Author Topic: Truth of the matter  (Read 2196 times)

Parsad

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Re: Truth of the matter
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2019, 11:35:17 AM »
In economic terms, what the Chinese people have achieved over the last 30 years is unprecedented and extraordinary.
But China's access to the WTO in 2001 was based on the premise that, eventually, the regime would promote economic AND political liberalism.

China is moving away from democratic rule.
The US continues to be work in progress and it is still largely a free market democracy.

Rule-bending and rule-breaking is the name of the global hegemony game but I prefer democratic regimes.

No doubt and I fully agree!  But the Chinese people aren't the Chinese government...just like all Americans aren't Donald Trump.  Cheers!
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Cigarbutt

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Re: Truth of the matter
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2019, 05:37:19 AM »
In economic terms, what the Chinese people have achieved over the last 30 years is unprecedented and extraordinary.
But China's access to the WTO in 2001 was based on the premise that, eventually, the regime would promote economic AND political liberalism.

China is moving away from democratic rule.
The US continues to be work in progress and it is still largely a free market democracy.

Rule-bending and rule-breaking is the name of the global hegemony game but I prefer democratic regimes.

No doubt and I fully agree!  But the Chinese people aren't the Chinese government...just like all Americans aren't Donald Trump.  Cheers!
Whatever regime, there is always an element of complicity between leaders and constituents but the link can be tenuous indeed!

At least on this side of the authoritarian curtain (and thanks to you for the platform that you provide), we are allowed (pretty much freely) to discuss tough issues (investing or otherwise) and, for instance, would be allowed to compare our Leader to Winnie-the-Pooh (something which is censored in China).
http://danbyink.bangordailynews.com/2018/03/05/president-for-life/

Parsad

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Re: Truth of the matter
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2019, 05:22:13 PM »
In economic terms, what the Chinese people have achieved over the last 30 years is unprecedented and extraordinary.
But China's access to the WTO in 2001 was based on the premise that, eventually, the regime would promote economic AND political liberalism.

China is moving away from democratic rule.
The US continues to be work in progress and it is still largely a free market democracy.

Rule-bending and rule-breaking is the name of the global hegemony game but I prefer democratic regimes.

No doubt and I fully agree!  But the Chinese people aren't the Chinese government...just like all Americans aren't Donald Trump.  Cheers!
Whatever regime, there is always an element of complicity between leaders and constituents but the link can be tenuous indeed!

At least on this side of the authoritarian curtain (and thanks to you for the platform that you provide), we are allowed (pretty much freely) to discuss tough issues (investing or otherwise) and, for instance, would be allowed to compare our Leader to Winnie-the-Pooh (something which is censored in China).
http://danbyink.bangordailynews.com/2018/03/05/president-for-life/

Correct, but that's censorship by the State...not constituents.  And how can they freely be constituents when they have no democratic vote?

If Trump could, he would curtail some freedoms that the Constitution guarantees...it's not quite the slippery slope that American's imagine and can happen terribly faster than expected.

As long as our government is administered for the good of the people, and is regulated by their will; as long as it secures to us the rights of persons and of property, liberty of conscience and of the press, it will be worth defending. - Andrew Jackson

Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty. - Thomas Jefferson

Dictatorship naturally arises out of democracy, and the most aggravated form of tyranny and slavery out of the most extreme liberty. - Plato
No man is a failure who has friends!

DTEJD1997

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Re: Truth of the matter
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2019, 06:13:49 PM »
Parsad:

I am curious.  Which freedoms specifically would President Trump curtail that are mentioned in the Constitution?


Cardboard

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Re: Truth of the matter
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2019, 06:03:50 AM »
Sounds like paranoia.

-> Trump is evil and all that because he wants people to file papers before immigrating into the country but, unable to recognize that a regime has been responsible for 15 to 45 million deaths during the Great Chinese Famine. That record rivals Hitler and Stalin by the way.

Continues to act daily to hurt freedom (see the news on Hong Kong), steals our patents, secrets, doesn't follow WTO rules, jails our people, supports North Korea, seizes vast part of ocean, threatens Taiwan and all its neighboors, has re-education camps for muslims, oh and Tiananmen Square...

