagan-show-review-gipper-still-drives-liberals-insane/

You also have the equivalents although less extreme on the conservative side..conservative thinking about Obama and Clinton has been deranged. Clinton especially so.

Listen to the opening of the Reagan documentary....it literally sounds ominous:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07BHVGm-Y6s
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: DTEJD1997 on March 10, 2018, 09:18:28 AM
I'm no fan of Trump but I think TDS is real. Interestingly it has a historical parallel...Reagan Derangement Syndrome. The funny thing about RDS is that liberals are still pretty deranged in their thinking about Reagan even after he basically brought down communism which is probably the single greatest achievement of any president in the last 60 years.

The thinking about Reagan was that he was some moronic, has-been actor who was enormously dangerous, mean-spirited and malevolent. And that the 1980's was a horrible decade of greed.

So it doesn't matter what Trump does. He will be viewed as evil by liberals now and for the next 30 years regardless of foreign policy or economic accomplishments.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/06/the-reagan-show-review-gipper-still-drives-liberals-insane/

You also have the equivalents although less extreme on the conservative side..conservative thinking about Obama and Clinton has been deranged. Clinton especially so.

Listen to the opening of the Reagan documentary....it literally sounds ominous:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07BHVGm-Y6s
I can remember when Reagan was elected.  A lot of people lost their minds.  It is not as bad as Trump...but the 24 hour news cycle was not really going in 1980.  Many, many, many "news people" ridiculed Reagan for his Jelly Beans, being a cowboy, and of course getting us into a nuclear war.

I can also just remember the last part of the Carter presidency.  So many people were out of work/having financial difficulty.  The problems with inflation...oil, gasoline & heating your home.  Of course, the worst of all was the hostage situation at the Iranian Embassy.  Mr. Carter was probably a decent enough human being.  Somebody you want for your next door neighbor maybe.  President?  You've got to be kidding!  He was ineffectual, totally outgunned & outclassed by his problems & enemies.  A truly TERRIBLE president as shown by the results.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rb on March 10, 2018, 11:06:48 AM
You also have the equivalents although less extreme on the conservative side..conservative thinking about Obama and Clinton has been deranged. Clinton especially so.
I'm sorry I don't mean to interrupt the pitty party. Plus I don't know much about the reaction to Reagan's election so I can't add much to that. But your comment really made me laugh.

Clinton was impeached because he lied about getting a blow job. How quaint that must seem today. And I guess the whole birther thing was just a minor misunderstanding. A significant part of conservatives think that Obama is a muslim who wanted to implement sharia law. If that is less extreme, then making fun of one's jelly beans must be really, really bad.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rkbabang on March 10, 2018, 05:29:45 PM
You also have the equivalents although less extreme on the conservative side..conservative thinking about Obama and Clinton has been deranged. Clinton especially so.
I'm sorry I don't mean to interrupt the pitty party. Plus I don't know much about the reaction to Reagan's election so I can't add much to that. But your comment really made me laugh.

Clinton was impeached because he lied about getting a blow job. How quaint that must seem today. And I guess the whole birther thing was just a minor misunderstanding. A significant part of conservatives think that Obama is a muslim who wanted to implement sharia law. If that is less extreme, then making fun of one's jelly beans must be really, really bad.

You are talking about fringe conspiracy theorist with the birther thing, we are talking about the mainstream press and the vast majority of the liberals left.  And the Blowjob thing by a young intern in the Oval Office, could you imagine if Trump did that? No Republican could ever get away with such a thing. You are simply delusional.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rb on March 10, 2018, 06:11:52 PM
You also have the equivalents although less extreme on the conservative side..conservative thinking about Obama and Clinton has been deranged. Clinton especially so.
I'm sorry I don't mean to interrupt the pitty party. Plus I don't know much about the reaction to Reagan's election so I can't add much to that. But your comment really made me laugh.

Clinton was impeached because he lied about getting a blow job. How quaint that must seem today. And I guess the whole birther thing was just a minor misunderstanding. A significant part of conservatives think that Obama is a muslim who wanted to implement sharia law. If that is less extreme, then making fun of one's jelly beans must be really, really bad.

You are talking about fringe conspiracy theorist with the birther thing, we are talking about the mainstream press and the vast majority of the liberals left.  And the Blowjob thing by a young intern in the Oval Office, could you imagine if Trump did that? No Republican could ever get away with such a thing. You are simply delusional.
Cmon man, are you kidding me?

The chief birther is the current president of the United States. I wouldn't exactly call that fringe. As for what republicans can get away with, you have pussy grabbing and the family values people are giving a republican mulligans to bang playboy bunnies and porn stars while the wife's at home with a newborn. I'd say that a republican can get away with quite a bit and that I'm likely not delusional - though one cannot be certain of such things.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rkbabang on March 12, 2018, 05:52:22 AM
You also have the equivalents although less extreme on the conservative side..conservative thinking about Obama and Clinton has been deranged. Clinton especially so.
I'm sorry I don't mean to interrupt the pitty party. Plus I don't know much about the reaction to Reagan's election so I can't add much to that. But your comment really made me laugh.

Clinton was impeached because he lied about getting a blow job. How quaint that must seem today. And I guess the whole birther thing was just a minor misunderstanding. A significant part of conservatives think that Obama is a muslim who wanted to implement sharia law. If that is less extreme, then making fun of one's jelly beans must be really, really bad.

You are talking about fringe conspiracy theorist with the birther thing, we are talking about the mainstream press and the vast majority of the liberals left.  And the Blowjob thing by a young intern in the Oval Office, could you imagine if Trump did that? No Republican could ever get away with such a thing. You are simply delusional.
Cmon man, are you kidding me?

The chief birther is the current president of the United States. I wouldn't exactly call that fringe. As for what republicans can get away with, you have pussy grabbing and the family values people are giving a republican mulligans to bang playboy bunnies and porn stars while the wife's at home with a newborn. I'd say that a republican can get away with quite a bit and that I'm likely not delusional - though one cannot be certain of such things.

I don't think you are able to see it.  It is like asking a Red Sox fan to see some nuanced thing from the Yankees point of view.  A Yankees fan would see it, someone who isn't a baseball fan would see it, but the Red Sox fan never will (especially if that thing exists on the other side as well even if in differing amounts).

I hate both sides and always have.  I voted in every election in which I was eligible from 1990 until 2008 (federal, state, local, general, primary) and I have never voted for a person who has won their election, not once.  I am on no team and you could say I am not a (political) sports fan at all.  I hate the game and everyone in it.  I hate what they do, I hate how they talk, I hate how they think.

That said, some observations I can make is that almost all of the mainstream media is skewed as far left as fox news is right. The difference being that everyone knows that Fox news is skewed right and the left wing media tries to portray itself as "unbiased" and somehow more legitimate.

There was a lot of anti-Reagan sentiment in the media, I was old enough to remember that, but nothing like what we see with Trump.  I have never in my life seen such an overreaction by such a large amount of people in society to a political figure.  I'm sorry, but Trump Derangement Syndrome is both entirely real and completely unprecedented.

BTW there have been presidents who have cheated on their wives with bimbos before going back to long before we were born.   Nothing Trump is even accused of is radically different.   He never had sex with a young employee in the Oval Office.  And I didn't personally think even that was such big deal (lying about it under oath was far worse), but to each his own.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on March 12, 2018, 10:34:08 AM
Former NY Times editor Jill Abramson:

That’s why I carry a little plastic Obama doll in my purse. I pull him out every now and then to remind myself that the United States had a progressive, African American president until very recently. Some people find this strange, but you have to take comfort where you can find it in Donald Trump’s America.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/07/primaries-democratic-wave-2020
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on March 12, 2018, 11:45:10 AM
According to a recent poll, a majority of R's believe there is no evidence of a conspiracy between Trump's campaign and the Russian government. Not that it wasn't a big-enough deal to impeach or that he shouldn't be charged while in office. They believe that there is literally no evidence. Baffling.

Similarly, the following has been ignored or overlooked because Trump can do no wrong: (1) the DNC hack (we extradited one of the hackers who has admitted to the crime in a European court); (2) alleging of crimes of political opponents without evidence or even follow-through; (3) nepotism; (4) cronyism; (5) emoluments; (6) Uranium One; (7) "no Russians ever -> No collusion -> Collusion is not a crime -> I didn't personally collude" transition of story; (8) Mexico will pay for the wall, taking guns; (9) cheating on his wife; (10) lying to the public as his first act (crowd size) and every day since; (11) attempting to fire the special counsel; (12) asking the WH Counsel to lie about Trump asking him to fire the special counsel; (13) saying the election was "rigged" before the election; (14) name-calling every political opponent (which we are now seeing by others in the primaries); (15) asking Russia to release Hillary's "deleted emails" (surely your joking, Mr. Trump); (16) Central Park 5 newspaper ad; (17) lying about his business success (let's not forget the Trump U fraud, Trump Casino money laundering, & Trump Tower fraud that wasn't prosecuted); (18) Hiring Flynn despite specific warnings; (19) Firing Flynn only because the MSM made the story publicly known; (20) Asking Comey to drop the investigation in to Flynn; (21) Asking Comey to drop his investigation; (22) Firing Comey when he wouldn't publicly clear Trump; (23) Lying to the public about why he fired Comey (by contradicting himself within 48 hours); (24) Sharing code-word-level Top Secret intelligence with Russia; (25) not enacting Russian sanctions; (26) telling folks not to trust the intelligence community (which has all the smoking-gun-like evidence on Trump and might be affecting his opinion here) and the FBI; and on and on.

I could continue on for a while without Googling. None of this has anything to do with policy preference. That's what's crazy. Folks overlook all of this and more for reasons I can't understand. I get folks believe different methods of governing are more effective than others, but Trump is quite clearly abusing power unlike anyone before him.

We should start a topic about what the parties have in common before we all forget in the coming months. At least we know TDS hit most Americans indiscriminately. :)
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on March 12, 2018, 01:03:43 PM
According to a recent poll, a majority of R's believe there is no evidence of a conspiracy between Trump's campaign and the Russian government. Not that it wasn't a big-enough deal to impeach or that he shouldn't be charged while in office. They believe that there is literally no evidence. Baffling.

Similarly, the following has been ignored or overlooked because Trump can do no wrong: (1) the DNC hack (we extradited one of the hackers who has admitted to the crime in a European court); (2) alleging of crimes of political opponents without evidence or even follow-through; (3) nepotism; (4) cronyism; (5) emoluments; (6) Uranium One; (7) "no Russians ever -> No collusion -> Collusion is not a crime -> I didn't personally collude" transition of story; (8) Mexico will pay for the wall, taking guns; (9) cheating on his wife; (10) lying to the public as his first act (crowd size) and every day since; (11) attempting to fire the special counsel; (12) asking the WH Counsel to lie about Trump asking him to fire the special counsel; (13) saying the election was "rigged" before the election; (14) name-calling every political opponent (which we are now seeing by others in the primaries); (15) asking Russia to release Hillary's "deleted emails" (surely your joking, Mr. Trump); (16) Central Park 5 newspaper ad; (17) lying about his business success (let's not forget the Trump U fraud, Trump Casino money laundering, & Trump Tower fraud that wasn't prosecuted); (18) Hiring Flynn despite specific warnings; (19) Firing Flynn only because the MSM made the story publicly known; (20) Asking Comey to drop the investigation in to Flynn; (21) Asking Comey to drop his investigation; (22) Firing Comey when he wouldn't publicly clear Trump; (23) Lying to the public about why he fired Comey (by contradicting himself within 48 hours); (24) Sharing code-word-level Top Secret intelligence with Russia; (25) not enacting Russian sanctions; (26) telling folks not to trust the intelligence community (which has all the smoking-gun-like evidence on Trump and might be affecting his opinion here) and the FBI; and on and on.

I could continue on for a while without Googling. None of this has anything to do with policy preference. That's what's crazy. Folks overlook all of this and more for reasons I can't understand. I get folks believe different methods of governing are more effective than others, but Trump is quite clearly abusing power unlike anyone before him.

We should start a topic about what the parties have in common before we all forget in the coming months. At least we know TDS hit most Americans indiscriminately. :)

Since I intended this thread's topic to be in the realm of cognitive science, I'll try to limit my comments to the psychological.

If you started out anti-Trump, your recitation of the evidence is impressive and convincing. 

If you started out pro-Trump, that incoherent hodgepodge of facts/non-facts only looks like "evidence" but is not evidence.

That's confirmation bias.  Because of prior bias, both sides have limited credibility when it comes to interpreting the "evidence," and what you say and what I say might be safely ignored.

Much more credible would be a liberal, heavily inclined to be anti-Trump from the beginning, coming to the conclusion that the Russia thing is a big nothing.  That person's assessment of the data feels more objective because it goes against their own bias.  Like Van Jones of CNN, or Alan Dershowitz, among many others.

Can anyone think of a pro-Trump pundit (specifically, not a conservative Republican anti-Trumper, of whom there are many) who says Trump is guilty?

Meanwhile, others may be coming around, like SNL:

https://www.cnn.com/videos/cnnmoney/2018/03/11/snl-the-bachelor-robert-muller-investigation-orig-gs.cnn



Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on March 12, 2018, 01:50:09 PM
Quote
Much more credible would be a liberal, heavily inclined to be anti-Trump from the beginning, coming to the conclusion that the Russia thing is a big nothing.  That person's assessment of the data feels more objective because it goes against their own bias.  Like Van Jones of CNN, or Alan Dershowitz, among many others.

Can anyone think of a pro-Trump pundit (specifically, not a conservative Republican anti-Trumper, of whom there are many) who says Trump is guilty?

I'm just chiming in here, but speaking of cognitive biases, your post suggests that simply changing one's mind is enough to indicate credibility, implying a level of logical reasoning. I don't think that's true at all.

The only thing that is actually credible is a rational assessment of the available facts.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on March 12, 2018, 03:00:40 PM
@cobafdek: Chris Wallace, Shepard Smith, a couple other folks on Fox News whose names I can't recall have been very factual about everything imo, Sam Nunberg, Felix Sater, David French, and various former GW Bush appointees. I'm not sure if you'd count Senators Flake, Gowdy, Burr, Sasse, and the indicted folks that have decided to cooperate with Mueller. It's a hard question because there's just not enough that is publicly known yet relative to what would be required to say guilty/not guilty.

Out of curiosity, who do you think would have the biggest impact on Trump supporters' opinion if they changed their mind?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on March 12, 2018, 03:38:11 PM
Quote
Much more credible would be a liberal, heavily inclined to be anti-Trump from the beginning, coming to the conclusion that the Russia thing is a big nothing.  That person's assessment of the data feels more objective because it goes against their own bias.  Like Van Jones of CNN, or Alan Dershowitz, among many others.

Can anyone think of a pro-Trump pundit (specifically, not a conservative Republican anti-Trumper, of whom there are many) who says Trump is guilty?

I'm just chiming in here, but speaking of cognitive biases, your post suggests that simply changing one's mind is enough to indicate credibility, implying a level of logical reasoning. I don't think that's true at all.

There was nothing in my post about "changing one's mind."  I'm only commenting on relative credibility, keeping in mind that credibility and truth value are not necessarily the same thing. 

Schwab711's assessment may be completely true, and it is credible to some extent.  But it would not be as credible if, say, Sean Hannity were to say Trump and Russia were collaborating to a criminal/impeachable extent.

Conversely, Van Jones and Alan Dershowitz may be more credible to me and other pro-Trumpers, but eventually may be proved to be wrong. 

The only thing that is actually credible is a rational assessment of the available facts.

We think this is true, but cognitive science tells us that in emotionally-charged issues in complex arenas of life, we humans can't agree on what's rational and what are the facts.  It's a little bit easier to say what is more credible (which, again, does not mean it's true), but not by much.


Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on March 12, 2018, 03:45:38 PM
@cobafdek: Chris Wallace, Shepard Smith, a couple other folks on Fox News whose names I can't recall have been very factual about everything imo, Sam Nunberg, Felix Sater, David French, and various former GW Bush appointees. I'm not sure if you'd count Senators Flake, Gowdy, Burr, Sasse, and the indicted folks that have decided to cooperate with Mueller. It's a hard question because there's just not enough that is publicly known yet relative to what would be required to say guilty/not guilty.

Out of curiosity, who do you think would have the biggest impact on Trump supporters' opinion if they changed their mind?

I'm not sure any of those names are avid pro-Trumpers.  They may seem more "factual," but none are really saying Trump is suspect.  Nunberg is on record saying that Trump royally screwed him, and sounds like Nunberg hates him on a personal level.  GW Bushies are generally anti-Trump.  Flake is avowedly anti-Trump.

It may have to be at the top level of pro-Trumpness for there to be any meaningful dent in Trump's base support:  Sean Hannity, Mark Levin, Tucker Carlson, Ivanka Trump, etc.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on March 12, 2018, 07:20:30 PM
@cobafdek: Fair enough. I do appreciate that you are strict with your purpose in that you are interested in how the folks process this issue (which is not the same as LC ascribing those opinions to you - even if you coincidentally share these opinions).

Always good debating these ideas with you. It helps me a lot. Definitely similar thinking but different perspective, which is awesome from my POV.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on March 13, 2018, 11:27:45 AM
Idk...we can disagree on the impact of biases and/or whether objective reality exists. Personally I think everyone reads these Charlie Munger/behavioral psychology things and goes overboard.

I think time is better spent creating metrics which are important to you and measuring performance against those.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on March 13, 2018, 12:10:53 PM
Idk...we can disagree on the impact of biases and/or whether objective reality exists. Personally I think everyone reads these Charlie Munger/behavioral psychology things and goes overboard.

I think time is better spent creating metrics which are important to you and measuring performance against those.

Is that how you picked your wife?  :) ;) :(
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on March 13, 2018, 12:35:15 PM
Yes but I will not disclose the metrics I used  ;)
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rkbabang on March 13, 2018, 02:23:03 PM
Yes but I will not disclose the metrics I used  ;)

+1, if you did pick your wife (some cultures this doesn't happen) how else would you?  Randomly?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rb on March 13, 2018, 03:26:57 PM
Yes but I will not disclose the metrics I used  ;)

+1, if you did pick your wife (some cultures this doesn't happen) how else would you?  Randomly?
Crazy though: Who knows? Given that the divorce rate is around 50% random selection may very well be a better method.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on March 13, 2018, 10:39:46 PM
Yes but I will not disclose the metrics I used  ;)

+1, if you did pick your wife (some cultures this doesn't happen) how else would you?  Randomly?
Crazy though: Who knows? Given that the divorce rate is around 50% random selection may very well be a better method.
The maths... :o
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rkbabang on March 14, 2018, 06:21:21 AM
Yes but I will not disclose the metrics I used  ;)

+1, if you did pick your wife (some cultures this doesn't happen) how else would you?  Randomly?
Crazy though: Who knows? Given that the divorce rate is around 50% random selection may very well be a better method.

I read somewhere (I could google this, but I'm too lazy today) that way less than 50% of 1st marriages end in divorce, but the percentage of 2nd, 3rd, 4th+ marriages that end in divorce is sky high.  So while most marriages end in divorce, most people who get married stay married.  It is the same people getting divorced over and over again.   Maybe it is just that some people need to rethink their metrics, or it could just be that some people are jerks and no one can live with them for long.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on March 14, 2018, 08:24:33 AM
Idk...we can disagree on the impact of biases and/or whether objective reality exists. Personally I think everyone reads these Charlie Munger/behavioral psychology things and goes overboard.

I think time is better spent creating metrics which are important to you and measuring performance against those.

I will consider this a concession and declare victory!  Because what's in bold print could be a slip of tongue when you really meant metrics which are objectively true.

The way to prove my point is to compare the metrics of the group of your friends who want nude pictures of your wife, with the metrics of those who say, "My God!  LC!  What were you thinking!?"

How objective can those metrics be?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on March 14, 2018, 09:45:35 AM
I chose my words carefully because you were previously arguing that people as a whole can't even agree on what is objective.

By choosing a subjective metric, we can begin figuring out whether that is a good metric or not.

So we can go back to determining credibility as an example. One can say "I will measure credibility as how much this person agrees with myself". E.g. we both like Jesus Trump and delicious Russian vodka, and hate Commies Liberals and lingering halitosis, therefore I will find u more credible than someone else.

Or an even better example is from you when you said that you measure credibility as the distance of one's conclusion from one's personal biases. If you were a KKK member and had a life changing moment and threw away your racist beliefs, you are now more credible than someone else.

Now we've actually taken a stab at defining the problem and we can argue over the metric chosen, rather than argue over whether objective reality exists.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on March 14, 2018, 01:24:51 PM
Or an even better example is from you when you said that you measure credibility as the distance of one's conclusion from one's personal biases. If you were a KKK member and had a life changing moment and threw away your racist beliefs, you are now more credible than someone else.

Maybe I think you've got it, but not quite.

The Republicans on the House Intelligence Committee have concluded there was no Russia collusion.  The Democrats' report will predictably conclude or insinuate the opposite.  Is either side credible?  Only to their partisans. 

Now suppose Devin Nunes writes an independent opinion saying, after examining the evidence, that Trump did collude.  At the same time, Adam Schiff writes his independent report concluding there was no collusion after all.  Because both look like they did not filter the evidence through their expected predicted mental model, both look more credible, compared to their partisan colleagues.  Credible not so much because they changed their minds, but because it appears they did not use their pre-existing filter on reality, and maybe tried to be objective.

Now we've actually taken a stab at defining the problem and we can argue over the metric chosen, rather than argue over whether objective reality exists.

Good.  But here is another example of the inevitable problem with the human brain thinking it directly perceives reality, as opposed to perceiving through a filter on reality.  It makes someone see things that aren't there. 

Nowhere, from my first post here, did anybody question the existence of objective reality.  People who believe I did are literally imagining it, so they look insane, even if they really are not insane (see many of the early replies). 

Imaginary hallucinations are a big feature of TDS, it's so easy to find examples.




Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on March 14, 2018, 03:42:00 PM
Quote
The Republicans on the House Intelligence Committee have concluded there was no Russia collusion.  The Democrats' report will predictably conclude or insinuate the opposite.  Is either side credible?  Only to their partisans. 

Now suppose Devin Nunes writes an independent opinion saying, after examining the evidence, that Trump did collude.  At the same time, Adam Schiff writes his independent report concluding there was no collusion after all.  Because both look like they did not filter the evidence through their expected predicted mental model, both look more credible, compared to their partisan colleagues.  Credible not so much because they changed their minds, but because it appears they did not use their pre-existing filter on reality, and maybe tried to be objective.

This is no way to determine anything. You are assuming a multitude of things which all have to occur for your conclusion to be valid. It's such a roundabout way to conclude anything. Why not look at the facts, look at the analysis, look at the conclusion drawn, and make your own determination as to what happened or who is biased or who is not credible?

Because right now, instead of looking at the logic behind these people's conclusions, you are assuming these people are biased (without providing evidence to support it), AND you are assuming their conclusions are a result of that bias (again without providing evidence), AND you are assuming your own biases are not evident when you make these previous assumptions (with no evidence of this). Maybe the democrats are super biased, but also happen to be right? Maybe the independent reviewers are super biased but the republicans are not biased, yet they both came to the same conclusion. Again, this method is no way to determine anything. 

Quote
Good.  But here is another example of the inevitable problem with the human brain thinking it directly perceives reality, as opposed to perceiving through a filter on reality.  It makes someone see things that aren't there. 

Nowhere, from my first post here, did anybody question the existence of objective reality
Okay, but it's difficult to know what you mean when you say seemingly contradictory things such as, "in emotionally-charged issues in complex arenas of life, we humans can't agree on what's rational and what are the facts." I mean, Liberty brought this issue up in the second post in this very thread.

The first question is: What are the facts?
Once we know that, we can each interpret those facts to determine our own conclusions. Then we can all determine who is "deranged" or not.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on March 14, 2018, 04:30:23 PM
Quote
The Republicans on the House Intelligence Committee have concluded there was no Russia collusion.  The Democrats' report will predictably conclude or insinuate the opposite.  Is either side credible?  Only to their partisans. 

Now suppose Devin Nunes writes an independent opinion saying, after examining the evidence, that Trump did collude.  At the same time, Adam Schiff writes his independent report concluding there was no collusion after all.  Because both look like they did not filter the evidence through their expected predicted mental model, both look more credible, compared to their partisan colleagues.  Credible not so much because they changed their minds, but because it appears they did not use their pre-existing filter on reality, and maybe tried to be objective.

This is no way to determine anything. You are assuming a multitude of things which all have to occur for your conclusion to be valid. It's such a roundabout way to determine truth. Why not just look at the facts, look at the analysis, look at the conclusion drawn, and make your own determination on what happened or who is biased or who is not credible?

Because right now, instead of looking at the logic behind these people's conclusions, you are assuming these people are biased (without providing evidence to support it), AND you are assuming their conclusions are a result of that bias (again without providing evidence). Maybe the dems are super biased but also happen to be right? Maybe the independent reviewers are super biased but the republicans are not biased, yet they both came to the same conclusion. Again, no way to determine credibility. 

Quote
Good.  But here is another example of the inevitable problem with the human brain thinking it directly perceives reality, as opposed to perceiving through a filter on reality.  It makes someone see things that aren't there. 

Nowhere, from my first post here, did anybody question the existence of objective reality
Okay, but it's difficult to know what you mean when you say seemingly contradictory things such as, "in emotionally-charged issues in complex arenas of life, we humans can't agree on what's rational and what are the facts." I mean, Liberty brought this issue up in the second post in this very thread.

The first question is: What are the facts?
Once we know that, we can each interpret those facts to determine our own conclusions. Then we can all determine who is "deranged" or not.

My communication skills must be limited.  There's so much to unpack in the above that I don't know where to begin.  Let's just say it's a good example of cognitive science denial.

I formerly used your "rational" approach in arguing with people to try to change their minds. Outside of mathematics and the physical sciences, you'll probably find out over the years and decades that it is futile, and rarely works in issues of real life, such as politics.

Check out this cognitive scientist and linguist.  Maybe you'll find my points a tiny bit more "credible" because this guy is also an anti-Trumper.  He has practical tips based on his research science for all the anti-Trumpers on this board who will continue to be ineffective and ridiculous in their messaging.  Unless the anti-Trumpers learn even the basics of this non-intuitive stuff, Trump will continue to win.  So you can think of this also as my attempt to help your side.  Meantime, I'll continue to enjoy my President!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2u06oCxfv8

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on March 14, 2018, 04:52:00 PM
Thank you for this interesting discussion.
Somehow, this is related to the spectrum joining intuition and insight.
Relevant for investment decisions.
Humans need to develop and maintain intuitive decison making for most activities.
But all decisions/opinions (political or otherwise) can be improved through an analytical process.
Isn't this what Kahneman describes with fast and slow thinking?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksopQLMQsq8
Tell me about your assumptions and reasoning process so we can share (and compare). :)
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Spekulatius on March 14, 2018, 05:06:05 PM
Is there a pill in the works against TDS? I would surely hope so, since it would be a billion $ blockbuster. I think the closest one to buy right now is pot that when liberally applied, makes you care much less. 8).
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on March 14, 2018, 05:07:45 PM
Quote
My communication skills must be limited.  There's so much to unpack in the above that I don't know where to begin.  Let's just say it's a good example of cognitive science denial.


Hey that's fine, we can end the discussion. It's OK by me to agree to disagree. And thanks for the link but I'm not trying to learn tools of persuasion.

Quote
Outside of mathematics and the physical sciences, you'll probably find out over the years and decades that it is futile, and rarely works in issues of real life, such as politics.
I'm a mathematician in "real life" and I think history would show that math and science are just as worthwhile as any other endeavor. As Cardboard mentioned above, I don't believe there is anything to lose from performing scientific analysis. And finally, that came off as a condescending thing of you to say.

Quote
But all decisions/opinions (political or otherwise) can be improved through an analytical process.
...
Tell me about your assumptions and reasoning process so we can share (and compare). :)

I agree wholeheartedly.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on March 14, 2018, 08:10:52 PM
Hey that's fine, we can end the discussion. It's OK by me to agree to disagree. And thanks for the link but I'm not trying to learn tools of persuasion.

As a self-appointed T.A. in Prof. Munger's psychology course, I add you to the list of flunkards among the board members.  Sad!  I can assure you that you don't know what you're missing out on.  Among other things, you would have been more likely to avoid the following remarkable hallucination:

Quote
Outside of mathematics and the physical sciences, you'll probably find out over the years and decades that it is futile, and rarely works in issues of real life, such as politics.
I'm a mathematician in "real life" and I think history would show that math and science are just as worthwhile as any other endeavor. As Cardboard mentioned above, I don't believe there is anything to lose from performing scientific analysis. And finally, that came off as a condescending thing of you to say.

I concur with your harsh criticism of something I never said or implied.  (But I thank you for providing another unwitting example appropriate for this TDS thread:  you guys just can't help yourselves!)  Einstein must be condescending, too ("As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality"), if you'll permit me to extend his comments beyond what he was talking about in geometry.

Isn't this what Kahneman describes with fast and slow thinking?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksopQLMQsq8
Tell me about your assumptions and reasoning process so we can share (and compare). :)

Studying Kahneman and Tversky is essential.  It's a great start.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on March 14, 2018, 10:02:09 PM
Haha, well I can take the shade you're throwing, but I will still insist: a logical, reasoned analysis is the most objective way to determine the truth of a situation. If you would like to take a roundabout approach, that's fine but it will provide less assurance in your conclusions.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on March 14, 2018, 10:09:17 PM
Looks like we're two English-speaking Americans divided by a common language.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on March 16, 2018, 03:29:41 PM
Going into the weekend, let's entertain ourselves by triggering some board members:

"[Steve] Jobs, who primarily studied humanities not engineering, said he came to realise ‘that an intuitive understanding and consciousness was more significant than abstract thinking and intellectual logical analysis.’"

Read these and consider if the subject is Trump or Jobs:

‘It was as if [his] brain circuits were missing a device that would modulate the extreme spikes of impulsive opinions that popped into his mind.’

‘He would assert something—be it a fact about world history or a recounting of who suggested an idea at a meeting—without even considering the truth.’

‘He was not a model boss or human being, tidily packaged for emulation. [He] could drive those around him to fury and despair.’

‘The key question is why [he] can’t control himself at times from being so reflexively cruel and harmful to some people.’

https://spectator-usa.com/2018/03/donald-trump-is-the-steve-jobs-of-politics/
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on March 16, 2018, 06:16:50 PM
Sure, let's play the anecdote game. I've got two good ones:

"It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong"
–Richard P. Feynman

“My fingers are long and beautiful, as, it has been well documented, are various other parts of my body.”

-Donald Trump
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Spekulatius on March 17, 2018, 05:33:50 AM
Many people that shape history do so despite and maybe even because of serious deficiencies. Adolf Hitler was had serious deficiencies (warped sense of reality, deep hatred, probably depression, jobless bum) yet he was very efficient for many years until fact and the rest of the world caught up with him.

I think what set these history makers apart is that they harness powers they didn’t have the right outlet before they appeared at the scene (in case of Trump it is deep discontent of disenfranchised people mostly in rural areas and the heartland , in Hitlers case it was anger about the WW1 aftermath) that they can harness and embody and in some cases change the course of history for the better or the worse that nobody thought possible.

Note my analogy with Hitler is purely conceptual. I don’t want to imply that Trump is similar to Hitler.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on March 17, 2018, 09:15:47 AM
cobafdek,

This discussion probably belongs elsewhere but your post got me thinking.

I do agree that President Trump has an unusual skillset.
The outcome of which remains open to debate.
And there may be investment implications.

Mr. Jobs was a business genius but he was also a nasty, cruel and self-focused bully. He used his reality distortion field abilities to achieve extraordinary accomplishments but the same strategy revealed deep intuitive character flaws that rendered him oblivious to inconvenient facts leading to tragic consequences (example: decision to delay timely and appropriate treatment for his cancer).
Facts are stubborn things.

I read your stuff and I wonder if you would like to read “Reason: The classic experience” by Professor Eric Voegelin. I can’t find my copy or a link but will continue to look for it (edition 1974). But I found some old notes:

-Reason does not correspond to an idea but more to “the process in reality in which concrete human beings, the ‘lovers of wisdom,’ the philosophers as they styled themselves, were engaged in an act of resistance against the social disorder of their age. From this act there emerged the nous as the cognitively luminous force that inspired the philosophers to resist and, at the same time, enabled them to recognize the phenomena of disorder in the light of a humanity ordered by the nous. Thus, reason in the noetic sense was discovered as both the force and the criterion of order”.

(In English: reason is not a treasure to be stored away.)

-When a man cannot define his true humanity within the confine of reason, this sets the foundation for distortion of reality and opens the door to confusion and chaos.

On the topic of reason vs intuition
I understand that Mr. Navarro recently said (March 7, 2018):
"This is the president’s vision. My function, really, as an economist is to try to provide the underlying analytics that confirm his intuition. And his intuition is always right in these matters."



Let’s not forget that this may be about short term political noise in the grand scheme of things and I think that US institutions can survive this.

I understand that Bill Gates recently met President Trump and some pundits suggested that he may want the job. Just like there are similarities between Mr. Jobs and Mr. Trump, there are parallels with Mr. Gates (rich, heads of large empires, etc) but the differences along the intuition/insight spectrum are striking.

Please enlighten me.

In the meantime, I'll go back to financial statements.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: shalab on March 17, 2018, 10:04:04 AM
Right on cigarbutt. I think some of the Trump policies will survive him - especially the reforms in these areas:

    - immigration reform
    - trade reform
    - tax reform (even if individual rates go up which I think they will, corporate rates likely won't go up)

cobafdek,

This discussion probably belongs elsewhere but your post got me thinking.

I do agree that President Trump has an unusual skillset.
The outcome of which remains open to debate.
And there may be investment implications.

Mr. Jobs was a business genius but he was also a nasty, cruel and self-focused bully. He used his reality distortion field abilities to achieve extraordinary accomplishments but the same strategy revealed deep intuitive character flaws that rendered him oblivious to inconvenient facts leading to tragic consequences (example: decision to delay timely and appropriate treatment for his cancer).
Facts are stubborn things.

I read your stuff and I wonder if you would like to read “Reason: The classic experience” by Professor Eric Voegelin. I can’t find my copy or a link but will continue to look for it (edition 1974). But I found some old notes:

-Reason does not correspond to an idea but more to “the process in reality in which concrete human beings, the ‘lovers of wisdom,’ the philosophers as they styled themselves, were engaged in an act of resistance against the social disorder of their age. From this act there emerged the nous as the cognitively luminous force that inspired the philosophers to resist and, at the same time, enabled them to recognize the phenomena of disorder in the light of a humanity ordered by the nous. Thus, reason in the noetic sense was discovered as both the force and the criterion of order”.

(In English: reason is not a treasure to be stored away.)

-When a man cannot define his true humanity within the confine of reason, this sets the foundation for distortion of reality and opens the door to confusion and chaos.

On the topic of reason vs intuition
I understand that Mr. Navarro recently said (March 7, 2018):
"This is the president’s vision. My function, really, as an economist is to try to provide the underlying analytics that confirm his intuition. And his intuition is always right in these matters."



Let’s not forget that this may be about short term political noise in the grand scheme of things and I think that US institutions can survive this.

I understand that Bill Gates recently met President Trump and some pundits suggested that he may want the job. Just like there are similarities between Mr. Jobs and Mr. Trump, there are parallels with Mr. Gates (rich, heads of large empires, etc) but the differences along the intuition/insight spectrum are striking.

Please enlighten me.

In the meantime, I'll go back to financial statements.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on March 17, 2018, 01:14:40 PM
Many people that shape history do so despite and maybe even because of serious deficiencies. Adolf Hitler was had serious deficiencies (warped sense of reality, deep hatred, probably depression, jobless bum) yet he was very efficient for many years until fact and the rest of the world caught up with him.

I think what set these history makers apart is that they harness powers they didn’t have the right outlet before they appeared at the scene (in case of Trump it is deep discontent of disenfranchised people mostly in rural areas and the heartland , in Hitlers case it was anger about the WW1 aftermath) that they can harness and embody and in some cases change the course of history for the better or the worse that nobody thought possible.

Note my analogy with Hitler is purely conceptual. I don’t want to imply that Trump is similar to Hitler.

Nicely done, on several levels.

At face value, taking your words strictly speaking, you've avoided descending into TDS, and made a great point.  I failed to trigger you!

What's cool for us linguistic/cognitive science nerds is that you may have still achieved the purpose of the "Trump=Hitler" meme, whether or not you consciously intended to do so.  It's the power of negative suggestions, operating on a subconscious level.  When you negate something, our neural circuits first has to process and accept the suggestion "Trump=Hitler" before it reads your negation.  In that split second before processing the negative part, the subconscious may have already accepted the positive suggestion, if it was primed beforehand.  Sure, this is irrational, but it's powerful messaging, and it works on a crowd level.  It won't work on everybody, but it will work on enough.  Ask Congressman Steve Scalise.

And that's why I posted that article comparing Trump to Jobs.  My post was designed to counter that perennial Trump=Hitler belief, which, though it is much weaker than it was immediately post-election, will probably never completely die out. 

So remember this:  I am NOT saying Trump=SteveJobs!
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on March 17, 2018, 02:05:06 PM
. . . I wonder if you would like to read “Reason: The classic experience” by Professor Eric Voegelin. I can’t find my copy or a link but will continue to look for it (edition 1974). But I found some old notes:

-Reason does not correspond to an idea but more to “the process in reality in which concrete human beings, the ‘lovers of wisdom,’ the philosophers as they styled themselves, were engaged in an act of resistance against the social disorder of their age. From this act there emerged the nous as the cognitively luminous force that inspired the philosophers to resist and, at the same time, enabled them to recognize the phenomena of disorder in the light of a humanity ordered by the nous. Thus, reason in the noetic sense was discovered as both the force and the criterion of order”.

(In English: reason is not a treasure to be stored away.)

-When a man cannot define his true humanity within the confine of reason, this sets the foundation for distortion of reality and opens the door to confusion and chaos.

The last time I saw the name Eric Voegelin was reading National Review when Buckley was still alive as editor.  I haven't read the magazine regularly since.  Voegelin's stuff was on my reading pile that I never got to.  If I were still an undergraduate or graduate student, I might be interested in getting into the weeds of defining "reason" and "rationality."  I'm content to stay ignorant on the myriad details of the definitions, since there are only so many hours in the day.  Let me just say that, ideally, of course people should be reasonable and rational with the goal of getting at the truth of objective reality, however you strictly define those words.  Who could disagree with that?  I agree with all of LC's ideals of rationality and logic.  I don't think it's even possible for anybody to disagree with such ideals:  who actually says that one's own ideas are wrong or irrational?   The problem is that, outside of math and the physical sciences, at the end of any reasonable/rational debate, the opposing sides may get no further than "We agree to disagree," with each side unable to prove or convince the other that it is wrong and irrational.  We each think we're the rational one and the other isn't.

On the topic of reason vs intuition
I understand that Mr. Navarro recently said (March 7, 2018):
"This is the president’s vision. My function, really, as an economist is to try to provide the underlying analytics that confirm his intuition. And his intuition is always right in these matters."



Let’s not forget that this may be about short term political noise in the grand scheme of things and I think that US institutions can survive this.

I understand that Bill Gates recently met President Trump and some pundits suggested that he may want the job. Just like there are similarities between Mr. Jobs and Mr. Trump, there are parallels with Mr. Gates (rich, heads of large empires, etc) but the differences along the intuition/insight spectrum are striking.

Yeah, who knows what's up with the Trump and Gates meeting.  Maybe Trump can persuade Gates that an "America First" policy is not the bad thing he and Melinda are hallucinating it is.  "America First" is an ambiguous slogan, and everyone reads into it what they hope or fear.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on March 17, 2018, 03:43:17 PM
"We each think we're the rational one and the other isn't."

Thanks for taking my post with an open mind.
Contentious political interpretation of « reality » is nothing new.
It is the trend or “drift” that may be concerning IMO.

Recent quote from President Trump, referring to a conversation with Theresa May (March 13th): “As soon as we get the facts straight, if we agree with them, we will condemn Russia or whoever it may be.”  (my bold)
One should not over-read such comments fired back at journalists but the “slip” is particularly revealing in terms of policy decisions resulting from factual analysis of issues.

What you describe reminds me of what some people call tribal thinking.
Link:
https://theconversation.com/how-tribal-thinking-has-left-us-in-a-post-truth-world-69486

“Every one of us is vulnerable to thinking that the ideas we hold dear are reasoned or principled positions. But how many of our ideas are adopted and defended as part of our tribal identity?”

Sometimes, questions are more revealing than answers.

“In this atmosphere, it takes a special kind of intellectual honesty to interrogate our own ideas as rigorously as we do other people’s, to listen to other arguments, and to discard our own bad ideas. But this is the only way to break the self-reinforcing binds between tribal identity and conviction.”

That’s what I’ll keep working on in this and other sections of this Board.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Spekulatius on March 18, 2018, 07:15:38 AM
Quote
Yeah, who knows what's up with the Trump and Gates meeting.  Maybe Trump can persuade Gates that an "America First" policy is not the bad thing he and Melinda are hallucinating it is.  "America First" is an ambiguous slogan, and everyone reads into it what they hope or fear

I think Bill and Melinda’s biggest focus in the US is education. Who knows, maybe they hope to find some common ground with Trump here.

Second focus is probably US foreign aide. It seems something that likely comes under the bus with an Smerica first policy. Yet, done correctly, it can do so much good and improve the US goodwill in many countries in the world. Bill and a Melinda have done an amazing job homing in on a few but impotent issues with their foundation and make a difference for millions of people.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Spekulatius on March 23, 2018, 06:26:20 PM
They should rebrand CNN as Trump TV. They almost broadcast about nothing else.

Suggest Program

2AM: Nightly Twitter update

5AM: Twitter - roadmap for today

8AM: Foreign and domestic affairs,morning edition

12AM: Powerplay - who is fired, who is hired?

1PM: West Wing Gadfly: Rumours and leaks

2PM: Twitter - roadmap for the afternoon

6PM: Straight from the gut - Economy analytics

9PM : A shot in the dark - Foreign policy

12PM -late nate intuitionism tweet



Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on March 23, 2018, 06:51:24 PM
They should have 2 stations: CNN Politics and CNN Religion. Mindless topics to argue about and people will sit glued to it.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Spekulatius on March 24, 2018, 01:56:10 PM
Have to say this, watching politics was never so entertaining. I rarely watch CNN generally, but now I turn it on to see what pearls of wisdom emanate from the White House today. It’s downright addictive. I don’t think anybody could have made up this news tornado for a TV show without being ridiculed as totally overboard and unrealistic. News channel viewership got to be off the charts.

Anybody willing to bet when Ivanka fires Donald over disagreement on domestic affairs?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rukawa on March 26, 2018, 01:07:07 PM
As for what republicans can get away with, you have pussy grabbing and the family values people are giving a republican mulligans to bang playboy bunnies and porn stars while the wife's at home with a newborn. I'd say that a republican can get away with quite a bit and that I'm likely not delusional - though one cannot be certain of such things.

I think this is a pretty strong point. When Clinton was in power the whole argument was that he was amoral and power hungry and the Clinton marriage was a sham marriage. This case can be made even more strongly for Trump. He is completely amoral...does any Trump supporter on this thread disagree with my assessment? And worse than Clinton he is pretty open about it.

We have a pretty strange situation when the Democratic party is the party of free trade and family values.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Spekulatius on March 26, 2018, 03:11:06 PM
As for what republicans can get away with, you have pussy grabbing and the family values people are giving a republican mulligans to bang playboy bunnies and porn stars while the wife's at home with a newborn. I'd say that a republican can get away with quite a bit and that I'm likely not delusional - though one cannot be certain of such things.

I think this is a pretty strong point. When Clinton was in power the whole argument was that he was amoral and power hungry and the Clinton marriage was a sham marriage. This case can be made even more strongly for Trump. He is completely amoral...does any Trump supporter on this thread disagree with my assessment? And worse than Clinton he is pretty open about it.

We have a pretty strange situation when the Democratic party is the party of free trade and family values.

It would be a very good thing when the Us populace would get less uptight about the politicians sexual transgression. They are for the most part Alpha personalities, so some of this Alpha male (or female ) behavior should be expected.

François Mitterant had his mistress more or less openly traveling with him on official business and as far as I know, the French didn’t think too much about it, and that was in the 1980‘s. Min dieu , it is Time to become less dilusionary about moral standards.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on March 27, 2018, 10:42:24 AM
As for what republicans can get away with, you have pussy grabbing and the family values people are giving a republican mulligans to bang playboy bunnies and porn stars while the wife's at home with a newborn. I'd say that a republican can get away with quite a bit and that I'm likely not delusional - though one cannot be certain of such things.
I think this is a pretty strong point.

On the contrary:  it's an extremely weak point.  Calling a politician a hypocrite is one of the weakest debating points available.  It is so obvious that it convinces nobody about nothing.

He is completely amoral...does any Trump supporter on this thread disagree with my assessment?

If you include the following as amoral, then I would agree with you:
1. strong economy and more jobs
2. ISIS on the ropes
3. stronger border control with illegal immigration down sharply
4. keeping campaign promises
5. banning bump stocks
6. taking the US workers' side in trade disputes
7. denuclearizing North Korea

It would be a very good thing when the Us populace would get less uptight about the politicians sexual transgression.

You've misunderestimated us Americans.  Trump's approval ratings are up, just like Clinton's was during the Lewinsky news cycle.  Trump needs maybe 3 or 4 more porn stars and a couple more Playboy playmates to take his approval rating over 50%.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rkbabang on March 27, 2018, 10:56:12 AM
As for what republicans can get away with, you have pussy grabbing and the family values people are giving a republican mulligans to bang playboy bunnies and porn stars while the wife's at home with a newborn. I'd say that a republican can get away with quite a bit and that I'm likely not delusional - though one cannot be certain of such things.

I think this is a pretty strong point. When Clinton was in power the whole argument was that he was amoral and power hungry and the Clinton marriage was a sham marriage. This case can be made even more strongly for Trump. He is completely amoral...does any Trump supporter on this thread disagree with my assessment? And worse than Clinton he is pretty open about it.

We have a pretty strange situation when the Democratic party is the party of free trade and family values.

It would be a very good thing when the Us populace would get less uptight about the politicians sexual transgression. They are for the most part Alpha personalities, so some of this Alpha male (or female ) behavior should be expected.

François Mitterant had his mistress more or less openly traveling with him on official business and as far as I know, the French didn’t think too much about it, and that was in the 1980‘s. Min dieu , it is Time to become less dilusionary about moral standards.

It's funny.  When it's the Republicans screaming about "Family Values" I tend to side with the Democrats.  Now that it is the Democrats screaming about sex with porn stars, I'm tending to side with the Republicans.    I really don't care who sleeps with who.  It's none of my business.  The only thing I really objected to about the whole Lewinsky thing was Clinton bombing an aspirin factory and killing innocent people to get it out of the news cycle.  Bombs concern me more than BJs.  He also lied under oath, but that is just the expected behavior of any government official. Every cop in America does it routinely.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on March 27, 2018, 11:05:18 AM
cobafdek,
I apologize in advance if you take the following the wrong way but humor is a way to communicate too.
"You've misunderestimated us Americans."

I enjoyed the Bushisms tremendously and maybe you're wording is intentional.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w65CSu6Cc4A

FWIW, I really think that Mr. George W. Bush has not been appraised to his true value. :)

"Nearly a decade after George W. Bush said "misunderestimated" in a speech, Philip Hensher called the term one of his "most memorable additions to the language, and an incidentally expressive one: it may be that we rather needed a word for 'to underestimate by mistake'."
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on March 27, 2018, 11:19:26 AM
I enjoyed the Bushisms tremendously and maybe you're wording is intentional.

You've successfully read mind:  it was intentional.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on April 05, 2018, 07:29:40 AM
This sounds rational, but it's actually insane:

Call me old fashioned, but I think the way to promote free trade is to sell the idea to the public in your country and in other countries, to honor the agreements you enter into and to keep the moral high ground to be able to lead others and be an example that other countries want to follow, etc. Trade is built on stability, not instability, so you want to be a stabilizing force rather than a destabilizing one.

The U.S. has tried this since at least 2001 when China entered the WTO.  Grandmother's aphorism applies here about the definition of insanity being doing the same thing over and over again . . .

When you're insane, you see delusional thinking (in this case, more mind-reading):

Trumps thinks attacking China will be popular in a populist way, that's why he's doing it. He's basing a lot of his beliefs on random FOX News segments and whatever his mogul friends and protectionist advisors slip into his ear (a lot of it factually wrong).  Autocrats like Trump all need an external enemy to blame for their country's problems, and China and Mexico have been Trump's go to for a while.

And Cathy Newman-style attempt at cognitive dissonance reduction:

You're basically making the Bush argument of "you're either with us or against us". That's BS.

Finally, another version of the CNN commercial about apples and bananas:

I do dislike Trump a lot, but it's not an irrational dislike, it's quite rational

Compare Hairtrigger Liberty with the following (from a Jeff Bezos-associated news site):

"It is no coincidence that the Chinese have not yet set the date when these new tariffs will become effective. This means they still see room for extending the current negotiations."
"Given the relatively large dependency of the Chinese economy on American demand, it is likely that China will, in the end, cut its losses and be willing to give Trump something."
http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-trade-war-with-china-could-end-up-paying-off-ing-says-2018-4

Nobody knows how it will turn out, but which one sounds more credible and rational?


Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on April 05, 2018, 08:55:37 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/04/05/judge-andrew-napolitano-what-is-robert-mueller-looking-for.html

Recall the commonly repeated phrase, "There's absolutely no evidence"

Quote
The FBI also had transcripts of telephone conversations and copies of emails and text messages of Trump campaign personnel that had been supplied to it by British intelligence. Connecting the dots, the FBI persuaded a judge on the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court to issue a search warrant for the surveillance of Page, an American.

Sounds like there's more evidence then many at Fox News would lead you to believe... It's odd that Fox News would knowingly repeat lies given their crusade against "Fake News". This article should have come with a "Bias Alert" banner (a reoccurring example of Fox News preemptively arbitrating the truth, bias, sanity, ect - it's no surprise that many followers use this tactic as well).

Don't get me wrong, I like Fox News. I read their site everyday. I think it helps me stay balanced (or at least that's the effort). But there are some writers and anchors at the outlet that are purposefully trying to misinform folks while also encouraging those same folks to spread that misinformation and ignore any rebuttals or corrections. The phrase 'fact-check' has been vilified. That sounds like TDS to me.


Quote
Page never registered as a foreign agent, and working for the Kremlin and not registering as a foreign agent is a crime for which the FBI should have investigated Page. Such an investigation would have included surveillance, but not from the FISA court.

...

Instead, it sought a warrant to surveil Page’s communications based on the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act standard, which is probable cause of communicating with a foreign power.

Uh, what? Why are they misleading readers? They define Carter Page's actions, the FISA Court's use, and then state that for some unexplained reason that his foreign communications somehow do not qualify for standard treatment. Seems like an odd interpretation considering the lack of explanation for the author's view.


Quote
When such an indicted person can then be persuaded to turn on his former colleagues in return for a lesser charge or a lighter sentence, prosecutors can have a field day. This is a form of bribery -- you tell us on the witness stand what we want to hear and we’ll go easy on you -- that is permitted only to prosecutors; and the courts condone it. If defense counsel gave as much as a lollipop to a witness to shade his testimony, both would be indicted.

Again, what? This is plainly inaccurate reporting and purposeful mischaracterization. Using participants to a scheme to detail the specific actors and methods of the scheme. Since Trump is involved, this is now "bribery" and the FBI is somehow rotten/corrupt. TDS.

Also, the second part of this quote again purposefully misleads readers on how criminal cases work. Prosecutors are able to use these tactics because a defendant has been indicted by a Grand Jury and now the prosecution must prove their guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. That's a hell of a high-bar. Fox News is trying to describe an incomplete and inaccurate situation where any indicted folks must fight uphill to defend their selves.


Quote
This lower, easier-to-demonstrate and unconstitutional standard is the tool of choice these days for FBI agents because it requires less effort and is used in a court that grants 99.9 percent of search warrant applications.

They fail to mention that one of the only denials of a FISA-based surveillance warrant in the past decade is the denial of Page's original application. It's almost like the FISA Court was doing their job and careful not to be politicized. Yet, Fox News is purposefully suppressing this detail to mischaracterize the situation and misinform their viewers. Repeating the phrase "Fake News" further brainwashes their viewers by encouraging them to avoid any outlet that might expose factual explanations behind Fox News' inaccurate characterizations and theories.

TDS.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on April 05, 2018, 09:41:51 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/04/05/judge-andrew-napolitano-what-is-robert-mueller-l

As I've said similarly before, when defending Trump, an Obama-voter writing in a left-leaning news site is more credible than Fox News:

http://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/381593-when-will-the-media-accept-that-trump-is-not-a-criminal-target

"After a year of being assured that 'bombshell' developments and 'smoking gun' evidence was sealing the criminal case against Trump, the dissonance was too great for many who refuse to accept the obvious meaning of this disclosure."

"Looking at each of the prior filings, the disclosure would seem consistent with a lack of compelling evidence of a crime by Trump. Indeed, it would indicate Trump’s status has not changed from when Comey told Congress that Trump was not a target."

"What is new is that Mueller confirmed Trump’s status has not changed."

"This continued refusal to acknowledge positive developments for Trump is a disturbing pathology."

"CNN analyst Philip Mudd was not satisfied with the 'soft' depictions of the Mueller disclosure and declared that it was devastating news that Mueller was now investigating Trump and that, if Trump were declared a subject, 'I would wet my pants.'"
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on April 05, 2018, 09:53:01 AM
You are making my point. You forgot the qualifier "In my opinion...".

In your opinion, that is more credible. You are not the arbiter of facts. Someone already has that job. We, as citizens, interpret those findings for ourselves. Credibility of the case has nothing to do with my post though. I'm pointing out misinformation and suppression of facts.

I suspect you support your "credibility theory" because you have defined it in such a way to avoid challenging your interpretation of the facts of the case. For example, you refuse to consider opinions of right-leaning Trump-bashers because "never Trump".

We've discussed my opinion of the case already. There's not enough information that's public to opine. I have opinions, but that's all they are. However, I don't think it's surprising that evidence has not been released prior to indictments. I also suspect evidence in any future indictments has already been reported in 2015/2016. This investigation is not surprising. The details of the scheme were widely reported or, in some cases, self-announced by many of the participants.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on April 05, 2018, 10:30:34 AM
I suspect you support your "credibility theory" because you have defined it in such a way to avoid challenging your interpretation of the facts of the case. For example, you refuse to consider opinions of right-leaning Trump-bashers because "never Trump".

How can you possibly know this?  You probably know by now what this is an example of!

This thread is too funny!
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on April 05, 2018, 11:31:15 AM
I'm making an inference, not stating a fact. That's why I say 'I suspect' and not 'I know'. That's why I provided an example after my statement. I don't think I can be anymore deliberate and clear.

Quote
Credibility of the case has nothing to do with my post though.

I find it funny that you often seem to ignore debate that is anchored in facts and prefer to shift debate to subjective topics where you can't be wrong (or right). Either way, until next time.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Value^2 on April 06, 2018, 08:42:23 AM
 I don't know how these Hillary voters can take another 7 years? Even Kids are not safe anymore!  ;D

Texas elected official gets misdemeanor, accused of berating a teen girl wearing Trump T-shirt
“They were scared,” the father of one of the girls told the local news. “They were absolutely scared. My little girl essentially wanted to know if this woman was going to hurt her.”


Burke allegedly screamed, “Grab ‘em by the p---- girls!” at the group of four teenagers waiting in line to get cookies for younger kids at their church Saturday night, KPRC reported.

The father told the local news that when the girls tried to ignore her, she yelled the obscenity again, and then Burke started yelling, “MAGA! MAGA! MAGA!” as she shook her fist at them.

She allegedly took a photo of the girl wearing a “Trump: Make America Great Again” T-shirt before leaving.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/04/05/texas-elected-official-gets-misdemeanor-accused-berating-teen-girl-wearing-trump-t-shirt.html
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on April 06, 2018, 10:58:53 AM
I don't know how these Hillary voters can take another 7 years? Even Kids are not safe anymore!  ;D

Texas elected official gets misdemeanor, accused of berating a teen girl wearing Trump T-shirt
“They were scared,” the father of one of the girls told the local news. “They were absolutely scared. My little girl essentially wanted to know if this woman was going to hurt her.”


Burke allegedly screamed, “Grab ‘em by the p---- girls!” at the group of four teenagers waiting in line to get cookies for younger kids at their church Saturday night, KPRC reported.

The father told the local news that when the girls tried to ignore her, she yelled the obscenity again, and then Burke started yelling, “MAGA! MAGA! MAGA!” as she shook her fist at them.

She allegedly took a photo of the girl wearing a “Trump: Make America Great Again” T-shirt before leaving.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/04/05/texas-elected-official-gets-misdemeanor-accused-berating-teen-girl-wearing-trump-t-shirt.html


"One of the families said Burke did reach out to them to apologize"

I would bet that Kellye Burke is a good person, and that this Fox story is about the dissociated segment of her brain that automatically took over when she saw those Trump t-shirts.  "Click, whirr" as Cialdini puts it.  Or, as students of Kahneman would recognize, System 1 shutting down System 2.  (Explains a lot about board members' insane posts.)  The apology comes from System 2.  I hope her family and neighbors and those she wronged, realizing themselves as similarly dissociated human beings, will respond with humanity.

As a public official, however, when dealing with her as voters and constituents, she needs to suffer the consequences.

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on April 06, 2018, 11:14:13 AM
Quote
(Explains a lot about board members' insane posts.)
Insane? You've shown no effort to understand other perspectives - instead simply dismissing contradicting points by labeling them "insane". Classic confirmation bias.

To me it seems like the only one suffering TDS is you.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on April 06, 2018, 11:22:23 AM
Quote
(Explains a lot about board members' insane posts.)
Insane? You've shown no effort to understand other perspectives - instead simply dismissing contradicting points by labeling them "insane". Classic confirmation bias.

To me it seems like the only one suffering TDS is you.

Thanks for your additional example of System 1.

And you're forgiven.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on April 06, 2018, 11:25:26 AM
Yikes, didn't expect to trigger you with 1 post.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on April 06, 2018, 11:42:22 AM
Yikes, didn't expect to trigger you with 1 post.

You and your clever System 2!  (Let's see how many get it!?)
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: investor-man on May 08, 2018, 08:37:07 PM
I've got the syndrome real bad tonight. $500k paid from a Russian oligarch directly to Mr. Trump's personal attorney. I got the syndrome so bad. I'm completely deranged. Completely biased. All sorts of cognitive issues in my brain right now. Anyone care to try and sound smart while reexplaining some shitty pop-psychology book they read three chapters of while bored on a layover in an airport? There's some nugget of truth in there somewhere to explain why what I'm seeing isn't really what I'm seeing, right? Right?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: investor-man on May 08, 2018, 08:56:33 PM
I've got the syndrome real bad tonight. $500k paid from a Russian oligarch directly to Mr. Trump's personal attorney. I got the syndrome so bad. I'm completely deranged. Completely biased. All sorts of cognitive issues in my brain right now. Anyone care to try and sound smart while reexplaining some shitty pop-psychology book they read three chapters of while bored on a layover in an airport? There's some nugget of truth in there somewhere to explain why what I'm seeing isn't really what I'm seeing, right? Right?

well now I feel like a jerk. apologies if my words have offended anyone - sometimes you just need an outlet, and this is about the only place I regularly visit that has a population of Trump supporters. I have in my life held onto beliefs that in hindsight were clearly wrong. I was and am embarrassed about those episodes, so I am sympathetic to those that still support Trump. It's hard to put your tail between your legs, but as we all know - you can learn from it.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cardboard on May 10, 2018, 05:58:15 AM
If this is the kind of world and results that Trump brings about, then I hope that your Russian oligarch gives $1,000,000 next election:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/10/trump-welcomes-back-americans-freed-by-north-korea.html

George W. Bush properly identified the axis of evil. He took care of one of them via war. It appears that Trump will take care of one of them by threatening and the other one we will see.

At the very least, he is not kicking the can down the road like Obama did on Iran. Or interfering into other countries way of leading their people. By the way, that is what created the mess in Ukraine, Libya, Syria and other places.

Trump focus is mostly on American interests: do what you want but, don't mess with us.