This ain't a friendly regime and yes, any comparison with Trump is absurd.

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Cardboard

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Re: Truth of the matter
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2019, 06:21:28 AM »
"d) first country to drop an atomic weapon on civilians.

I'm not justifying China's actions by any means. Being Indian born, i know China attacked India and still occupying Tibet. This is the corrupting influence of power. Power continues to expand until check mated."

While this was undoubtedly traumatic and a bad thing (never good to kill people), casualties were not much different than bombing raids over Dresden.

However, the shock stopped the war which was already extending 3 months after Germany's capitulation and there was no sign of a Japanese surrender without conditions. An invasion of Japan main island would have led to millions more death and a full destruction of Japan. This was part of the equation when the decision was made.

Also saved China months if not a few years of more agony with Japanese invaders.

"c) Not just threatening,  We invaded North Korea (at the request of South Korea), 2–4) we invaded Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos 4–5) we invaded Iraq twice, 6) Afghanistan, 7) in 1983 we invaded Granada, 8) we invaded Cuba quite unsuccessfully. And then there all the African countries that we ‘semi-invaded’ — under the guise of training and equipping (w/ lots of US boots on the ground): Algeria, Burkina Faso, Chad, Mali, Mauritania, Morocco, Niger, Nigeria, Senegal and Tunisia – not to mention operations in Libya, Somalia, Uganda, Kenya, Djibouti — that’s, let’s see: a total of 23"

You should check your understanding of history on all of these as there are many errors.

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shalab

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Re: Truth of the matter
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2019, 06:29:58 AM »
+1 - these topics are covered in 8th grade social studies in the US.

BTW, the decision to drop atomic bombs was a trade-off - millions of casualties (American + Japenese), years of prolonged war. Further more, the captured POWs were tortured as Japan didn't have the notion of surrender.

"d) first country to drop an atomic weapon on civilians.

I'm not justifying China's actions by any means. Being Indian born, i know China attacked India and still occupying Tibet. This is the corrupting influence of power. Power continues to expand until check mated."



However, the shock stopped the war which was already extending 3 months after Germany's capitulation and there was no sign of a Japanese surrender without conditions. An invasion of Japan main island would have led to millions more death and a full destruction of Japan. This was part of the equation when the decision was made.


You should check your understanding of history on all of these as there are many errors.

Cardboard
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 06:31:44 AM by shalab »

cwericb

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Re: Truth of the matter
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2019, 09:56:27 AM »
"d) first country to drop an atomic weapon on civilians."

Every freaking time someone trots out this crap it makes me wonder how people can make uneducated, ill-informed statements like this. Please study some history and educate yourself.

Yes those two bombs combined killed 100-150,000 people but it ended the war and probably saved at least two million lives.  But in one fire bombing raid alone on Tokyo (9–10 March 1945) over 100,000 civilians were killed and/or incinerated and you don't hear people even mentioning that.

Neither one of the atomic bombs killed as many people as the raid on Tokyo and the use of those two A-bombs at least ended the war and saved millions of lives. So were they used for good or bad? They hit Hiroshima and said 'stop the war or we will keep doing this'. The Japanese could have stopped it then, but ignored the warning. So three days later Nagasaki was hit and it ended the war.

It is just too bad people don't educate themselves to the whole story, but it sounds so much more dramatic to blame it on the atomic bomb.

End of rant.

Parsad

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Re: Truth of the matter
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2019, 06:02:25 PM »
"d) first country to drop an atomic weapon on civilians.

I'm not justifying China's actions by any means. Being Indian born, i know China attacked India and still occupying Tibet. This is the corrupting influence of power. Power continues to expand until check mated."

While this was undoubtedly traumatic and a bad thing (never good to kill people), casualties were not much different than bombing raids over Dresden.

However, the shock stopped the war which was already extending 3 months after Germany's capitulation and there was no sign of a Japanese surrender without conditions. An invasion of Japan main island would have led to millions more death and a full destruction of Japan. This was part of the equation when the decision was made.