And by the way, here is the truth on Russia:

https://www.ft.com/content/1e2086bc-3997-11e8-8b98-2f31af407cc8

Cardboard
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on May 10, 2018, 11:54:23 AM
Remarkable cases continue to accumulate, but this is a first example of back-to-back posts showing relapse/remission in under 20 minutes.

(Important disclaimer:  I am not implying the poster has schizophrenia, because making diagnoses anonymously and online is both invalid and impermissible.  This is just an analogy for those who have never undergone medical training and have never witnessed similar psychotic clinical phenomena in person.)

When a schizophrenic patient stops his medication, you get something like this:

I've got the syndrome real bad tonight. $500k paid from a Russian oligarch directly to Mr. Trump's personal attorney. I got the syndrome so bad. I'm completely deranged. Completely biased. All sorts of cognitive issues in my brain right now. Anyone care to try and sound smart while reexplaining some shitty pop-psychology book they read three chapters of while bored on a layover in an airport? There's some nugget of truth in there somewhere to explain why what I'm seeing isn't really what I'm seeing, right? Right?

Unfortunately, many patients, while they are hallucinating, don't know they are hallucinating.  But here we have someone with insight into their delusion, just like many schizophrenics who know they have stopped their medication and who know they are hallucinating.  Many of them voluntarily resume treatment, resulting in something like this:

well now I feel like a jerk. apologies if my words have offended anyone - sometimes you just need an outlet, and this is about the only place I regularly visit that has a population of Trump supporters. I have in my life held onto beliefs that in hindsight were clearly wrong. I was and am embarrassed about those episodes, so I am sympathetic to those that still support Trump. It's hard to put your tail between your legs, but as we all know - you can learn from it.

TDS is obviously partially a tongue-in-cheek diagnosis (as is this whole thread, for those who haven't yet grasped it as such!).  Too many anti-Trumpers can't prevent themselves from displaying the features, which may mean this thread may never end.  Since the election, there is no doubt that psychotic phenomena is everyday, ordinary behavior.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on May 10, 2018, 04:54:44 PM
Well since my last post was reported and removed (presumably for it's blunt accuracy), I'll just say that while I am sympathetic to your delusion, cobafdek, there is a saying about playing chess with pigeons.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on May 10, 2018, 07:08:00 PM
Well since my last post was reported and removed (presumably for it's blunt accuracy), I'll just say that while I am sympathetic to your delusion, cobafdek, there is a saying about playing chess with pigeons.

Try to learn from mistakes and had to look up what the expression meant and found this:
http://davetrott.co.uk/2016/11/playing-chess-with-a-pigeon/

Whether one takes this seriously or not, there is the possibility that the rules of the games are changing. Need adaptation.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on May 10, 2018, 07:34:08 PM
Quote
Whether one takes this seriously or not, there is the possibility that the rules of the games are changing. Need adaptation.

I would say that winning an argument is different from being "right". And the rhetorical tricks people use to win arguments (or political races) have been around for ages, those haven't changed either.

But here on this forum there's nothing to win or lose, it's just a conversation. Sometimes people say dumb stuff, sometimes they say it consistently...that's when I check out from the brain damage.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on May 10, 2018, 09:56:45 PM
If this is the kind of world and results that Trump brings about, then I hope that your Russian oligarch gives $1,000,000 next election:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/10/trump-welcomes-back-americans-freed-by-north-korea.html

Also, heads will explode (and most of those who are deep in TDS will go deeper) because of Kanye West and others, like:

https://twitter.com/realkareemdream/status/994746603876446208

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on May 12, 2018, 08:18:41 AM
I've got the syndrome real bad tonight. $500k paid from a Russian oligarch directly to Mr. Trump's personal attorney. I got the syndrome so bad. I'm completely deranged. Completely biased. All sorts of cognitive issues in my brain right now. Anyone care to try and sound smart while reexplaining some shitty pop-psychology book they read three chapters of while bored on a layover in an airport? There's some nugget of truth in there somewhere to explain why what I'm seeing isn't really what I'm seeing, right? Right?

Well since my last post was reported and removed (presumably for it's blunt accuracy), I'll just say that while I am sympathetic to your delusion, cobafdek, there is a saying about playing chess with pigeons.

The "last post" referred to was by Schwab711.  It is the missing one.  There are other pathognomonic signs and linguistic clues for the suspicion that Schwab711 = investor-man = LC, so that this may be an example of a multiple personality manifestation of TDS.  (Anybody keeping track of how many people using multiple pseudonyms on CoBF?)  Sad!

The post taken down linked to a Taleb tweet.  That post was so lost in the weeds that it missed the big one.  I myself pointed out my own cognitive blindness in my original post of this entire thread.  SharperDingaan replied in a non-hysterical way suggesting he didn't take it personally.  That got me out of my hallucinatory interpretation of his post.

Ironically, SharperDingaan did so by referencing Russia ("Ask any Russian.")  Rather than getting obsessed by the Russian collusion delusion, I did finish reading that dimestore Russian novel I referred to early in this thread.  My favorite quote:  "If everything in the universe were sensible, nothing would happen."

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on May 12, 2018, 12:15:17 PM
I've got the syndrome real bad tonight. $500k paid from a Russian oligarch directly to Mr. Trump's personal attorney. I got the syndrome so bad. I'm completely deranged. Completely biased. All sorts of cognitive issues in my brain right now. Anyone care to try and sound smart while reexplaining some shitty pop-psychology book they read three chapters of while bored on a layover in an airport? There's some nugget of truth in there somewhere to explain why what I'm seeing isn't really what I'm seeing, right? Right?

Well since my last post was reported and removed (presumably for it's blunt accuracy), I'll just say that while I am sympathetic to your delusion, cobafdek, there is a saying about playing chess with pigeons.

The "last post" referred to was by Schwab711.  It is the missing one.  There are other pathognomonic signs and linguistic clues for the suspicion that Schwab711 = investor-man = LC, so that this may be an example of a multiple personality manifestation of TDS.  (Anybody keeping track of how many people using multiple pseudonyms on CoBF?)  Sad!

I believe you cracked the case. I shouldn't have skimped on the software license.
https://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/03/software-helps-identify-anonymous-writers-or-helps-them-stay-that-way/
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Spekulatius on May 20, 2018, 03:08:04 PM
Oldie, but Goldie:
https://youtu.be/NxFkEj7KPC0 (https://youtu.be/NxFkEj7KPC0)
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: alpha on May 24, 2018, 07:25:20 AM

https://www.forbes.com/sites/petercohan/2018/05/24/elon-musks-trump-derangement-syndrome/
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on May 24, 2018, 10:56:26 AM

https://www.forbes.com/sites/petercohan/2018/05/24/elon-musks-trump-derangement-syndrome/

Although this is a hit piece, it accomplishes the same purpose as this previously linked article:

https://spectator-usa.com/2018/03/donald-trump-is-the-steve-jobs-of-politics/

That article suggested imagining Trump = Steve Jobs, and now Forbes is pairing Trump with Elon Musk.  Good job Peter Cohan!

Intentional or not, these articles could play a role in breaking the mass hysteria anti-Trump bubble by priming the people's collective mind for continued future success for the Trump administration. 
Who knows?  Some rabid anti-Trumpers will always remain that way, but nothing succeeds like success.

By the way, the above Forbes article reminds me of all those Alan Abelson columns in Barron's in the 1990s, presenting the rational and logical case why Amazon.com could not continue for much longer in their cash-burning ways, the accounting doesn't work, etc. etc. etc.  Jeff Bezos has the last laugh.  Maybe Musk and Trump will as well.

We'll see.

Edit:  Meanwhile - https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/999432465495285760
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Spekulatius on May 27, 2018, 08:58:23 AM
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2018/05/27/retired-teacher-makes-corrections-to-trump-letter-new-day-weekend.cnn (https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2018/05/27/retired-teacher-makes-corrections-to-trump-letter-new-day-weekend.cnn)
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: doughishere on May 28, 2018, 10:23:49 AM
On Memorial Day, the president takes some time to remember that those that gave the ultimate sacrifice are grateful to him: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1001085207825534976

The guy cant even go one day without making it about himself.  What a loser.


Compare that with Obama: https://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/1001131488103030784
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cardboard on May 28, 2018, 01:26:53 PM
I don't really care if he is arrogant, an idiot or whatever as long as he takes care of real business unlike Obama who was a pathetic useless loser who could only make great speaches.

Taking care of business such as protecting the border which is an immediate and real issue:

http://www.kitco.com/news/2018-05-28/UPDATE-1-Mexico-violence-hits-Canadian-silver-miner-apos-s-operations.html

Cardboard

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Viking on May 28, 2018, 03:50:05 PM
Trump has lowered taxes for businesses in the US  in a significant way. He is also carving away regulation. Like the man or hate the man what he is doing will help companies (with operations domiciled in the US) be much more profitable. In the short term I would expect this will also lead to higher growth.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: investor-man on May 28, 2018, 05:20:05 PM
It doesn't matter to me how many ticks he gets in the win column. He's clearly been bribed and is being blackmailed by the Russians, and his family is taking bribes from foreign nationals at the expense of national security.

This board is a celebration of capitalism. Capitalism relies upon strict rule of law. If Trump serves out a full term it sets a precedent that will turn us into a Kleptocracy. I don't know how anyone here can support him. I agree that the cut in corporate rates is good but it's a laughable trade off to what else having this guy in office means. I'd way rather have Clinton in office doing nothing.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cardboard on May 28, 2018, 06:08:08 PM
Bribed by the Russians to then apply the toughest sanctions against them? Then to challenge them directly by attacking targets in Syria despite threats?

You must be delusional or something. You try to lecture us about capitalism and what not but, you are clearly not having a good hold of basic logic.

Cardboard
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: investor-man on May 28, 2018, 06:40:32 PM
He has not enforced any of the sanctions. And the Syria bombings were a play out of Bill Clinton's playbook when he was in the same position. They also weren't effective since he warned them they were coming.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: bearprowler6 on May 28, 2018, 06:48:49 PM
https://www.alternet.org/former-nsa-analyst-claims-us-spy-agencies-have-known-trump-was-russian-agent-2016
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cardboard on May 28, 2018, 08:21:13 PM
Investor-man, read a little bit before just writing crap:

http://money.cnn.com/2018/04/09/investing/russia-sanctions-deripaska-rusal/index.html

Cardboard
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on May 28, 2018, 08:56:15 PM
Slashing taxes, slashing regulations.

Good for the short term, probably poor for the long term.

We're value investors, right?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rb on May 28, 2018, 09:28:06 PM
Trump has lowered taxes for businesses in the US  in a significant way. He is also carving away regulation. Like the man or hate the man what he is doing will help companies (with operations domiciled in the US) be much more profitable. In the short term I would expect this will also lead to higher growth.
This is very short term thinking. I guess you can't put politics aside when speaking about subjects like this but I'll try as much as possible. So let's look at both parts: taxes and regulations.

Taxes is a bit of an interesting one. A nice cut in corporate taxes should yield a nice boost to valuations for companies with heavy US operations. But the US is in an untenable fiscal position right now. They can't go at this level much longer. So you'll have a spending cut or a tax hike. In the case of the US, it's already running pretty lean. So if you wanna do a spending cut you really only have 3 places to cut: military, social security, or medicare. Now, let's be real here, they're not gonna cut the military. The hard core conservative dream is a cut to social security or medicare. But that's really what it is. Just a dream. In reality, you start cutting those and you're done. So you'll have a tax hike. The question is where. They may hike back on the corporate side, they may hike on the personal income side. We'll see how the chips fall.

Regulations is a more straight forward one in my view. Basically society is moving to improve itself over time. We want to pollute less, strive to eliminate abuse of other humans, etc. Now this happens in fits and starts. Some administrations add regulations, some remove some, and so on. But if you look over time it's a megatrend towards the we want to do better direction. You can't fight that with an executive pen. What may be controversial today generally will be anonymously accepted 15 years from now.

Now in practical terms. Say the Trump administration removes some environmental regulation and now you can dump toxic sludge in a river. Some companies are gonna love that because they can save on wastewater equipment. But do you want to own that company or do you want to own the company that doesn't despite the fact that it's allowed to? Of course you want to own the latter. That regulation rollback is at best a temporary relief. The company that fully embraces it will not be ready to deal with the future. You want to have your money in companies that are ready to deal with the future and will prosper over time.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on May 28, 2018, 09:49:07 PM
Investor-man, read a little bit before just writing crap

Keep in mind that investor-man, along with Schwab711, are two of LC's dissociated identities.  There may be more.

Playing around with multiple personalities is actually a useful intellectual exercise, and I wouldn't be surprised if LC has been practicing this for years and is therefore better than most at playing devil's advocate in real life forensics.  It's a sign of mental health that he usually is able to keep these dissociated identities pretty well integrated.  It's also probably why I would guess that LC doesn't have full-blown Trump Derangement Syndrome, unlike some of the earliest responders to this thread.

But more recent posts from LC's alter egos have been getting weaker.  There are textual clues that indicate the anti-Trump case is losing badly, and I don't know how much longer LC can keep it up.  Most of the important stuff in this country are going well (economy, jobs, Korea, ISIS, immigration, federal judges, etc.).  In the face of these successes, the anti-Trumpers can only resort to the petty, like:

On Memorial Day, the president takes some time to remember that those that gave the ultimate sacrifice are grateful to him: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1001085207825534976

The guy cant even go one day without making it about himself.  What a loser.

Compare that with Obama: https://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/1001131488103030784

And:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/28/politics/donald-trump-memorial-day-tweet/index.html

Never mind that Trump says "our country" twice and never refers to himself.  Doughishere and Cillizza are literally imagining the words "l" or "Me," in other words, they are visually hallucinating.  The Cillizza article is also full of mindreading gems and arrogant nastiness, clear signs of TDS.

The most telling point is that neither doughishere nor Chris Cillizza contradict Trump's point about "how well our country is doing today."  They can only be peeved that this was tweeted on Memorial Day. TDS dies hard, but there's nothing like the reality of success to begin to prick the mass hysteria TDS bubble.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on May 29, 2018, 04:43:19 AM
Investor-man, read a little bit before just writing crap:

http://money.cnn.com/2018/04/09/investing/russia-sanctions-deripaska-rusal/index.html

Cardboard

Cardboard, read a little bit. Russia sanctions have been watered down/delayed. I'm not sure any have started yet.

wsj.com/amp/articles/rusal-set-to-escape-sanctions-after-treasury-amends-russia-blacklist-1525217278
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cardboard on May 29, 2018, 05:22:16 AM
Oh really?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/05/18/sanctions-hit-oleg-deripaska-quits-boards-en-rusal/

"Mr Deripaska had agreed to cede control of EN+ to help the company escape sanctions imposed by Donald Trump's administration that severely limit its ability to do business."

Do you guys even read financial news?

Cardboard
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cardboard on May 29, 2018, 05:36:32 AM
Good post RB.

While I agree with you in general, I disagree about excessive regulation. This seems to come when a government becomes too large, too powerful and basically wants to tell people and businesses how they should conduct every facet of their life.

Once that happens, then the system becomes paralyzed, inefficient and not safer since so complex too manage.

On taxes, it is more of the same as the above. Complexity, special rules for all kinds of special interest groups, a government (right or left) that wants to take money from the majority to give it to their favourite cause becomes a real burden for society.

My personal view is that common sense, accountability, proper incentives are key to derive a good balance to these two topics.

Cardboard 


Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on May 29, 2018, 08:44:23 AM
Keep in mind that investor-man, along with Schwab711, are two of LC's dissociated identities.  There may be more.
:o

Quote
LC has been practicing this for years and is therefore better than most at playing devil's advocate in real life forensics.
This is why I keep reminding you to take your daily dose of thorazine!

Quote
Most of the important stuff in this country are going well (economy, jobs, Korea, ISIS, immigration, federal judges, etc.)
Keep in mind this isn't all attributable to Trump. I remember having multiple conversations on this board during Obama's tenure regarding "how little control the President really has over the economy"

Quote
While I agree with you in general, I disagree about excessive regulation. This seems to come when a government becomes too large, too powerful and basically wants to tell people and businesses how they should conduct every facet of their life.
I think we can all point to areas where excess regulation becomes burdensome. But in my opinion, when the pendulum swings too far to one side (over-regulation), the answer isn't to push it just as far to the other side. As you mention later in your post, common sense is required.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on May 29, 2018, 10:06:20 AM
Oh really?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/05/18/sanctions-hit-oleg-deripaska-quits-boards-en-rusal/

"Mr Deripaska had agreed to cede control of EN+ to help the company escape sanctions imposed by Donald Trump's administration that severely limit its ability to do business."

Do you guys even read financial news?

Cardboard

It says he can keep just under 50% stake and can't be chairman. Then Rusal can continue as usual. That's why I said watered down. I wasn't aware he actually stepped down, so that's news to me.


I do enjoy the TDS thread OP going full Dale Gribble. I deleted my posts that singled out cobafdek and msg'd them privately instead. I told them as much. That is the origin of their theory.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Viking on May 29, 2018, 10:19:53 AM
This is very short term thinking.

RB, yes, I agree. My read is what Trump is doing could boost US growth later in 2018 and in 2019 (over what it would have been without lower taxes or deregulation). After that, my crystal ball is too murky to have an opinion. From an investing standpoint this is leading me to be a little more aggressive (fully invested). However, if it appears instead that the US economy is headed for a recession I will get more cautious.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on May 29, 2018, 10:22:18 AM
This is why I keep reminding you to take your daily dose of thorazine!

Thorazine!?  You're way behind in psychopharmacology class!  Keep up!:

https://www.amazon.com/Change-Your-Mind-Consciousness-Transcendence/dp/1594204225/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1527614275&sr=8-1&keywords=michael+pollan

(I'm sure you the gourmand are familiar with this author.)
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on May 29, 2018, 11:51:22 AM
Sounds like we could have a riveting discussion about chemtrails at a Michael Pollan book signing. Bring your own lithium.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on June 08, 2018, 07:45:26 AM
Someone needs to get the KKK to teach Trump how to do racism right.  So far, his actions are all wrong.

Good thing CNN seems to be reprimanding Van Jones in their lead photo here:
https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/19/politics/trump-van-jones-jared-kushner-prison-reform/index.html

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/07/politics/alice-marie-johnson-thankful-trump-cnntv/index.html

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/08/politics/trump-nfl-athletes-kneeling-pardons/index.html

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Spekulatius on July 12, 2018, 09:31:22 AM
OT? Does any one know how Trump gets his pink reverse Panda look ? Is he using a tanning bed with eyecovers? He looks funnier and funnier his white area around his eye and his reddish pink skin. Or maybe it’s a spray on tan and the white area around his eyes is protected by a cover?

Inquiring minds want to know...
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rkbabang on July 12, 2018, 10:17:44 AM
OT? Does any one know how Trump gets his pink reverse Panda look ? Is he using a tanning bed with eyecovers? He looks funnier and funnier his white area around his eye and his reddish pink skin. Or maybe it’s a spray on tan and the white area around his eyes is protected by a cover?

Inquiring minds want to know...

Looks like spray tan to me, but I don't really know.  He has to know that his hair and skin both look ridiculous, so he must do it on purpose.  Everything about this guy is unpresidential and hilarious.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: doughishere on July 12, 2018, 10:49:13 AM
He has been golfing a lot.

https://thegolfnewsnet.com/golfnewsnetteam/2018/07/08/donald-trump-visited-golf-123rd-124th-125th-times-president-110128/
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Spekulatius on July 12, 2018, 10:52:42 AM
I think Trump is the biggest troll there is.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on July 14, 2018, 02:09:31 PM
Someday a psychologist/cognitive scientist will come up with measurable intensity levels of Trump Derangement Syndrome, perhaps on a grade of 1-10.  For now, we can see lo-grade and hi-grade skill categories.

12 Russian intelligence officers have been indicted in the U.S. election meddling investigation, U.S. Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein announced.

https://twitter.com/globalnews/status/1017805595267747840

https://twitter.com/pattymo/status/1017807100158906368


Including at least 1 canidate for US. Congress and Senior US Official in the Trump Campaign Administration.


Docs: https://www.justice.gov/file/1080281/download

This is at the lo-grade skill level:  the mere citation of random "source material," without comment, let alone a convincing, skillfully woven narrative. 

For the past 24 hours, I was disappointed in the quality of the anti-Trumpers on this board.  I missed the hi-grade intricate connect-the-dots narratives from Schwab711.

Thanks to LC, Schwab711 has been resurrected:

Not to ignore mueller

You are ignoring Mueller by focusing on the fake problem of the day. Trump illegally conspired. It's plain as day. Some of the crimes happened on national TV.

The pipeline deal has already been brought up ad nauseam over the past 6-12 months by German politicans and NATO allies. Trump is not ballsy for bringing this up, he's just causing problems.

Why the hell do people keep listening to Trump when all he's done is lie to you? It's like an abused wife or stockholm syndrome. I don't say that lightly.

The day before the Trump Tower meeting (the first day after the meeting date was confirmed!!), DCLeaks is set up to distribute DNC/DCCC/Padesta emails. The Trump Tower meeting happens the next day and they claim nothing happened during the meeting!?!?

Exactly one week later Rep McCarthy and Rep Ryan talk about RU dividing Ukraine against itself (which Manafort was presented as the mastermind of in his 40+ count indictment). Ryan called is "maniacal". McCarthy, one week after DCLeaks, said he thought "Putin paid Trump".

Dutch intel watched in real time as the DNC servers were hacked. They sent this info to the CIA directly (I think we went there but whatever). It was included in an indictment!! Dutch intel was willing to burn an absolutely huge honeypot to help our country and because of politics, some folks are like "well, what about those data transfer speeds?" The math on the data transfer speeds were wrong. The guy who wrote the blog ended up removing himself from his original opinion. US IC received the feeds so they could watch the dang act as it happened! Trump knew this! He still misled you about it. Now we know he was lying all this time and people will still believe his next bullshit comment.

Why don't you want answers from McConnell about why he prevented Obama from doing anything about this? Why don't you want answers from your party about why they nominated a candidate that was so obviously breaking the law and conspiring with a foreign adversary?

Why the hell does anyone still trust and support Trump? It's maniacal that some news shows tell listeners to hate Democrats/liberals/leftys multiple times an hour. That they are the cause of everything. It's a sick feedback loop.


Edit: Finally we also get some reprieve on the 'polls' issue. From the indictment we know, on July 6th, Julian Assange estimated Trump's odds of winning at about 25%. 538/Nate Silver reported 22.4% that day. NYT was at ~10% (using only national polls - little did they know that RU had just released the detailed DNC voter analytics one month prior. This is how RU 'meddled' in a few key Rust Belt states.).

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/

No free lunch,

I think you are getting things confused. A lot has happened since Russia/Georgia 10 years ago. We had problems. Tried a failed *reset* (Romney ran against this policy with Russia/Iran). Then Russia/Crimea. New sanctions are placed on certain Russians.

Clinton pushed for arming Ukraine. Obama still didn't want a conflict at that time (2015 - in part due to Middle East). HRC views basically mirror GOP. Manafort/Trump change GOP policy towards Obama at the convention. Thats the fear. Why did he do it while publicly admonishing Obama?

https://www.politico.com/story/2015/01/hillary-clinton-ukraine-aid-military-financial-114462

https://www.npr.org/2016/08/06/488876597/how-the-trump-campaign-weakened-the-republican-platform-on-aid-to-ukraine

https://www.npr.org/2017/12/04/568310790/2016-rnc-delegate-trump-directed-change-to-party-platform-on-ukraine-support

Part of the Russia/Ukraine/US issue is Obama/Clinton didn't want to support Yanukovych (supported by Manafort) and Clinton was fine with Poroshenko. Trump is anti-Poroshenko because of Manafort.

Trump is not some outsider. The issue with Trump is the legality behind his rise to power (among many, many other issues).

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.eu/article/mikheil-saakashvili-petro-poroshenko-enemies-of-putin-but-no-longer-friends/amp/

Arguing Trump is anti-Russia makes zero sense, especially when it's only supported by Trump calling out Germany's pipeline from Russia 6-12 months after Merkel and most of the EU have cautioned about it. Trump was putting on a show for specific media outlets. The pipeline was approved during the reset. There is zero debate about Trump being pro-Russia.

These are excellent examples of how "resource material"  looks like "evidence" strung together into a convincing narrative, but is probably really how Conspiracy Theories are made:  confirmation bias.  And it's why the Trump-Russia Collusion Narrative will live eternally on future Top 10 Lists of Conspiracy Theories, and keep the History [sic] Channel alive.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rkbabang on July 14, 2018, 04:15:11 PM
I think Trump is the biggest troll there is.

Absolutely.  This here is one of the best things he’s done since becoming president.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/988504/Queen-Donald-Trump-UK-visit-video-royal-protocol-Windsor-Castle-royal-news-protest
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on July 14, 2018, 04:30:42 PM
More lore to keep the Trump-Russia Conspiracy Theory alive:

https://twitter.com/ReformedBroker/status/1018241797015957504

https://www.newyorker.com/news-desk/swamp-chronicles/where-did-donald-trump-get-200-million-dollars-to-buy-his-money-losing-scottish-golf-club

and:

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/07/mueller-indictment-suggests-trump-colluding-with-russia.html

A primary reason Great Conspiracy Theories never die is that they are pretty convincing, especially if you want to believe.  It is the rare exceptional person who later can admit they were duped by their confirmation bias.  Since this CoBF board has many exceptional minds, I wonder how many will be exceptional and come around decades from now.

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on July 16, 2018, 09:39:04 PM
Pure TDS:

"Trump pushed his personal agenda, not the national interest, at Putin summit"

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/16/trump-pushed-his-personal-agenda-not-the-national-interest-at-putin-.html

"Former CIA Director John Brennan condemned Trump’s words as “nothing short of treasonous.” Others, in less provocative terms, joined in harsh denunciations."

https://twitter.com/Kasparov63/status/1018893198058573824

"I'm ready to call this the darkest hour in the history of the American presidency. Let me know if you can think of any competition.

https://twitter.com/JeffFlake/status/1018891518654976000

"I never thought I would see the day when our American President would stand on the stage with the Russian President and place blame on the United States for Russian aggression. This is shameful."

https://twitter.com/EdBorgato/status/1018895623074922496

"There is not a single conservative viewpoint on taxes, regulation, immigration, SCOTUS, abortion, 2nd amendment, etc, that would be invalidated by also acknowledging the pathological self-interest, dishonesty, and incompetence, of someone who shares your views."

https://twitter.com/DanRather/status/1018883595463622662

"The President of the United States trusts the word of a former KGB agent over the consensus of the American intelligence community backed by a ton of facts. That is a shocking reality. Everyone who excuses Trump’s behavior must answer that now, and when history inevitably judges."

https://twitter.com/AshleyRParker/status/1018886573306318849

"Putin, a former KGB spy chief, has a pretty good poker face. BUT even he looks like he can't believe his luck, as Trump stands next to him, on foreign soil, and trashes his own intelligence agencies, and repeatedly praises Russia."

https://twitter.com/firstadopter/status/1018926766461681665

"When asked specifically about having compromising material on Trump, does Putin explicitly deny it other than saying it is "nonsense"? https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/16/i-hold-both-countries-responsible-here-is-the-full-transcript-of-tr.html https://twitter.com/firstadopter/status/1018926766461681665/photo/1 "

https://twitter.com/TheRickWilson/status/1018921757493866497

"Let me tell you, if Barack Obama had said the crap Trump said today there would already be 10, 000 hypercaustic elected Republican press releases, Facebook posts, and tweets. There would be a hundred calls for impeachment by close of business today."

https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1018928393428111360

"Wonderful statement by McCain. He concludes: “Americans are waiting and hoping for President Trump to embrace that sacred responsibility. One can only hope they are not waiting totally in vain.”
But I’m afraid we will be waiting in vain. If so, what is to be done? https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1018928393428111360/photo/1

https://twitter.com/Liz_Cheney/status/1018908769969934336

"As a member of the House Armed Services Committee, I am deeply troubled by President Trump’s defense of Putin against the intelligence agencies of the U.S. & his suggestion of moral equivalence between the U.S. and Russia. Russia poses a grave threat to our national security."

https://twitter.com/AshLeeStrong/status/1018911494778638340

Speaker Ryan’s statement on today’s press conference: https://twitter.com/AshLeeStrong/status/1018911494778638340/photo/1

https://twitter.com/OutFrontCNN/status/1019008001846497280

""Michael Anton was going to be here ... he canceled, and he knows I'm going to tell you this, because he said he could not defend the president on his actions today." - Erin Burnett explains the absence of Trump's fmr. National Security Council spokesman https://cnn.it/2L3D3wk https://twitter.com/OutFrontCNN/status/1019008001846497280/video/1

https://twitter.com/axios/status/1018893795696545792

"Neil Cavuto of Fox Business calls Trump's press conference "disgusting", "That sets us back a lot." https://twitter.com/axios/status/1018893795696545792/video/1

https://twitter.com/BryanDBender/status/1019021011428073472

"JUST IN: Former Defense Secretary Ash Carter, not known to utter anything unambiguous: “I never saw or imagined so uneven a handover of American security interests and principles with nothing in return...It was like watching the destruction of a cathedral.”"

https://twitter.com/axios/status/1019037465913581568

"Trump to Sean Hannity: "[Putin] said there's absolutely no collusion, which you know, and everybody who watches this show knows... And I tell you, I thought it was a really amazing time ... I thought that President Putin was very, very strong." https://twitter.com/axios/status/1019037465913581568/video/1

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-russia-summit/trump-backs-putin-on-election-meddling-at-summit-stirs-fierce-criticism-idUSKBN1K601D

"Although he faced pressure from critics, allied countries and even his own staff to take a tough line, Trump spoke not a single disparaging word in public about Moscow on any of the issues that have brought relations between the two powers to the lowest ebb since the Cold War.
Instead, he denounced the "stupidity" of his own country's policies, especially the decision to investigate Russian interference in the 2016 election. ...

Bill Burns, a former U.S. deputy secretary of state and ambassador to Russia, said in a telephone interview: "I have ... seen a lot of performances by presidents on the world stage, but I cannot think of one that was more appalling than this one."

"I never thought I would see the day when our American President would stand on the stage with the Russian President and place blame on the United States for Russian aggression. This is shameful."


Fuck Donald Trump

Did any of you get physically hurt by Trump/Russia? Did it cost you money? Did you lose your home or have a family member harmed? I know I still get up in the morning and have the same day to day routine as I did under Obama. The false outrage is absurd and people can't seem to see that they are just being played by Democrats looking to create distractions and road blocks for the Trump administration. Nothing more to it.
When you look at the numbers, the attack on Pearl Harbour harmed virtually Americans. Yes, there were a few on that island that took it hard. But really everyone else was ok. Why the overreaction?

9/11 affected even less people than Pearl Harbour. Why didn't the US just move on?

When you live in the past, you stay in the past.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rb on July 16, 2018, 10:06:06 PM
Did any of you get physically hurt by Trump/Russia? Did it cost you money? Did you lose your home or have a family member harmed? I know I still get up in the morning and have the same day to day routine as I did under Obama. The false outrage is absurd and people can't seem to see that they are just being played by Democrats looking to create distractions and road blocks for the Trump administration. Nothing more to it.
When you look at the numbers, the attack on Pearl Harbour harmed virtually Americans. Yes, there were a few on that island that took it hard. But really everyone else was ok. Why the overreaction?

9/11 affected even less people than Pearl Harbour. Why didn't the US just move on?

When you live in the past, you stay in the past.
Now US motto: When we get attacked we just get up and let bygones be bygones. Or better yet: Meh!
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Spekulatius on July 18, 2018, 01:17:51 PM
We should rename the thread to : Trump‘s derangement syndrome
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: doughishere on July 19, 2018, 07:06:13 AM
Trump passed on the Cowboys in 1984. I dont know why I put it in here it just seemed like a nice catch all Trump topic.

https://twitter.com/darrenrovell/status/1019609629188243456
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on July 19, 2018, 07:09:43 AM
Grew 20% for 25 years and Trump turned it down  ;D
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on July 19, 2018, 04:26:01 PM
Trump's love-fest with Putin and Russia is just perplexing especially in contrast to the hostility toward virtually all of the US's traditional allies. Additionally you have members of his cabinet almost explicitly stating opposite positions (from Trump) regarding all-things related to Russia. These things just feed the suspician that there is in-fact something there. The situation is bizarre which makes one naturally wonder if there is some missing context.

The US needs Russia/Putin for all kinds of world issues.  Here's a few:

1. Continued progress with North Korea.  Russia would be a major player is providing security guarantees along with the US and China and Japan.

2. Lower oil prices, for the US, among others.

3. Helping the US finish the combat with ISIS and other Islamic terrorist activities worldwide.

4. Middle East reform, such as getting Iran out of Syria and getting Iran to agree to a better nuclear deal that would satisfy the US, Israel, and others.

That's why you "play nice" with Putin.  That's 3D chess in negotiating on a world stage as a world power.  The MSM and CoBF board member anti-Trumpers are playing tiddly-winks.

Now substitute the word "Trump" for all the bolded US in the above, and it reads completely differently and entirely sinisterly for the rabid anti-Trumpers.  That's Trump Derangement Syndrome.

And more severe TDS:

https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1020043060510507008

I'll take an ideologue who isn't a narcissistic pathological shady liar con man rapist authoritarian racist incurious incoherent easy-to-influence petty lazy vainglory snowflake the-buck-stops-elsewhere bad judge of character fully-conflicted indebted bad businessman like Trump any day.

Any Republican with control of both houses would've given us tax cuts. Wouldn't even have had to sell out your integrity for it, too.

https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1020014927472463872
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Spekulatius on July 20, 2018, 05:45:22 AM
Who is deranged - the people complaining and obsessing about Trump, or those that seek a logic and overarching strategy in his actions?

Maybe both?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rkbabang on July 20, 2018, 06:47:13 AM
Who is deranged - the people complaining and obsessing about Trump, or those that seek a logic and overarching strategy in his actions?

Maybe both?

Certainly both.

Trump is just Trolling everyone (on both sides).  When you see it, then sit back and appreciate it, it is hilarious.  And I'm not even sure that it is intentional on his part, which is even more hilarious.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Spekulatius on July 20, 2018, 08:53:22 AM
Who is deranged - the people complaining and obsessing about Trump, or those that seek a logic and overarching strategy in his actions?

Maybe both?

Certainly both.

Trump is just Trolling everyone (on both sides).  When you see it, then sit back and appreciate it, it is hilarious.  And I'm not even sure that it is intentional on his part, which is even more hilarious.

Agreed. I actually think that watching politics has never been that entertaining in my lifetime. Had what is happening now  been a scripted TV show 10 years ago, critiques would have scolded it is a surreal.

I am just a bit concerned that the fun gets a bit out of control.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rkbabang on July 20, 2018, 09:12:44 AM
Who is deranged - the people complaining and obsessing about Trump, or those that seek a logic and overarching strategy in his actions?

Maybe both?

Certainly both.

Trump is just Trolling everyone (on both sides).  When you see it, then sit back and appreciate it, it is hilarious.  And I'm not even sure that it is intentional on his part, which is even more hilarious.

Agreed. I actually think that watching politics has never been that entertaining in my lifetime. Had what is happening now  been a scripted TV show 10 years ago, critiques would have scolded it is a surreal.

I am just a bit concerned that the fun gets a bit out of control.

"In any sensible reality we are all dead"
http://smbc-comics.com/comic/history-is-weird

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Spekulatius on July 20, 2018, 11:38:46 AM
^ In investing, we call this survivorship bias.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on July 20, 2018, 02:03:25 PM
Trump is just Trolling everyone (on both sides).  When you see it, then sit back and appreciate it, it is hilarious.  And I'm not even sure that it is intentional on his part, which is even more hilarious.

And this is why it does not surprise me that you are an anarchist (or however you wish to label) :D
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rkbabang on July 20, 2018, 02:37:29 PM
Trump is just Trolling everyone (on both sides).  When you see it, then sit back and appreciate it, it is hilarious.  And I'm not even sure that it is intentional on his part, which is even more hilarious.

And this is why it does not surprise me that you are an anarchist (or however you wish to label) :D

You’ve probably made the same observations, you just don’t see the humor in it.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on July 20, 2018, 07:51:33 PM
Not probably - that's exactly it.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rkbabang on July 20, 2018, 10:59:47 PM
Not probably - that's exactly it.

These things are all out of your sphere of control, so you can either laugh or you can cry.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on July 21, 2018, 12:27:36 AM
Oh I'm usually with you on that one, but something seems pretty crappy about throwing in the towel on democracy.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: doughishere on July 21, 2018, 09:59:14 AM
https://twitter.com/MollyEMcCluskey/status/1020657356093390848

Spotted in Harrisonburg VA. Virginia plates. Russian flag. Is this a thing now?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on July 23, 2018, 11:41:56 AM
Oh how ironic! Would your opinion change if it was found out that one or more of the posts/articles came from a non-U.S. citizen? Perhaps even Russian?

im already well aware of several posters on here that are non-u.s. citizens, tard.  check this out, some of them even post on this topic.

I think the joke went over your head...

it did. mea culpa.

Much of TDS can be attributed to Trump's humor going over the heads of anti-Trumpers.  He is the best tweeter and one of the best stand-up comics around.  He is likely to go down as the funniest President ever.  (Yes, humor is subjective.)
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cameronfen on July 23, 2018, 01:23:13 PM
Oh how ironic! Would your opinion change if it was found out that one or more of the posts/articles came from a non-U.S. citizen? Perhaps even Russian?

im already well aware of several posters on here that are non-u.s. citizens, tard.  check this out, some of them even post on this topic.

I think the joke went over your head...

it did. mea culpa.

Much of TDS can be attributed to Trump's humor going over the heads of anti-Trumpers.  He is the best tweeter and one of the best stand-up comics around.  He is likely to go down as the funniest President ever.  (Yes, humor is subjective.)

If threatening to blow North Korea and Iran off the map is humor, it is certainly not a joke appropriate for the leader a country with enough nuclear weapons to annihilate the earth like 10 times over. 
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Spekulatius on July 23, 2018, 01:34:57 PM
^ Trump is using all caps in his twitter reply, so things are getting serious.

I don’t even think that Rouhani speech was threatening the US ( at least not a directectly) if I read this correctly. More like stating “ Don’t mess with us “, which has been par for the course for decades.

It’s today’s story, tomorrow there will be other fish to fry. Everyone chill a bit and have a cold one.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Liberty on July 23, 2018, 01:41:21 PM
^ Trump is using all caps in his twitter reply, so things are getting serious.

I don’t even think that Rouhani speech was threatening the US ( at least not a directectly) if I read this correctly. More like stating “ Don’t mess with us “, which has been par for the course for decades.

It’s today’s story, tomorrow there will be other fish to fry. Everyone chill a bit and have a cold one.

Trump has always projected on others what he's thinking/doing. Like when he was attacking Obama for playing too much golf while spending his days golfing, which he's still doing. Attacking Romney for not releasing his taxes quickly enough while not releasing his, calling others corrupt when he's been living as a con man for decades, etc.

There used to be this too:

https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1021239129886142465

Quite clear that he's trying all kinds of ways to move attention away from his latest problems (Helsinki, Mueller, etc).
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on July 23, 2018, 01:52:26 PM
True to time, the Buffett test of, "would you be OK if your daughter married him?", holds up not just to Investment Managers, and CEOs, but Presidents as well. 
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cardboard on July 23, 2018, 02:06:47 PM
At least with Trump, I would not be afraid of my daughter not having a roof over her ahead and having to toil because of a lazy, incompetent or manipulative husband. I can't say the same for some here.

Cardboard
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Liberty on July 23, 2018, 02:08:51 PM
At least with Trump, I would not be afraid of my daughter not having a roof over her ahead and having to toil because of a lazy, incompetent or manipulative husband. I can't say the same for some here.

Cardboard

I hope you never have kids. Of maybe if you do, you'll think more about such things?

The dude's on his third marriage, is known to have cheated habitually on his wives, is clearly in a loveless marriage at the moment, had to pay at least two sex workers hush money to run for office, has had many creepy moments on camera with his daughter, talking about dating her and sexualizing her, and he's admitted to habitual sexual assault on tape, which was confirmed by over a dozen women who are just as credible as any of the accusers of Weinstein or Crosby or any of these disgusting criminals. On top of that he's a bad businessman and terrible operator who constantly brags about how great he is, who inherited a fortune (which he lies about, claiming it was just a million dollar loan) and had worse returns than if he had indexed despite being highly levered, flirting with bankruptcy often and most of his paper net worth is mark-to-myth (as Buffett would call it) brand value. But hey, he can provide for your hypothetical daughter and keep her as a housewife, which any plumber could do, so good enough for Cardboard...
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Vish_ram on July 23, 2018, 02:16:15 PM
Trump is the best thing that has happened to US politics.

He has exposed the hypocrisy of Republicans & Conservatives in particular. He has shown that this group is willing to sacrifice democracy, constitution, patriotism & many things that make US great to achieve their limited goal of getting low taxes, trample minority rights, pro-life, limit minority voting, placing right wing judges etc.
He exposed Republican's fake patriotism, fake cry for family values etc.

Trump exposed the elitism & minority pandering of Clintons/left.

He exposed the fakeness in the media, their biases, chasing the next outrage, going after the baser instincts of the masses.

He exposed the hypocrisy of Americans in general. US was pushing for democracy in many countries all the while suppressing true democracy in US by gerrymandering districts, making voting difficult for minorities, etc.

He exposed the lobbyists (read about Podesta group).

He has exposed the deep seated racism in the rural US. Trump is not the disease, but the symptom of US losing the moral authority.

He has shown that Congress & Senate are just partisan pawns that lack the backbone. He has shown that politicians place their survival above everything else.

He has shown that FBI and other agencies are a bunch of partisan hacks. (Comey in particular)

PS I'm a naturalized US citizen.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Gregmal on July 23, 2018, 02:29:50 PM
Trump is the best thing that has happened to US politics.

He has exposed the hypocrisy of Republicans & Conservatives in particular. He has shown that this group is willing to sacrifice democracy, constitution, patriotism & many things that make US great to achieve their limited goal of getting low taxes, trample minority rights, pro-life, limit minority voting etc.
He exposed Republican's fake patriotism, fake cry for family values etc.

Trump exposed the elitism & minority pandering of Clintons/left.

He exposed the fakeness in the media, their biases, chasing the next outrage, going after the baser instincts of the masses.

He exposed the hypocrisy of Americans in general. US was pushing for democracy in many countries all the while suppressing true democracy in US by gerrymandering districts, making voting difficult for minorities, etc.

He exposed the lobbyists (read about Podesta group).

He has exposed the deep seated racism in the rural US. Trump is not the disease, but the symptom of US losing the moral authority.

He has shown that Congress & Senate are just partisan pawns that lack the backbone. He has shown that politicians place their survival above everything else.

He has shown that FBI and other agencies are a bunch of partisan hacks. (Comey in particular)

PS I'm a naturalized US citizen.

100%

Trump was always a Democrat. And then somehow ended up on the Republican ticket shouting the same rhetoric and catchy phrases he had been using since the 1980's.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: EliG on July 23, 2018, 02:42:27 PM
Great post, Vish_ram.

Add Supreme Court to the list. They are partisan hacks first, jurists second.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Vish_ram on July 23, 2018, 02:47:41 PM
Great post, Vish_ram.

Add Supreme Court to the list. They are partisan hacks first, jurists second.
you must have telepathy. I was just about updating my post to include this. I listen to right wing talk shows and remember those guys saying, lets vote for Trump so that we can get the right (meaning rightwing) judges.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cardboard on July 23, 2018, 03:14:41 PM
No choice. Just imagine a 6 to 3 left-wing nut judges which would have been the case under Clinton. Bye bye freedom!

Cardboard
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Gregmal on July 23, 2018, 04:33:59 PM
No choice. Just imagine a 6 to 3 left-wing nut judges which would have been the case under Clinton. Bye bye freedom!

Cardboard

LOL yea we'd all be forced to let illegals live in our homes and be issued harassment citations for waking them up during midnight trips to the fridge...We'd then further be scrutinized for "shaming" them when we get into the car we own to go to the job we have in the morning... Of course I'm kidding but the above SC scenario would be a nightmare.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on July 23, 2018, 04:44:50 PM
Trump is the best thing that has happened to US politics.

He has exposed...

A bit shortsighted, no? These issues have been around for decades. 

But I agree that Trump is just a symptom.

The root causes (IMHO) have been discussed in various forms on this forum for YEARS. Income inequality and education are two big ones, if you ask me.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: vikx01 on July 23, 2018, 04:46:12 PM

Trump is not the disease, but the symptom of US losing the moral authority.


Totally agree. US population got what they deserved. Trouble is that the world has to deal what the US unleashed on itself.


It's quite entertaining and fun watching the news these days. I wish another term for Trump on the US. That just may be the tiny arsonist in me saying that ;)


Let the rest of the world make trade alliances and agreements amongst themselve leaving US out. It's about time things changed...
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on July 23, 2018, 05:55:52 PM
Interesting debate.

Read an article this AM (recent interview with Mr. Peter Thiel):
https://www.weltwoche.ch/ausgaben/2018-29/artikel/en-hypnotische-massenphanomene-die-weltwoche-ausgabe-29-2018.html
He describes the last election as the Flight 93 election where the idea was: "we're going to try {something}" given was is perceived to be a train wreck scenario.

And another relevant comment by Mr. Henry Kissinger who has witnessed his share of difficult scenarios:
https://www.ft.com/content/926a66b0-8b49-11e8-bf9e-8771d5404543
"I think Trump may be one of those figures in history who appears from time to time to mark the end of an era and to force it to give up its old pretences. It doesn’t necessarily mean that he knows this, or that he is considering any great alternative. It could just be an accident."

So the election result implied screwing up on purpose?

The underlying "disease" may be the extend and pretend contraption.

Interesting times.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rkbabang on July 23, 2018, 06:10:44 PM
Interesting debate.

Read an article this AM (recent interview with Mr. Peter Thiel):
https://www.weltwoche.ch/ausgaben/2018-29/artikel/en-hypnotische-massenphanomene-die-weltwoche-ausgabe-29-2018.html
He describes the last election as the Flight 93 election where the idea was: "we're going to try {something}" given was is perceived to be a train wreck scenario.

I agree with Thiel. And the fact that Hilary was the other candidate meant that there really was no other choice.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rb on July 23, 2018, 06:33:56 PM
Trump is the best thing that has happened to US politics.

He has exposed...

A bit shortsighted, no? These issues have been around for decades. 

But I agree that Trump is just a symptom.

The root causes (IMHO) have been discussed in various forms on this forum for YEARS. Income inequality and education are two big ones, if you ask me.
I think the short sighted part may be calling it a good thing. But yeah it was a progression in getting here and it was only a matter of time until we got here. This is just the point where we ran out of time/end of the line sort of thing. I almost piss myself laughing at the people that say that Trump did a hostile takeover of the Republican Party. He didn't. He liberated it. This is what they wanted all along.

I agree that income inequality and education are two of the big issues. I would also add the Jesus people.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Vish_ram on July 23, 2018, 06:44:17 PM
Let me be a Devil's advocate and argue why Trump's victory is beneficial in one regard.

There is such an impotent rage across vast swaths of the US populace. The reasons have been discussed at length, but still I'll highlight a few.

1) Income inequality as a result of loss of collective bargaining, loss of manufacturing jobs due to offshoring, technology disruption, etc. You cannot blame everything on politics, there are forces at play for 100's of years due to free trade, mobility of labor force, competition etc. Wages for median workers have hardly gone up and people don't feel good.

2) Opiod crisis has devastated communities with no help in sight.

3) Healthcare pricing is predatory. Free market capitalism and health care for the masses cannot co-exist. That is the sad reality. This is the #1 reason for personal bankruptcy.

4) Obama rekindled a lot of fears; the left was pulling the country far left with things like LGBTQABCDEFGHXYZ. Americans are fairly tolerant people, with hard core racists numbering less than 10%. The far right wing may hardly be 20%. Most people hated the trend where far left was wielding more power and biting more than they can chew.  Gun control was another issue. Pro-choice was another. The changes were just too many too soon. Obama poisoned the well by taking these positions over time that made Democratic party toxic to middle America.

This impotent rage caused a pressure cooker situation. If left unchecked, it'll cause a social revolution. Trump pushed it out by a decade or two.

Trump capitalized perfectly on this rage. He had an opponent who was comically clueless in gauging the pulse of the country. He has now let a lot of pressure out. Nothing is going to change, at the least, they feel better that someone is representing them.

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Spekulatius on July 24, 2018, 04:03:53 AM
^ Interesting that “pro choice” is considered a a leftist liberal position. It is the de facto standard and many countries around the world in Europe for example, with the exception of Ireland.

If you believe the author of Freakonomics is right, it is also the major contributor to falling crime rates in thr 80’s and 90’s about 18 years after they were allowed depending on state.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cardboard on July 24, 2018, 05:24:56 AM
It is indeed interesting since liberals claim to protect the weak and innocent.

And if you look at it from a very cynical point of view, fewer babies poorly taken care of means less cost to society, probably less crime as you mentioned and fewer votes for the left.

Cardboard
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on July 24, 2018, 07:03:10 AM
CNN probably violated some provision in HIPAA regarding patient confidentiality by broadcasting this, but for those of you who've never witnessed a psychiatrist interviewing a psychotic patient in a medical facility, here's Dr. Paul, trained ophthalmologist but here, by necessity, doing a masterful job diagnosing Trump Derangement Syndrome:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/07/16/rand_paul_people_hate_trump_so_much_they_refuse_to_work_responsibly_with_russia.html

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on July 24, 2018, 09:21:48 AM
Quote
psychiatrist interviewing a psychotic patient
Quote
trained ophthalmologist
:-\

You must be blind!!!
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Gregmal on July 24, 2018, 01:16:53 PM
https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/russia-trump-collusion-investigation/
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on July 24, 2018, 04:04:00 PM
Quote
psychiatrist interviewing a psychotic patient
Quote
trained ophthalmologist
:-\

You must be blind!!!

ophthalmologist but here, by necessity, doing a masterful job diagnosing Trump Derangement Syndrome


Reading comprehension problems?  (another feature of TDS???)
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on July 24, 2018, 09:07:58 PM
Right, I understood what you were saying. I think what you missed was my insinuation that Paul did a poor job in his "diagnosis". Because he is an eye doctor, not a psychiatrist.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: doughishere on July 25, 2018, 06:07:34 PM
Trump flags made in China.

https://i.imgur.com/JHgLWUa.jpg
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on July 25, 2018, 06:11:35 PM
Oh how ironic! Would your opinion change if it was found out that one or more of the posts/articles came from a non-U.S. citizen? Perhaps even Russian?

im already well aware of several posters on here that are non-u.s. citizens, tard.  check this out, some of them even post on this topic.

I think the joke went over your head...

it did. mea culpa.

Much of TDS can be attributed to Trump's humor going over the heads of anti-Trumpers.  He is the best tweeter and one of the best stand-up comics around.  He is likely to go down as the funniest President ever.  (Yes, humor is subjective.)

If threatening to blow North Korea and Iran off the map is humor, it is certainly not a joke appropriate for the leader a country with enough nuclear weapons to annihilate the earth like 10 times over.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1022267646119763970
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: doughishere on July 27, 2018, 06:20:32 AM
I think Trump is the biggest troll there is.

Trump isnt the biggest troll. Putin is.

 https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1022830916081733632
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Liberty on July 27, 2018, 09:42:10 AM
I think Trump is the biggest troll there is.

Trump isnt the biggest troll. Putin is.

 https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1022830916081733632

Wow!

Meanwhile, Trump is running taxpayer-funded informercial from the oval office:

https://twitter.com/BostonJerry/status/1022184638150791169

"Trump promotes Jeanine Pirro's new book in Oval Office"

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Di-HXpXU8AEhARu.jpg)

"Government officials can't use their position to promote private business interests, so Trump promoting his friend's book from the Oval Office is illegal. He doesn't own that office, we do."
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Spekulatius on July 27, 2018, 09:50:06 AM
^ LOL It used to be that politicians trades power and connections for monetary gains after they were in the office. Now they do it, while they are in office and don’t even try to hide it.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rkbabang on July 29, 2018, 04:29:22 PM
The struggle is real.
https://www.newsweek.com/therapists-report-rise-anxiety-trump-was-elected-1046687
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: investor-man on August 01, 2018, 01:49:40 PM
"Trump Derangement Syndrome"

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: investor-man on August 01, 2018, 01:55:44 PM
I had only really heard of the qanon crowd briefly until they made a showing in Florida. What a bunch of idiots. Do you still have any question about whether or not a social media campaign filled with falsehoods can influence an election? Remember that Trump basically won by something like 50k votes in a few key areas.

Also please for the love of God if you buy any of the nonsense these guys are selling, be proud and make it known! I'd love to know the investments you are making!
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on August 01, 2018, 02:40:32 PM
I had only really heard of the qanon crowd briefly until they made a showing in Florida. What a bunch of idiots. Do you still have any question about whether or not a social media campaign filled with falsehoods can influence an election? Remember that Trump basically won by something like 50k votes in a few key areas.

Also please for the love of God if you buy any of the nonsense these guys are selling, be proud and make it known! I'd love to know the investments you are making!
Polite non-partisan comment from an outsider who submits that some strategies can lead to deplorable results.
http://time.com/4965093/conspiracy-theories-beliefs/
"Recent research suggests that the worst way to change the minds of the conspiracy crowd is to criticize or, worse, mock their beliefs. That only puts them on the defensive, making them less rather than more likely to change their minds. What may work better is non-judgmentally discussing the consequences of believing in conspiracy theories."

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on August 01, 2018, 02:41:06 PM
The struggle is real.
https://www.newsweek.com/therapists-report-rise-anxiety-trump-was-elected-1046687

. . . and the condition is medical.  If I had to start this thread all over again, I may not have used the word "derangement" since it sounds somewhat facetious (although taken seriously by those afflicted).

Perhaps those with a serious case of Trump Anxiety Syndrome will find a way out of their hysteria bubble if they realize they have anxiety, which is a medical/psychological problem and amenable to therapy, and that the problem is not with Trump or his supporters.

https://twitter.com/DalaiLama/status/1023865418233126912

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/the-problem-with-fear-in-politics



Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: investor-man on August 01, 2018, 05:32:04 PM
I had only really heard of the qanon crowd briefly until they made a showing in Florida. What a bunch of idiots. Do you still have any question about whether or not a social media campaign filled with falsehoods can influence an election? Remember that Trump basically won by something like 50k votes in a few key areas.

Also please for the love of God if you buy any of the nonsense these guys are selling, be proud and make it known! I'd love to know the investments you are making!
Polite non-partisan comment from an outsider who submits that some strategies can lead to deplorable results.
http://time.com/4965093/conspiracy-theories-beliefs/
"Recent research suggests that the worst way to change the minds of the conspiracy crowd is to criticize or, worse, mock their beliefs. That only puts them on the defensive, making them less rather than more likely to change their minds. What may work better is non-judgmentally discussing the consequences of believing in conspiracy theories."

I hear you, but I'm sure there's a link out there on the internet about the healing power expressing yourself on and quaint little internet forum. It's been a very frustrating time to be an American.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Gregmal on August 01, 2018, 06:01:13 PM
I had only really heard of the qanon crowd briefly until they made a showing in Florida. What a bunch of idiots. Do you still have any question about whether or not a social media campaign filled with falsehoods can influence an election? Remember that Trump basically won by something like 50k votes in a few key areas.

Also please for the love of God if you buy any of the nonsense these guys are selling, be proud and make it known! I'd love to know the investments you are making!
Polite non-partisan comment from an outsider who submits that some strategies can lead to deplorable results.
http://time.com/4965093/conspiracy-theories-beliefs/
"Recent research suggests that the worst way to change the minds of the conspiracy crowd is to criticize or, worse, mock their beliefs. That only puts them on the defensive, making them less rather than more likely to change their minds. What may work better is non-judgmentally discussing the consequences of believing in conspiracy theories."

I hear you, but I'm sure there's a link out there on the internet about the healing power expressing yourself on and quaint little internet forum. It's been a very frustrating time to be an American.

Yea, real frustrating... Booming stock market. Lower taxes. Lowest level of unemployment in ages, healthy economy. As much as I didn't care for Obama, the aforementioned things(minus lower taxes) were true under him as well and my life was pretty good. So the bitch about the President stuff is fun, so is the debates about it, but the majority of people control their own destiny and the President shouldnt really be an excuse for one's own issues.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on August 01, 2018, 07:45:17 PM
I hear you, but I'm sure there's a link out there on the internet about the healing power expressing yourself on and quaint little internet forum. It's been a very frustrating time to be an American.
Fair enough.
I try to focus on things I can change and sometimes it is hard to do.

Being a non-American, the value of my inputs may be limited but I thought the following interesting:

When President Macron came to the G7 meeting, he addressed the journalists and made some interesting comments which, I think, did not quite make it to the general worldwide audience. Interesting because the relative subtlety of the wording makes it difficult to translate.

Either he meant:

-With the recent election, the US is finding its new course of history 
OR
-Despite the recent election, the US will find back its course of history

I guess that, as a US citizen, you have to define what President Macron meant.

Anyways, to go back to the idea of things outside of one's control, here's a link that may help you put things in perspective:
https://biggeekdad.com/2017/03/trump-induced-anxiety/

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on August 01, 2018, 08:09:01 PM
Anyways, to go back to the idea of things outside of one's control, here's a link that may help you put things in perspective:
https://biggeekdad.com/2017/03/trump-induced-anxiety/

A masterpiece!
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on August 01, 2018, 09:57:29 PM
Stupidity - not trying to fight an injustice "outside of your control"

Regardless, nothing an anxious about electing an idiot. It is bound to happen in any democracy. The stupidity is benignly accepting it.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on August 02, 2018, 06:05:03 AM
Stupidity - not trying to fight an injustice "outside of your control"

Regardless, nothing an anxious about electing an idiot. It is bound to happen in any democracy. The stupidity is benignly accepting it.

Trying to internalize your last post.
If I understand you well you did not mean "stupid" which points to an inability to understand but really meant lacking courage.
At least dumb people have an excuse.
Are you familiar with Hannah Arendt's works?
Here's a sample:
http://www.fupress.net/index.php/iris/article/viewFile/10145/9379

The point of above posts was trying to point out that insulting your opponents (or your allies) may not be the best strategy.

There is one thing (among many others) that I don't like about Mr. Trump and which he is unusually good at: to effectively channel disappointment into resentment.
Trying to humbly reverse that trend.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rkbabang on August 02, 2018, 06:53:10 AM
The struggle is real.
https://www.newsweek.com/therapists-report-rise-anxiety-trump-was-elected-1046687

. . . and the condition is medical.  If I had to start this thread all over again, I may not have used the word "derangement" since it sounds somewhat facetious (although taken seriously by those afflicted).

Perhaps those with a serious case of Trump Anxiety Syndrome will find a way out of their hysteria bubble if they realize they have anxiety, which is a medical/psychological problem and amenable to therapy, and that the problem is not with Trump or his supporters.

https://twitter.com/DalaiLama/status/1023865418233126912

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/the-problem-with-fear-in-politics

The seriously afflicted should seek help before they hurt themselves or others.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/08/01/massachusetts-woman-enraged-by-trump-bumper-sticker-intentionally-rammed-into-car-police-say.html
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: MarkS on August 02, 2018, 08:03:42 AM
Cigarbutt,

I really like your post.  I'm working my way through the article about Arendt.

I do believe, however, that identity politics has been a very successful although very divisive strategy.  See:

http://thefederalist.com/2018/08/01/identity-politics-fuel-hate-instead-fighting/

And

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5385701
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on August 02, 2018, 09:50:37 AM
Quote
If I understand you well you did not mean "stupid" which points to an inability to understand but really meant lacking courage.
At least dumb people have an excuse.
Both. There comes a point where lacking courage is ignorant. Willful ignorance or just plain stupidity is not a valid excuse.

Quote
The point of above posts was trying to point out that insulting your opponents (or your allies) may not be the best strategy.
I'd argue that when people (especially people selected to represent others) behave poorly, it should be shouted from the rooftops.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: DTEJD1997 on August 02, 2018, 10:22:26 AM
hey all:

Trump Derangement Syndrom is a very real thing.  It is also very damaging and ugly.  I've seen it first hand.

I know somebody who was/is a HUGE Hillary supporter.  He gave the campaign money, worked phone banks, volunteered time, plastered their car with her bumper stickers.

Day after the election, person blacks out due to high blood pressure.  Was put in the hospital for two nights.  They think he may have had a mini-stroke.