Also saved China months if not a few years of more agony with Japanese invaders.

"c) Not just threatening,  We invaded North Korea (at the request of South Korea), 2–4) we invaded Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos 4–5) we invaded Iraq twice, 6) Afghanistan, 7) in 1983 we invaded Granada, 8) we invaded Cuba quite unsuccessfully. And then there all the African countries that we ‘semi-invaded’ — under the guise of training and equipping (w/ lots of US boots on the ground): Algeria, Burkina Faso, Chad, Mali, Mauritania, Morocco, Niger, Nigeria, Senegal and Tunisia – not to mention operations in Libya, Somalia, Uganda, Kenya, Djibouti — that’s, let’s see: a total of 23"

You should check your understanding of history on all of these as there are many errors.

Cardboard

+1 - these topics are covered in 8th grade social studies in the US.

BTW, the decision to drop atomic bombs was a trade-off - millions of casualties (American + Japenese), years of prolonged war. Further more, the captured POWs were tortured as Japan didn't have the notion of surrender.

"d) first country to drop an atomic weapon on civilians.

I'm not justifying China's actions by any means. Being Indian born, i know China attacked India and still occupying Tibet. This is the corrupting influence of power. Power continues to expand until check mated."



However, the shock stopped the war which was already extending 3 months after Germany's capitulation and there was no sign of a Japanese surrender without conditions. An invasion of Japan main island would have led to millions more death and a full destruction of Japan. This was part of the equation when the decision was made.


You should check your understanding of history on all of these as there are many errors.

Cardboard

"d) first country to drop an atomic weapon on civilians."

Every freaking time someone trots out this crap it makes me wonder how people can make uneducated, ill-informed statements like this. Please study some history and educate yourself.

Yes those two bombs combined killed 100-150,000 people but it ended the war and probably saved at least two million lives.  But in one fire bombing raid alone on Tokyo (9–10 March 1945) over 100,000 civilians were killed and/or incinerated and you don't hear people even mentioning that.

Neither one of the atomic bombs killed as many people as the raid on Tokyo and the use of those two A-bombs at least ended the war and saved millions of lives. So were they used for good or bad? They hit Hiroshima and said 'stop the war or we will keep doing this'. The Japanese could have stopped it then, but ignored the warning. So three days later Nagasaki was hit and it ended the war.

It is just too bad people don't educate themselves to the whole story, but it sounds so much more dramatic to blame it on the atomic bomb.

End of rant.


No one is arguing the rationale and that it saved lives...but it did open up Pandora's box...the Cold War...and today every fool who can get his hands on any sort of radioactive material can make a nuclear bomb, or at the very least, a dirty bomb.  It's like gunpowder or the Gatling gun...it becomes ok to use it.  And so far, in the history of mankind, only the U.S. was mad enough or had the balls to use it...view it whatever way you like!  Cheers! 
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gary17

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Re: Truth of the matter
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2019, 04:30:05 AM »


If you think that these people would hesitate for a second to reduce us to ashes if they were to find a new, absolute weapon you are clearly mistaken.

Cardboard

Yeah, they actually are not interested in anything of that nature.  Gain economic and military superiority...yes.  Wipe out the U.S....no.  That's your thinking, and the thinking of many who need to sit down and tell a psychiatrist what certain ink-blot stains look like to them.  There is something much deeper here in your heart! 

I've been to China, have many, many Chinese friends both here and around the world.  They are normal people like you and me, with the same ambitions, desires, and undying love for their family.  Are there issues with the Communist government, their tactics and suppression of free speech...yes...but we are seeing that happen in the U.S. as well. 

It might be surprising to some that the rest of the world is really not much different than here, outside of the handful of cabals, dictators and corrupt monarchs that rule in certain regions.  People by their very nature aren't very different.  Cheers!

The communist party cannot be trusted.  Taiwan is the Chinese government that the US should have supported.

The trade practices of China is just disgusting.  They copy everything, are rude and dishonest most of the time. Isn’t that why you had to let the Chinese manager go? He was probably filling his personal pocket