Person comes home and then starts yelling at the TV whenever Trump is mentioned.  He also starts yelling and talking to himself.  Worst of all, he starts yelling at his wife/children.  They didn't vote/did not vote for Trump.  This guy has also alienated himself from his extended family.  He is CONSTANTLY talking about all things Trump.  The wilder the conspiracy, the better.  Some of what he talks about is non-sensical  (Moon Hitler was helping Trump, everybody knows this!).

He has damaged relations with his wife/children/extended family.  He is clearly not right in the head...very sad.  He is very willing to damage/lose friendships and relations over this election and President Trump.  He is a prime example of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on August 02, 2018, 10:32:08 AM
People are people. There's nothing special about pro-/anti-Trump feelings. These same acts occur by Trump supporters too. It's not a reflection of 75m other D/R's. Stop looking for the bad and find some good in others.

https://americasvoice.org/trumphatemap/
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on August 02, 2018, 10:57:01 AM
It's probably also smart to stop attributing real mental illness to a term coined by TV talking heads.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on August 02, 2018, 10:59:29 AM
Damn it!  I hate it when your brain gets scrambled!  Here's more examples of fallacious thinking expressed ambiguously:

Stupidity - not trying to fight an injustice "outside of your control"

The stupidity is benignly accepting it.

Quote
The point of above posts was trying to point out that insulting your opponents (or your allies) may not be the best strategy.
I'd argue that when people (especially people selected to represent others) behave poorly, it should be shouted from the rooftops.

These statements are clear as mud, and completely misses the point of the video commercial Cigarbutt posted.

The "parody" commercial depicted a brain with abnormal activation of neurotransmitters.  It's a medical problem not under your control.  It's Kahneman's System 1 neural circuits spontaneously activated by social media and functioning autonomously, with System 2 shut down. 

Anti-Trumpers, not just those on this CoBF message board, need to follow the example of those in Alcoholics Anonymous:  "We admitted we were powerless over TDS—that our lives had become unmanageable."  Self-help and similar therapy should be adequate.  More refractory cases may benefit from pharmaceutical assistance.

Stupidity is expressing political opposition with verbal output coming from an uncensored brain hardwired by Trump Panic Disorder Syndrome.

It's probably also smart to stop attributing real mental illness to a term coined by TV talking heads.

You've stumbled into the truth.  It's a real mental illness.  (Did you mean to say this about yourself?)
 

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cardboard on August 02, 2018, 11:09:12 AM
TDS is a manifestation of something that has been known for a long time: Liberalism is a mental disorder.

Cardboard
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on August 02, 2018, 12:24:13 PM
Liberalism is fine, and a necessary political opposition in a free society.  Think Alan Dershowitz.

Some of the worst manifestations of TDS come from Republicans and/or conservatives:  John McCain, Jeff Flake, the Bushes, John Kasich, George F. Will, Michael Gerson, David Frum, parts of the WSJ and National Review, etc.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on August 02, 2018, 01:11:24 PM
Cigarbutt, there's also a component of sheer willpower. What is "outside of your control" for one man may not be the same for another.

Case in point are the stories of various progressive social changes. How many times have the placid minority been oppressed because it is "outside of their control". When things change it is because someone or some people make it so, through protest or violence or democracy or some other means, etc.

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on August 02, 2018, 01:30:38 PM
When things change it is because someone or some people make it so, through protest or violence or democracy or some other means, etc.

Are you a fallacy-expressing machine?!  Re-boot!

"The narrative fallacy addresses our limited ability to look at sequences of facts without weaving an explanation into them, or, equivalently, forcing a logical link, an arrow of relationship upon them. Explanations bind facts together. They make them all the more easily remembered; they help them make more sense. Where this propensity can go wrong is when it increases our impression of understanding."
—Nassim Nicholas Taleb, The Black Swan
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on August 03, 2018, 05:28:03 AM
I do believe, however, that identity politics has been a very successful although very divisive strategy.  See:

http://thefederalist.com/2018/08/01/identity-politics-fuel-hate-instead-fighting/

And

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5385701

Thank you for the links.
The discussion could go in all sorts of directions but, keeping the idea of the thread in mind, I come away with the notion that monopolies on moral authority (from the Left, the Right, or whatever) are not conducive to reaching common grounds based on mutual respect.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: MarkS on August 03, 2018, 05:38:45 AM
Cigarbutt,

You wrote in pertinent part "...I come away with the notion that monopolies on moral authority (from the Left, the Right, or whatever) are not conducive to reaching common grounds based on mutual respect."

 +1
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: no_free_lunch on August 03, 2018, 07:22:21 AM
When things change it is because someone or some people make it so, through protest or violence or democracy or some other means, etc.

This is the problem.  Democracy when it suits people, violence when that doesn't work out.  That is not really democracy at all.


Here is an extreme case of TDS, with the man allegedly making death threats on this mans children.

Quote
A New York state man was arrested Thursday after he allegedly threatened two House members through a voicemail last month — with one being House Majority Whip Steve Scalise (R-La.)

Carlos Bayon of Grand Island, New York, was charged with interstate communication of a threat, according to a report by WKBW in Buffalo. The 63-year-old reportedly left a threatening message to Scalise on June 30, saying “you are taking ours, we are taking yours. Anytime, anywhere. We know where they are,” according to a transcript from WKBW.

“We are not going to feed them sandwiches, we are going to feed them lead,” he said. Another House member from Washington state also received a similar message.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/08/02/scalise-arrest-voicemail-house-new-york-760593
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: MarkS on August 03, 2018, 08:02:44 AM
I agree with what you said about democracy, no_free_lunch.

Personally, I think that Trump Derangement Syndrome is just a natural extension and evolution of identity politics.  I've posted two of  these cites earlier but they help illustrate my point that the left has been weaponizing discourse to achieve an end - most recently removing a President that they hate.

http://thefederalist.com/2018/08/01/identity-politics-fuel-hate-instead-fighting/

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5385701

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/376394.php
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Gregmal on August 03, 2018, 08:18:28 AM
Yea my biggest chuckles come from those obsessively whining about Trump's character or ethics. In a vacuum, sure. If you are Canadian or from another country and don't vote, sure. But for voting Americans, it s like "OK, you detest Trump for ethical reasons and because of his character. I get". Then I find out these people voted for Hillary Clinton LOL.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on August 03, 2018, 08:24:27 AM
When things change it is because someone or some people make it so, through protest or violence or democracy or some other means, etc.

This is the problem.  Democracy when it suits people, violence when that doesn't work out.  That is not really democracy at all.

The world isn't black and white, and your response is inaccurate on a few fronts:

In general, social change has historically occurred in a variety of means. Sometimes it's violent. Sometimes it isn't.

Sometimes these changes occur through the current "system" - which in the US would be a democracy thereabouts:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/20/us/politics/some-states-beat-supreme-court-to-punch-on-eliminating-gerrymanders.html

Sometimes, like the civil rights movement, it is mostly non-violent but there is still violence in factions.

Sometimes it isn't even the democratic majority doing the oppression - see the American Civil War.

What they have in common is social injustice- usually the folks in power oppressing a powerless minority group - and a response to end that oppression.

My point to Cigarbutt was that the response has to occur for change to happen. It's difficult (for example) to enact women's suffrage if one says, "well, we can't vote now because the current power group isn't allowing it - so let's just keep waiting and maybe a different group will allow it".

Quote
You wrote in pertinent part "...I come away with the notion that monopolies on moral authority (from the Left, the Right, or whatever) are not conducive to reaching common grounds based on mutual respect."
Sometimes common ground is not the goal. Do you consider allowing black people to vote a "monopoly on moral authority"? Do you consider black people, people? Because I'm sure there's some KKK nutjob out there who doesn't and never will. There is no common ground. That person is wrong, and this is my point. Sometimes people are just wrong.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on August 03, 2018, 09:02:02 AM
Donald Trump Jr compared the Democrat party to the Nazi party in the 1930's last night. This was frequently cited as a prime example of TDS by many posters on this board since 2016.

Quote from: Donald Trump Jr.
"You see the Nazi platform from the early 1930s . . . and you look at it compared to the DNC platform of today, you’re saying, ‘Man, those things are awfully similar."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIuogiVy33o&feature=youtu.be&t=2m19s

So this must be an example of TDS too, right? I mean, if we changed DNC to RNC, surely everyone here would agree it's TDS.

Anecdotal "evidence" proves nothing other than a specific act occurred. DJT Jr made a stupid comment. That's it. It doesn't mean that all 75m+ registered Republicans have TDS/ODS or whatever other made up phrase created to get you to watch a specific media outlet there is.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: investor-man on August 03, 2018, 09:32:59 AM

I hear you, but I'm sure there's a link out there on the internet about the healing power expressing yourself on and quaint little internet forum. It's been a very frustrating time to be an American.

Yea, real frustrating... Booming stock market. Lower taxes. Lowest level of unemployment in ages, healthy economy. As much as I didn't care for Obama, the aforementioned things(minus lower taxes) were true under him as well and my life was pretty good. So the bitch about the President stuff is fun, so is the debates about it, but the majority of people control their own destiny and the President shouldnt really be an excuse for one's own issues.

We see eye-to-eye on the on-going business cycles - you can't really give credit to any one president for where we are in the cycle. Where we don't agree is your take on corruption. You've stated many times in previous posts that this is just "how things work". I disagree. Rule of Law is incredibly important to Capitalism. Without it we'll end up a kleptocracy. That is the direction I believe Trump is taking us, and I don't like watching it.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cardboard on August 03, 2018, 10:04:12 AM
When I see socialist, anti-capitalist, anti-freedom Democrats such as Elizabeth Warren, then Donald Trump Jr is bang on.

Seize money from some to give it to others in the name of solving inequality... This has never worked throughout history. All this leads to is poverty and a few corrupt in the regime to enrich themselves. Oppose them and you will suffer.

Cardboard
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on August 03, 2018, 10:25:50 AM
We see eye-to-eye on the on-going business cycles - you can't really give credit to any one president for where we are in the cycle. Where we don't agree is your take on corruption. You've stated many times in previous posts that this is just "how things work". I disagree. Rule of Law is incredibly important to Capitalism. Without it we'll end up a kleptocracy. That is the direction I believe Trump is taking us, and I don't like watching it.

I would say that capitalism is compatible with the Rule of Law. But what is the Rule of Law?
https://theconversation.com/trump-may-believe-in-the-rule-of-law-just-not-the-one-understood-by-most-american-lawyers-97757

Let's invert. How would one go about moving towards an authoritarian and concentrated state? I would say that one would focus on redefining the Rule of Law (to his advantage). There is an unusual attempt at disruption of the present definition which is balanced and I don't like watching it.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: investor-man on August 03, 2018, 11:08:12 AM
When I see socialist, anti-capitalist, anti-freedom Democrats such as Elizabeth Warren, then Donald Trump Jr is bang on.

Seize money from some to give it to others in the name of solving inequality... This has never worked throughout history. All this leads to is poverty and a few corrupt in the regime to enrich themselves. Oppose them and you will suffer.

Cardboard

I don't know what DT Jr. Said but I agree that the rhetoric from Elizabeth Warren is often disconcerting and thoughtless. She is not someone I'd ever support politically from what I know of her
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: kevin4u2 on August 03, 2018, 11:43:43 AM
This is what DJT Jr is getting at regarding the comparison.  It's from the movie. 
Here:
https://youtu.be/MPuW2et0m4M (https://youtu.be/MPuW2et0m4M)
and Here:
https://youtu.be/CNsdmvijLfs (https://youtu.be/CNsdmvijLfs)

Donald Trump Jr compared the Democrat party to the Nazi party in the 1930's last night. This was frequently cited as a prime example of TDS by many posters on this board since 2016.

Quote from: Donald Trump Jr.
"You see the Nazi platform from the early 1930s . . . and you look at it compared to the DNC platform of today, you’re saying, ‘Man, those things are awfully similar."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIuogiVy33o&feature=youtu.be&t=2m19s

So this must be an example of TDS too, right? I mean, if we changed DNC to RNC, surely everyone here would agree it's TDS.

Anecdotal "evidence" proves nothing other than a specific act occurred. DJT Jr made a stupid comment. That's it. It doesn't mean that all 75m+ registered Republicans have TDS/ODS or whatever other made up phrase created to get you to watch a specific media outlet there is.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Spekulatius on August 03, 2018, 12:01:25 PM
I think the parallels between the Nazis and Trumpism are way stronger than those between any socialists and the Nazis. While it is true that the NSDAP had socialism in their name, that was about it and they never did anything to affront the rich industrial elite( which was very suspicious of them first, but generally complicit later.

Just Note that Anerica first is almost the same idea than Deutschland Deutschland über alles! And then there concentration camps as well as denigrating illegal immigrants with words like „ Infestation“, „animals“. I hope that the rhyme of history ends here.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: given2invest on August 03, 2018, 12:15:00 PM
Yes, it's rich that the Trumps think it's the Dems who are most at risk into turning America into a Nazi Germany clone.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on August 03, 2018, 03:05:00 PM
The instances of TDS continue.

to fight an injustice

I think the parallels between the Nazis and Trumpism are way stronger than those between any socialists and the Nazis. 

These are perceived "problems" because they're filtered through an unhinged imagination, i.e., these are hallucinations.

Imagine what a reader would think if he read some examples these writers have.  So far there are none.  Thus, hallucinations.
(Just wait until you see their examples!)
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: no_free_lunch on August 03, 2018, 03:36:36 PM

I would say that capitalism is compatible with the Rule of Law. But what is the Rule of Law?
https://theconversation.com/trump-may-believe-in-the-rule-of-law-just-not-the-one-understood-by-most-american-lawyers-97757

Let's invert. How would one go about moving towards an authoritarian and concentrated state? I would say that one would focus on redefining the Rule of Law (to his advantage). There is an unusual attempt at disruption of the present definition which is balanced and I don't like watching it.


I feel this is looking at things with a custom lens.  I see laws as nothing more than those in power pushing their will.  It has always been this way.  I see it frequently on the left but perhaps I just ignore when conservatives do it.  Obama went to war in Libya without congress, police in Oregon refuse to assist ICE members when they are physically attacked, stand-down orders in multiple cities when antifa attack protestors, I have heard cities or states are trying to provide illegal aliens with the right to vote.   I think it's laughable to blame Trump specifically for this type of abuse.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on August 03, 2018, 04:07:02 PM


These are perceived "problems" because they're filtered through an unhinged imagination, i.e., these are hallucinations.

Imagine what a reader would think if he read some examples these writers have.  So far there are none.  Thus, hallucinations.
(Just wait until you see their examples!)

There are various threads in this exact sub forum discussing the treatment of minority groups in America by the government and society in general. Funny how you think it's all imaginary. Has the Thorazine worn off already? Your tolerance must be increasing.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on August 03, 2018, 04:13:34 PM
There are various threads in this exact sub forum discussing the treatment of minority groups in America by the government and society in general. Funny how you think it's all imaginary. Has the Thorazine worn off already? Your tolerance must be increasing.

Those have been adequately addressed.  You've convinced nobody except those in your bubble!  "Arguments" riddled with fallacies, which you haven't corrected, are not convincing!
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on August 03, 2018, 04:33:49 PM
I feel this is looking at things with a custom lens.  I see laws as nothing more than those in power pushing their will.  It has always been this way.  I see it frequently on the left but perhaps I just ignore when conservatives do it.  Obama went to war in Libya without congress, police in Oregon refuse to assist ICE members when they are physically attacked, stand-down orders in multiple cities when antifa attack protestors, I have heard cities or states are trying to provide illegal aliens with the right to vote.   I think it's laughable to blame Trump specifically for this type of abuse.
I think I see your point.

But I was referring to the balance of powers (legislative, executive and judicial). The balance evolves over time, the separation is not absolute and individuals or groups have tried to take advantage but there are checks and balance. And, on a relative basis, it works.

Maybe there is an element of TDS and partly related to a rash (and irresponsible?) predisposition but I find that Mr. Trump has taken the institutional disrespect too far, to the point that this is not simply a "genuine political disagreement" (from the reference): "A leader like Trump, whose tweets denigrate the neutrality of American judges, who refuses to submit to the same expectations of his peers or other citizens, who appears to interfere with an important legal inquiry, and who argues that he has an absolute right to pardon himself…" and who suggested that he may not recognize the result of a democratic election...

Excessive concentration of power is best prevented in the early stages even IMO if it means unnecessary anxiety in some instances.

As pre-emptive strike to cobafdek: isn't amazing that we can learn from a guy (Alan Dershowitz) who has been labeled as a libertarian, deep supporter of the Democratic Party and feverish defender of Mr. Trump on certain topics?

Diversity of opinions and independent thinking does not mean bland compromises.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: investor-man on August 03, 2018, 05:02:48 PM
+1
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Gregmal on August 03, 2018, 05:15:47 PM
I feel this is looking at things with a custom lens.  I see laws as nothing more than those in power pushing their will.  It has always been this way.  I see it frequently on the left but perhaps I just ignore when conservatives do it.  Obama went to war in Libya without congress, police in Oregon refuse to assist ICE members when they are physically attacked, stand-down orders in multiple cities when antifa attack protestors, I have heard cities or states are trying to provide illegal aliens with the right to vote.   I think it's laughable to blame Trump specifically for this type of abuse.
I think I see your point.

But I was referring to the balance of powers (legislative, executive and judicial). The balance evolves over time, the separation is not absolute and individuals or groups have tried to take advantage but there are checks and balance. And, on a relative basis, it works.

Maybe there is an element of TDS and partly related to a rash (and irresponsible?) predisposition but I find that Mr. Trump has taken the institutional disrespect too far, to the point that this is not simply a "genuine political disagreement" (from the reference): "A leader like Trump, whose tweets denigrate the neutrality of American judges, who refuses to submit to the same expectations of his peers or other citizens, who appears to interfere with an important legal inquiry, and who argues that he has an absolute right to pardon himself…" and who suggested that he may not recognize the result of a democratic election...

Excessive concentration of power is best prevented in the early stages even IMO if it means unnecessary anxiety in some instances.

As pre-emptive strike to cobafdek: isn't amazing that we can learn from a guy (Alan Dershowitz) who has been labeled as a libertarian, deep supporter of the Democratic Party and feverish defender of Mr. Trump on certain topics?

Diversity of opinions and independent thinking does not mean bland compromises.

Speaking of the bolded, don't we currently have some sort of special investigation going on spearheaded by people who can't seem to accept the election results?

Cigarbutt you are always very well reasoned and make good points here again. I largely agree with you. I just think there is a certain sort of derangement here. Just like with not accepting the election results, its hypocritical. All the outrage supposedly over Trumps lack of moral compass and perceived corruption; from people who voted for Hillary Clinton... That says it all. You can't be anti-corruption and play the moral higher-ground card and support Clinton. Total hypocritical nonsense. It's like claiming your are a PETA supporter and wearing a Mink coat to Sparks... We all know the real issue the libs have with Trump, they just wont admit it and it's easier to play the "easy cards" in the deck like "he's corrupt"...
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on August 03, 2018, 07:40:26 PM
Mr. Trump has taken the institutional disrespect too far, to the point that this is not simply a "genuine political disagreement" (from the reference): "A leader like Trump, whose tweets denigrate the neutrality of American judges, who refuses to submit to the same expectations of his peers or other citizens, who appears to interfere with an important legal inquiry, and who argues that he has an absolute right to pardon himself…" and who suggested that he may not recognize the result of a democratic election...

Social media and the associated technological change is driving much (most?) of TDS, hijacking brains at all levels of intelligence.  Just witness the initial responses at the beginning of this thread on November 1, 2017.

But social media has also increased the democratization of society.  Ultimately, the people, via social media, are Trump's bosses, and he recognizes that.  That's why if he makes a mistake (when he first said, during the campaign, that women should go to jail for having an abortion, then saw the reaction and reversed himself the next day and said it should be the doctors who should be jailed), he corrects very quickly.  More recently, he reversed course after the swift outcry about separating migrant children from their parents. 

His use of media, both traditional and modern social media, is a lot like floating trial balloons and communicating with his base and beyond.  If he senses he's wrong, he doesn't push further but rather he adjusts.  If the initial travel ban had flaws, he submits to the courts and revises it, as he did twice. 

Controversial Trump agenda items like Supreme Court picks, the Wall, border security, tariffs, military parade, foreign relations, etc., will be insisted upon if he senses, through the media, that there is enough popular, i.e., democratic, support.

None of this is remotely dictator-like, yet those afflicted with TDS act as if all these are right out of Mein Kampf.  The Weimar Republic and Auschwitz analogies are truly bizarre and psychotic.

Because the ultimate boss is the people, and Trump knows he is merely their employee, his style, behavior, and policies are exactly what the people, speaking through the media, want to see.  They will continue to support him as long as results are good, as they have been.  The MSM doesn't understand that when they go after Trump, they are going after the people.

The branch of government that really suffers in this modern media society is the legislature.  It feels like they are outmoded and useless, can't get anything of importance done with any efficiency.  The legislative branch seems to be a mere rubber stamp formality, and current Congressional procedures seem anachronistic in this modern age.  The important stuff gets done with the people directly in communication with their President, and a no-nonsense businessman/media-figure is ideal for the times.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on August 03, 2018, 08:34:52 PM
Social media and the associated technological change is driving much (most?) of TDS, hijacking brains at all levels of intelligence.  Just witness the initial responses at the beginning of this thread on November 1, 2017.

But social media has also increased the democratization of society.  Ultimately, the people, via social media, are Trump's bosses, and he recognizes that.  That's why if he makes a mistake (when he first said, during the campaign, that women should go to jail for having an abortion, then saw the reaction and reversed himself the next day and said it should be the doctors who should be jailed), he corrects very quickly.  More recently, he reversed course after the swift outcry about separating migrant children from their parents. 

His use of media, both traditional and modern social media, is a lot like floating trial balloons and communicating with his base and beyond.  If he senses he's wrong, he doesn't push further but rather he adjusts.  If the initial travel ban had flaws, he submits to the courts and revises it, as he did twice. 

Controversial Trump agenda items like Supreme Court picks, the Wall, border security, tariffs, military parade, foreign relations, etc., will be insisted upon if he senses, through the media, that there is enough popular, i.e., democratic, support.

None of this is remotely dictator-like, yet those afflicted with TDS act as if all these are right out of Mein Kampf.  The Weimar Republic and Auschwitz analogies are truly bizarre and psychotic.

Because the ultimate boss is the people, and Trump knows he is merely their employee, his style, behavior, and policies are exactly what the people, speaking through the media, want to see.  They will continue to support him as long as results are good, as they have been.  The MSM doesn't understand that when they go after Trump, they are going after the people.

The branch of government that really suffers in this modern media society is the legislature.  It feels like they are outmoded and useless, can't get anything of importance done with any efficiency.  The legislative branch seems to be a mere rubber stamp formality, and current Congressional procedures seem anachronistic in this modern age.  The important stuff gets done with the people directly in communication with their President, and a no-nonsense businessman/media-figure is ideal for the times.

Helpful perspective.
You describe well some positive aspects of populism. And politics, by definition, is populist, to varying degrees.

We clearly need to look beyond Mr. Trump as there is definitely an underlying movement.
I wonder what really drives the movement, worry that the message may be distorted and suspect that certain motives may not appeal to the better angels of our nature.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: MarkS on August 04, 2018, 06:13:02 AM
Cigarbutt,

You posted:

"Mr. Trump has taken the institutional disrespect too far, to the point that this is not simply a "genuine political disagreement" (from the reference): "A leader like Trump, whose tweets denigrate the neutrality of American judges, who refuses to submit to the same expectations of his peers or other citizens, who appears to interfere with an important legal inquiry, and who argues that he has an absolute right to pardon himself…" and who suggested that he may not recognize the result of a democratic election... "

It is obvious from your posts that you care deeply about many ideals that we should strive towards.  I understand and sympathize.
I would also agree that most Americans would also support many of these ideals.  However they aren't blind to day to day reality.

With respect to the neutrality of American judges - why is it that Republicans and Democrats desperately want to appoint their guys?  Why do lawyers constantly forum shop to find sympathetic judges?  State judges tend to have to run for office every few years, which means raising money for campaigns.  The large donors in these races are lawyers.  Do you honestly believe that these lawyers shower money on judges without expectations?

With respect to Trump arguing that can pardon himself - forgive me but I'm also going to address "no man is above the law" -  first many people have certain legal advantages that most of us don't . See:

https://www.quora.com/Are-there-any-people-above-the-law-in-the-US

Since the President is the person in charge of bringing charges against criminals as ultimate head of the DOJ and FBI he would ironically be the person who would have to okay his own prosecution.
https://medium.com/@johnbrandes/is-the-us-president-above-the-law-5ccaadc5015f
Also because he is charged with the heavy burden of protecting the American people many argue that while he is office he cannot be distracted from his job by any criminal prosecution.
 
Actually Trump probably does have the right to pardon himself.  See:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-trump-impeachment-prosecution-jail-20170801-story.html

I hate discussing ideals.  I've always found it more interesting to discuss the devil the details.


Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rukawa on August 04, 2018, 08:32:04 AM
I think the parallels between the Nazis and Trumpism are way stronger than those between any socialists and the Nazis. While it is true that the NSDAP had socialism in their name, that was about it and they never did anything to affront the rich industrial elite( which was very suspicious of them first, but generally complicit later.

Just Note that Anerica first is almost the same idea than Deutschland Deutschland über alles! And then there concentration camps as well as denigrating illegal immigrants with words like „ Infestation“, „animals“. I hope that the rhyme of history ends here.

Anybody who wants to use the power of government to further their agenda is inevitably going to have a lot in common with the Nazi party since that is what they wanted to do.

European liberalism == limited government, free markets

Everything that replaced European liberalism basically involves large government and a lot of direct interference in the running of the economy and that includes social democracy, communism and fascism. All three movements are much more in common with each other than is often acknowledged and their histories also are tied together. Their policies are also similar in many respects:
https://aeon.co/ideas/fascism-was-a-right-wing-anti-capitalist-movement (https://aeon.co/ideas/fascism-was-a-right-wing-anti-capitalist-movement)

So maybe the better things to say is that Trump, socialists and fascists all have a lot in common and its apt to compare all 3 to each other.

The opposite is Classical Liberalism == free markets, free trade, limited government, free movement. That is basically unpopular today even though it was responsible for:

1) Ending slavery
2) Dramatically increasing living standards
3) Drastically reducing poverty
4) Enormously improving health
5) Enormous progress in science
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: doughishere on August 07, 2018, 11:11:23 AM
https://www.tampabay.com/florida-politics/buzz/2018/07/31/trump-said-people-watched-his-rally-on-tvs-outside-the-fairgrounds-they-didnt/

Trump said people watched his rally on TVs outside the Fairgrounds. They didn’t.
There were no massive TV screens and no JumboTrons outside of the Trump rally in Tampa.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rkbabang on August 07, 2018, 11:33:32 AM
https://www.tampabay.com/florida-politics/buzz/2018/07/31/trump-said-people-watched-his-rally-on-tvs-outside-the-fairgrounds-they-didnt/

Trump said people watched his rally on TVs outside the Fairgrounds. They didn’t.
There were no massive TV screens and no JumboTrons outside of the Trump rally in Tampa.

OMFG!!!!!! Impeach this monster!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

The last 3 presidents have slaughtered tens of thousands of people with drones and your big issue is that he said people were watching tv and they weren't?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: doughishere on August 08, 2018, 05:38:08 PM
https://twitter.com/ryanbeckwith/status/1027284940424208384

People Trump accused of secretly taping him:
• Barack Obama
• James Comey

People who actually secretly taped Trump:
• Michael Cohen
• Omarosa Manigault
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Spekulatius on August 08, 2018, 06:23:31 PM
https://twitter.com/ryanbeckwith/status/1027284940424208384

People Trump accused of secretly taping him:
• Barack Obama
• James Comey

People who actually secretly taped Trump:
• Michael Cohen
• Omarosa Manigault

With such friends, who needs enemies?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: doughishere on August 09, 2018, 03:12:29 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/06/politics/kfile-mike-pence-moral-columns/index.html

Vice President Mike Pence once argued the president of the United States should be held to the highest moral standards to determine whether he should resign or be removed from office.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Spekulatius on August 09, 2018, 05:21:53 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/06/politics/kfile-mike-pence-moral-columns/index.html

Vice President Mike Pence once argued the president of the United States should be held to the highest moral standards to determine whether he should resign or be removed from office.

Just imagine now that Trump would be accused of having an affair with an intern at the White House? Would anyone care? He would probably brag about it on Twitter. Maybe we are once for all done with that kind of morality BS in the US.

François Mitterand took his mistress on official receptions in the 80‘s and I don’t think the French gave a damn about it.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on August 25, 2018, 07:52:00 AM
"This is insane!," exploded Prof. Munger to me.  "When my students display Trump Derangement Syndrome, it makes me look like a bad teacher."  http://www.cornerofberkshireandfairfax.ca/forum/general-discussion/narcissistic-personality-disorder/

most people don't do research on forums and read long New Yorker profiles or whatever. They just think "he's a billionaire, so he must be a good businessman, right, and he constantly talks about all his successes, and most people aren't liars, so it's probably true that he's that smart and successful".

This is as pure an example of mind-reading as you'll ever see, and therefore pure BS.  And therefore TDS.
 https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/877505138474221568?lang=en

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/201609/meet-the-real-narcissists-theyre-not-what-you-think

"True pathological narcissism has always been rare and remains so: It affects an estimated 1 percent of the population."
"The disorder can be diagnosed only by a mental health professional and is suspected when a person's narcissistic traits impair his or her daily functioning."

The second quote is a key component of the diagnosis, which is one obvious reason why the diagnosis does not apply to Very Stable Genius DJT.

The best physicians and clinicians understand that things like "depression," "anxiety," "narcissistic personality" do not exist, strictly speaking.  What does exist is a cluster of symptoms and signs unique to each patient, and then we place a label on it for communication and treatment purposes.  It is not meant for amateurs to throw around in casual conversation, resulting in further harmful social interactions.  DSM-V terminology are not "things."  They are mere shorthand labels whose function is to help suffering clients compassionately.

Ordinary mediocre clinicians and therapists use those labels as if those diagnoses really exist, and they implicitly encourage patients to label themselves such.  This practice is ineffective.  They are treating labels, not patients.  That's a major reason why so many health professionals are ineffective.

The worst physicians diagnose from afar, breaching professional ethics, and write books like http://www.cornerofberkshireandfairfax.ca/forum/books/the-dangerous-case-of-donald-trump-27-psychiatrists/

Laymen who use the terminology have http://blog.dilbert.com/2015/10/10/narcissistic-accuser-syndrome/
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on August 25, 2018, 08:01:39 AM
Why is it that Warren, Charlie, Prem, Mohnish, etc., never sound unhinged or intemperate publicly?, like the following:

No one is saying that Bush, Obama or Clinton were perfect or great...but let's not bullshit ourselves about Trump either.  The hypocrisy of evangelicals supporting him alone is mind-blowing! 

And getting back to the title subject...supporters and the Trump team were saying that he wasn't lying on almost every personal matter that he denied.
 Now you have two very close Trump cohorts going to jail...white collar criminals yes...but criminals nonetheless.  And in Manafort's case, the size of the fraud and tax evasion was enormous!  This is not a good guy, or brave guy as the President touts, but a f**king crook that he employed and was very close to.  So, let's not discount the whole Russian Collusion thing until this is all over.  It's been nothing but lies, hypocrisy and bullshit for 18 months!
 Cheers!

Why do they never jump on MSM click-bait and go on wild speculations?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/allen-weisselberg-longtime-trump-organization-cfo-is-granted-immunity-by-federal-prosecutors-in-michael-cohen-investigation-1535121992

"Allen Weisselberg, Longtime Trump Organization CFO, Is Granted Immunity in Cohen Probe"

Quote
Allen Weisselberg, President Trump’s longtime financial gatekeeper, was granted immunity by federal prosecutors for providing information about Michael Cohen in the criminal investigation into hush-money payments for two women during the 2016 presidential campaign, according to people familiar with the matter.

Mr. Weisselberg was called to testify before a federal grand jury in the investigation earlier this year, The Wall Street Journal previously reported, citing people familiar with the investigation.

The hits just keep coming..

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-07-25/new-cohen-recording-surfaces-a-bigger-catch

Cant wait for the taxes and the Trump business stuff to come out. I would think it would be of special interest on these boards.

At least we'll finally get to see them!  I love the quote:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/24/politics/allen-weisselberg-immunity-cohen-investigation/index.html

"Allen knows where all the financial bodies are buried. Allen knows every deal, he knows every dealership, he knows every sale, anything and everything that's been done -- he knows every membership. Anything you can think of," said the person, who was not making any specific allegations about the Trump Organization's finances."

At the end of the day, this is nothing but a fake news witch hunt.  Poor Trump may end up wearing the scarlet letters "ADX".  Cheers!

Maybe they're not afflicted by Trump Derangement Syndrome.  Hell, even Sardar is circumspect!

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on August 25, 2018, 09:07:57 AM
Hi cobafdek,
This post is an intentional attempt at changing the direction of the conversation.

In the last two posts, you include:

1st post: "This is insane!," exploded Prof. Munger to me.  "When my students display Trump Derangement Syndrome, it makes me look like a bad teacher."

2nd post: "Why is it that Warren, Charlie, Prem, Mohnish, etc., never sound unhinged or intemperate publicly?"

Just want to say that including two contradictory statements in two consecutive posts will tend to weaken your argument.


Keeping in mind your advice of sticking with personality traits and staying away from diagnoses, I find (this seems to be accepted across the spectrum) that Presisent Trump frequently asserts one statement only to characteristically express the complete opposite, sometimes in the same setting. According to your evaluation, is this a sign of a very high level of stable mental abilities or is it simply a form of mental incoherence?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on August 25, 2018, 05:28:16 PM
Hi cobafdek,
This post is an intentional attempt at changing the direction of the conversation.

In the last two posts, you include:

1st post: "This is insane!," exploded Prof. Munger to me.  "When my students display Trump Derangement Syndrome, it makes me look like a bad teacher."

2nd post: "Why is it that Warren, Charlie, Prem, Mohnish, etc., never sound unhinged or intemperate publicly?"

Just want to say that including two contradictory statements in two consecutive posts will tend to weaken your argument.


Keeping in mind your advice of sticking with personality traits and staying away from diagnoses, I find (this seems to be accepted across the spectrum) that Presisent Trump frequently asserts one statement only to characteristically express the complete opposite, sometimes in the same setting. According to your evaluation, is this a sign of a very high level of stable mental abilities or is it simply a form of mental incoherence?

Nah, no contradiction at all
 
Like all of us, your ratio of consuming fake news to real may have gone up unawares, so beware of unconsciously adopting their simplistic literal-mindedness for cheap "gotcha" purposes!

I assumed most of us here have witnessed Munger in person at WSCO or DJCO annual meetings, as I have many times.  When he "explodes" apoplectically and calls something "insane" (one of his favorite put-downs),  he still looks subdued.  I (and maybe you also) would look more obviously conventionally crazy and unhinged.

Trump-speak is intentional and shows a high level of intuitive understanding of the psychology of influence and persuasion.  Ask George Lakoff, staunch anti-Trumper.  He's been saying this for about 3 years now.  I've seen him on MSNBC and CNN several times making his case.  The MSM will continue to be hilariously trolled by the Master Troll.  Seems like no one listens to Lakoff.  That's good for Trump.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on August 25, 2018, 08:48:34 PM
Nah, no contradiction at all
 
Like all of us, your ratio of consuming fake news to real may have gone up unawares, so beware of unconsciously adopting their simplistic literal-mindedness for cheap "gotcha" purposes!

I assumed most of us here have witnessed Munger in person at WSCO or DJCO annual meetings, as I have many times.  When he "explodes" apoplectically and calls something "insane" (one of his favorite put-downs),  he still looks subdued.  I (and maybe you also) would look more obviously conventionally crazy and unhinged.

Trump-speak is intentional and shows a high level of intuitive understanding of the psychology of influence and persuasion.  Ask George Lakoff, staunch anti-Trumper.  He's been saying this for about 3 years now.  I've seen him on MSNBC and CNN several times making his case.  The MSM will continue to be hilariously trolled by the Master Troll.  Seems like no one listens to Lakoff.  That's good for Trump.

I've never seen Mr. Munger in person but have watched him on video and actually agree with your assessment of his muted "outbursts".

Looked into George Lakoff whom I did not know.

Speaking of fake news, I recently scored poorly on a "test". Maybe you want to try it.
http://factitious.augamestudio.com/#/

Speaking of contradictions, in the spirit of learning and making sure that this does not become an insulting contest, can you explain to me how you reconcile criticism of people applying clinical labels from afar for elected officials while at the same time using a similar strategy to label participants on this Board with the TDS?

Does one need empathy to be good at intuition? I always thought that intuition was mostly an internal process.
I guess the forgotten man unconsciously wants to know.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: MarkS on August 26, 2018, 06:34:39 AM
In all fairness Cigarbutt,  cobafdek isn't holding himself as an expert on mental health.  That's really the difference.

Although I agree that overall we can all behave better on this forum - myself included.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on August 26, 2018, 07:43:23 AM
Yeah, the idea is to keep the conversation alive and constructive even if the stakes are high.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/the-news-in-cartoons/ss-AAylz6W#image=4
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: MarkS on August 26, 2018, 08:55:03 AM
I agree that the stakes are high - but probably for a different reason.  We were given the choice between two very flawed canidates for President. Both candidates came to the election with lots of bagage. We were forced to choose and made our decision.  From the very first week of his presidency he has been under attack from the left and the MSM.  Even the name "resistance" is  a military term with an historical reference to the French resistance battling the Nazis. The investigation started out as an inquiry about alleged Russian influence.  But it has become clear the left and MSM would happily except any reason to impeach Trump. This investigation has become  a search for an impeachable offense.  This Is in stark contrast to having evidence of  a crime an investigating who committed it.  It seems to me that our democratic process is being undermined from within and not from afar.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on August 26, 2018, 09:24:12 AM
Speaking of contradictions, in the spirit of learning and making sure that this does not become an insulting contest, can you explain to me how you reconcile criticism of people applying clinical labels from afar for elected officials while at the same time using a similar strategy to label participants on this Board with the TDS?

Keep in mind that analogies are not rational arguments, or at best the weakest form of logic.  Clinical terms from the DSM-V are intended to help people.  Mock clinical terms (TDS) are not only not in the DSM-V, but they are intended to "harm," i.e., mock.  Mocking is humor; humor is risky; and one of the funniest and ironic things about deploying the TDS term on targets is that the target's reaction confirms whether he has a sense of humor (in which case his TDS begins to weaken), or whether he feels insulted (in which case the diagnosis of TDS is more strongly confirmed!)  It is both fascinating and hilarious to see rational and witty CoBF members easily triggered into irrational and offended.  (But I'm sure they can take it!)

Does one need empathy to be good at intuition? I always thought that intuition was mostly an internal process.
I guess the forgotten man unconsciously wants to know.

Yeah, my inexpert understanding is that intuition is inwardly directed, and empathy is outwardly directed, so that's one simpleminded way of seeing the difference.  I'll defer to the Briggs-Myers experts for more insight.  Suffice it to say that Trump's charisma is a combination of his empathy for the blue collar folks and his powerful personality.



Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on August 26, 2018, 09:25:15 AM
The democratic process is being absolutely undermined by the left. We have a President duly elected. He breaks a lot of glass and is a fighter, not PC at all. He  loves America and is anti-stupidity and all about common sense. The left absolutely hates him and looks
extremely foolish - as they oppose ANYTHING good that he has done.

Most of all, he operates at lightening speed - and attacks when attacked by partisans. Even many Republicans have issues with this. But above all, he believes in action NOT talk - and getting important stuff done.  He is a HUGE threat to the
Washington swamp of special interest & lobbyists. We have never seen anything like Trump as President.

Middle America was outraged at the lack of concern over jobs and foolish immigration policies, when you have an administration who felt that issues of transgender bathrooms and identity politics were more important, as they were total elitists.

Obama and Hillary had their chance, lost touch, and got the boot. The propaganda media, of course, just can't stand it and will never learn.
This is a President that goes around the propaganda media, directly to the American people. He does not need or respect them.

Like corporate America, if you have a CEO that accomplishes nothing in 2 years - you can his ass. Obama had 8, Hillary ran on a platform of "I am Obama, but I am a woman".  The American people said we are tired of all the talk...time for some action. We just don't trust you politicians anymore. We elected Trump to kick some ass - and they just hate it.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on August 26, 2018, 09:39:20 AM
He is a HUGE threat to the Washington swamp of special interest & lobbyists.

His campaign manager was indicted for being an undeclared lobbyist for Ukraine and his National Security Advisor will be indicted for being an undeclared lobbyist for Turkey.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: MarkS on August 26, 2018, 09:55:11 AM
Schwab

Your outrage appears highly selective.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/01/russia-probe-lobbying-podesta-mercury-380579
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on August 26, 2018, 09:56:45 AM
He is a HUGE threat to the Washington swamp of special interest & lobbyists.

His campaign manager was indicted for being an undeclared lobbyist for Ukraine and his National Security Advisor will be indicted for being an undeclared lobbyist for Turkey.

And the FBI, DOJ, CIA, IRS, NSA - became corrupt under Obama and the Clinton crime syndicate.
IRS director resigns in disgrace after taking the 5th multiple times and targeting only political opponents.
Brennan and Clapper caught lying multiple times to Congress. McCabe, Comey, Yates resign in fired/resign in disgrace - hope they have good lawyers.
Loretta Lynch caught fixing Hillary Clinton destruction of evidence, with "chance" meeting on the tarmac with Bill Clinton
 - 6 days later -  investigation ended - how convenient!
NSA weaponized against Trump and Obama's political enemies...

President Obama took corruption to a whole new level and institutionalized it.

Obama/Clinton make Trump look like a total piker in regards to corruption.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on August 26, 2018, 01:31:02 PM
Schwab

Your outrage appears highly selective.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/01/russia-probe-lobbying-podesta-mercury-380579

I shouldn't have to write about every wrong in the world to point out when something is wrong. You aren't held to those standards. What cubsfan wrote is still wrong.

I'd also be happy to see any FARA violators punished. I've written that I expect D's to be the target of some investigations right now and to be indicted before this is all done. Not the ones Trump writes about but some D's. I don't know why you think I'd stick up for Tony Podesta or any Democrat if they're breaking the law.


He is a HUGE threat to the Washington swamp of special interest & lobbyists.

His campaign manager was indicted for being an undeclared lobbyist for Ukraine and his National Security Advisor will be indicted for being an undeclared lobbyist for Turkey.

And the FBI, DOJ, CIA, IRS, NSA - became corrupt under Obama and the Clinton crime syndicate.
IRS director resigns in disgrace after taking the 5th multiple times and targeting only political opponents.
Brennan and Clapper caught lying multiple times to Congress. McCabe, Comey, Yates resign in fired/resign in disgrace - hope they have good lawyers.
Loretta Lynch caught fixing Hillary Clinton destruction of evidence, with "chance" meeting on the tarmac with Bill Clinton
 - 6 days later -  investigation ended - how convenient!
NSA weaponized against Trump and Obama's political enemies...

President Obama took corruption to a whole new level and institutionalized it.

Obama/Clinton make Trump look like a total piker in regards to corruption.

This has nothing to do with what I wrote. Why is it so difficult to directly address the issues surrounding Trump? We have or are investigating all of the topics you posted. Nothing came from it because those in charge didn't find it prudent. That includes all Trump appointees for the last 2 years. The statute of limitations has not elapsed.

To add, Trump personally interviewed the AUSA in SDNY that is investigating his personal lawyer and his business. 4 of Trump's cabinet members have been accused of abusing their power. 2 have resigned for it. Numerous individuals at lower positions than Trump's direct cabinet have resigned due to abusing their powers. We have investigated all the Clinton allegations. Why can't you admit that there is a legitimate concern to be had regarding Trump? You don't have to believe it just yet, but a reasonable person could. Why is that so hard to concede?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Gregmal on August 26, 2018, 02:00:36 PM
Schwab

Your outrage appears highly selective.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/01/russia-probe-lobbying-podesta-mercury-380579

I shouldn't have to write about every wrong in the world to point out when something is wrong. You aren't held to those standards. What cubsfan wrote is still wrong.

I'd also be happy to see any FARA violators punished. I've written that I expect D's to be the target of some investigations right now and to be indicted before this is all done. Not the ones Trump writes about but some D's. I don't know why you think I'd stick up for Tony Podesta or any Democrat if they're breaking the law.


He is a HUGE threat to the Washington swamp of special interest & lobbyists.

His campaign manager was indicted for being an undeclared lobbyist for Ukraine and his National Security Advisor will be indicted for being an undeclared lobbyist for Turkey.

And the FBI, DOJ, CIA, IRS, NSA - became corrupt under Obama and the Clinton crime syndicate.
IRS director resigns in disgrace after taking the 5th multiple times and targeting only political opponents.
Brennan and Clapper caught lying multiple times to Congress. McCabe, Comey, Yates resign in fired/resign in disgrace - hope they have good lawyers.
Loretta Lynch caught fixing Hillary Clinton destruction of evidence, with "chance" meeting on the tarmac with Bill Clinton
 - 6 days later -  investigation ended - how convenient!
NSA weaponized against Trump and Obama's political enemies...

President Obama took corruption to a whole new level and institutionalized it.

Obama/Clinton make Trump look like a total piker in regards to corruption.

This has nothing to do with what I wrote. Why is it so difficult to directly address the issues surrounding Trump? We have or are investigating all of the topics you posted. Nothing came from it because those in charge didn't find it prudent. That includes all Trump appointees for the last 2 years. The statute of limitations has not elapsed.

To add, Trump personally interviewed the AUSA in SDNY that is investigating his personal lawyer and his business. 4 of Trump's cabinet members have been accused of abusing their power. 2 have resigned for it. Numerous individuals at lower positions than Trump's direct cabinet have resigned due to abusing their powers. We have investigated all the Clinton allegations. Why can't you admit that there is a legitimate concern to be had regarding Trump? You don't have to believe it just yet, but a reasonable person could. Why is that so hard to concede?

Because you can't whine about Trump if you aren't willing to whine about all the other obvious nonsense. In many cases the same exact shit that applies to Trump applies to the people the Trump Haters support. You can't pretend to be this moral crusader but then conveniently only find Trump related issues to cry about.

Well, you can't do it and be taken seriously. Thats what MSM still doesn't get. Like I've said, you can't whine about Trump being corrupt and morally void if you voted for Clinton. Unless you're willing to preface your messages with the statement "I am a giant hypocrite". As I've personally said, I accept politicians as a whole are massively corrupt(I don't like it, but this aint changing any time soon), so I can live with it. But you can't go play the "OMG Trump's so evil" card if you endorsed someone just as bad. The issue is really just that people are bitter and still can't get over Hillary losing.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on August 26, 2018, 02:34:46 PM
Who are you writing to?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on August 26, 2018, 03:01:38 PM
Yup - Gregmal stated the case perfectly. Clinton/Obama corruption issues are far more pervasive and deep than anything Trump is involved with. Stop being a hypocrite. The DC swamp has a vested interest in not shining the light on the past. Conveniently, all the bodies were going to be easily buried with Hillary election. Trump is kicking over the table in DC and the swamp and media hate it. You've investigated nothing.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: MarkS on August 26, 2018, 03:12:26 PM
Schwab

My point was that Podesta, a longtime Clinton operative, worked with Manafort's firm to help the Ukrainians.  Both sides had people working with the Ukrainians not just Trump.  https://amp.businessinsider.com/tony-podesta-russian-backed-lobbying-ukraine-manafort-mueller-russia-2017-10
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on August 26, 2018, 03:19:43 PM
You've investigated nothing.

It was we as a country lol. It was implied that I am not Loretta Lynch.


Schwab
My point was that Podesta, a longtime Clinton operative, worked with Manafort's firm to help the Ukrainians.  Both sides had people working with the Ukrainians not just Trump.  https://amp.businessinsider.com/tony-podesta-russian-backed-lobbying-ukraine-manafort-mueller-russia-2017-10

I'm aware there are a lot of potential FARA violators. Again, I support them all facing justice. I suspect many will. Tony Podesta isn't the POTUS though. That's where I go from generally staying out of politics to writing about it. I'll probably go back to not writing about politics (unless it's investing related) in the future. I don't believe I've ever stated my own political beliefs. You could probably broadly guess them with respect to immigration but that's about it. I don't care if R's, D's, or some mix controls government. I think the country is generally fine. It's just Trump's non-policy (allegedly illegal) actions I don't like.

Either way, I don't see why it matters. Everyone in the world is a hypocrite at times. So many R's generally root for D's to be caught and not R's and vice versa. Who cares. Sometimes the crimes aren't petty abuse of power (like misusing tax payer $ to fly your pet rabbit) and you need to speak up imo.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on August 26, 2018, 03:59:39 PM
You've investigated nothing.

It was we as a country lol. It was implied that I am not Loretta Lynch.



Oh, so you believe that Loretta Lynch story:

Once upon a time, 2 chartered jets happen to inadvertently meet up on a hot Arizona tarmac. Out walks Loretta Lynch, and Bill Clinton  at the same time -
"oh, my gosh, that is Bill Clinton's plane, what a co-incidence!" and then we went onto Clinton's plane and talked about
"our grandchildren" - "we never talked about the obstruction of justice matter that his wife was involved with" - and six days later the "matter" was closed. 
So you believe that fairy tale??

More likely, it went like this: "Loretta, we both know Hillary is going to be President and she'll need the Attorney General position filled. It'll be hard for Hillary to select you, if you go too tough on her - that should be obvious. Now the polls have Trump with a 10% chance of winning - what are you gonna do Loretta?"

Of course, there are no witnesses to any conversation as the 2 of them left a dozen officials roasting on the tarmac while they
talked about "their grandchildren" on the air-conditioned plane.

Right Schwab? That's how it went right?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Gregmal on August 26, 2018, 04:09:47 PM
You've investigated nothing.

It was we as a country lol. It was implied that I am not Loretta Lynch.



Oh, so you believe that Loretta Lynch story:

Once upon a time, 2 chartered jets happen to inadvertently meet up on a hot Arizona tarmac. Out walks Loretta Lynch, and Bill Clinton  at the same time -
"oh, my gosh, that is Bill Clinton's plane, what a co-incidence!" and then we went onto Clinton's plane and talked about
"our grandchildren" - "we never talked about the obstruction of justice matter that his wife was involved with" - and six days later the "matter" was closed. 
So you believe that fairy tale??

More likely, it went like this: "Loretta, we both know Hillary is going to be President and she'll need the Attorney General position filled. It'll be hard for Hillary to select you, if you go too tough on her - that should be obvious. Now the polls have Trump with a 10% chance of winning - what are you gonna do Loretta?"

Of course, there are no witnesses to any conversation as the 2 of them left a dozen officials roasting on the tarmac while they
talked about "their grandchildren" on the air-conditioned plane.

Right Schwab? That's how it went right?

Yea but it was really Trump who set up that meeting. At the direction of the Russians. More of less because he's their puppet because they have dirt on him.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on August 26, 2018, 04:26:03 PM
Why don't we put both Hillary and Trump in jail.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on August 26, 2018, 04:37:32 PM
...
I'll probably go back to not writing about politics (unless it's investing related) in the future...
I think the country is generally fine...
Either way, I don't see why it matters...
There is a sense of contribution fatigue here (which is shared, is it worth it?).
There seems to be a perception among some quarters that corruption (public or otherwise) is significantly on the rise.
It is clear that this perception is on the rise for certain aspects and I wonder if this is not related to the taking democracy for granted phenomenon.

Anyways, from a humble perspective, IMO corruption continues to exist but is not necessarily more prevalent than before.
Trying to quantify that.
https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_perceptions_index_2017
faculty.missouri.edu/~milyoj/files/Public%20Integrity.pdf

I think the American Dream is alive.
Tough issues have to be dealt with: debt, entitlements, government size and waste but why not face the issues head on by forming bipartisan groups?
Am I deranged?

I'm happy in Canada but our future is quite dependent on yours and will continue to look up to the shining city upon a hill for investments and otherwise.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on August 26, 2018, 05:01:56 PM
Quote
Tough issues have to be dealt with: debt, entitlements, government size and waste but why not face the issues head on by forming bipartisan groups?
Am I deranged?

Not deranged. I would add a few issues: growing wealth inequality, falling economic/social mobility, regression of social issues (immigration, women's rights, for example), increasing healthcare cost/burden.

On corruption: isn't it better to measure actual corruption versus the "perception" of corruption? I am not sure if such a statistic exists, however.

Quote
I think the American Dream is alive.
For those reasons I cannot agree with the above quote. Perhaps "the American dream is floating (but the tide is on its way out)"
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rb on August 26, 2018, 05:15:40 PM
Tough issues have to be dealt with: debt, entitlements, government size and waste but why not face the issues head on by forming bipartisan groups?
Am I deranged?
If you wrote that sentence then yes, you are.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on August 26, 2018, 07:43:31 PM
You've investigated nothing.
It was we as a country lol. It was implied that I am not Loretta Lynch.

Oh, so you believe that Loretta Lynch story:

Once upon a time, 2 chartered jets happen to inadvertently meet up on a hot Arizona tarmac. Out walks Loretta Lynch, and Bill Clinton  at the same time -
"oh, my gosh, that is Bill Clinton's plane, what a co-incidence!" and then we went onto Clinton's plane and talked about
"our grandchildren" - "we never talked about the obstruction of justice matter that his wife was involved with" - and six days later the "matter" was closed. 
So you believe that fairy tale??

More likely, it went like this: "Loretta, we both know Hillary is going to be President and she'll need the Attorney General position filled. It'll be hard for Hillary to select you, if you go too tough on her - that should be obvious. Now the polls have Trump with a 10% chance of winning - what are you gonna do Loretta?"

Of course, there are no witnesses to any conversation as the 2 of them left a dozen officials roasting on the tarmac while they
talked about "their grandchildren" on the air-conditioned plane.

Right Schwab? That's how it went right?

I will repeat this because you don't seem to see the irony here. Trump personally interviewed the SDNY AUSA where he now faces legal pressure. Despite the obvious COI, life moves on. Trump's personally chosen AUSA got the plea deal from Cohen (and gave immunity to his CFO).

This means the "NSA/CIA/FBI/Obama/Clinton/100,000 other people conspiracy" against Trump somehow also includes lawyers and judges he personally selected. It's incredible opportune that the conspiracy is always magically redefined to include the next person that Trump doesn't like. The Trump appointed IG said the overall investigation was not impacted by political bias. Again, I don't know what more you need to move on.

It's funny that your entire evidence against Lynch is you believe the conversation went a certain way, without any witnesses or articles leading you to that opinion. It's purely conjecture. It's hard to talk to someone that admittedly makes up their own reality and cites it as undeniable proof.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on August 26, 2018, 08:13:38 PM
Who said undeniable proof?   

I am talking about common sense here.

I just think you also believe in the tooth fairy.  Who would believe the Loretta Lynch version? After all, if she told the real facts, she and
Clinton would be Obstructing Justice. Why do you think there were no witnesses, while they fried out on the tarmac, during such an "innocent" conversation?

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/arizona/2018/06/14/bill-clinton-and-loretta-lynch-meeting-phoenix-airport-details/703771002/

You like fairy tales, I don't.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on August 27, 2018, 05:15:56 AM
Who said undeniable proof?   

I am talking about common sense here.

I just think you also believe in the tooth fairy.  Who would believe the Loretta Lynch version? After all, if she told the real facts, she and
Clinton would be Obstructing Justice. Why do you think there were no witnesses, while they fried out on the tarmac, during such an "innocent" conversation?

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/arizona/2018/06/14/bill-clinton-and-loretta-lynch-meeting-phoenix-airport-details/703771002/

You like fairy tales, I don't.

The argument for Trump and obstruction doesn't need to assume what was said, but you call people that think Trump committed a crime all sorts of names.

Your Clinton/Lynch narrative is a sole event and was investigated by Trump's appointee. You choose to ignore the IG's conclusion and what is know. Instead you assume the worse possible things were said, without any proof, and use that assumption to support your theory of an Obama/Clinton racket, again, without any proof.

Can you see the problem here?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on August 27, 2018, 05:35:33 AM
What the heck are you talking about - I called them corrupt, which they are. You just choose not to see it.

In order to believe the Loretta Lynch lies, you have to be either extremely partisan or a fool. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that
you are extremely partisan. After all, Lynch had to lie, when caught, in order to avoid an Obstruction of Justice charge. She needed to
save her own skin, but did it for partisan reasons - she wanted to be the next permanent Attorney General under Hillary.

To believe anything else defies any sense of logic. This was a pattern of Obama and Clinton crime syndicate. Susan Rice did the same thing,
again, under direction of Hillary and Obama - lied to the American people and Congress with a fabricated story about a video that caused
the Benghazi attack and murder of 4 American heroes. Rice did it to become the next Secretary of State - but there she got caught in the lie.

This is the court of public opinion and common sense. That is what the American people see.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on August 27, 2018, 06:39:22 AM
This is the court of public opinion and common sense. That is what the American people see.

Then you are a hypocrite to not see it for Trump too, right? That's what I've been getting at. I can see your point of view with Clinton (even if we disagree on specifics), but you can't see my point of view on Trump.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on August 27, 2018, 07:14:19 AM
Trump is far from perfect, but he is doing great things for this country, unlike the previous administration, who did nothing.

The level of corruption under Clinton/Obama was breathtaking. The arrogance of Obama was stunning. And I voted for the guy.

What I want from a President is action, someone who will get something done. There certainly is no "collusion" with Russia if that
is what you are getting at.  How do you collude with Russia and then bomb the crap out of them in Syria, killing 200 of their mercenaries?
Do you do that to your collusion partner? Do you then embargo your collusion partner and try and force Western Europe to stop supporting
them economically? Is that what you do to your collusion partner?

All of this defies common sense - it's just a high stakes partisan game to remove a duly elected president.
The left is still in a state of shock over being repudiated by the American people - who they despise.



Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on August 27, 2018, 10:28:48 AM
Did you know that Trump Derangement Syndrome is not just psychological.  It also has physical, physiological, manifestations.

Here are some recent instances of premature, retrograde ejaculation:

Now you have two very close Trump cohorts going to jail...white collar criminals yes...but criminals nonetheless.  And in Manafort's case, the size of the fraud and tax evasion was enormous!  This is not a good guy, or brave guy as the President touts, but a f**king crook that he employed and was very close to.  So, let's not discount the whole Russian Collusion thing until this is all over.  It's been nothing but lies, hypocrisy and bullshit for 18 months!
 Cheers!

But Trump made a fashion statement of the ankle bracelet from US Pen (intentiary)  :D
Gotta have something to sell to pay the bills!

SD

"audio recordings made by Mr. Cohen" lol.

Womp. Womp.
https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1032667209661931522

Looks like there are now hints that parts of the Steele Dossier involving Cohen are going to be confirmed: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/22/michael-cohen-paid-a-mysterious-tech-company-50000-in-connection-with-trumps-campaign.html

This is top of my list of things I want to know about since Cohen has flipped. Next on the list is what was Cohen doing for Hannity? We know what Cohen did for Trump and Broidy. What are the chances he did the same thing for Hannity?

The hits just keep coming..

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-07-25/new-cohen-recording-surfaces-a-bigger-catch

Oh boy https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-08-26/southern-district-of-new-york-will-tear-into-trump-organization

How do we know these were dry orgasms?  https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/attorney-for-michael-cohen-backs-away-from-confidence-that-cohen-has-information-about-trumps-knowledge-on-russian-efforts/2018/08/26/09d7f26e-a876-11e8-97ce-cc9042272f07_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.8a2c442e6b52

https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1032311832025935872?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1032367459439788040&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.conservativereview.com%2Fnews%2Fmichael-cohen-attorney-lanny-davis-is-on-the-payroll-of-a-putin-ally%2F

When you guys are shooting blanks, you've got no chance of landing the likes of Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal.



Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on August 27, 2018, 02:32:25 PM
Your response is, at best, equally flaccid as we all have no idea what Cohen knows or doesn't know.

Despite your difficulty with rigidity, I'm sure with enough cash Ms. Daniels would still meet you at Trump Tower. Penthouse only, however - the one clad in gold. I hear she's worked in that shower before  ;D
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on August 27, 2018, 03:02:00 PM
Your response is, at best, equally flaccid as we all have no idea what Cohen knows or doesn't know.

Despite your difficulty with rigidity, I'm sure with enough cash Ms. Daniels would still meet you at Trump Tower. Penthouse only, however - the one clad in gold. I hear she's worked in that shower before  ;D

Over at the National Enquirer, do you think Pecker is going to leak?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on August 28, 2018, 04:44:49 AM
Tough issues have to be dealt with: debt, entitlements, government size and waste but why not face the issues head on by forming bipartisan groups?
Am I deranged?
If you wrote that sentence then yes, you are.
Sometimes, thoughtful dialogues end before they start.
And I wonder if this may be one of the factors behind the rising "drain the swamp" mentality.
Derangement comes in many flavors.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on August 28, 2018, 11:21:28 AM
Tough issues have to be dealt with: debt, entitlements, government size and waste but why not face the issues head on by forming bipartisan groups?
Am I deranged?
If you wrote that sentence then yes, you are.
Sometimes, thoughtful dialogues end before they start.
And I wonder if this may be one of the factors behind the rising "drain the swamp" mentality.
Derangement comes in many flavors.

I'm with you Cigarbutt. Civility, common sense, and bipartisan governing will be back in vogue at some point. You can't sustain (or win elections by) hating 50% of your country forever.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on August 28, 2018, 11:53:05 AM
Tough issues have to be dealt with: debt, entitlements, government size and waste but why not face the issues head on by forming bipartisan groups?
Am I deranged?
If you wrote that sentence then yes, you are.
Sometimes, thoughtful dialogues end before they start.
And I wonder if this may be one of the factors behind the rising "drain the swamp" mentality.
Derangement comes in many flavors.

I'm with you Cigarbutt. Civility, common sense, and bipartisan governing will be back in vogue at some point. You can't sustain (or win elections by) hating 50% of your country forever.

Yes, that will be a great day.

As soon as the far left refrains from call to cut the Presidents head off, stab him in the park, assassinate him, and blow up the White House.
These things never happened to President Obama - it's an unhinged left that has NO respect for the Office of the President.
I never wished for Obama to fail - but the left just can not stand Trump's success. They will never get over losing the election.

One day, I will enjoy seeing all citizens get behind any elected President, as the United States used to be the model of "peaceful transition of power".
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on August 28, 2018, 12:08:21 PM
I wasn't directing my comment at Republicans or Trump supporters in particular. I think Democrat supporters hate Republicans and vice versa. I don't think it's efficient for the country (or any country) to operate that way. What I wrote is what I meant. Maybe give me the benefit of the doubt going forward and you'll see we have a lot more in common then you think.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Gregmal on August 28, 2018, 12:11:00 PM
Tough issues have to be dealt with: debt, entitlements, government size and waste but why not face the issues head on by forming bipartisan groups?
Am I deranged?
If you wrote that sentence then yes, you are.
Sometimes, thoughtful dialogues end before they start.
And I wonder if this may be one of the factors behind the rising "drain the swamp" mentality.
Derangement comes in many flavors.

I'm with you Cigarbutt. Civility, common sense, and bipartisan governing will be back in vogue at some point. You can't sustain (or win elections by) hating 50% of your country forever.

Yes, that will be a great day.

As soon as the far left refrains from call to cut the Presidents head off, stab him in the park, assassinate him, and blow up the White House.
These things never happened to President Obama - it's an unhinged left that has NO respect for the Office of the President.
I never wished for Obama to fail - but the left just can not stand Trump's success. They will never get over losing the election.

One day, I will enjoy seeing all citizens get behind any elected President, as the United States used to be the model of "peaceful transition of power".

Unfortunately, the only time in my lifetime I've seen this(a united country) was as a direct result of 9/11. It lasted for maybe a year.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rb on August 28, 2018, 12:53:45 PM
As soon as the far left refrains from call to cut the Presidents head off, stab him in the park, assassinate him, and blow up the White House.
These things never happened to President Obama - it's an unhinged left that has NO respect for the Office of the President.
I never wished for Obama to fail - but the left just can not stand Trump's success. They will never get over losing the election.

One day, I will enjoy seeing all citizens get behind any elected President, as the United States used to be the model of "peaceful transition of power".
This is hilarious!

Firstly, the left is not calling for the assassination of Trump, Kathy Griffin is not "the left".

And Obama didn't have to deal with any of it? What would you call the Birther movement? A reasonable movement showing respect for the Office of the President?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Gregmal on August 28, 2018, 01:00:50 PM
As soon as the far left refrains from call to cut the Presidents head off, stab him in the park, assassinate him, and blow up the White House.
These things never happened to President Obama - it's an unhinged left that has NO respect for the Office of the President.
I never wished for Obama to fail - but the left just can not stand Trump's success. They will never get over losing the election.

One day, I will enjoy seeing all citizens get behind any elected President, as the United States used to be the model of "peaceful transition of power".
This is hilarious!

Firstly, the left is not calling for the assassination of Trump, Kathy Griffin is not "the left".

And Obama didn't have to deal with any of it? What would you call the Birther movement? A reasonable movement showing respect for the Office of the President?

Go to CNN.com. How many of the top page, featured news stories are anti-Trump? Almost all. Not even Fox was this bad to Obama on a day in, day out basis. There's no comparison.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Spekulatius on August 28, 2018, 01:06:34 PM
Tough issues have to be dealt with: debt, entitlements, government size and waste but why not face the issues head on by forming bipartisan groups?
Am I deranged?
If you wrote that sentence then yes, you are.
Sometimes, thoughtful dialogues end before they start.
And I wonder if this may be one of the factors behind the rising "drain the swamp" mentality.
Derangement comes in many flavors.

I'm with you Cigarbutt. Civility, common sense, and bipartisan governing will be back in vogue at some point. You can't sustain (or win elections by) hating 50% of your country forever.

Yes, that will be a great day.

As soon as the far left refrains from call to cut the Presidents head off, stab him in the park, assassinate him, and blow up the White House.
These things never happened to President Obama - it's an unhinged left that has NO respect for the Office of the President.
I never wished for Obama to fail - but the left just can not stand Trump's success. They will never get over losing the election.

One day, I will enjoy seeing all citizens get behind any elected President, as the United States used to be the model of "peaceful transition of power".

Unfortunately, the only time in my lifetime I've seen this(a united country) was as a direct result of 9/11. It lasted for maybe a year.

9/11 brought us the Patriot Act- big Brothers wet dream.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rb on August 28, 2018, 01:08:23 PM
As soon as the far left refrains from call to cut the Presidents head off, stab him in the park, assassinate him, and blow up the White House.
These things never happened to President Obama - it's an unhinged left that has NO respect for the Office of the President.
I never wished for Obama to fail - but the left just can not stand Trump's success. They will never get over losing the election.

One day, I will enjoy seeing all citizens get behind any elected President, as the United States used to be the model of "peaceful transition of power".
This is hilarious!

Firstly, the left is not calling for the assassination of Trump, Kathy Griffin is not "the left".

And Obama didn't have to deal with any of it? What would you call the Birther movement? A reasonable movement showing respect for the Office of the President?

Go to CNN.com. How many of the top page, featured news stories are anti-Trump? Almost all. Not even Fox was this bad to Obama on a day in, day out basis. There's no comparison.
I went. I saw just one. The one talking about how Trump claimed that Google was rigged against him. But here's a thought, if Trump would like people to not think he's crazy he could say less crazy shit.

Anyway, urelated, who cares what stories CNN is running, and who watches anyway? CNN is a joke and has been so for a long time now. It's a shame also, because they have some good people working there.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on August 28, 2018, 01:15:52 PM
I wasn't directing my comment at Republicans or Trump supporters in particular. I think Democrat supporters hate Republicans and vice versa. I don't think it's efficient for the country (or any country) to operate that way. What I wrote is what I meant. Maybe give me the benefit of the doubt going forward and you'll see we have a lot more in common then you think.

Agree with these sentiments.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on August 28, 2018, 01:26:40 PM
I wasn't directing my comment at Republicans or Trump supporters in particular. I think Democrat supporters hate Republicans and vice versa. I don't think it's efficient for the country (or any country) to operate that way. What I wrote is what I meant. Maybe give me the benefit of the doubt going forward and you'll see we have a lot more in common then you think.

Finally, you and I agree on something. Must mean we are getting somewhere!
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on August 28, 2018, 01:42:19 PM

As soon as the far left refrains from call to cut the Presidents head off, stab him in the park, assassinate him, and blow up the White House.
These things never happened to President Obama - it's an unhinged left that has NO respect for the Office of the President.
I never wished for Obama to fail - but the left just can not stand Trump's success. They will never get over losing the election.

One day, I will enjoy seeing all citizens get behind any elected President, as the United States used to be the model of "peaceful transition of power".
This is hilarious!

Firstly, the left is not calling for the assassination of Trump, Kathy Griffin is not "the left".

And Obama didn't have to deal with any of it? What would you call the Birther movement? A reasonable movement showing respect for the Office of the President?



Calling for the murder of the President is unprecedented in American history - violence is a hallmark of today's unhinged left, as the end justifies the means.
Schwab had it right in a desire for real civility among the populace.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: meiroy on August 29, 2018, 02:19:38 AM

What do you guys think about Nikki Haley as the next POTUS? Would she get GOP support?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: MarkS on August 29, 2018, 04:38:28 AM
I like what I've seen of Kiki Haley.  She would definitely be on my short list.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on August 30, 2018, 04:44:07 PM
What sort of TDS example might get even the CoBF anti-Trumpers to agree with me that this is severe TDS?

https://twitter.com/EricBauman/status/1035056785550233603?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1035076530907435009%7Ctwgr%5E373939313b636f6e74726f6c&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ftownhall.com%2Ftipsheet%2Flaurettabrown%2F2018%2F08%2F30%2Fcalifornia-democrats-call-for-boycott-of-innout-burger-after-it-donates-25k-to-republican-party-n2514399
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on September 06, 2018, 09:10:41 AM
And if I ever invest in a company that is run by an idiot and a con man, I hope he'll get removed and replaced as fast as possible, because he can't be good for any business.

If he's an idiot and con man, why is the Trump Organization so successful?

If the President is so bad, why are things so good?

(Now watch as Hairtrigger Liberty goes into full-blown cognitive dissonance with his non-reply.)
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on September 06, 2018, 10:00:41 AM
That's a dumb question. The trains run on time in fascist Italy.

Also hasn't Trump underperformed the S&P over like 30+ years?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on September 06, 2018, 10:03:02 AM
That's a dumb question. The trains run on time in fascist Italy.

Perfect cognitive dissonance answer!  The Hitler-Mussolini-Fascism hallucination!

Thank you for falling into my trap!

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on September 06, 2018, 10:05:30 AM
Oh man you remind me of a child:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_LZMkpFn_s
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on September 06, 2018, 10:48:53 AM
Oh man you remind me of a child:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_LZMkpFn_s

Yet another imagination/hallucination.

Notice how my questions cannot be answered without displaying cognitive dissonance.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Gregmal on September 06, 2018, 12:45:17 PM
https://www.instagram.com/p/BnXG-RVHnB_/?utm_source=ig_embed

LOL, look at all the people who hate him, yet for some peculiar reason follow him on social media, and even talk to him. TDS!
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on September 07, 2018, 10:59:18 AM
Professor Munger has advised me (and President Trump has authorized me to use the following Trumpian nicknames) to flunk out of his class Little C**k LC for his recent ineffectual, limp responses; and Hairtrigger Liberty and Smiley Fratboy Parsad for the following "insane!" posts:

He kept saying "amonomyous".  You have a moron running the country, but let's worry about anonymous sources.  Cheers!

. . . a company that is run by an idiot and a con man

Anti-Trumpians need to get together to decide whether he's an idiot, or whether he's a con man.  You can't be both.

Once you all decide, next tackle my questions which I will repeat here:

"If he's an idiot and con man, why is the Trump Organization so successful?
If the President is so bad, why are things so good?"

(Now watch for silence, or for the cognitive dissonance sparks to fly.)

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on September 07, 2018, 11:04:33 AM
You know for all the shit you talk, you know about 3 words and don't quite use them correctly. Find a new slant buddy we're all tired of your nonsense.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on September 07, 2018, 11:37:42 AM
Professor Munger has advised me (and President Trump has authorized me to use the following Trumpian nicknames) to flunk out of his class Little C**k LC for his recent ineffectual, limp responses; and Hairtrigger Liberty and Smiley Fratboy Parsad for the following "insane!" posts:

He kept saying "amonomyous".  You have a moron running the country, but let's worry about anonymous sources.  Cheers!

. . . a company that is run by an idiot and a con man

Anti-Trumpians need to get together to decide whether he's an idiot, or whether he's a con man.  You can't be both.

Once you all decide, next tackle my questions which I will repeat here:

"If he's an idiot and con man, why is the Trump Organization so successful?
If the President is so bad, why are things so good?"

(Now watch for silence, or for the cognitive dissonance sparks to fly.)

Trump is certainly not an idiot or a con man.

You gotta be a genius to pull off what the man has pulled off -
How many of you could develop skyscraper after skyscraper in downtown Manhattan?
How many of you could defeat 16 outstanding republican candidates for the nomination?
How many of you could defeat a shoe in for President, who had a $1B in funds and the top advisors - but you had absolutely no money and no organization?

You have to be a genius to do this - and your partisan hatred is TDS!
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cardboard on September 07, 2018, 12:52:43 PM
"Find a new slant buddy we're all tired of your nonsense."

Actually I am not tired at all and keep going Cobafdek!

Glad that some have joined me against the cry babies of CoBF: "Hillary lost, snif snif!"

Cardboard
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Liberty on September 07, 2018, 12:58:21 PM
Anti-Trumpians need to get together to decide whether he's an idiot, or whether he's a con man.  You can't be both.

Of course you can. Depends who you're conning...

His con style is "used car salesman bravado" and "tell them what they want to hear regardless of facts", on top of playing the character of a successful businessman for the media for decades and building that brand (despite not actually being that), and most people not knowing the difference, not mental chess.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on September 07, 2018, 01:13:35 PM
His style is really talking to the American people as a non-elitist. Middle America and working class American's love this guy.

His talk quickly translates to actions they care about: jobs, jobs, jobs

They are tired of transgender bathrooms, being called racists and bigots, and identity politics.
The great Orator Barrack Obama did more to divide this country in 8 years than anyone in memory.
IF you did not agree with Obama - then you were automatically branded a racist and stupid.
Meanwhile, good jobs left the country.

Trump is reversing Obama's legacy fast (and destroying it) - Middle America loves this guy.

The propaganda media is not delivering the truth - they are elitists and hate Trump and Middle America.

So say what you like about "used car salesman talk" - he walks the talk and is a man of action.
All Obama ever did was give great speeches - his policies were total disasters for jobs and world-wide security.
Barrack had 8 years to fix things - and he was naive about the dangers in this world - and extremely anti business.

Good to be rid of the POS.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Liberty on September 07, 2018, 01:23:52 PM
His style is really talking to the American people as a non-elitist. Middle America and working class American's love this guy.

His talk quickly translates to actions they care about: jobs, jobs, jobs

They are tired of transgender bathrooms, being called racists and bigots, and identity politics.
The great Orator Barrack Obama did more to divide this country in 8 years than anyone in memory.
IF you did not agree with Obama - then you were automatically branded a racist and stupid.
Meanwhile, good jobs left the country.

Trump is reversing Obama's legacy fast (and destroying it) - Middle America loves this guy.

The propaganda media is not delivering the truth - they are elitists and hate Trump and Middle America.

So say what you like about "used car salesman talk" - he walks the talk and is a man of action.
All Obama ever did was give great speeches - his policies were total disasters for jobs and world-wide security.
Barrack had 8 years to fix things - and he was naive about the dangers in this world - and extremely anti business.

Good to be rid of the POS.

Yes, a man of the people, a uniter...

(https://skeptic78240.files.wordpress.com/2018/01/politics-trumpgoldenpalace-01.gif?w=512&zoom=2)

You've been conned. Trump's in it for Trump, as his actions of the past two years (and his life) have made obvious. That you can't see it doesn't change it, and I'm not sure how you justify supporting a sexual abuser and corrupt businessman. At least a lot of the people who support him have the excuse of not paying too much attention and believing he's the character he played on TV. What's your excuse?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on September 07, 2018, 01:30:05 PM
"Find a new slant buddy we're all tired of your nonsense."

Actually I am not tired at all and keep going Cobafdek!

Glad that some have joined me against the cry babies of CoBF: "Hillary lost, snif snif!"

Cardboard

The only people still mentioning Hillary Clinton are Trump supports whose brains have turned into a puddle, much like yourself, Cardboard. I mean, Trump is still gloating over a victory almost 2 years later. I can't recall any other presidents behaving in such a way, probably because they actually do their day jobs.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on September 07, 2018, 01:36:19 PM
Believe what you like pal - you're just drinking the elitist kool-aid in your ivory tower - because the rest of us are just stupid.

Just because he's a billionaire doesn't mean he's not a populist.
He took away the democratic base of working class Americas - against all odds - by taking his message
directly to the people - that he would make their lives better. Clinton sure didn't care about them.

The true elitist party is the Obama/Clinton democratic wing that have no time for the working class
families and their concerns - jobs. They ignored their base, while Trump worked and appealed to that base.
He is making their lives much better.

And you guys call him a moron, con man, idiot. You have no idea how stupid you sound. The man is a genius.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Liberty on September 07, 2018, 01:37:05 PM
The only people still mentioning Hillary Clinton are Trump supports whose brains have turned into a puddle, much like yourself, Cardboard. I mean, Trump is still gloating over a victory almost 2 years later. I can't recall any other presidents behaving in such a way, probably because they actually do their day jobs.

It's the authoritarian playbook. Gary Kasparov has documented it well. Authoritarians are in constant need of enemies and external threats and ways to distract from what they're doing and to keep their supporters angry, and they tend to accuse others of basically everything that they're doing.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Liberty on September 07, 2018, 01:48:50 PM
Believe what you like pal - you're just drinking the elitist kool-aid in your ivory tower - because the rest of us are just stupid.

Just because he's a billionaire doesn't mean he's not a populist.
He took away the democratic base of working class Americas - against all odds - by taking his message
directly to the people - that he would make their lives better. Clinton sure didn't care about them.

The true elitist party is the Obama/Clinton democratic wing that have no time for the working class
families and their concerns - jobs. They ignored their base, while Trump worked and appealed to that base.
He is making their lives much better.

And you guys call him a moron, con man, idiot. You have no idea how stupid you sound. The man is a genius.

Trump, very stable genius, man of the little people. ;D

You realize he's never given a crap about normal people for all his life until he needed their votes, and then pulled all the stops going full politician with vague promises promises promises... You'll get the moooon!  Now he's taking full credit for the economy that is just doing what it's been doing for years, and if the economy was to turn the other way (because as we know, presidents don't control the economy), I'm sure he'd blame Obama or Clinton for it.

You've been conned. The man cheats on his wives, sexual assaults dozens of women, lies about his wealth and business acumen, puts children in cages away from their parents without a plan to bring them back together, tries to ban hundreds of millions of people from coming to the US based on their religion, defends neo-nazis, attacks and insults US allies while being a carpet for Putin and praising other despots (Kim, Ergodan, Sissi), obstructs investigations into his shady dealings by firing or trying to fire those who investigate him, attacks and insults US intelligence services, almost all his cabinet has left or being fired or is going to prison or testifying against him, does his best to reduce international trade because he doesn't understand trade deficits, he has the thinnest snowflake skin ever--not what you want a CEO with nukes to be, etc. Genius.

He happens to be a celebrity at a time when politics has been turned upside down by social media and the internet, and what it took to win was the ability to attract as much attention as possible and to make people respond as emotionally as possible (as opposed to rationally). He's really good at that.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on September 07, 2018, 01:49:15 PM
His style is really talking to the American people as a non-elitist. Middle America and working class American's love this guy.

His talk quickly translates to actions they care about: jobs, jobs, jobs

They are tired of transgender bathrooms, being called racists and bigots, and identity politics.
The great Orator Barrack Obama did more to divide this country in 8 years than anyone in memory.
IF you did not agree with Obama - then you were automatically branded a racist and stupid.
Meanwhile, good jobs left the country.

Trump is reversing Obama's legacy fast (and destroying it) - Middle America loves this guy.

The propaganda media is not delivering the truth - they are elitists and hate Trump and Middle America.

So say what you like about "used car salesman talk" - he walks the talk and is a man of action.
All Obama ever did was give great speeches - his policies were total disasters for jobs and world-wide security.
Barrack had 8 years to fix things - and he was naive about the dangers in this world - and extremely anti business.

Good to be rid of the POS.

Yes, a man of the people, a uniter...

(https://skeptic78240.files.wordpress.com/2018/01/politics-trumpgoldenpalace-01.gif?w=512&zoom=2)

You've been conned. Trump's in it for Trump, as his actions of the past two years (and his life) have made obvious. That you can't see it doesn't change it, and I'm not sure how you justify supporting a sexual abuser and corrupt businessman. At least a lot of the people who support him have the excuse of not paying too much attention and believing he's the character he played on TV. What's your excuse?

You sound like a total idiot. The proof is right before your eyes - an improving and thriving economy - making a difference in the lives of millions of Americans. Can't even give the man credit for the good he has done the nation. You just hate him too much.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Liberty on September 07, 2018, 01:51:32 PM
You sound like a total idiot. The proof is right before your eyes - an improving and thriving economy - making a difference in the lives of millions of Americans. Can't even give the man credit for the good he has done the nation. You just hate him too much.

Presidents don't control the economy. Any republican with control of both houses would've passed that tax cut. If you want to judge Trump, judge him on things he control, and on things that he's done differently from any other R would've done in his seat. There's plenty of that, and it's not pretty.

Besides, the economy has improved tremendously under Obama, why don't you give him credit for that if you believe that presidents control the economy?

Oh, and thanks for calling me an idiot. Compliment coming from you.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on September 07, 2018, 01:56:26 PM
Believe what you like pal - you're just drinking the elitist kool-aid in your ivory tower - because the rest of us are just stupid.

Just because he's a billionaire doesn't mean he's not a populist.
He took away the democratic base of working class Americas - against all odds - by taking his message
directly to the people - that he would make their lives better. Clinton sure didn't care about them.

The true elitist party is the Obama/Clinton democratic wing that have no time for the working class
families and their concerns - jobs. They ignored their base, while Trump worked and appealed to that base.
He is making their lives much better.

And you guys call him a moron, con man, idiot. You have no idea how stupid you sound. The man is a genius.

Trump, very stable genius, man of the little people. ;D

You realize he's never given a crap about normal people for all his life until he needed their votes, and then pulled all the stops going full politician with vague promises promises promises... You'll get the moooon!  Now he's taking full credit for the economy that is just doing what it's been doing for years, and if the economy was to turn the other way (because as we know, presidents don't control the economy), I'm sure he'd blame Obama or Clinton for it.

You've been conned. The man cheats on his wives, sexual assaults dozens of women, lies about his wealthy and business acumen, puts children in cages away from their parents without a plan to bring them back together, tries to ban hundreds of millions of people from coming to the US based on their religion, defends neo-nazis, attacks and insults US allies while being a carpet for Putin and praising other despots (Kim, Ergodan, Sissi), obstructs investigations into his shady dealings by firing or trying to fire those who investigate him, attacks and insults US intelligence services, almost all his cabinet has left or being fired or is going to prison or testifying against him, does his best to reduce international trade because he doesn't understand trade deficits, he has the thinnest snowflake skin ever--not what you want a CEO with nukes to be, etc. Genius.

Where do you come up with this crap anyway?

What really matters is jobs and national security. 

On both counts we are miles ahead - the people are getting exactly what they voted for - and love it.

Keep twisting the truth.

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on September 07, 2018, 01:59:07 PM
You sound like a total idiot. The proof is right before your eyes - an improving and thriving economy - making a difference in the lives of millions of Americans. Can't even give the man credit for the good he has done the nation. You just hate him too much.

Presidents don't control the economy. Any republican with control of both houses would've passed that tax cut. If you want to judge Trump, judge him on things he control, and on things that he's done differently from any other R would've done in his seat. There's plenty of that, and it's not pretty.

Besides, the economy has improved tremendously under Obama, why don't you give him credit for that if you believe that presidents control the economy?

Oh, and thanks for calling me an idiot. Compliment coming from you.

You deserve it, since according to you, I am so easily conned.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on September 07, 2018, 02:05:19 PM
You sound like a total idiot. The proof is right before your eyes - an improving and thriving economy - making a difference in the lives of millions of Americans. Can't even give the man credit for the good he has done the nation. You just hate him too much.

Presidents don't control the economy. Any republican with control of both houses would've passed that tax cut. If you want to judge Trump, judge him on things he control, and on things that he's done differently from any other R would've done in his seat. There's plenty of that, and it's not pretty.

Besides, the economy has improved tremendously under Obama, why don't you give him credit for that if you believe that presidents control the economy?

Oh, and thanks for calling me an idiot. Compliment coming from you.

You're kidding me again, I see?

Massive tax cuts don't help the economy? yea, sure

Obama did nothing for the economy, nothing.  He was the most anti business president in my lifetime. Consumer confidence and business confidence hit all time lows under this knucklehead. He killed business reinvestment. He rolled out tremendous business strangling regulations. These, of course, have been rolled back under Trump - thank god.

IF you want a savior for the American economy - look no further than the awesome job the Federal Reserve did - simply magnificent - IN spite of Obama and his business killing initiatives.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Gregmal on September 07, 2018, 02:43:33 PM
His style is really talking to the American people as a non-elitist. Middle America and working class American's love this guy.

His talk quickly translates to actions they care about: jobs, jobs, jobs

They are tired of transgender bathrooms, being called racists and bigots, and identity politics.
The great Orator Barrack Obama did more to divide this country in 8 years than anyone in memory.
IF you did not agree with Obama - then you were automatically branded a racist and stupid.
Meanwhile, good jobs left the country.

Trump is reversing Obama's legacy fast (and destroying it) - Middle America loves this guy.

The propaganda media is not delivering the truth - they are elitists and hate Trump and Middle America.

So say what you like about "used car salesman talk" - he walks the talk and is a man of action.
All Obama ever did was give great speeches - his policies were total disasters for jobs and world-wide security.
Barrack had 8 years to fix things - and he was naive about the dangers in this world - and extremely anti business.

Good to be rid of the POS.

Yes, a man of the people, a uniter...

(https://skeptic78240.files.wordpress.com/2018/01/politics-trumpgoldenpalace-01.gif?w=512&zoom=2)

You've been conned. Trump's in it for Trump, as his actions of the past two years (and his life) have made obvious. That you can't see it doesn't change it, and I'm not sure how you justify supporting a sexual abuser and corrupt businessman. At least a lot of the people who support him have the excuse of not paying too much attention and believing he's the character he played on TV. What's your excuse?

LOL, yea, I suppose Barry O, or Dubya, or any previous president, not to mention Hillary, Gore, etc were all "of the people". Purest most benevolent politicians ever who only ended up doing $400k per appearance speaking gigs after cuz they were "bankrupt" but yea, Trumps a bum who is not "of the people" and a bad businessman because he bankrupted 4 out out the 400+ companies he owns... Got it.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on September 07, 2018, 03:45:35 PM

LOL, yea, I suppose Barry O, or Dubya, or any previous president, not to mention Hillary, Gore, etc were all "of the people". Purest most benevolent politicians ever who only ended up doing $400k per appearance speaking gigs after cuz they were "bankrupt" but yea, Trumps a bum who is not "of the people" and a bad businessman because he bankrupted 4 out out the 400+ companies he owns... Got it.

Yea, the Clintons were the masters of "pay to play" - want some influence? - just fund my foundation or have the russians give my husband $400K to speak.
Then, I'll grease the skids for 20% of our uranium back to you.

Need some help getting business from foreign government officials? Just make a donation to the Clinton foundation and you're in businesses!

Good thing they had that private server for all their "non-gov" personal activities.
Too bad they didn't get rid of all the emails.

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Gregmal on September 07, 2018, 04:14:23 PM

LOL, yea, I suppose Barry O, or Dubya, or any previous president, not to mention Hillary, Gore, etc were all "of the people". Purest most benevolent politicians ever who only ended up doing $400k per appearance speaking gigs after cuz they were "bankrupt" but yea, Trumps a bum who is not "of the people" and a bad businessman because he bankrupted 4 out out the 400+ companies he owns... Got it.

Yea, the Clintons were the masters of "pay to play" - want some influence? - just fund my foundation or have the russians give my husband $400K to speak.
Then, I'll grease the skids for 20% of our uranium back to you.

Need some help getting business from foreign government officials? Just make a donation to the Clinton foundation and you're in businesses!

Good thing that had that private server for all their "non-gov" personal activities.
Too bad they didn't get rid of all the emails.

Yup. You see that's the thing here. Liberty and the like are SOOOO full of shit with their rhetoric. Like non of it is coherent and at best, just like the "of the people" complaint, the issue is better applied to all of their heroes who came before The Donald. The only thing consistent, is, THEY HATE TRUMP!!!
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Liberty on September 07, 2018, 04:47:52 PM
You guys are a great example of the narrow partisan mind.

I never said anything about any other president, I have my complaints about them, but this isn't about that. They aren't in power right now. Obama and Clinton can be whatever you want, that doesn't make Trump any better, does it?

I point out that Trump is a garbage human and not what he pretends to be, and cite evidence for it (he's on tape bragging about sexual assault and has as many accusers as Weinstein and Cosby, his own attorney is going to jail for fraud and has said he asked him to commit a crime, his own State Treasury called him a moron, he defended neo-nazis on live TV shocking everyone, his casinos went bankrupt, he inherited a much larger fortune than he pretends, his campaign chairman is going to prison for committing fraud while working as a foreign agent for Russia, his CFO is testifying against him, he totally kissed Putin's ring live on TV and many in his own party said it was treasonous... I'm not making that stuff up, though maybe you guys get all your Trump news from Trump's twitter and Fox news so you aren't aware), and all you guys can do is turn this into "team red against team blue" and "oh yeah, but others have done wrong things too!". So you guys are proponents of two wrongs make a right?

That's really weak sauce.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on September 07, 2018, 05:01:30 PM
No Liberty - you just keep throwing up garbage here.

Here is what American's care about: Jobs and National Security

That is what I want from my President - take care of business at home, take care of the people that voted you in, do what you say you
are going to do. And I don't care if you are not as eloquent as Obama. That is about it. Just do something!

Obama was a disaster, had 8 years and failed.

Trump is a huge success.

You can keep focusing on all your BS and PC nonsense. Most Americas don't care. We want the President to lead and get something done.
We have families that we need to feed and keep them safe.

For the "deplorables" it's real simple. The previous administration lost sight of that.

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: no_free_lunch on September 07, 2018, 06:49:37 PM
The way i see it there are many positives to his presidency from pure US perspective. Tax cuts, deregulation, pushing back on unions, trying to pull US from global policing, pushing against trade manipulation, support for law enforcement, reversing affirmative action.  So much to like.

I have read the arguments against and most dont hold water. I think there is something to the kids being separated but hey dont cross illegally i guess.  I wonder how many kids get raped in the us by repeat offenders and why that isnt worth talking about. Makes me think libs outrage is fake.

Weigh it all out and i can see why he got voted in.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Parsad on September 07, 2018, 07:08:48 PM
Professor Munger has advised me (and President Trump has authorized me to use the following Trumpian nicknames) to flunk out of his class Little C**k LC for his recent ineffectual, limp responses; and Hairtrigger Liberty and Smiley Fratboy Parsad for the following "insane!" posts:


I know these discussions can get heated, but I've never insulted you the way you are insulting me and two other posters on here.  You've been given your first warning.  Feel free to discuss, debate and argue.  But there won't be a second warning if you do that again. 

There's no point in throwing around words like "cognitive dissonance" when you are having difficulty comprehending "respect" or "conduct".  Cheers!
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on September 07, 2018, 08:46:26 PM
For some reason, this exchange within the thread reminds me of Lee Atwater, the architect behind the post-Watergate revival of the GOP Southern Strategy which may have inspired today’s tribulations (or derangements). Lee Atwater was the king of dirty politics, sleazy tactics and insults. Somehow, we are the product of choices and, for Atwater, the choice came early in his career when he went for successful manipulations of political campaigns. Some say that Lee Atwater was a good person and, in the end, he did try to amend. There is no need to have reached the terminal stage of a brain tumor to do that.

https://www.nytimes.com/1991/01/13/us/gravely-ill-atwater-offers-apology.html

Interesting because Lee Atwater came from the South and loved blues music and, early on in life, was part of a band who could have toured with Lee Dorsey, the New Orleans R&B singer, who would later record a song which started with:

Now's the time for all good men
to get together with one another.
We got to iron out our problems
and iron out our quarrels
and try to live as brothers.

The title is “Yes we can” and would submit that it is not a political song.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: bookie71 on September 07, 2018, 09:40:47 PM


Quote
No Liberty - you just keep throwing up garbage here.

Here is what American's care about: Jobs and National Security

That is what I want from my President - take care of business at home, take care of the people that voted you in, do what you say you
are going to do. And I don't care if you are not as eloquent as Obama. That is about it. Just do something!

Obama was a disaster, had 8 years and failed.

Trump is a huge success.

You can keep focusing on all your BS and PC nonsense. Most Americas don't care. We want the President to lead and get something done.
We have families that we need to feed and keep them safe.

For the "deplorables" it's real simple. The previous administration lost sight of that.
I am not an Obama fan, but don't forget the disaster he inherited (financial crisis, too big to fail, government motors, etc).  He also gave us 8 years of an expanding economy that Trump inherited and has rode for the past 2 years.  The tax cut will throw gas on it, but when the deficit hits it will bring back inflation (remember the Carter years).
When you say the KKK is a good organization, you are a deplorable no mater how much money you inherited.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: no_free_lunch on September 07, 2018, 10:26:06 PM
On KKK, his son in law and close advisor is jewish.. 

What happened was he didnt say the words you wanted him to say and you all are having a temper tantrum.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rb on September 07, 2018, 11:15:59 PM
No Liberty - you just keep throwing up garbage here.

Here is what American's care about: Jobs and National Security

That is what I want from my President - take care of business at home, take care of the people that voted you in, do what you say you
are going to do. And I don't care if you are not as eloquent as Obama. That is about it. Just do something!

Obama was a disaster, had 8 years and failed.

Trump is a huge success.

You can keep focusing on all your BS and PC nonsense. Most Americas don't care. We want the President to lead and get something done.
We have families that we need to feed and keep them safe.

For the "deplorables" it's real simple. The previous administration lost sight of that.
Well I think that may be what you care about, but it may be what all Americans care about.

Nevertheless, even just going by your own metrics: jobs and national security - Barak Obama was a fine president. Lots of jobs created, no majour attack on the US, and the feather in the cap: I got BinLadden.

Now you may not like the man. That's fine. But most of us here know how to read numbers. So statements like that tend to be an insult to our intelligence. Partisanship is ok. I understand it. But trying to create an alternative narrative and expecting others to believe it implies a belief that the others are stupid.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on September 08, 2018, 12:14:06 AM
Don't be too insulted Rb.

As for your own alternative narrative, I said Obama did nothing to help the economy - the US Federal Reserve gets the credit.
Obama retarded the recovery with job killing policies. He was the most anti-business US President of my life.

And his foreign policy was a joke, as he was a pushover and completely naive - thought his Nobel Prize would win him another.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Liberty on September 08, 2018, 05:39:56 AM
On KKK, his son in law and close advisor is jewish.. 

Trump's racism doesn't seem to be directed at jewish people, so I'm not sure how that helps.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on September 08, 2018, 05:50:18 AM
As for your own alternative narrative, I said Obama did nothing to help the economy - the US Federal Reserve gets the credit.
Obama retarded the recovery with job killing policies. He was the most anti-business US President of my life.

The pro-business sentiment is something to watch (small business and all) as it may lead to tangible results (fundamentals) in the long term.
Taking this thread as an example, there has been an unusual amount of polarization:
Is the President a genius or a charlatan?
Is he a huge success or an utter failure?

Perhaps data can help formulate the beginning of an answer.
https://macromon.wordpress.com/2018/09/07/political-economy-of-the-jobs-report/

My humble read on the situation is that we have pretty much more of the same and today's decisions may take a while to show up in the data. And for the monetary environment/experiment, we are only half way there.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: no_free_lunch on September 08, 2018, 06:15:30 AM
On KKK, his son in law and close advisor is jewish.. 

Trump's racism doesn't seem to be directed at jewish people, so I'm not sure how that helps.

No.   No.   Thats not what you or bookie said. You two made very specific comments about KKK.  Do you know anything about that group?  Do you just like to throw random words around to slander?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Liberty on September 08, 2018, 06:37:28 AM
On KKK, his son in law and close advisor is jewish.. 

Trump's racism doesn't seem to be directed at jewish people, so I'm not sure how that helps.

No.   No.   Thats not what you or bookie said. You two made very specific comments about KKK.  Do you know anything about that group?  Do you just like to throw random words around to slander?

I never mentioned the KKK. And the KKK isn't just racist against Jewish people. But I also don't believe Trump is literally a member of such an organization, just that he has clear affinities and is a lot less repulsed by them than most regular people.

Trump's reaction after Charlottesville was quite clear to all, so much so that Trump advisors like Cohn threatened to quit and the rest of the party distanced themselves from it and Trump had to backtrack (befit later doubling down).
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: no_free_lunch on September 08, 2018, 07:22:39 AM
So now its not that he supports them.  Its that he doesnt virtue signal enough for you?  Your argument keeps changing.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on September 08, 2018, 04:45:59 PM


Quote
No Liberty - you just keep throwing up garbage here.

Here is what American's care about: Jobs and National Security

That is what I want from my President - take care of business at home, take care of the people that voted you in, do what you say you
are going to do. And I don't care if you are not as eloquent as Obama. That is about it. Just do something!

Obama was a disaster, had 8 years and failed.

Trump is a huge success.

You can keep focusing on all your BS and PC nonsense. Most Americas don't care. We want the President to lead and get something done.
We have families that we need to feed and keep them safe.

For the "deplorables" it's real simple. The previous administration lost sight of that.
I am not an Obama fan, but don't forget the disaster he inherited (financial crisis, too big to fail, government motors, etc).  He also gave us 8 years of an expanding economy that Trump inherited and has rode for the past 2 years.  The tax cut will throw gas on it, but when the deficit hits it will bring back inflation (remember the Carter years).
When you say the KKK is a good organization, you are a deplorable no mater how much money you inherited.

Don't forget, the 8 years Obama gave us was the first President in memory that could not deliver 3% annual growth. He had 8 shots at it.
His growth was vastly subpar and supported only by the heroic actions of the US Federal Reserve.

In the face of the worst recession of my lifetime, Obama choose to tackle healthcare with a disastrous outcome.
It was easy to see - he should have focused all his efforts on the economy and joblessness.
He was naive, but always thought he was the smartest man in the room - and would listen to no one.

His legacy will be totally destroyed by Trump.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rb on September 08, 2018, 10:22:55 PM
For all of us uninformed netizens, please let us know point by point with facts and figures, not general statements, the disastrous outcomes of US health care policy.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on September 08, 2018, 10:45:38 PM
For all of us uninformed netizens, please let us know point by point with facts and figures, not general statements, the disastrous outcomes of US health care policy.

Rb- how much are you paying in HC?
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rb on September 08, 2018, 11:31:16 PM
Well cubs, you didn't answer my question. But as  goodwill here I will try to answer yours.

To be frank, I do not know how much exactly I pay for HC. The best I can estimate is that I pay somewhere in the 11-14k CAD range per year.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on September 09, 2018, 05:56:52 AM
Well Rb, to satisfy your curiosity about Obamacare with facts and figures - in all seriousness, this may enlighten you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KcR9YQ18IY

For others, the short version is: Obamacare is our President's shot at removing the free market from solving the health care crisis.
The federalization of healthcare did not reduce costs or improve access. That, I would say, is a disaster.

As a Canadian, you might disagree, but in the US, the private markets tend to solve large problems like this better than
our petty bureaucrats - it's just not the American way. Most times, when our government tries to legislate productivity,
it ends up badly.

It's good to see that perhaps our 8 year experiment may be ending.

I think I'll leave it at that.

By the way Rb, you are totally entitled to your own opinion - and I do respect that.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Spekulatius on September 09, 2018, 07:35:39 AM
As for your own alternative narrative, I said Obama did nothing to help the economy - the US Federal Reserve gets the credit.
Obama retarded the recovery with job killing policies. He was the most anti-business US President of my life.

The pro-business sentiment is something to watch (small business and all) as it may lead to tangible results (fundamentals) in the long term.
Taking this thread as an example, there has been an unusual amount of polarization:
Is the President a genius or a charlatan?
Is he a huge success or an utter failure?

Perhaps data can help formulate the beginning of an answer.
https://macromon.wordpress.com/2018/09/07/political-economy-of-the-jobs-report/

My humble read on the situation is that we have pretty much more of the same and today's decisions may take a while to show up in the data. And for the monetary environment/experiment, we are only half way there.

I have watched the economic parameters closely and it does not really seem that any trend line has been broken since Trump took over. While I agree that thr economy is doing better than it would have other wise, due to small business sentiment (animal spirits) and thr tax cuts (which improved discretionary spending, one can see this in retail and with restaurants), it’s not like a night and day difference. The economy was in good shape when Trump inherited it, and the slack in the kaber market was gone in 2015 /2016 and that why we finally see the wages creeping up as well (wage growth started to turn in 2015).

The government doesn’t make the economy, but enables it. The effects of any changes take years to have any effect and there is a lot of noise, so we will never know what would have been otherwise. My main concern as far as economy is concerned, is second order/ripple effect from an escalating trade war (1930’s style) and higher interest rates crashing the RE market and taking the economy with it. National debt (which rises faster now, due to tax cuts)  is also a concern, but not right now, since GNP is growing nicely, the debt can rise, as long as GNP rises with it.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: MarkS on September 09, 2018, 07:42:29 AM
Spekulatius

I would add another concern: that rising interest rates will significantly raise the interest payments on the national debt.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Schwab711 on September 09, 2018, 09:03:05 AM
Well Rb, to satisfy your curiosity about Obamacare with facts and figures - in all seriousness, this may enlighten you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KcR9YQ18IY

I think I'll leave it at that.

By the way Rb, you are totally entitled to your own opinion - and I do respect that.

I'm not sure the video says much about the issues. Some of the primary drivers of HC costs are uninsured or out of network emergency room use (charity care is a huge proportion of hospital revenue, which we all pay - I've read misuse of ERs accounts for 4% of HC costs. This is a behavior issue of a small % of the US). There's also drug prices, obesity/diabetes incidence increases, facility costs, and orphan drugs.

What I don't like about Obama/ACA: the FDA lowered standards of approval, increased orphan drug designations, didn't become aggressive with anti-Trump, and failed to prepare the country for the costs associated with pre-existing insurance protections. Premiums were declining in the years before ACA, which should have indicated folks were not prepared for or expecting increases.

Selection of issues around ACA outside his control: ACA partially depended on incentivizing Medicaid expansion, which should reduce charity care at hospitals and improve overall health. Generally, states that didn't expand Medicaid experienced higher premium increases. Uncertainty around whether it would remain law and misinformation around the law slowed program use. States didn't use federal funds earmarked for them which artificially raised prices in areas. Some states pushed for higher coverage requirements when ACA started so premiums look higher.

It's not anti-free market by nature. Its not anti-states' rights. Medicaid expansion leads to higher coverage and better pools. Each state regulates health insurance locally. MA has seen lower premiums in recent years. Their overall spending per capital is inline with foreign countries. The innovative states like UT, CO, and MA have great outcomes. KY and MS are performing poorly. Your HC experience has a lot to do with your age, your states population trend (basically your 55+ %), your Medicaid program, your job, ect. It's not just ACA and HC has been a federal issue for 30+ years.

Finally, the increase in employment and the increase in insured workers led to worse pools for ACA than expected. Private insurance premiums have not increased anywhere near as quickly as ACA policies.

I'm not saying ACA is perfect but some political wanted to show it was failing since the day it started. Like Obama or not, inflating HC costs doesn't help anyone. Congress did it to Trump this year as well (assuming this is not a pet policy of Trump).

I don't think Rush's videos are the best source on ACA. I watched some of the video and I didn't hear anything about actual policy details. The Federalist Society has good HC coverage if you want a right-wing leaning view of HC. They have a lot of smart folks on staff. They don't agree with my views but it's good info either way.

There's no perfect answer. Everything we've tried for 60 years has led to HC costs exceeding GDP. Making the issue political doesn't help us.

https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/Statistics-Trends-and-Reports/NationalHealthExpendData/Downloads/HistoricalNHEPaper.pdf

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/05/health/policy/05health.html

Maybe a HC whistleblower-like program that rewards individuals for identifying waste would help? I don't know how to stem the tide but ACA is just another HC program in the last 60 years. It's fairly successful relative to past efforts but terrible relative to expectations.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on September 09, 2018, 01:49:21 PM
Well Rb, to satisfy your curiosity about Obamacare with facts and figures - in all seriousness, this may enlighten you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KcR9YQ18IY

For others, the short version is: Obamacare is our President's shot at removing the free market from solving the health care crisis.
The federalization of healthcare did not reduce costs or improve access. That, I would say, is a disaster.

As a Canadian, you might disagree, but in the US, the private markets tend to solve large problems like this better than
our petty bureaucrats - it's just not the American way. Most times, when our government tries to legislate productivity,
it ends up badly.

I think I'll leave it at that.

Thanks for the video. Joseph Rago was (did you know he died at age 34, in 2017?) a powerful writer. He was against Obamacare for ideological reasons and often used constitutional interpretations to back his positions. His editorials on the FDA were particularly incisive. In light of this thread, interesting to note that, in the video (around the 40 minute mark), he alludes to a potentially better climate with future administrations that would allow to combine the "best of both sides"...

Schwab711's perspective is interesting but I'll take the question from another angle.

Simplified and incomplete but the typical/average Canadian family of four will "pay" about 12 000 CAD, through taxes, for healthcare coverage while the typical/average American family of four who is covered by the employer plan will "pay" about 28 000 USD, through direct premiums and through what is really forgone salary. Also, if one of the four family members gets sick, the US bill increases a lot through out-of-pocket expenses (deductibles and co-payments) and other "surprises". A lot can be argued from the above (costs versus benefits) but it appears clear that the richer you are (in the US, especially the top 10 to 20%), the "cheaper" your relative heathcare expense burden is for coverage. Individually, you have to decide if that is a good thing or not.

Rising healthcare costs above GDP have been a secular trend that transcends the Republican/Democrat dichotomy. These trends are a disaster in their own right and if you politely label the problem as a "tapeworm", it will eventually need to be addressed and I don't see how this can be done to meet the voters's expectations without the combination of best practices from all sides. ACA, in the long term scheme of things, represents moderate changes but does not constitute a break in the long and steady rise in the public portion of healthcare funding. Here again, as an individual, you have to decide if this is a good thing or not but if you don't, remember that there is an ageing current that is awfully strong.

In a simplified version, Obamacare tried to improve coverage and to contain costs. This is open for debate and there are many explanations with some self-inflicted injuries but an argument can be made that it failed, at least partly, on both counts and created its own set of unintended consequences (example, hiring practices for small businesses etc). However, I submit that to summarize the healthcare cost escalation failure to the 2008-2016 period is an over-simplification related to ideology and not rational analysis.

To tie in with the thread, ideological discussions are OK but, at the end of the day, constructive discussions have to be carried out between the different "tribes" in order to align incentives. My understanding is that President Trump has only a superficial interest in healthcare and have a hard time seeing (whether he had run as a Republican or Democratic nominee) how his negotiation style could result in constructive bipartisan discussions.

Of course, I may be wrong or deranged.
Edit: as a pre-emptive remark for what is coming from rb: I may be wrong, deranged or both.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Ahab on September 09, 2018, 02:05:25 PM
Unrelated to current discussion, it's surprised me over the last few months how Trump/Russia threads have come to dominate this message board. Unfortunately, there's no triple leveraged ETF with exposure to the frequency of this conversational topic. Wishing all political merry-goers a pleasant Sunday.  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on September 09, 2018, 02:10:03 PM
Cigar - I think that is very good input and analysis. My overall point regarding Obamacare is that it did not come close to fulfilling the objectives
that the President sold to the American people: Your cost will go down, Your access will improve, and You will keep your doctor.
I just think it failed.  We will see what happens with Trump and if there is the stomach to address this.

But, my real issue is simple: with an awful recession in play, the President used all his political capital to push a poorly designed Obamacare upon us.
His first objective should have been deal with the recession with 100% of his political capital - get people back to work & don't strangle
private enterprise.  This was very obvious to me, even on day 1 - why is he doing this?

My answer is Obama, while brilliant, was naive and would not listen to the people that elected him - and he should have.
When you have a crisis going on, deal with the crisis - not your pet project.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on September 09, 2018, 02:58:12 PM



Joseph Rago was (did you know he died at age 34, in 2017?) a powerful writer.

BTW - thanks for this - I had no idea, how awful. What a loss.

I thought I might pass this on to anyone with interest from a top investigative reporter in DC. 
Particularly if you are Canadian, you may not realize what a swamp DC really is. Whether you believe or not is your choice.
I tend to think if you live in Canada that you don't. You are all smart guys - but their is a filter in this country of fake news and bias.

And, I myself, know nothing and have no understanding of Canadian politics - so I hope for your sake, it's nothing like the civil war we
have going on in this country, dividing our nation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU7epeM1wkg

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Spekulatius on September 10, 2018, 04:01:34 AM
LT Health care cost Trends:
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-spending-healthcare-changed-time/#item-health-spending-growth-slowed-now-pace-economic-growth_2017 (https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-spending-healthcare-changed-time/#item-health-spending-growth-slowed-now-pace-economic-growth_2017)

Looks like the culprit are large divergent (relative to GNP growth) increases in the 1980’s and 2000’s, both under a republican president watch, unless the data is incorrect.

I agree that Obamacare has failed, but I have not seen a credulous new approach either. A better job market helps, but isn’t really a solution either. I have been hearing claims that other countries have a free ride on US health care R&D, which IMO is counterproductive and far fetched anyways.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: LC on September 11, 2018, 11:01:57 AM
Spekulatius

I would add another concern: that rising interest rates will significantly raise the interest payments on the national debt.

Yes, and to add to your concern, the defecit jumped 32% YoY to ~900B

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/406040-federal-deficit-soars-32-percent-to-895b



Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: bookie71 on September 11, 2018, 11:58:31 AM
Quote
Quote from: MarkS on September 09, 2018, 07:42:29 AM
Spekulatius

I would add another concern: that rising interest rates will significantly raise the interest payments on the national debt.

Yes, and to add to your concern, the defecit jumped 32% YoY to ~900B

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/406040-federal-deficit-soars-32-percent-to-895b





AND then along will come the most vicious tax of all - inflation (I'm old enough to remember  27 cent a gallon gas and interest rates on savings of 18%)
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: meiroy on September 11, 2018, 06:24:36 PM

I've been watching the Kavanaugh confirmation hearing and it was absolutely fascinating.  I was not aware up until now just how corrupt the political and judiciary systems are and have been for a long time now. 
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on September 11, 2018, 06:46:02 PM

I've been watching the Kavanaugh confirmation hearing and it was absolutely fascinating.  I was not aware up until now just how corrupt the political and judiciary systems are and have been for a long time now.

Well, good to see an open mind on CoFB - I wished I could have watched.
But if you think there is corruption - watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU7epeM1wkg

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rkbabang on September 12, 2018, 05:14:31 AM
I don’t recall ever hearing of someone shooting themselves because they didn’t like Obama. Or any other president for that matter.  If you can’t see that there is something different and extreme going on, it is because you are not allowing yourself to see it.

Las Vegas professor shot himself in arm to protest Trump
https://www.reviewjournal.com/crime/shootings/report-las-vegas-professor-shot-himself-in-arm-to-protest-trump/
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on September 12, 2018, 05:44:35 PM
I've been watching the Kavanaugh confirmation hearing and it was absolutely fascinating.  I was not aware up until now just how corrupt the political and judiciary systems are and have been for a long time now.
meiroy,
I've learned to respect your posts.
I wonder if you could elaborate here and explain what you mean by a long time.

An argument can be made that we may be going through an unusual juncture and somehow, through trial and error, trying to come the other side and this environment gives rise to an unusual amount of tension and derangement. My humble read of history is that, when these episodes happen, segments of the population can be nostalgic and may want to go back in time and reconnect with the previous "order" when, in fact, we are building a renewed sense of purpose.

As you may know, judicial selection and confirmation procedures vary in different countries and there is no perfect system. The US version, specifically, has the potential to look like a circus.

However, for this specific topic, even if some aspects have changed, I would offer the opinion that the more it changes, the more it's the same.
https://ilr.law.uiowa.edu/assets/Uploads/ILR-100-2-GerhardtStein.pdf

If pressed for time, the conclusion of this work dealing with lower courts and the longing for a Golden Era can be found on page 65, and the following quote gets the gist of it:

"The nature of the considerations influencing judicial selection have changed because the issues, technology, the courts’ dockets, the prestige of serving in the federal judiciary, and the times themselves have changed. But, to no surprise, when all is said and done, politics or political considerations have played a significant role in a process that the Constitution explicitly placed under the control of the nation’s political leaders. Politics, in other words, has always, in one form or another, influenced the selection of lower court judges in this country."

GDP per capita has been multiplied by +/- 25 to 30 since then.
Hope that makes you feel better.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: meiroy on September 12, 2018, 06:20:41 PM
I've been watching the Kavanaugh confirmation hearing and it was absolutely fascinating.  I was not aware up until now just how corrupt the political and judiciary systems are and have been for a long time now.
meiroy,
I've learned to respect your posts.
I wonder if you could elaborate here and explain what you mean by a long time.

An argument can be made that we may be going through an unusual juncture and somehow, through trial and error, trying to come the other side and this environment gives rise to an unusual amount of tension and derangement. My humble read of history is that, when these episodes happen, segments of the population can be nostalgic and may want to go back in time and reconnect with the previous "order" when, in fact, we are building a renewed sense of purpose.

As you may know, judicial selection and confirmation procedures vary in different countries and there is no perfect system. The US version, specifically, has the potential to look like a circus.

However, for this specific topic, even if some aspects have changed, I would offer the opinion that the more it changes, the more it's the same.
https://ilr.law.uiowa.edu/assets/Uploads/ILR-100-2-GerhardtStein.pdf

If pressed for time, the conclusion of this work dealing with lower courts and the longing for a Golden Era can be found on page 65, and the following quote gets the gist of it:

"The nature of the considerations influencing judicial selection have changed because the issues, technology, the courts’ dockets, the prestige of serving in the federal judiciary, and the times themselves have changed. But, to no surprise, when all is said and done, politics or political considerations have played a significant role in a process that the Constitution explicitly placed under the control of the nation’s political leaders. Politics, in other words, has always, in one form or another, influenced the selection of lower court judges in this country."

GDP per capita has been multiplied by +/- 25 to 30 since then.
Hope that makes you feel better.

OK, you writing that makes me question your judgement.  Talking out of my butt is a hobby. (I'm going to be on the next season of America's Got Talent).

"Politics, in other words, has always, in one form or another, influenced the selection of lower court judges in this country".

Absolutely.  And politicians are simply agents, there mostly for themselves. This is why it's so important to get the infrastructure, the constitution, correctly from the beginning. In the past few decades, the system has been corrupted even more thanks to the development of behavioral science and manipulation via the media.  It is now scientifically known how to manipulate people, something that was previously left to charismatic people. Trump might have a Borderline Personality Disorder so we should not expect much from him, but what about all the agents surrounding him?

Anyhow, thank you for your detailed reply and your link.  I'm feeling fine. I'm white and got money so I can buy my justice and private health care. (this is not aimed at you, that's how it is).

Anyhow #2 past week there seems to be some change going around.  Trump is going to face some tougher hurdles and that might change his circle of agents. We'll see.


Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cubsfan on September 15, 2018, 07:21:01 AM
For those of you that truly have an open and objective mind on economic issues - you may find this short clip insightful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL-XB7rw4OM

We all talk about TDS - but I hope we are all really trying to get to the truth about what is best for this country.

The media is such a powerful force in distorting what is really happening, that it is not surprising some people have their minds made up.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Cigarbutt on September 15, 2018, 10:44:35 AM
For those of you that truly have an open and objective mind on economic issues - you may find this short clip insightful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL-XB7rw4OM

We all talk about TDS - but I hope we are all really trying to get to the truth about what is best for this country.

The media is such a powerful force in distorting what is really happening, that it is not surprising some people have their minds made up.

That was short and helpful.
Despite the info presented, would say that the jury is still out and IMO Mr. Hassett doesn't appear free of bias.

If you look at longer-term trend lines (FRED data), the breaks in the trends become MUCH less apparent and convincing.
Also, there may be a host of factors in play.
https://www.npr.org/2018/09/12/646708799/fact-check-who-gets-credit-for-the-booming-u-s-economy

In terms of sentiment however, there seems to be a significant and independent effect but I think it remains to be seen if this change will trickle down to higher real wages for the forgotten worker which is basically the premise underlying the thesis.

Another trend that is changing and which can be associated with the new administration is the higher growth of government debt, which, when put in ratios versus the items that Mr. Hassett describes, in a way negates the positive aspects shown. Many refer to the Reagan years when discussing trickle down economics but, in 1980, the public debt over GDP was 31%. Now it's 105%.

I would say there is less room to grow.

Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: cobafdek on September 15, 2018, 02:21:10 PM
How's this for a cognitive dissonance trigger?:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/09/15/dalai-lama-says-europe-belongs-to-europeans-and-refugees-should-ultimately-go-back-home.html
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Spekulatius on September 15, 2018, 04:49:16 PM
I don’t recall ever hearing of someone shooting themselves because they didn’t like Obama. Or any other president for that matter.  If you can’t see that there is something different and extreme going on, it is because you are not allowing yourself to see it.

Las Vegas professor shot himself in arm to protest Trump
https://www.reviewjournal.com/crime/shootings/report-las-vegas-professor-shot-himself-in-arm-to-protest-trump/

Maybe. But I think there are so many deranged people in the US (or elsewhere for that matter) and a lot of them have guns, that it is not surprising that this occurs.I think this one just got into the news, because it is associated with Trump.

We are lucky if they just try to kill themselves and not somebody else.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: rkbabang on September 15, 2018, 06:46:58 PM
I don’t recall ever hearing of someone shooting themselves because they didn’t like Obama. Or any other president for that matter.  If you can’t see that there is something different and extreme going on, it is because you are not allowing yourself to see it.

Las Vegas professor shot himself in arm to protest Trump
https://www.reviewjournal.com/crime/shootings/report-las-vegas-professor-shot-himself-in-arm-to-protest-trump/

Maybe. But I think there are so many deranged people in the US (or elsewhere for that matter) and a lot of them have guns, that it is not surprising that this occurs.I think this one just got into the news, because it is associated with Trump.

We are lucky if they just try to kill themselves and not somebody else.

Certainly tens of thousands shoot them selves every year in the US, but not usually to make a political statement.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Spekulatius on September 16, 2018, 07:29:46 PM
I don’t recall ever hearing of someone shooting themselves because they didn’t like Obama. Or any other president for that matter.  If you can’t see that there is something different and extreme going on, it is because you are not allowing yourself to see it.

Las Vegas professor shot himself in arm to protest Trump
https://www.reviewjournal.com/crime/shootings/report-las-vegas-professor-shot-himself-in-arm-to-protest-trump/

Maybe. But I think there are so many deranged people in the US (or elsewhere for that matter) and a lot of them have guns, that it is not surprising that this occurs.I think this one just got into the news, because it is associated with Trump.

We are lucky if they just try to kill themselves and not somebody else.

Certainly tens of thousands shoot them selves every year in the US, but not usually to make a political statement.

While this is correct, I believe it’s just a way to get more attention and apparently it is working.
Title: Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Post by: Otsog on September 18, 2018, 04:07:48 PM
I don’t recall ever hearing of someone shooting themselves because they didn’t like Obama. Or any other president for that matter.  If you can’t see that there is something different and extreme going on, it is because you are not allowing yourself to see it.

Las Vegas professor shot himself in arm to protest Trump
https://www.reviewjournal.com/crime/shootings/report-las-vegas-professor-shot-himself-in-arm-to-protest-trump/

No shooting, but this person carved the letter B in her face and claimed it was a big scary black Obama supporter.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1080189/Young-Republican-claimed-Obama-supporter-carved-letter-B-face-robbery-story-police-say.html